On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 11:23:45 AM UTC-7, Hovite wrote: > Offa, King of Essex, is an oddity. . . . in this case Offa is short for > Osfrith. His father was Sigehere, King of Essex, but his mother was Osgyth, > daughter of Frithuweald, King of Surrey, so the name Osfrith combined the > protothemes of his mother and maternal grandfather > Another Offa is recorded as King of Mercia, but again it is clear that his > full name was Osfrith, as he was the son of Thingfrith, and the father of > Ecgfrith You are leaving out Offa, legendary leader of the Angles. He appears in Widsith, Beowulf, and in the royal genealogies, while Saxo Grammaticus places him in Jutland (calling him Uffi). He is made son of Wermund son of Wihtlaeg, son of Woden. No -frith or Frith-. taf

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 3:39:01 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: > You are leaving out Offa, legendary leader of the Angles. He appears in > Widsith, Beowulf, and in the royal genealogies, while Saxo Grammaticus > places him in Jutland (calling him Uffi). He is made son of Wermund son > of Wihtlaeg, son of Woden. No -frith or Frith-. There was also an Offa earlier in the Sussex pedigree (note that this Offa appears in the earliest known form of th ethe pedigree, that did not trace back to Woden but instead traced to Seaxnet). Scholars have been unsure what to make of this earlier Offa - is it an attempt to interpose Offa of Angel into the Sussex pedigree, is it intended to represent a political alliance with the Mercians? It also comes from a stretch of names that do not begin with 'S': AEscwine, Offa, Bedca. The pedigree is 9th century, so the question is, was this earlier part of the pedigree in place during the reign of Sighere? Could Sighere have named a son after this legendary ancestor, rather than after his wife and his father? Or perhaps we are overthinking this. We know next to nothing about the female lines, so there could be an actual descent from Offa of Mercia. If he was named for the legendary Offa, we don't even know the origin of this Offa legend. If it was originally of Anglo-Saxon origin, it may have an Anglo-Saxon two-part root, but that doesn't mean that king Offa was given the full name (as Stewart suggested). Likewise, though, the legend could have been adopted into the Anglo-Saxon legendary package from another group, as was the case with Hygelac and perhaps Finn. If so, then there is no certainty that the name was ever Osferth. taf