On Sunday, 8 May 2016 04:26:10 UTC+1, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 10:14:50 PM UTC+12, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > > The applicable part of Rosie Bevan's article I cited earlier in this thread is: > > > > "In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33 > > > > 32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992, > > Vol.2, pp.449-450). > > 33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18." > > > > She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton. > > > > Doug Smith > > I've been asked whether I can throw some light on the information about Maud de Neville in my article on the Longfords. I had reservations about the traditional pedigree and came to the conclusion that Maud de Neville must have been a daughter of Joan Deincourt. > > Joan Deincourt and Robert de Neville married in 1343 and Maud de Neville was married to William de Cantilupe by 1371. In the intervening 28 years it seemed chronologically unlikely that a son could have been born early enough to father a daughter married by 1371. Joan's mother, Maud Bugge, was under age in 1325 i.e. under the age of 14/15, so unlikely to have had Joan, (who I believe was the elder daughter since her sister Alice's marriage was not arranged until 1346), until around 1330-1331. This is consistent with Joan being around 12-13 upon her marriage to Robert de Neville and not likely to bear children for another few years. So any child would probably be born no earlier than 1345 and certainly no later than 1353 when Robert died. For a son Philip to have a married daughter in 1371, he would have had to father her at the age of 14, which seemed too much of a stretch. I think Philip must have been an elder brother of Robert de Neville in the light that Philip's wife Sarah died in 1344 according to Baker. If that is the case Philip certainly wasn't son of Joan Deincourt. > > Incidentally, the mother of the unfortunate Nicholas and William de Cantilupe was Joan, eldest daughter of Adam, Lord Welles (d. 1344/45). I didn't see this mentioned in Pederson's article. > > Cheers > Rosie Dear Rosie, Nice to hear from you. What sources are you using for Robert de Neville of Scotton and Joan Deincourt? I am unable to find any contemporary references to them in any of the published calendars or feet of fines, etc. The exact dates of death given in Nichols' pedigree of the family seem to be derived from inquisitions, but I have been unable to find any. Best regards, John

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 at 5:51:16 PM UTC+12, John Watson wrote: > On Sunday, 8 May 2016 04:26:10 UTC+1, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote: > > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 10:14:50 PM UTC+12, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > > > The applicable part of Rosie Bevan's article I cited earlier in this thread is: > > > > > > "In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33 > > > > > > 32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992, > > > Vol.2, pp.449-450). > > > 33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18." > > > > > > She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton. > > > > > > Doug Smith > > > > I've been asked whether I can throw some light on the information about Maud de Neville in my article on the Longfords. I had reservations about the traditional pedigree and came to the conclusion that Maud de Neville must have been a daughter of Joan Deincourt. > > > > Joan Deincourt and Robert de Neville married in 1343 and Maud de Neville was married to William de Cantilupe by 1371. In the intervening 28 years it seemed chronologically unlikely that a son could have been born early enough to father a daughter married by 1371. Joan's mother, Maud Bugge, was under age in 1325 i.e. under the age of 14/15, so unlikely to have had Joan, (who I believe was the elder daughter since her sister Alice's marriage was not arranged until 1346), until around 1330-1331. This is consistent with Joan being around 12-13 upon her marriage to Robert de Neville and not likely to bear children for another few years. So any child would probably be born no earlier than 1345 and certainly no later than 1353 when Robert died. For a son Philip to have a married daughter in 1371, he would have had to father her at the age of 14, which seemed too much of a stretch. I think Philip must have been an elder brother of Robert de Neville in the light that Philip's wife Sarah died in 1344 according to Baker. If that is the case Philip certainly wasn't son of Joan Deincourt. > > > > Incidentally, the mother of the unfortunate Nicholas and William de Cantilupe was Joan, eldest daughter of Adam, Lord Welles (d. 1344/45). I didn't see this mentioned in Pederson's article. > > > > Cheers > > Rosie > > Dear Rosie, > > Nice to hear from you. What sources are you using for Robert de Neville of Scotton and Joan Deincourt? I am unable to find any contemporary references to them in any of the published calendars or feet of fines, etc. > > The exact dates of death given in Nichols' pedigree of the family seem to be derived from inquisitions, but I have been unable to find any. > > Best regards, > John Dear John The pedigrees of Neville of Brampton and Scotton seem very conflicted and the information I have comes from a variety of sources - but the dates pertaining to Robert Neville come from Baker who seemed precisely informed. Robert's date of death is consistent with his widow Joan's remarriage to Sir John Ryvel by 1356, for example. Having said that, I've not seen a contemporary reference to Robert. I'm wondering if the Lansdowne document was the source of all the information, though looking at the BL catalogue the reference number does not look quite right. The focus of my paper was on the Longfords so I did not pursue the Nevilles to any great extent. Cheers Rosie