I just came across an article that cites a 12th or 13th century continuation of John of Worcester's Chronicon ex Chronicis (CCCC 92 - this is sometimes referred to as the third continuation) that shows a descent from king AElla of Northumbria (d. 867), and on beyond Woden. The line given drops a century and a half, and the early part is flawed and made up, but the link to AElla is none the less curious. The line given is: Hyring Woden Wythgils Horse Uppa Eppa Ermering Bernac Ida Edelred Edelferd Oswy Egferd Alfrid Elle Edeldrida (daughter) Eadulfus Ossulf Aldredus Waldeophus Uitred Akdredys Elfleda=Siwardus Walteof This descent breaks down into four parts. From Hyring to Bernac is all made-up origin fantasy. From Ida to Alfrid the pedigree is presenting (with a couple of errors) the descent of the kings of Bernicia and Northumbria. From Elle to Eadulfus is the portion of the pedigree critical to the linkage, and from Ossulf to Walteof is fully documented from other sources. Part I This is not the royal origin legend of the Anglian Collection, although hints of commonality can be found. Hyring is called the first post-Briton king of Northumbria and I have been unable to identify who the author had in mind. As father of Woden, this is novel, since the consensus is that Woden was son of Frealaf. It is unclear if this represents an independent origin tradition or an invention of the author. The next three names reflect the Kent royal descent from Bede, who shows Woden > Wecta > Witta > Wihtgils > Hengest & Horsa, while this line jumps straight from Woden to Wihtgils. Uppa and Eppa both seem to reflect the Eoppa, who is father of Ida in the Bernician royal pedigree. (Alternatively, rather than being duplicated it is possible that Uppa represents Yffa of the Deira pedigree.) Interposed between Eppa and Ida in this pedigree is Bernac, clearly the same eponymous ancestor who as Beornic, Beornuc or Benoc, who appears farther up the Bernician pedigree. Part II The next five names represent the authentic royal pedigree of Bernicia and Northumbria, with Edelred (sic) representing Ida's son AEthelric; Oswy is Oswiu. Alfrid is Aldfrith, but he was illegitimate brother of Ecgfrith, his predecessor, rather than son. Aldfrith died in 704/5, while the next generation in the pedigree AElla, died 867, so there is a clear break here, and AElla is of unknown origin, although his name hearkens back to AElla of Deira. Part III Here is the crux. Eadwulf, claimed grandson of AElla, appears in the ASC and Irish annals along with his own sons Ealdred and 'Adulf' (? AEthelwulf, Ealdwulf). He appears as 'ri' or 'rex' although he is usually not names as king by modern scholars. These scant mentions provide no indication he was connected to prior kings. Eadwulf died in 913, 46 years after AElla, which is reasonable chronology were he two generations later. Part IV As far as I can tell, Oswulf is not documented as son of Eadwulf, and there are pedigrees floating around that instead make him grandson, son of Ealdred Eadwulfing, although it is unclear why this should be more likely than that he was son of Adulf. From Oswulf there seems to be general agreement of the descent the rest of the way down. Is anyone aware of a study that has addressed this descent from a genealogical perspective? [Neil McGuigan, "AElla and the Descendants of Ivar: Politics and Legend in the Viking Age", Northern History, 52:20-34.] taf

Sorry, got my fingers shifted on the keyboard: > The line given is: . . . > Uitred > Akdredys > Elfleda=Siwardus > Walteof The second name is Aldredus. taf

On 6/3/2016 4:40 PM, taf via wrote: > I just came across an article that cites a 12th or 13th century continuation of John of Worcester's Chronicon ex Chronicis (CCCC 92 - this is sometimes referred to as the third continuation) that shows a descent from king AElla of Northumbria (d. 867), and on beyond Woden. ... > [Neil McGuigan, "AElla and the Descendants of Ivar: Politics and Legend in the Viking Age", Northern History, 52:20-34.] Thanks for pointing this paper out. As you noted, the pre-AElla part is clearly fiction, but the part after him is not obviously false. It is surprising that this genealogy has not been discussed more. Years ago, I noticed a similar genealogy (lacking the earliest part, and with significant differences between AElla and Waltheof) in the Collected Historical Works of Sir Francis Palgrave (Table XXIV), but I never trusted Palgrave's work enough to investigate it further. Stewart Baldwin

Eoppa is not a real name, but a hypocoristic form of Eorpwine, just as Nunna is short for Nothhelm, Offa for Osfrith, and Eaba for Eadbeald, Eadberth, or even female Eadburh. Eorpwine as a father of Eormenric would fit the Kentish system of alliteration.

Pardon my ignorance, but is the Walthefo being discussed here the Walthefo Of Northumbria, who lived c1050-1076 and was executed by William The Conqueror? Peter D. A. Warwick

I realize that I said something likely to be interpreted differently than I meant it, so I will clarify in the hope that someone will see the clarification before putting this information into their database with my name on it. On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 2:40:47 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: > Hyring is called the first post-Briton king of Northumbria and I have been > unable to identify who the author had in mind. As father of Woden, this > is novel, since the consensus is that Woden was son of Frealaf. The clarification: the consensus among surviving pedigrees from the Anglo-Saxon and Early Anglo-Norman period is that Woden was son of Frealaf. The consensus among modern historical scholars is that Woden never existed as a historical entity, and hence he had no father. taf

On Jun 11, 2016, at 9:08 PM, taf via wrote: > I realize that I said something likely to be interpreted differently than I meant it, so I will clarify in the hope that someone will see the clarification before putting this information into their database with my name on it. > > On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 2:40:47 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: >> Hyring is called the first post-Briton king of Northumbria and I have been >> unable to identify who the author had in mind. As father of Woden, this >> is novel, since the consensus is that Woden was son of Frealaf. > > The clarification: the consensus among surviving pedigrees from the Anglo-Saxon and Early Anglo-Norman period is that Woden was son of Frealaf. The consensus among modern historical scholars is that Woden never existed as a historical entity, and hence he had no father. > > taf > because a given person is considered mythical, does not necessarily mean he does not have an equally mythical parent within a culture's legends. historicity is often irrelevant when dealing with these stories