On 13-Sep-17 5:49 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > It couldn't have been Enguerrand I the one excommunicated in 1049 he had already died at the time the Chronique de Saint Riquier records his death in 1045 and his burial at Saint Riquer. About the title Enguerrand II could easily have been joint count with his father. I suspect you found this particular misinformation in Medieval Lands, here: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfraamp.htm#_ftnref472 It says: 'The Chronique de Saint Riquier records the death in 1045 of "seigneur Angelran" and his burial at Saint-Riquier'. You may have missed discussions of Medieval Lands here; suffice it to say, the website is full of rubbish, largely because Charles Cawley is incompetent. In this case he has used a translation of the chronicle into French, and failed to notice that 'seigneur Angelran' is not Enguerrand I but his namesake, the abbot of Saint-Riquier who died on 9 December 1045 and was buried in the abbey. The relevant passage in the Latin chronicle is here (pp 215-216): https://archive.org/stream/chroniquedelabb00harigoog#page/n297/mode/1up and in the translation used by Cawley here (p 228): https://archive.org/stream/chroniconcentul00harigoog#page/n317/mode/1up. Note that the chapter begins 'Sepultum vero est sancti viri corpus' (in the translation: 'Le corps du saint fut enterré') and goes on to mention his successor as abbot, Gervin ('venerabilis ejus successor, abbas Gervinus', or in French 'Le vénérable Gervin, qui lui succéda'). This kind of plain statement is too hard for Medieval Lands to get right. Please be aware that you can't rely on a single word you find there, including 'a' and 'the'. You would be far better off deleting your link to the website and forgetting it is there. Peter Stewart

On 13-Sep-17 9:55 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > We do not know when Enguerrand I died, except that this was on a 20 or > 21 September. We also do not know where he was buried, despite his having been advocate of Saint-Riquier so that the abbey's chronicler Hariulf might be expected to record the fact if it was there. This silence is not by any means probative evidence, but if Enguerrand had died while excommunicated he would not have been buried in the abbey. Peter Stewart

On 13-Sep-17 10:16 AM, superpam8@gmail.com wrote: > I saw on TV, the Queen going to one of her properties, and the “usher” dressed in royal-type finery, knocked on the door 3 times with a brass rod and spoke very loudly, like a crier of the old days, and announced “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here”, then again knocked on the door 3 times and announced very loudly, “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here” and again a third time this was repeated. Whereby he opened the door and the Queen and her entourage went through the door into the room. Perhaps this is like the service performed by these de la Mares. Queen Elizabeth II is styled "Her Majesty", not "Her Royal Highness", and any usher who didn't know that would be shown the door before he could knock on it. Peter Stewart

On 13-Sep-17 5:49 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > It couldn't have been Enguerrand I the one excommunicated in 1049 he had already died at the time the Chronique de Saint Riquier records his death in 1045 and his burial at Saint Riquer. About the title Enguerrand II could easily have been joint count with his father. Once again you are repeating misinformation here without the courtesy of indicating where you found it. Please stop wasting time and goodwill in this way. If you don't know where to find or how to check a source, it is surely better to ask for help here rather than take a chance on whatever version of events you find online while covering your tracks. The chronicle of Saint-Riquier does NOT record when Enguerrand I died or where he was buried - it says that he died at an advanced age and was succeeded by his son Hugo, and that Hugo was in turn succeeded by his son Enguerrand, who first occurs as count in his charter for Saint-Riquier on the day of his father's (i.e. Hugo's) burial there (20 November 1052). You can find this real information here (pp 230-231): https://archive.org/stream/chroniquedelabb00harigoog#page/n312/mode/2up. We do not know when Enguerrand I died, except that this was on a 20 or 21 September. Peter Stewart

