Many thanks again Peter. I set out below an extract from the website, 'Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, Untitled English Nobility P-S', which provides certain information on the identify of Eudo's wife Rose. Does this assist in clarifying her identify? "... m ROHESE, daughter of RICHARD FitzGilbert de Brionne & his wife Rohese Giffard (-7 Jan 1121, bur Le Bec, Normandy[747] [Domesday Descendants, p. 400.]). "Eudo dapifer domini regis" founded Colchester St John, for the souls of King Henry I, Queen Matilda "...uxore mea Roaysia", by undated charter[748] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 1.]. Her parentage is confirmed by the undated charter under which "Rohais uxor Eudonis dapiferi" donated "manerium de Halingberi sicut dominus meus Eudo die qua vivus et mortuus fuit illud habebat" and land which "Gelebertus frater meus" gave her, for the souls of "Eudonis dapiferi mariti mei et Gilberti fratris mei"[749] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 48. ], which is corroborated by the undated charter under which "Walterus filius Roberti" donated "terram de teia" to Colchester St. John, for the souls of "patris mei Roberti filii Ricardi et matris mee Matildis et...Rohaise amite mee que ecclesiam Sancti Johannis fundavit et fratrum suorum", to Colchester St. John[750] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 165.]. The History of the foundation of St John's abbey, Colchester also names "Eudoni...major domus regiæ" and "Roasya uxor eius...Gilbertum comes, Rohaisæ frater"[751] [Dugdale Monasticon IV, Colchester St John Abbey, Essex, I, Historia Fundationis, p. 607.]. Other sources suggest a different parentage for Rohese. According to Guillaume de Jumièges and the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, she was Rohese, widow of Richard FitzGilbert de Brionne, daughter of Gauthier Giffard & his wife Ermengarde (-after 1113, bur [Colchester]). Guillaume de Jumièges names "Galterium Giffardum primum" as father of "secundum Galterium Giffardum et filias plures" of whom "una...Rohais" married "Richardo filio comitis Gisleberti"[752] [Willelmi Gemmetensis monachi Historiæ Normannorum, Du Chesne, A. (1619) Historiæ Normannorum Scriptores Antiqui (Paris) ("Willelmi Gemmetencis Historiæ (Du Chesne, 1619)"), Liber VIII, XXXVII, p. 312.]. According to the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, "Rohesia" married secondly "Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ" after the death of "Ricardo filio comitis Gisleberti" and that they were both buried "tempore Henrici primi" in "castrum Clecestriæ...coenobio in honore sancti Johannis" which Eudo constructed[753] [Dugdale Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire III, p. 269.]. The Complete Peerage says that this parentage is "probably erroneous"[754] [CP V 113-4.]. From a chronological point of view, the connection would be tight, assuming that the death date of Richard FitzGilbert is correctly estimated to [1090] and the birth of Rohese's granddaughter by her alleged second marriage, Beatrix, is correctly assessed at [1105]. This supposed different parentage is disproved by the three sources quoted above. Eudes & his wife had [one possible child]: i) MARGUERITE ([1080/90]-). The Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire names "Margareta" as daughter of "Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ" and "Rohesia", adding that she married "Willielmo de Mandavill" by whom she was mother of "Gaufridi filii comitis Essexiæ et iure matris Normanniæ dapifer"[755] [Dugdale Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire III, p. 269.]. According to the Complete Peerage, this genealogy is "probably erroneous" but it does not explain the basis for the doubts[756] [CP V 113-4.]. Marguerite's second marriage is suggested by the charter dated [1141/42] under which Empress Matilda made various grants of property including a grant to "Willelmo filio Otuel fratri...Comitis Gaufredi"[757] [Round (1892), p. 169.]. The only Ottiwell has been identified was the illegitimate son of Hugh Earl of Chester. m firstly ([1100/05]) WILLIAM de Mandeville, son of GEOFFREY de Mandeville & his first wife Adelisia --- (-[1116]). m secondly ([1116/19]) OTTIWELL, [maybe OTTIWELL FitzHugh, illegitimate son of HUGH Earl of Chester & his mistress ---] (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120)." (source: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_ftnref747) As per the consanguinity issue, I do not know enough to comment. However, your statement that you have not seen similar cases of 2nd cousins marrying in the 12th century (or dispensation provided therefore) suggests that Geoffrey II de Mandeville is unlikely to be the grandson of Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's wife. For clarity, Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's wife, is unlikely to be the mother of Margaret, dau. of Eudo. Assuming that the ancestry of Geoffrey II de Mandeville's wife Rose de Vere is more established and accurate (i.e. there is no error on her end which would otherwise result in them not being so closely related), is this a reasonable conclusion? Cheers, Pete

