On 2/06/2016 6:29 AM, Douglas Richardson via wrote: > Dear Newsgroup ~ > > Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1292–1301 (1895): 294 makes it clear that Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, was still a prisoner in France on 18 July 1297. > > Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1292–1301 (1895): 303 suggests Saint John was back in England on 16 August 1297, when the king granted license for "Walter de Everlee to enfeoff John de Sancto Johanne the elder of the bailiwick of the forestership of Peinbere and Everlee, and of land to the value of 10 marks a year in the manors of Pembere and Everlee, co. Southampton, which he holds in chief." > > As to when Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, first appeared in Scotland, there is a long discussion of the English military efforts in Dumfriesshire by King Edward I published in the book, M'Dowall, History of the Burgh of Dumfries (1867). This book may be viewed at the following weblink: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=MD0PAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover > > On page 69, the author makes the first mention of John de Saint John in Scotland: > > "For the purpose of keeping it in check, Lord Clifford proceeded from Carlisle into Dumfriesshire, and devasted the country, putting many of its suspected inhabitants to death ... Soon after Clifford had finished his cruel mission, John de St. John became keeper of the district - his rule extending southwards to Carlisle and eastwards to Roxburghshire ... St. John, while pretty safe in the strong Castle of Dumfries, was liable to be every now and then alarmed by rumours of risings, true or false, against his authority. We learn from the wardrobe accounts of Edward I., that St. John was allowed forty caparisoned horses, the maintenance of which was 5 3s. 6d. a day; and that for his personal following he had a knight banneret, six knights, and thirty esquires, whose pay was from 4s. a day to 1 s. - large sums, though seemingly small, since their value with reference to all commodities was at least ten times as great as the same amounts at the present day." END OF QUOTE. > > The author doesn't provide a date for these events, but the book, Nicolas, Siege of Carlaverock (1828): 187 states that ""in the 25th Edw. I" [i.e., 1296-1297] Robert de Clifford "was sent with a hundred men at arms and twenty thousand foot from Carlisle to plunder in Scotland, and that after much slaughter he returned with considerable booty on Christmas eve." END OF QUOTE. > > The date of this raid is specifically dated to 1297, by Clifford, Collectanea Cliffordiana (1817): pg. 100. > > As such, presuming M'Dowall had his facts correctly stated, Sir John de Saint John was present in Scotland "soon after" Clifford's return from his raid on Christmas eve 1297. This time frame would agree with the Patent Rolls which suggests that John de Saint John had returned to England from France by 16 August 1297. Ho hum - does any of this baloney haphazardly derived from obsolete secondary sources appear in your published works? In light of Rosie Bevan's post today we can assume that it never will again, anyway. And from long experience we can assume that your readers will never find out where you learned the facts... Peter Stewart