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 6:16:47 PM UTC-6, supe...@gmail.com wrote: i) Henry de la Mare (1195 d bef 1249) m Cicely Avenel(d by 1300), widow of John Muscegros (1232-75) s/o Robert Muscegros by Hawise Mallet. Henry DLM became a robber of churches and went to Bampton prison, escaped and was killed as a felon, although he was not tried in court. 1267 his lands were seized by the King. See Hurdcott at http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v35.pdf ii) > Pam Dear Pam ~ The source which you've cited above is London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 94. This record indicates that Henry de la Mare above granted his tenement in Hurdcott by Winterbourne [Earls] sometime in the period, c.1220-1236 to Bradenstoke Priory. The grant was made for the salvation of Henry and Cecily his wife. VCH Oxford 15 (2006): 18–23 confirms that Henry de la Mare who died 1236-39, left a widow, Cecily. Following his death, she evidently claimed dower in his property at Alvescot, Oxfordshire. However, Cecily de la Mare can hardly be the same person of Cecily Avenel (died c.1301) whose known husband, John de Muscegros, was born in 1232. In truth, Cecily Avenel's interest in Alvescot, Oxfordshire came by way of a grant by her son, Robert de Muscegros, who obtained the manor in 1276, by an exchange of property with Sir Thomas de Clare. For further particulars of the Muscegros family, you may wish to consult my book, Royal Ancestry (2013). Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear Peter, I thought Medieval Lands was correct so I thought I would only have to mention the primary sources now I realize I should have mentioned the website. About Medieval Lands I use it because it is one of the few internet genealogy websites with good citations to primary and secondary sources. About the discussions yes I had already seen them and I do know that a website of the dimension of Medieval Lands is too much work for an individual like Charles Cawley who is not an expert on the field.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 2:27:49 PM UTC-3, Re...@silvermoongroup.com wrote: > To add to the response from Leo van de Pas posting : My matriarchal family line extends back to Guillaume de Balsac. My family tree is available in MyHeritage under BROOKS family. My full name is RENEE LOUISE BROOKS and I live in South Africa. The family tree shows a detailed family line from Guillame's wife to present day - Sept 2017. I have DNA records to share as well from the matriarchal line. > Regards > Renee Brooks > > > > On Friday, April 24, 1998 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Leo van de Pas wrote: > > At 03:53 PM 4/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >Does anyone have this ancestry (or can point me to where I can find it) and > > that > > >of his wife, Louise, daughter of Jean, Seigneur d'Humieres? > > > > > >I know they are from the Armagnac and Bourbon lines. My guess is that at least > > >one of them is a descendant of Bernard, Comte de Pardiac, Vicomte de Carlat and > > >de Murat, Comte de La Marche, Baron d'Angles and de Peyrusse, Seigneur d'Ordan > > >and de Biran, Duke de Nemours and his wife Eleonore de Bourbon, Countess de La > > >Marche. > > For the d'Humieres line I could find nothing but a fair amount for the > > de Balsac line. I did find an d'Armagnac connection but not to the one > > you hope to find. Hereby an ancestorlist---where numbers are omitted > > I don't know the details. > > > > 1.Guillaume de Balsac, Seigneur d'Entragues et Marcoussins > > died 1555 > > > > 2.Pierre de Balsac, Baron d'Entragues et de Saint-Amand > > married > > 3.Anne Malet, Dame de Montaigu et du Bois-Malesherbes > > died after 14 December 1525 > > > > 4.Robert de Balsac, Baron d'Entragues et de Saint-Amand > > married > > 5.Antoinette de Castelnau > > > > 6.Louis Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > > married > > 7.Marie de Balsac > > died 23 May 1503 > > > > 12.Jean VI de Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > > marriage contract dated 27 June 1440 > > 13.Marie de Montauban > > > > 14.Rossec II de Balsac, Senechall de Nimes, Seigneur de Glisenove > > married > > 15.Jeanne d'Albon > > > > 24.Jean V Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > > died after 1449 > > 25.Jacqueline de Montaigu, Dame de Marcoussis et du Bois-Malesherbes > > died 1436 Moncontour > > 26.Guillaume, Seigneur de Montauban > > died 1432 > > married 1414 > > 27.Bonne Visconti dite de Milan > > died after 1433 > > > > 50.Jean de Montaigu, Seigneur de Montaigu, de Marcoussis > > born 1363 Paris > > died 17 October 1409 Paris (beheaded) > > 51.Jacqueline de La Grange > > > > 52.Olivier V, Seigneur de Montauban > > 53.Mahaud d'Aubigne, Dame de Landal > > > > 54.Carlo Visconti, Lord of Parma > > born circa 1357 Milano > > died 1391 (or 1403) > > married 1382 > > 55.Beatrice d'Armagnac > > > > 100.Charles V, King of France 1364-1380 > > born 21 January 1337 Chateau de Vincennes > > died 16 September 1380 Chateau de Vincennes > > mistress : > > 101.Biette Cassinel > > > > 102.Etienne de La Grange > > 103.Marie du Bois > > > > 108.Bernabo Visconti, Lord of Milan, Bergamo, Cremona, Lodi, Bologna > > born 1319 Milan > > died 18 December 1385 Trezzo (poisoned) > > 109.Regina de Salcalle > > > > 110.Jean II, Comte d'Armagnac > > died 26 May 1384 Avignon > > married 1359 > > 111.Jeanne de Perigord > > > > Sources : > > > > Kwartieren van Hendrik III en Willem de Rijke van Nassau, > > Geldrop, 1965, by G. F. de Roo van Alderwerelt > > > > The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, > > Edinburgh, 1977, by Gerald Paget > > > > Cahiers de Saint Louis, > > by Jacques Dupont and Jacques Saillot > > > > Europaischen Stammtafeln, > > J.A. Stargart Verlag, Marburg (Schwennicke) > > > > Hope this helps, > > Leo van de Pas Sadly, Leo passed away last year. He is utterly missed.

