On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 4:29:28 AM UTC+10, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote: > We can´t be sure the line breaks down we don´t have enough information > to say who is the mother of William but the genealogists seem to > support Millicent. Who are the genealogists whose support for Millicent impresses you? For at least 100 years there has been direct evidence in print that Richard de Camville married twice (his own charter for Jumièges, dated 1170, naming both wives). This supplemented indirect evidence long known that at least his eldest son Gerard was apparently too old to have been Millicent's son (her first husband was killed in 1143/44 according to William of Newburgh, whereas Richard founded Combe abbey in 1150 with the assent of his son and heir Gerard ("quod et feci concessu et favore ... filii mei et hæredis Gerardi"). The same charter refers to Richard's children ("pro salute animæ meæ et uxoris meæ, liberorumque meorum") but the only family members witnessing the donation were his son Gerard and his brother Hugo - from this it could be arguable that Gerard's younger brother William was perhaps Millicent's son, still a child in 1150, but any genealogist working after the publication of Dugdale's Monasticon who failed to consider the alternative is probably not a reliable authority. Peter Stewart

Em terça-feira, 21 de junho de 2016 01:10:54 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu: > On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 4:29:28 AM UTC+10, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote: > > > We can´t be sure the line breaks down we don´t have enough information > > to say who is the mother of William but the genealogists seem to > > support Millicent. > > Who are the genealogists whose support for Millicent impresses you? > > For at least 100 years there has been direct evidence in print that Richard de Camville married twice (his own charter for Jumièges, dated 1170, naming both wives). > > This supplemented indirect evidence long known that at least his eldest son Gerard was apparently too old to have been Millicent's son (her first husband was killed in 1143/44 according to William of Newburgh, whereas Richard founded Combe abbey in 1150 with the assent of his son and heir Gerard ("quod et feci concessu et favore ... filii mei et hæredis Gerardi"). The same charter refers to Richard's children ("pro salute animæ meæ et uxoris meæ, liberorumque meorum") but the only family members witnessing the donation were his son Gerard and his brother Hugo - from this it could be arguable that Gerard's younger brother William was perhaps Millicent's son, still a child in 1150, but any genealogist working after the publication of Dugdale's Monasticon who failed to consider the alternative is probably not a reliable authority. > > Peter Stewart Well the genealogist seems to be Edd Man do you ever heard of him.

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 5:41:59 AM UTC-7, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote: > > Well the genealogist seems to be Edd Man do you ever heard of him. Let's go at this a different way. Addressing whether Ed Mann is competent to reach a definitive conclusion on the question takes us a step away from the issue. Ay time it becomes a question of the genealogists rather than of the evidence, we are making it about modern peope rather than about medieval people. Rather, let's look at the facts themselves. When Richard de Camville died, his property went first to his son John, then to Richard's sister Isabel, and not to William or his descendants. Do you understand why this would lead some to suggest that William had a different mother than Richard and Isabel? taf

On 27/06/2016 10:41 PM, pauloricardocanedo2 via wrote: > Em terça-feira, 21 de junho de 2016 01:10:54 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu: >> On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 4:29:28 AM UTC+10, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> We can´t be sure the line breaks down we don´t have enough information >>> to say who is the mother of William but the genealogists seem to >>> support Millicent. >> Who are the genealogists whose support for Millicent impresses you? >> >> For at least 100 years there has been direct evidence in print that Richard de Camville married twice (his own charter for Jumièges, dated 1170, naming both wives). >> >> This supplemented indirect evidence long known that at least his eldest son Gerard was apparently too old to have been Millicent's son (her first husband was killed in 1143/44 according to William of Newburgh, whereas Richard founded Combe abbey in 1150 with the assent of his son and heir Gerard ("quod et feci concessu et favore ... filii mei et hæredis Gerardi"). The same charter refers to Richard's children ("pro salute animæ meæ et uxoris meæ, liberorumque meorum") but the only family members witnessing the donation were his son Gerard and his brother Hugo - from this it could be arguable that Gerard's younger brother William was perhaps Millicent's son, still a child in 1150, but any genealogist working after the publication of Dugdale's Monasticon who failed to consider the alternative is probably not a reliable authority. >> >> Peter Stewart > Well the genealogist seems to be Edd Man do you ever heard of him. > > Ed Mann used to participate in Gen-Med discussions - as far as I recollect, he was a diligent "gatherer" of information from secondary works rather than a "hunter" investigating primary sources. A search of the newsgroup archive should tell you if the question was ever explicitly raised when he was active in the newsgroup. If it was, I would be surprised if Ed had argued in support of Millicent as the mother of William beyond acknowledging this as an unlikely possibility on the available evidence. Peter Stewart