Does in that era at times the Latin word "avunculu" not get misused in the meaning of greatuncle? In the 14th century in the dutchy of Brabant there are several examples known to me. Avunculus in that time and region was also misused for an paternal uncle (patruus). It seems that it kind of depends on the Latin skill of the writers. Can Dudo and Planctus be shown to misuse the Latin in other examples within their narrative? If one does not and the other does it regularly one could conclude which version of "avunculus" was more plausable. Or both autors ment the same but one of them used the wrong wording? Then again is there a Latin definition for a great uncle on the mothers side? Hans Vogels Op vrijdag 8 juli 2016 01:32:21 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart via: > On 8/07/2016 2:47 AM, taf via wrote: > > On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 8:31:30 AM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin via wrote: > >> On 7/7/2016 10:12 AM, taf via wrote: > >> > >>> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 6:36:56 AM UTC-7, Paulo Canedo wrote: > >>> > >>>> Well Rollo´s son contemporany Planctus states (without naming her) that > >>>> she was a Christian, and that her son William was born overseas. > >>> This was said about William's (generic) mother, not about Dudo's Poppa > >>> in particular. It is probably a mistake to assume that they refer to > >>> the same person. > >> For what it is worth, Dudo does state that Poppa was William's mother. > >> This is not necessarily inconsistent with the statement of the Planctus, > >> but it would also be wrong to say that the Planctus supports Dudo's > >> statements about William's mother. > > I didn't mean to imply otherwise. We have Dudo saying that William's mother was Poppa, daughter of Berenger, captured during a raid on Bayeux. Separately we have Planctus claiming that William's mother was a Christian born overseas. While there is nothing about these statements that makes them mutually exclusive, given the scant nature of the historical record and Dudo's inaccuracies on other points, it can't be taken for granted that Planctus was referring to the Poppa of Bayeux described by Dudo as being William's mother. > > > > > > The unwarranted credit given to Dudo on this has eclipsed an alternative > version from the lost annals of Rouen, as redacted ca 1220 at > Saint-Wandrille, according to which Popa was a daughter of Wido, count > of Senlis, and sister of Bernard whom William called his 'avunculus' in > a speech reported by Dudo ("Ibo ad Bernardum Silvanectensem, meum > avunculum". However, Dudo later switched in third-person narrative to > calling Bernard the uncle of William's son Richard. > > Whoever was her father, it is scarcely credible that Rollo would have > kidnapped Popa on a raid at Bayeux before the Normans settled at Rouen, > taken her overseas and then allowed her to baptise their son with a > Frankish name and raise the boy as a Christian. But Dudo lacked either > the nous or the self-discipline (or both) to confine himself to > plausibilities. > > Peter Stewart

On 9/07/2016 1:24 AM, Hans Vogels via wrote: > Does in that era at times the Latin word "avunculu" not get misused in the meaning of greatuncle? In the 14th century in the dutchy of Brabant there are several examples known to me. Avunculus in that time and region was also misused for an paternal uncle (patruus). > > It seems that it kind of depends on the Latin skill of the writers. Can Dudo and Planctus be shown to misuse the Latin in other examples within their narrative? If one does not and the other does it regularly one could conclude which version of "avunculus" was more plausable. > > Or both autors ment the same but one of them used the wrong wording? Then again is there a Latin definition for a great uncle on the mothers side? The vocabulary in Planctus is not at issue over this - the word "avunculus" was used for William's relationship to Bernard in reported speech of the former as related by Dudo, and a direct statement that William's mother Popa was Bernard's sister occurs in a redaction made ca 1220 of the lost annals of Rouen cathedral ("Mortua est Gilla absque omni prole, et Rollo duxit Popam uxorem, filiam Wydonis comitis Siluanectensis, sororem Bernardi, de qua genuit Willelmum"). Trying to reconcile the term "avunculus" as indicating both uncle and great-uncle in Dudo runs into another problem: both his account and that of the Rouen annalist or his redactor make little chronological sense in recounting the circumstances of Rollo's union with Popa. This was narrated by Dudo immediately following the murder of Renaud, duke of Le Mans, in the summer of 885. If Bernard was the brother of Popa who was of marriageable age at that time, then the siblings were presumably born by the 870s. Yet, according to Dudo, Bernard himself after 942 called William's son Richard his most beloved nephew ("nepos meus dilectissimus") and took to the saddle on his behalf, whizzing around northern France after the boy was abducted from the custody of Louis IV. This behaviour hardly seems plausible for a great-uncle of around 70+ years. It is also inconsistent with Dudo's unctuous efforts to pretend that William was born at Rouen after Rollo's conversion to Christianity in 911 or 912 and placed in charge of his friend Botho for baptism ("Willelmus ... Rotomagensi urbe exstitit oriundus. Quem genitor ... Bothoni cuidam ditissimo comiti sacro baptismate perfusum ad educandum commendavit"). The annals - as redacted in the 13th century - imply that Rollo married Popa only after the death of his purported Frankish wife Gisla, whom he married in 911/12 as a result of the treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte. This would make William too young to have succeeded Rollo when the latter retired from power - worn out by age and strife according to Dudo ("grandaeva aetate nimioque labore praeliorum consumptus") - implicitly soon after the culmination in June 923 of Robert I's struggle against Charles the Simple (although Rollo was still active in 928 according to Flodoard). The Planctus on the other hand, and far more plausibly, says that William was born overseas to a Christian mother while Rollo was still a pagan ("Hic, in orbe transmarino natus patre | in errore paganorum permanente, | matre quoque consignata alma fide, | sacra fuit lotus unda"). Peter Stewart