Includes Middle Aston (in Steeple Aston), Oxford; Winterbourne Gunner, Laverstoke, Wilts; Windrush, Gloucs; and Hurdcott in Winterbourne Earls. William Fitz Norman de la Mare (1048-aft 1086 )= Mabilia le Goz (illegitimate) d/o Hugh le Goz d’Avranches nicknamed “Lupus” Henry de la Mare [DLM] Huntsman; in 1130 Pipe Rolls in Oxfordshire Richard DLM (1108-1197). Perhaps he has another son Richard DLM. Henry DLM (d 1236-1239) m Matilda le Norays (See Feet of Fines) http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v01.pdf Either a de la Mare or a le Norays married Henry de Tracy who had a son Henry de Tracy. See Wiltshire Record Society, Feet of Fines for further details – page 4 1275 12. http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v01.pdf i) Henry DLM (1195 d bef 1249) m Cicely Avenel(d by 1300), widow of John Muscegros (1232-75) s/o Robert Muscegros by Hawise Mallet. Henry DLM became a robber of churches and went to Bampton prison, escaped and was killed as a felon, although he was not tried in court. 1267 his lands were seized by the King. See Hurdcott at http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v35.pdf ii) Gunnora DLM (1200-1249) (related to Henry de Tracy, her uncle,(not the one who helped murder Gilbert a’Becket) whose son Henry de Tracy is her heir) m Geoff Fitz William aka Geoff de Alfeiscot; IPM 185, 26, 38 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108006&strquery=winterburn https://archive.org/stream/indexlibrary3719brit/indexlibrary3719brit_djvu.txt (search Mara and Mare) https://archive.org/stream/indexlibrary372brit/indexlibrary372brit_djvu.txt ; iii) Alice DLM sister of Henry. i) Robert DLM liv 1293, (1234-1254) IPM 184 http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_035.html#it184_012; ii) John DLM (-1280) IPM #345 https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387804#page/n249/mode/2up ; held Alvescot at his death; 3 ½ virgates of Cicely de Muscegros. King Henry III granted Winterbourne to Edward his son. Robert DLM (b 1272) held Windrush in 1293; he was heir at age 9 ½. 1273 Robert Walerand had custody. William DLM liv 1327 paid 1s 6d or less; and in 1351 it was ¼ knight’s fee. See Cartulary of St. Mark’s Hospital, Bristol – Volume 21 by St. Mark’s Hospital, Bristol, England for the financial difficulties that Henry de la Mare and his family were in. Page 256. Winterbourne Gunner (mid Hy III bef 1262). It’s no wonder that Gunner de la Mare was confused and not sure who her heir was. https://books.google.ca/books?id=rD0SAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=%22winterbourne+gunner%22+mare&source=bl&ots=NCX87mfIKI&sig=tzQAjH0nC_jnVCFSnP5jygUHAxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH74OSmo3WAhVGPCYKHfFDCCgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=%22winterbourne%20gunner%22%20mare&f=false This was held by the hereditary serjeanty of being usher of the door of the King’s hall. See King’s Sergeants & Officers Cb Kings & Sergeants by J. Horace Round. Tells about DLM services at Alvescot, etc and The Usher of the King’s Hall (page 108) https://books.google.ca/books?id=zDssBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=%22Middle+Aston%22+mare&source=bl&ots=7HCtdOozrA&sig=nvdkurQG2pcq-WEOBW-pc_cbE70&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd0smgoo_WAhXk6YMKHWvGDAIQ6AEIVjAK#v=onepage&q=%22Middle%20Aston%22%20mare&f=false I saw on TV, the Queen going to one of her properties, and the “usher” dressed in royal-type finery, knocked on the door 3 times with a brass rod and spoke very loudly, like a crier of the old days, and announced “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here”, then again knocked on the door 3 times and announced very loudly, “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here” and again a third time this was repeated. Whereby he opened the door and the Queen and her entourage went through the door into the room. Perhaps this is like the service performed by these de la Mares. Sources: British History Online Feet of Fines Liber Fedorum – Testa de Nevill Pam

