Another question from a "gatherer". Denis Beauregard, in his _Genealogy of the French in North America_ (www.francogene.com/genealogy/gfna.php, the full version of which is an excellent purchase for any monolingual English-speaker with extensive Quebec ancestry in their or their spouse's background), says of Baudouin/Baldwin de Toulouse (murdered 1214) who, in abt. 1196, married Alix de Lautrec -- said to be ancestors of the famous 19th-century painter and illustrator Henri Toulouse-Lautrec -- that "depending on the source, many parents are possible", and refers us to a debate in the La Chesnaye-Desbois 1867 <i>Dictionare de la Noblesse</i>, volume 11, pages 750-51. I've looked at this (gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5424948p/f384.image), but of course I don't speak or read French, more's the pity. Anyone who felt like offering a translation would certainly bask in my appreciation. What I do note from a fairly simple Google search is that lots of modern historians appear to take it as established that Baldwin de Toulouse was a son of Raymond V de Toulouse by his wife Constance, daughter of Louis VI, and thus a brother to the Raymond VI who had him murdered. Example: https://books.google.com/books?id=eTEj0T6u7zUC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=baldwin+of+toulouse+executed+1212&source=bl&ots=UbCjULBP5r&sig=SlTXBa-fgZKXj1wKKS_OVF5AAwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjswbnHgcvNAhWJ2D4KHYPJApQQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=baldwin%20of%20toulouse%20executed%201212&f=false Is this a case of something that was an open question in 1867 having been resolved in more modern times? Or is it a case of historians simply not paying attention to genealogists, and continuing to propagate a centuries-old assumption regardless of lack of evidence, or even evidence discrediting it? -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@panix.com about.me/patricknh http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php

On 29/06/2016 10:47 PM, Patrick Nielsen Hayden via wrote: > Another question from a "gatherer". > > Denis Beauregard, in his _Genealogy of the French in North America_ > (www.francogene.com/genealogy/gfna.php, the full version of which is an > excellent purchase for any monolingual English-speaker with extensive > Quebec ancestry in their or their spouse's background), says of > Baudouin/Baldwin de Toulouse (murdered 1214) who, in abt. 1196, married > Alix de Lautrec -- said to be ancestors of the famous 19th-century > painter and illustrator Henri Toulouse-Lautrec -- that "depending on > the source, many parents are possible", and refers us to a debate in > the La Chesnaye-Desbois 1867 <i>Dictionare de la Noblesse</i>, volume > 11, pages 750-51. > > I've looked at this > (gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5424948p/f384.image), but of course I > don't speak or read French, more's the pity. Anyone who felt like > offering a translation would certainly bask in my appreciation. > > What I do note from a fairly simple Google search is that lots of > modern historians appear to take it as established that Baldwin de > Toulouse was a son of Raymond V de Toulouse by his wife Constance, > daughter of Louis VI, and thus a brother to the Raymond VI who had him > murdered. Example: > https://books.google.com/books?id=eTEj0T6u7zUC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=baldwin+of+toulouse+executed+1212&source=bl&ots=UbCjULBP5r&sig=SlTXBa-fgZKXj1wKKS_OVF5AAwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjswbnHgcvNAhWJ2D4KHYPJApQQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=baldwin%20of%20toulouse%20executed%201212&f=false > > > Is this a case of something that was an open question in 1867 having > been resolved in more modern times? Or is it a case of historians > simply not paying attention to genealogists, and continuing to > propagate a centuries-old assumption regardless of lack of evidence, or > even evidence discrediting it? > > There is a misunderstanding somewhere in this: Baudouin who was killed at Montauban in 1214 was definitely a brother of Raimond of Toulouse whose parents were Raimond of Toulouse (numbering these men now is practically worthless) and Constance of France. Whether Baudouin was Raimond's full-brother or a paternal half-brother is less definite (he was certainly not a maternal half-brother). However, it is highly questionable that Baudouin married Alix of Lautrec, and even more so that they had any offspring. Philippe Zalmen Ben-Nathan in *Annales du Midi* 114 (2002) cogently proposed that the brothers Bertrand I and Sicard VI of Lautrec were actually sons of Frotard III, and that Alix may have been the latter's sister with no known posterity from a possible marriage to Baudouin of Toulouse. You can read or download his article here (and copy-paste from it into an online French-English translator), http://www.persee.fr/doc/anami_0003-4398_2002_num_114_239_2777. Peter Stewart

On 30/06/2016 1:30 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > Baudouin who was killed at Montauban in 1214 was definitely a brother > of Raimond of Toulouse whose parents were Raimond of Toulouse (numbering > these men now is practically worthless) and Constance of France. Whether > Baudouin was Raimond's full-brother or a paternal half-brother is less definite > (he was certainly not a maternal half-brother). This is a misstatement on my part - Baudouin was certainly the son of Constance. He was born in Paris in the winter of 1165/66 while she was there after attending the baptism of her nephew Philippe, and he grew up in northern France since Constance did not return to Toulouse (she was divorced from his father in 1166). Baudouin apparently went to Toulouse for the first time ca 1205, when he was around 40 years old. Peter Stewart