On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 9:47:26 AM UTC-3, Peter Stewart via wrote: > On 30/05/2016 10:24 PM, John Watson via wrote: > > On Monday, 30 May 2016 06:18:33 UTC+1, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > >> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-3, taf wrote: > >>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > >>> > >>>> Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri > >>>> --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis > >>>> vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for > >>>> this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia > >>>> Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) > >>> The text of this source reads: > >>> > >>> INNOCENTIUS EPISCOPUS etc. Dilecte filie Nobili mulieri ... Sorori Carissimi in Christo filii nostri ... Illustris Regis Scotie, salutem etc. Pium arbitramur et congruum, ut in hiis prompti simus ad gratiam, que profectum respiciunt animarum, presertim circa personas nobiles, que pura fide conspicue deo et ecclesie sunt devote. Hinc est, quod nos tue nobilitatis precibus annuentes, ut cum sex matronis honestis monasterium de Doberan Cisterciensis ordinis Zverinensis diocesis, cuius Nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit, bis vel ter in anno causa devotionis intrare valeas, eiusdem ordinis statuto contrario non obstante, tibi auctoritate presentium conferimus facultatem. Datum Lugduni XIII. Kal. Iunii, Pontificatus nostri anno quinto. > >>> > >>> https://books.google.com/books?id=ADxQAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50 > >>> > >>> taf > >> Many thanks for the info, Todd. > >> > >> What do or can make out of this document? Any insights? > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> JL > > Firstly, the name of the sister of the king of the Scots (Alexander II) is not given. Secondly we are told that her husband, B. de Rostock founded the Cistercian monastery of Doberan. Since the monastery was founded in or about 1186, she is more likely to have been the second wife of Borwin (or Burwin) I of Rostock, than his son Borwin II. The second wife of Borwin I was called Adelaide, and she had an only daughter Elisabeth (d. 1265), abbess of Wienhausen Abbey from 1241. > > > > This is stretching the sense of the text rather a long way - "nobilis > vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit" was written in 1248: > "maritus" (husband) without "quondam" (formerly), that is liberally used > in papal documents for deceased persons, along with "fundator existit" > (is a founder, NB in the present tense) strongly imply that B. of > Rostock was still living at the time. He was apparently enjoying > inherited founder's rights in Doberan abbey rather than necessarily > being its initial founder (monastic foundation pancartes that were often > presented for papal confirmation could extend the process over several > generations). The lord of Rostock in 1248 was Heinrich Borwin III, as > Hofmeister noted. > > Peter Stewart Thank you all. Then I must conclude that this marriage, if it happened at all, left no issue. Is that right? Thanks again. JL

On 31/05/2016 11:24 AM, J.L. Fernandez Blanco via wrote: > On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 9:47:26 AM UTC-3, Peter Stewart via wrote: >> On 30/05/2016 10:24 PM, John Watson via wrote: >>> On Monday, 30 May 2016 06:18:33 UTC+1, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: >>>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-3, taf wrote: >>>>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri >>>>>> --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis >>>>>> vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for >>>>>> this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia >>>>>> Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) >>>>> The text of this source reads: >>>>> >>>>> INNOCENTIUS EPISCOPUS etc. Dilecte filie Nobili mulieri ... Sorori Carissimi in Christo filii nostri ... Illustris Regis Scotie, salutem etc. Pium arbitramur et congruum, ut in hiis prompti simus ad gratiam, que profectum respiciunt animarum, presertim circa personas nobiles, que pura fide conspicue deo et ecclesie sunt devote. Hinc est, quod nos tue nobilitatis precibus annuentes, ut cum sex matronis honestis monasterium de Doberan Cisterciensis ordinis Zverinensis diocesis, cuius Nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit, bis vel ter in anno causa devotionis intrare valeas, eiusdem ordinis statuto contrario non obstante, tibi auctoritate presentium conferimus facultatem. Datum Lugduni XIII. Kal. Iunii, Pontificatus nostri anno quinto. >>>>> >>>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=ADxQAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50 >>>>> >>>>> taf >>>> Many thanks for the info, Todd. >>>> >>>> What do or can make out of this document? Any insights? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> JL >>> Firstly, the name of the sister of the king of the Scots (Alexander II) is not given. Secondly we are told that her husband, B. de Rostock founded the Cistercian monastery of Doberan. Since the monastery was founded in or about 1186, she is more likely to have been the second wife of Borwin (or Burwin) I of Rostock, than his son Borwin II. The second wife of Borwin I was called Adelaide, and she had an only daughter Elisabeth (d. 1265), abbess of Wienhausen Abbey from 1241. >>> >> This is stretching the sense of the text rather a long way - "nobilis >> vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit" was written in 1248: >> "maritus" (husband) without "quondam" (formerly), that is liberally used >> in papal documents for deceased persons, along with "fundator existit" >> (is a founder, NB in the present tense) strongly imply that B. of >> Rostock was still living at the time. He was apparently enjoying >> inherited founder's rights in Doberan abbey rather than necessarily >> being its initial founder (monastic foundation pancartes that were often >> presented for papal confirmation could extend the process over several >> generations). The lord of Rostock in 1248 was Heinrich Borwin III, as >> Hofmeister noted. >> >> Peter Stewart > Thank you all. Then I must conclude that this marriage, if it happened at all, left no issue. Is that right? > I have just read the article by Andrew MacEwan, who supposed that Cristina the mother of Heinrich Borwin II's son Nicholas of Werle was the same woman as the king of Scotland's sister granted permission in 1248 to pray at Doberan abbey. The case for this identification in my opinion is not made out adequately. The descendants of Nicholas (and those of his younger brother Heinrich Borwin III, whose wife may have been the unnamed woman in 1248) did not put forward a claim to the Scottish throne in 1291 when illegitimate descendants of William the Lion competed for it. I agree with Adolf Hofmeister that any marriage of a sister of Alexander II of Scotland to a lord of Rostock (whether or not the latter was living in 1248) was evidently childless. Peter Stewart