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote: > https://www.facebook.com/americangenealogist/ Thanks for posting.. It's nice to see that even after 350 years of research, the origins of 3! of the Mayflower passengers that were previously unknown, were able to be found in a single year. --Joe C

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 3:49:19 PM UTC-4, Paulo Canedo wrote: > It couldn't have been Enguerrand I the one excommunicated in 1049 he had already died at the time the Chronique de Saint Riquier records his death in 1045 and his burial at Saint Riquer. About the title Enguerrand II could easily have been joint count with his father. Paulo, we need to talk. I mean this with all the respect possible, and please read the following in the kindest tone possible. Since you have joined this group you have been very disruptive. Lots of misinformation sent, and lots of half-thought out questions posted. Take a breathe, and take the time to create a well formed well thought out post, with whatever sources are the basis of your question. You are wasting a lot of people's time right now and whether you know it or not, you are personally driving away some of the experts we have on the list because you are lowering the signal to noise ratio here greatly. No need to respond, just consider. Joe C --member of list for 21 years.

Hi Jay No unfortunately I didn’t get anywhere with my Martin HILL problems. I have looked at the WILLOUGHBY family several times, but still can’t find a link. Martin’s HILL’s wife was named Mary (from his will) and he mentions friends Sir Percival WILLOUGHBY and his wife Bridget, so I don’t think the connection is there. Would be really good if the link was through Sir Francis WILLOUGHBY and Elizabeth LITTLETON, because her ancestors include John of Gaunt, a member of the “famous” PASTON family and Elizabeth WOODVILLE, amongst others. Also IF Martin is descended from Roger HILL at Hounston, it looks like there might (also) be a royal descent there?? Are you descended from Martin HILL? Regards Jan Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: sinebeg@gmail.com<mailto:sinebeg@gmail.com> Sent: 10 September 2017 05:05 To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com<mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: MARTIN HILL of Asfordby Jan, did you get anywhere with your problems? I am in the same boat :) Regarding the Willoughby link - it may be worth starting with the families of the Patrons of Martin Hill and his son Francis: Lord Willoughby of Eresby and Sir Percival Willoughby of Wolloton knt Cheers, Jay ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It couldn't have been Enguerrand I the one excommunicated in 1049 he had already died at the time the Chronique de Saint Riquier records his death in 1045 and his burial at Saint Riquer. About the title Enguerrand II could easily have been joint count with his father.

