On 2016-06-15 21:47:47 +0000, Matt A said: > In addition to Ethelred II, Genealogics gives a line from Joan Langston > to Gilbert FitzRichard/de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont and therefore > Hugues Capet. Following up on its citations might be a fruitful lead > for further research. The line from Alice Freeman to Hugues Capet in Genealogics appears to depend on the proposition that William de Duston, paternal grandfather of the Isabel de Duston who married Walter de Grey of Rotherfield, was married to an unknown daughter of Geoffrey Wake, son of Emma de Clare and Hugh Wake. The citation van de Pas gives for this is American Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales by Gary Boyd Roberts and William Adams Reitwiesner (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1984), where it appears on page 143. However, in the 68th installment of his "Royal Descents, Notable Kin, and Printed Sources" column, subtitled "Notable Descendants of Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke, RD" (http://www.americanancestors.org/StaticContent/articles?searchby=author&subquery=Gary%20Boyd%20Roberts&id=641), Roberts himself states that Freeman's "Capetian line via, among other families, Wake and Duston, first posited by George Andrews Moriarty, Jr., and dependent on a stained-glass window inscription, is no longer tenable." I don't have references for either Moriarty's original proposition or for its disproof. -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@panix.com about.me/patricknh http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-4, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote: > On 2016-06-15 21:47:47 +0000, Matt A said: > > > In addition to Ethelred II, Genealogics gives a line from Joan Langston > > to Gilbert FitzRichard/de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont and therefore > > Hugues Capet. Following up on its citations might be a fruitful lead > > for further research. > > The line from Alice Freeman to Hugues Capet in Genealogics appears to > depend on the proposition that William de Duston, paternal grandfather > of the Isabel de Duston who married Walter de Grey of Rotherfield, was > married to an unknown daughter of Geoffrey Wake, son of Emma de Clare > and Hugh Wake. The citation van de Pas gives for this is American > Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales by Gary Boyd Roberts and > William Adams Reitwiesner (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, > 1984), where it appears on page 143. > > However, in the 68th installment of his "Royal Descents, Notable Kin, > and Printed Sources" column, subtitled "Notable Descendants of Mrs. > Alice Freeman Thompson Parke, RD" > (http://www.americanancestors.org/StaticContent/articles?searchby=author&subquery=Gary%20Boyd%20Roberts&id=641), > Roberts himself states that Freeman's "Capetian line via, among other > families, Wake and Duston, first posited by George Andrews Moriarty, > Jr., and dependent on a stained-glass window inscription, is no longer > tenable." > > I don't have references for either Moriarty's original proposition or > for its disproof. > > -- > Patrick Nielsen Hayden > pnh@panix.com > about.me/patricknh > http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php Well, okay, I've read all about the Wake Duston business. The line I posted, as far as I am aware, doesn't go through or depend on Wake or Duston. As I said, I'm working from the latest RD600 and there is a line from Louis IV through Sir John Throckmorton that extends down through John Neale and onto Jeffrey Amherst. If you stop at Sir John Throckmorton in that line then follow Sir John Throckmorton and wife Eleanor Spinney down through their daughter Agnes Throckmorton who married Thomas Winslow to their daughter Agnes Winslow who married John Giffard you continue to trace down to Alice Freeman. So if that line is not good, it must break down somewhere. But Wake and Duston isn't the break in this line because they aren't in it at all. So I'm asking where that line breaks down. Someone posted maybe William Camville was son of Richard Camville and his first wife which would negate the Rethel line back. Of course if that would negate it for Alice it should have negated it for Jeffrey Amherst whose line still shows up going through the same son William de Camville (m. Aubree Marmion)of the same couple Milicent of Rethel = Richard de Camville.

This line should be broken for both of them here. There are several discussions in the archives regarding Milicent of Rethel. See this one from earlier this year: Re: Ancestry of Jeffrey Amherst http://tinyurl.com/glu62ow Douglas Richardson wrote then: "Of these children, it would appear that the son Richard and the daughter Isabel (wife of Robert de Harcourt) were the only children by Richard de Camville's 2nd wife, Milicent de Rethel. This is deduced by the fact that Milicent de Rethel's lands at Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire (which she had by grant of her kinswoman, Queen Alice) were held after Milicent's death by the younger Richard de Camville. When the younger Richard de Camville died in 1191, he was succeeded briefly by his son and heir, John. It appears that John de Camville soon died without issue, and the lands at Stanton Harcourt reverted to his father Richard's sister, Isabel de Harcourt or her representative. Had Milicent de Rethel been the mother of the elder Richard de Camville's other sons, Stanton Harcourt would have fallen to them, ahead of Isabel Harcourt. The succession at Stanton Harcourt suggests that the younger Richard de Camville and Isabel de Harcourt were full sublings, and the only children of Milicent de Rethel by the elder Richard de Camville. " Joe >> Someone posted maybe William Camville was son of Richard Camville and his first wife which would negate the Rethel line back. Of course if that would negate it for Alice it should have negated it for Jeffrey Amherst whose line still shows up going through the same son William de Camville (m. Aubree Marmion)of the same couple Milicent of Rethel = Richard de Camville.

I wrote about this back in February 2003. In any case, it can be found by searching for Alice Freeman. When I talked with Gary Boyd Roberts, he said that the stained-glass windows weren't good evidence,The only stained-glass evidence I can remember are those of the church at Thame, Oxfordshire which related to the Quartermaine family, and didn't as I remember, touch on the Duston issue at all.But I have seen the identical line used for others.  So…….. I would recommend writing a Letter to Gary Boyd Roberts ℅ the New England Historical and Genealogical Society in Boston. He has retired, but they would probably forward it. If I get a chance, I will see if I can dig my notebooks on this line out of storage. Kay Allen    On Thursday, June 16, 2016 4:00 AM, Patrick Nielsen Hayden via <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> wrote: On 2016-06-15 21:47:47 +0000, Matt A said: > In addition to Ethelred II, Genealogics gives a line from Joan Langston > to Gilbert FitzRichard/de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont and therefore > Hugues Capet. Following up on its citations might be a fruitful lead > for further research. The line from Alice Freeman to Hugues Capet in Genealogics appears to depend on the proposition that William de Duston, paternal grandfather of the Isabel de Duston who married Walter de Grey of Rotherfield, was married to an unknown daughter of Geoffrey Wake, son of Emma de Clare and Hugh Wake. The citation van de Pas gives for this is American Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales by Gary Boyd Roberts and William Adams Reitwiesner (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1984), where it appears on page 143. However, in the 68th installment of his "Royal Descents, Notable Kin, and Printed Sources" column, subtitled "Notable Descendants of Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke, RD" (http://www.americanancestors.org/StaticContent/articles?searchby=author&subquery=Gary%20Boyd%20Roberts&id=641), Roberts himself states that Freeman's "Capetian line via, among other families, Wake and Duston, first posited by George Andrews Moriarty, Jr., and dependent on a stained-glass window inscription, is no longer tenable." I don't have references for either Moriarty's original proposition or for its disproof. -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@panix.com about.me/patricknh http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message