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 4:08:46 AM UTC+10, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: > Many thanks again Peter. > > I set out below an extract from the website, 'Foundation for Medieval > Genealogy, Medieval Lands - A prosopography of medieval European noble > and royal families, Untitled English Nobility P-S', which provides certain > information on the identify of Eudo's wife Rose. > > Does this assist in clarifying her identify? > > "... m ROHESE, daughter of RICHARD FitzGilbert de Brionne & his wife > Rohese Giffard (-7 Jan 1121, bur Le Bec, Normandy[747] [Domesday > Descendants, p. 400.]). "Eudo dapifer domini regis" founded Colchester > St John, for the souls of King Henry I, Queen Matilda "...uxore mea > Roaysia", by undated charter[748] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 1.]. > Her parentage is confirmed by the undated charter under which "Rohais > uxor Eudonis dapiferi" donated "manerium de Halingberi sicut dominus > meus Eudo die qua vivus et mortuus fuit illud habebat" and land which > "Gelebertus frater meus" gave her, for the souls of "Eudonis dapiferi > mariti mei et Gilberti fratris mei"[749] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. > 48. ], which is corroborated by the undated charter under which > "Walterus filius Roberti" donated "terram de teia" to Colchester St. > John, for the souls of "patris mei Roberti filii Ricardi et matris mee > Matildis et...Rohaise amite mee que ecclesiam Sancti Johannis fundavit > et fratrum suorum", to Colchester St. John[750] [Colchester St John, > Vol. I, p. 165.]. The History of the foundation of St John's abbey, > Colchester also names "Eudoni...major domus regiæ" and "Roasya uxor > eius...Gilbertum comes, Rohaisæ frater"[751] [Dugdale Monasticon IV, > Colchester St John Abbey, Essex, I, Historia Fundationis, p. 607.]. > Other sources suggest a different parentage for Rohese. According to > Guillaume de Jumièges and the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, > she was Rohese, widow of Richard FitzGilbert de Brionne, daughter of > Gauthier Giffard & his wife Ermengarde (-after 1113, bur [Colchester]). > Guillaume de Jumièges names "Galterium Giffardum primum" as father of > "secundum Galterium Giffardum et filias plures" of whom "una...Rohais" > married "Richardo filio comitis Gisleberti"[752] [Willelmi Gemmetensis > monachi Historiæ Normannorum, Du Chesne, A. (1619) Historiæ Normannorum > Scriptores Antiqui (Paris) ("Willelmi Gemmetencis Historiæ (Du Chesne, > 1619)"), Liber VIII, XXXVII, p. 312.]. According to the Genealogia > Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, "Rohesia" married secondly > "Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ" after the death of "Ricardo filio > comitis Gisleberti" and that they were both buried "tempore Henrici > primi" in "castrum Clecestriæ...coenobio in honore sancti Johannis" > which Eudo constructed[753] [Dugdale Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, > Monmouthshire III, p. 269.]. The Complete Peerage says that this > parentage is "probably erroneous"[754] [CP V 113-4.]. From a > chronological point of view, the connection would be tight, assuming > that the death date of Richard FitzGilbert is correctly estimated to > [1090] and the birth of Rohese's granddaughter by her alleged second > marriage, Beatrix, is correctly assessed at [1105]. This supposed > different parentage is disproved by the three sources quoted above. > Eudes & his wife had [one possible child]: > > i) MARGUERITE ([1080/90]-). The Genealogia Fundatoris of > Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire names "Margareta" as daughter of "Eudoni > dapifero Regis Normanniæ" and "Rohesia", adding that she married > "Willielmo de Mandavill" by whom she was mother of "Gaufridi filii > comitis Essexiæ et iure matris Normanniæ dapifer"[755] [Dugdale > Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire III, p. 269.]. According > to the Complete Peerage, this genealogy is "probably erroneous" but it > does not explain the basis for the doubts[756] [CP V 113-4.]