To add to the response from Leo van de Pas posting : My matriarchal family line extends back to Guillaume de Balsac. My family tree is available in MyHeritage under BROOKS family. My full name is RENEE LOUISE BROOKS and I live in South Africa. The family tree shows a detailed family line from Guillame's wife to present day - Sept 2017. I have DNA records to share as well from the matriarchal line. Regards Renee Brooks On Friday, April 24, 1998 at 9:00:00 AM UTC+2, Leo van de Pas wrote: > At 03:53 PM 4/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Does anyone have this ancestry (or can point me to where I can find it) and > that > >of his wife, Louise, daughter of Jean, Seigneur d'Humieres? > > > >I know they are from the Armagnac and Bourbon lines. My guess is that at least > >one of them is a descendant of Bernard, Comte de Pardiac, Vicomte de Carlat and > >de Murat, Comte de La Marche, Baron d'Angles and de Peyrusse, Seigneur d'Ordan > >and de Biran, Duke de Nemours and his wife Eleonore de Bourbon, Countess de La > >Marche. > For the d'Humieres line I could find nothing but a fair amount for the > de Balsac line. I did find an d'Armagnac connection but not to the one > you hope to find. Hereby an ancestorlist---where numbers are omitted > I don't know the details. > > 1.Guillaume de Balsac, Seigneur d'Entragues et Marcoussins > died 1555 > > 2.Pierre de Balsac, Baron d'Entragues et de Saint-Amand > married > 3.Anne Malet, Dame de Montaigu et du Bois-Malesherbes > died after 14 December 1525 > > 4.Robert de Balsac, Baron d'Entragues et de Saint-Amand > married > 5.Antoinette de Castelnau > > 6.Louis Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > married > 7.Marie de Balsac > died 23 May 1503 > > 12.Jean VI de Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > marriage contract dated 27 June 1440 > 13.Marie de Montauban > > 14.Rossec II de Balsac, Senechall de Nimes, Seigneur de Glisenove > married > 15.Jeanne d'Albon > > 24.Jean V Malet, Seigneur de Graville et de Marcoussis > died after 1449 > 25.Jacqueline de Montaigu, Dame de Marcoussis et du Bois-Malesherbes > died 1436 Moncontour > 26.Guillaume, Seigneur de Montauban > died 1432 > married 1414 > 27.Bonne Visconti dite de Milan > died after 1433 > > 50.Jean de Montaigu, Seigneur de Montaigu, de Marcoussis > born 1363 Paris > died 17 October 1409 Paris (beheaded) > 51.Jacqueline de La Grange > > 52.Olivier V, Seigneur de Montauban > 53.Mahaud d'Aubigne, Dame de Landal > > 54.Carlo Visconti, Lord of Parma > born circa 1357 Milano > died 1391 (or 1403) > married 1382 > 55.Beatrice d'Armagnac > > 100.Charles V, King of France 1364-1380 > born 21 January 1337 Chateau de Vincennes > died 16 September 1380 Chateau de Vincennes > mistress : > 101.Biette Cassinel > > 102.Etienne de La Grange > 103.Marie du Bois > > 108.Bernabo Visconti, Lord of Milan, Bergamo, Cremona, Lodi, Bologna > born 1319 Milan > died 18 December 1385 Trezzo (poisoned) > 109.Regina de Salcalle > > 110.Jean II, Comte d'Armagnac > died 26 May 1384 Avignon > married 1359 > 111.Jeanne de Perigord > > Sources : > > Kwartieren van Hendrik III en Willem de Rijke van Nassau, > Geldrop, 1965, by G. F. de Roo van Alderwerelt > > The Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, > Edinburgh, 1977, by Gerald Paget > > Cahiers de Saint Louis, > by Jacques Dupont and Jacques Saillot > > Europaischen Stammtafeln, > J.A. Stargart Verlag, Marburg (Schwennicke) > > Hope this helps, > Leo van de Pas

