Dear Newsgroup ~ Nicolas, Siege of Carlaverock (1828): 356 discusses the troublesome issue of the parentage of Sir John de Cromwell, Lord Cromwell, who died in 1335: "Although Dugdale states that 'there is notable mention in our public records of this family before any of them became Barons of the realm,' he does not positively inform us who was the father of John de Cromwell, the first peer, but leaves it to be inferred that he was the son as well as successor of a Ralph de Cromwell who was living in the 35th Edw. I. It appears from the inquisition on a Ralph de Cromwell, and who, it may be safely presumed, was the person mentioned by Dugdale, that he left Ralph his son his heir, and who was then only seven years of age. Many reasons could be adduced for believing that the subject of this article was not related to the Lords Cromwell of Tatshall; but as the pedigrees of that house are confused and contradictory, and as the usual sources of information, Inquisitiones post Mortem, relating to that family do not regularly occur, it is impossible to throw any light on the subject, without very considerable expense and labour." END OF QUOTE Regarding Sir John de Cromwell's illegitimate son, Sir Richard de Cromwell, below is a record dated 1338, in which Sir Richard de Crumbewell [Cromwell] specifically names his father as Sir John de Crumbewell [Cromwell]. This record confirms that Richard de Cromwell was knighted, as I suspected. Source: Price, Yorkshire Deeds 10 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Series 120) (1955): 162. "446. Wednesday, SS. Simon and Jude, 12 Edward III [Oct. 28, 1338]. Release and quitclaim by Richard de Crumbewell, knight to Sir Robert de Clifford of an annual rent of 6li. which the grantor had from his father Sir John de Crumbewell from the farms and mills of Malteby [Maltby] and Staneley. Warranty. Sealing clause. Witnesses: Frank de Barneby, William de Reygate, John de Lacy and William de Leysyngcroft. At Lesyngcroft. (Ibid., B15, 2)." "Seal of red wax, diam. 3/4 inch: shield of arms, a fess, over all a bend. [Legend:] S' RICARDI CRVMWELL." END OF QUOTE. For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of Sir Richard de Cromwell, the illegitimate son of Sir John de Cromwell. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + + RICHARD DE CROMWELL (or CRUMBWELL, CRUMBEWELL, CROUMBWELL), Knt., of Wrenstede (in Frinsted), Kent, Bleasby, Nottinghamshire, etc., of illegitimate birth. In 1320 his father granted the reversion of the manor of Bleasby, Nottinghamshire to him and his issue; in default of such issue, the manor was to revert to the right heirs of John de Cromwell. In 1331, as “Richard, son of John de Crumbewell, knight,” he obtained a papal indult for plenary remission at the hour of death. In 1337 he owed John Elys, of Spalding, merchant of London, a debt of £20, on account of a loan. In 1338 he released and quitclaimed to Robert de Clifford an annual rent of £6 which the grantor had from his father Sir John de Crumbewell from the farms and mills of Malteby [Maltby] and Staneley. In 1341 Henry de Chalfhunte and Maud his wife sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Wrenstede (in Frinsted), Kent; Ralph de Crumbwell, Knt., the elder “kinsman and heir” of John de Crumbwell, Knt. was called to warranty. In 1341 he owed John Trippok a debt of £10. References: Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 353. Feudal Aids 3 (1904): 15. Price, Yorkshire Deeds 10 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 120) (1955): 162 (release and quitclaim dated 1338 by Richard de Crumbewell, knight, son of Sir John de Crumbewell) (seal of Sir Richard de Crumbewell: shield of arms, a fess, over all a bend. Legend: S’ RICARDI CRVMWELL.). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/326, image 194f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no326/aCP40no326fronts/IMG_0194.htm). National Archives, C 241/110/230; C 241/114/11 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Sheffield City Archives: Estate papers of the Copley Family, Baronets, of Sprotborough, CD/376 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).