. > Marguerite's second marriage is suggested by the charter dated [1141/42] > under which Empress Matilda made various grants of property including a > grant to "Willelmo filio Otuel fratri...Comitis Gaufredi"[757] [Round > (1892), p. 169.]. The only Ottiwell has been identified was the > illegitimate son of Hugh Earl of Chester. m firstly ([1100/05]) WILLIAM > de Mandeville, son of GEOFFREY de Mandeville & his first wife Adelisia > --- (-[1116]). m secondly ([1116/19]) OTTIWELL, [maybe OTTIWELL > FitzHugh, illegitimate son of HUGH Earl of Chester & his mistress ---] > (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120)." > (source: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P- > S.htm#_ftnref747) The trouble with evidence from Colchester charters is that many of them are not reliable - the cartulary was compiled in the 13th century and some documents were substituted in the 14th. In 1911 Armitage Robinson concluded that ' the compiler or compilers of these forgeries must have had a number of genuine documents, which, though insufficient for the purposes contemplated, furnished the necessary historical setting ' (*Gilbert Crispin, Abbot of Westminster* p. 166). The Clare family connection may be true, but evidence independent of St John's abbey would be needed to establish the facts beyond question. Simply quoting snippets from dubious charters without context, as in the Medieval Lands database above, gives a false impression of certainty. The fact that the charter of Rohese does not call her brother Gilbert 'count' as in the foundation history, and the charter of Walter fitz Robert calling her his 'amita', suggest that these may be genuine documents, but these two sidelights are short of conclusive. > As per the consanguinity issue, I do not know enough to comment. > However, your statement that you have not seen similar cases of 2nd > cousins marrying in the 12th century (or dispensation provided > therefore) suggests that Geoffrey II de Mandeville is unlikely to be > the grandson of Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's > wife. For clarity, Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's > wife, is unlikely to be the mother of Margaret, dau. of Eudo. The possibility of Geoffrey de Mandeville taking his rights to Eudo's estates and dapiferate from a collateral relationship rather than direct descent is very limited. Eudo had several brothers: of these, Adam is excluded as the maternal grandfather of Geoffrey since Eudo was his heir; Robert was a bishop; Hubert had male heirs of his own. The only one left who could have been Geoffrey's grandfather, giving him seniority as Eudo's heir, was Radulf, castellan of Nottingham - but in that case, why wasn't his castellany part of the inheritance that Geoffrey was entitled to? > Assuming that the ancestry of Geoffrey II de Mandeville's wife Rose de > Vere is more established and accurate (i.e. there is no error on her end > which would otherwise result in them not being so closely related), is > this a reasonable conclusion? Rohese de Vere's brother William, bishop of Hereford & chancellor, described their mother as 'Adeliza, filia Gilberti de Clare', so there is not much room for error there. I think your caution about Geoffrey de Mandeville's maternal grandmother is warranted, and Keats-Rohan's unqualified assertion is too strong - without further evidence it is probably impossible to resolve this. Peter Stewart

Hi Peter, Many thanks for your time and valuable insight. It have learned a considerable amount and it has clarified the issues discussed. Your contribution and assistance is certainly appreciated. Cheers, Pete

Near Liz & Dan's, where Barbara meets Jennifer.  A 2-mile interpretive loop along a crep.  Very pretty. From: Peter G. M. Dale via <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Eudo Dapifer and Rose fitz Richard de Clare Many thanks again Peter. I set out below an extract from the website, 'Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands - A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, Untitled English Nobility P-S', which provides certain information on the identify of Eudo's wife Rose. Does this assist in clarifying her identify? "... m ROHESE, daughter of RICHARD FitzGilbert de Brionne & his wife Rohese Giffard (-7 Jan 1121, bur Le Bec, Normandy[747] [Domesday Descendants, p. 400.]).  "Eudo dapifer domini regis" founded Colchester St John, for the souls of King Henry I, Queen Matilda "...uxore mea Roaysia", by undated charter[748] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 1.].  