On 11-Sep-17 10:30 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 10-Sep-17 4:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: >> Thompson reported (p 71) that Eustace's fist wife, the English >> princess Goda, 'bore her new husband no surviving male heir, and by >> the late 1040s she must have been nearing forty years of age. It was >> now perhaps convenient to dissolve the marriage. The existence of a >> common ancestor in King Alfred of England allowed Eustace and Goda to >> part, and the researches of Dr Christopher Lewis suggest that from >> 1051 Countess Goda lived in her brother’s kingdom, probably at >> Lambeth, close to his chosen residence of Westminster'. The reference >> given for this (ibid note 42) is not very illuminating: 'C. P. Lewis, >> personal communication, based on Goda's holdings in Domesday Book, in >> particular at Lambeth, DB, I, fol. 34. Using material from Rochester >> Cathedral priory's fourteenth century Registrum Temporalium, Dr Lewis >> has deduced that Goda's property at Lambeth was subsequently given to >> Rochester. Rochester later asserted that it had the treasures of the >> Countess Goda in its possession, and it also had an interest in what >> it referred to as 'Countess Goda's former soke' in London, probably a >> survival of the nineteen burgesses recorded under Lambeth in >> Domesday.' It is not clear from this what basis Dr Lewis has for >> identifying the Goda in Domesday book and the 'Countess Goda' in the >> much later Rochester record with the countess of Boulogne. If she was >> nearing 40 in the late 1040s she must have been nearing 80 at the >> time of the Domesday survey, and you might expect that we would hear >> something besides this about a daughter of Ætheldred II who lived for >> at least 20 years under the reign of William the Conqueror. > > The 'Registrum temporalium' of Rochester cathedral priory was > published in 1769, and contains several records of countess Goda's > property - this was evidently Edward the Confessor's sister, wife > successively of counts Drogo of Amiens and Eustace II of Boulogne. > Lambeth church was conceded by William II (in one case identified by > the editor as William I) as it had been held by countess Goda ('sicut > comitissa Goda prius habuit'), and some of her possessions (gospel > books, gold and silver items, etc) were taken from Lambeth to > Rochester by the keeper of the manor. > > From these records it could be taken that Goda was living at Lambeth > into William II's reign, and she is mentioned in Domesday book as > having held it. I may have misunderstood the interpretation placed by Christopher Lewis on the evidence mentioned - because of Kathleen Thompson's phrase "Goda's holdings in Domesday Book", I took it he was proposing that Goda lived until 1086. However, the holdings ascribed to her in Domesday book were not contemporary with the survey and recorded in the present tense, but rather in the reign of her brother Edward the Confessor and recorded in the perfect tense. In Surrey she had formerly held the manor of Lambeth, which was held by its church of St Mary in 1086 ('Sancta Maria manerium est quod Lanchei uocatur. Goða cometissa tenuit soror R[egis]. E[dwardi].') St Mary’s at Lambeth also held Aston Subedge in Gloucestershire, which Goda had held in the reign of her brother Edward, ('Ecclesia Sancte Marie de Lanheie tenet Estone. Goða comitissa tenuit T.R.E.'). Ralph of Fougères held Headley in Surrey which Goda had held in her brother's reign ('Radvlfus de Felgeres tenet Hallega. Goða comitissa tenuit de rege E.'). Clearly she was no longer living in 1086. Her former holdings were discussed by John Blair in *Early Medieval Surrey: Landholding, Church and Settlement before 1300* (Stroud, 1991), p. 102: 'According to Domesday Book ... Lambeth manor had been in the hands of King Edward's sister Godgifu before her death in 1056; in 1086 St Mary's church of Lambeth held it from the crown except for one field, then in the hands of Odo of Bayeux, which had belonged to the church in Godgifu's time. Soon afterwards the church and the whole vill were apparently given by William Rufus to Bishop Gundulf and his monks at Rochester. Perhaps the best interpretation is that Godgifu had herself founded some kind of collegiate minster, endowing it with the whole manor ... A note that Rochester removed from Lambeth a gold and silver shrine, gospel-books, rich crucifixes and other ornaments, all of which had belonged to Godgifu, may mark the end of a private college or minster', and ibid 198 note 58 regarding the forged confirmation of St Anselm: 'Rochester's later claim that Godgifu had given them the manor before the Conquest ... was presumably baseless'. Goda's death in 1056 is not certain, but only deduced from the remarriage of her second husband, Eustace of Boulogne, reportedly in 1057. If Dr Lewis thinks that she had parted from Eustace and lived in England from 1051, this would require some firm evidence - apart from the Domesday and Rochester records - that Kathleen Thompson did not report. Otherwise, as far as I am aware, there is no evidence that Goda and Eustace separated after he was excommunicated in October 1049. For all we know this may have been resolved, perhaps along with the problem of William with his intended marriage to Matilda, or they may have gone on defying the Church without a resolution. The same may have applied to count Enguerrand I of Ponthieu ('Angilrai', i.e. Angilrannum) who was also excommunicated in 1049. Peter Stewart

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 9:56:12 AM UTC-6, gdco...@gmail.com wrote: < Yes, I was fast coming to the realization that it's chronologically impossible < for Hugh Gregory (Coddington's gen 13), b 1490-95, to be a 5th generation < descendant of a couple m. ca 1469 (per their dispensation). It appears < something is seriously amiss in the published pedigrees. < Greg Indeed. DR

On 11-Sep-17 10:30 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 10-Sep-17 4:02 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: >> Thompson reported (p 71) that Eustace's fist wife, the English >> princess Goda, 'bore her new husband no surviving male heir, and by >> the late 1040s she must have been nearing forty years of age. It was >> now perhaps convenient to dissolve the marriage. The existence of a >> common ancestor in King Alfred of England allowed Eustace and Goda to >> part, and the researches of Dr Christopher Lewis suggest that from >> 1051 Countess Goda lived in her brother’s kingdom, probably at >> Lambeth, close to his chosen residence of Westminster'. The reference >> given for this (ibid note 42) is not very illuminating: 'C. P. Lewis, >> personal communication, based on Goda's holdings in Domesday Book, in >> particular at Lambeth, DB, I, fol. 34. Using material from Rochester >> Cathedral priory's fourteenth century Registrum Temporalium, Dr Lewis >> has deduced that Goda's property at Lambeth was subsequently given to >> Rochester. Rochester later asserted that it had the treasures of the >> Countess Goda in its possession, and it also had an interest in what >> it referred to as 'Countess Goda's former soke' in London, probably a >> survival of the nineteen burgesses recorded under Lambeth in >> Domesday.' It is not clear from this what basis Dr Lewis has for >> identifying the Goda in Domesday book and the 'Countess Goda' in the >> much later Rochester record with the countess of Boulogne. If she was >> nearing 40 in the late 1040s she must have been nearing 80 at the >> time of the Domesday survey, and you might expect that we would hear >> something besides this about a daughter of Ætheldred II who lived for >> at least 20 years under the reign of William the Conqueror. > > The 'Registrum temporalium' of Rochester cathedral priory was > published in 1769, and contains several records of countess Goda's > property - this was evidently Edward the Confessor's sister, wife > successively of counts Drogo of Amiens and Eustace II of Boulogne. > Lambeth church was conceded by William II (in one case identified by > the editor as William I) as it had been held by countess Goda ('sicut > comitissa Goda prius habuit'), and some of her possessions (gospel > books, gold and silver items, etc) were taken from Lambeth to > Rochester by the keeper of the manor. > > From these records it could be taken that Goda was living at Lambeth > into William II's reign, and she is mentioned in Domesday book as > having held it. However, we also know from a confirmation in 1101 by > St Anselm, archbishop of Canterbury, that William was actually > restoring to Rochester the property at Lambeth that Goda had herself > previously given ('in Surreya Lamhetham cum ecclesia quod dedit Goda > comitissa, et Willelmus rex filius regis Willelmi ecclesie Roffe > deinde restituit'). In light of this, there is no certainty as to when > her donation was made, and this may well have been before the Conquest > rather than after the Domesday survey. The supposed confirmation by St Anselm turns out to be a 13th-century concoction according to the editors of *English Episcopal Acta 28* (2004), but the point remains that by its own account Rochester cathedral priory had received Lambeth originally from Goda. Peter Stewart

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:25:54 PM UTC-6, Paulo Canedo wrote: > In 2015 there was a discussion in this newsgroup that started with a question about the validity of immigrant Henry Gregory as a Gateway Ancestor to Royalty. I saw it a few days ago and today I saw a post of 2000 in www.genealogy.com it is http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/gregory/2742/ that affirms that the immigrant Henry being son of John Gregory of Nottinghamshire is not proven however the evidence they say there seems to me enough to make a good case. John's son William who was styled Gentleman in his will dated 18 June 1650 and proved on 5 February 1651, gave a legacy to his brother Henry Gregory "now in New England." There is no other known Henry Gregory in New England at the time. Henry of Nottingham son of John is known to have been a shoemaker and Henry the Immigrant was also one. Henry the Immigrant named his eldest son John that was the name of Henry of Nottingham's father and Henry of Nottingham is known to have had a daughter named Anne who has the correct age to be Henry the Immigrant's daughter Anne. > > I think this is convincing enough but comments on the topic are welcome. Yes, I was fast coming to the realization that it's chronologically impossible for Hugh Gregory (Coddington's gen 13), b 1490-95, to be a 5th generation descendant of a couple m. ca 1469 (per their dispensation). It appears something is seriously amiss in the published pedigrees. Greg