Her parentage is confirmed by the undated charter under which "Rohais uxor Eudonis dapiferi" donated "manerium de Halingberi sicut dominus meus Eudo die qua vivus et mortuus fuit illud habebat" and land which "Gelebertus frater meus" gave her, for the souls of "Eudonis dapiferi mariti mei et Gilberti fratris mei"[749] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 48. ], which is corroborated by the undated charter under which  "Walterus filius Roberti" donated "terram de teia" to Colchester St. John, for the souls of "patris mei Roberti filii Ricardi et matris mee Matildis et...Rohaise amite mee que ecclesiam Sancti Johannis fundavit et fratrum suorum", to Colchester St. John[750] [Colchester St John, Vol. I, p. 165.].  The History of the foundation of St John's abbey, Colchester also names "Eudoni...major domus regiæ" and "Roasya uxor eius...Gilbertum comes, Rohaisæ frater"[751] [Dugdale Monasticon IV, Colchester St John Abbey, Essex, I, Historia Fundationis, p. 607.].  Other sources suggest a different parentage for Rohese.  According to Guillaume de Jumièges and the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, she was Rohese, widow of Richard FitzGilbert de Brionne, daughter of Gauthier Giffard & his wife Ermengarde (-after 1113, bur [Colchester]).  Guillaume de Jumièges names "Galterium Giffardum primum" as father of "secundum Galterium Giffardum et filias plures" of whom "una...Rohais" married "Richardo filio comitis Gisleberti"[752] [Willelmi Gemmetensis monachi Historiæ Normannorum, Du Chesne, A. (1619) Historiæ Normannorum Scriptores Antiqui (Paris) ("Willelmi Gemmetencis Historiæ (Du Chesne, 1619)"), Liber VIII, XXXVII, p. 312.].  According to the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, "Rohesia" married secondly "Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ" after the death of "Ricardo filio comitis Gisleberti" and that they were both buried "tempore Henrici primi" in "castrum Clecestriæ...coenobio in honore sancti Johannis" which Eudo constructed[753] [Dugdale Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire III, p. 269.].  The Complete Peerage says that this parentage is "probably erroneous"[754] [CP V 113-4.].  From a chronological point of view, the connection would be tight, assuming that the death date of Richard FitzGilbert is correctly estimated to [1090] and the birth of Rohese's granddaughter by her alleged second marriage, Beatrix, is correctly assessed at [1105].  This supposed different parentage is disproved by the three sources quoted above.  Eudes & his wife had [one possible child]:  i)          MARGUERITE ([1080/90]-).  The Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire names "Margareta" as daughter of "Eudoni dapifero Regis Normanniæ" and "Rohesia", adding that she married "Willielmo de Mandavill" by whom she was mother of "Gaufridi filii comitis Essexiæ et iure matris Normanniæ dapifer"[755] [Dugdale Monasticon V, Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire III, p. 269.].  According to the Complete Peerage, this genealogy is "probably erroneous" but it does not explain the basis for the doubts[756] [CP V 113-4.].  Marguerite's second marriage is suggested by the charter dated [1141/42] under which Empress Matilda made various grants of property including a grant to "Willelmo filio Otuel fratri...Comitis Gaufredi"[757] [Round (1892), p. 169.].  The only Ottiwell has been identified was the illegitimate son of Hugh Earl of Chester.  m firstly ([1100/05]) WILLIAM de Mandeville, son of GEOFFREY de Mandeville & his first wife Adelisia --- (-[1116]).  m secondly ([1116/19]) OTTIWELL, [maybe OTTIWELL FitzHugh, illegitimate son of HUGH Earl of Chester & his mistress ---] (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120)." (source:  http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_ftnref747) As per the consanguinity issue, I do not know enough to comment.  However, your statement that you have not seen similar cases of 2nd cousins marrying in the 12th century (or dispensation provided therefore) suggests that Geoffrey II de Mandeville is unlikely to be the grandson of Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's wife.  For clarity, Rose fitz Richard de Clare, even if she was Eudo's wife, is unlikely to be the mother of Margaret, dau. of Eudo. Assuming that the ancestry of Geoffrey II de Mandeville's wife Rose de Vere is more established and accurate (i.e. there is no error on her end which would otherwise result in them not being so closely related), is this a reasonable conclusion? Cheers, Pete ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message