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 11:25:54 AM UTC-7, Paulo Canedo wrote: > In 2015 there was a discussion in this newsgroup that started with a question about the validity of immigrant Henry Gregory as a Gateway Ancestor to Royalty. I saw it a few days ago and today I saw a post of 2000 in www.genealogy.com it is http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/gregory/2742/ that affirms that the immigrant Henry being son of John Gregory of Nottinghamshire is not proven however the evidence they say there seems to me enough to make a good case. John's son William who was styled Gentleman in his will dated 18 June 1650 and proved on 5 February 1651, gave a legacy to his brother Henry Gregory "now in New England." There is no other known Henry Gregory in New England at the time. Henry of Nottingham son of John is known to have been a shoemaker and Henry the Immigrant was also one. Henry the Immigrant named his eldest son John that was the name of Henry of Nottingham's father and Henry of Nottingham is known to have had a daughter named Anne who has the correct age to be Henry the Immigrant's daughter Anne. > > I think this is convincing enough but comments on the topic are welcome. Douglas Richardson, >From Victoria County History: " A disposition for the marriage of Roger Hulton and Katherine Harrington related in the fourth degree was granted by Paul 11 and issued by the Bishop of Litchfield in August 1467." This date of 1467 makes me doubt that the Emma Hulton, daughter of Roger and Katherine Harrington, married Richard Parr. The Emma Hulton who married Richard Parr was probably the daughter of and earlier Roger Hulton.

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 11:25:54 AM UTC-7, Paulo Canedo wrote: > In 2015 there was a discussion in this newsgroup that started with a question about the validity of immigrant Henry Gregory as a Gateway Ancestor to Royalty. I saw it a few days ago and today I saw a post of 2000 in www.genealogy.com it is http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/gregory/2742/ that affirms that the immigrant Henry being son of John Gregory of Nottinghamshire is not proven however the evidence they say there seems to me enough to make a good case. John's son William who was styled Gentleman in his will dated 18 June 1650 and proved on 5 February 1651, gave a legacy to his brother Henry Gregory "now in New England." There is no other known Henry Gregory in New England at the time. Henry of Nottingham son of John is known to have been a shoemaker and Henry the Immigrant was also one. Henry the Immigrant named his eldest son John that was the name of Henry of Nottingham's father and Henry of Nottingham is known to have had a daughter named Anne who has the correct age to be Henry the Immigrant's daughter Anne. > > I think this is convincing enough but comments on the topic are welcome.

Good point! There's a tendency to deprecate the "royal" status of medieval Welsh rulers, and you're right to call me on it. On 2017-09-10 18:38:53 +0000, Wjhonson said: > Actually Llewellyn, Ruler of North /Wales/ 1194-1240 > > Olive Welby is 13 from him, while being 16 from E1 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Nielsen Hayden <pnh@panix.com> > To: gen-medieval <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wed, Sep 6, 2017 4:50 pm > Subject: Re: A descent from Edward III to working class people and Danny Dyer > > On 2017-09-05 01:32:01 +0000, Peter Stewart said: > >> It would be interesting to know if anyone in this group can trace at >> least one line each for 20% of their great-great-grandparents (say 3 of >> the 16, assuming these are three different people) back to >> mid-14th-century England without running into Edward III. > > Yes, my wife. > > Great-great grandmother Mary Elizabeth Bingham (1853-1933), descendant > of Olive Welby (1604-1692), most recent royal ancestor Edward I. > > Great-great grandfather Hyrum Smith Phelps (1846-1926), descendant of > Margaret Wyatt (1595-1675), most recent royal ancestor Henry I. > > Great-great grandfather Charles Hopkins Allen (1830-1922), descendant > of William Wentworth (1616-1697), most recent royal ancestor Henry I. > > Great-great grandfather Alonzo Hamilton Packer (1841-1917), descendant > of Alice Freeman (~1595-1658), most recent royal ancestor Aethelred II > (d. 1016). > > No known descents from Edward III. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message