Some conjectures for Henry Samson (of Henlow, Bedfordshire) and his maternal aunt, Mrs. Ann Tilley, as well -- they have proven medieval ancestry (Latimer), but no documented connection to royalty yet. See Robert Leigh Ward's article, "The Baronial Ancestry of Henry Sampson, Humility Cooper, and Ann (Cooper) Tilley," TG 6:166. Last time I checked, most speculation centered on their Greene ancestry being derived from the family of Greene's Norton, Northampton. 1. Henry Samson 2. James Samson & Martha Cooper (sister of Ann Tilley) 3. Edmund Cooper & Mary Wyne 4. Michael Cooper & Elizabeth Page 5. Robert Page & Cicily Greene 6. John Greene (of uncertain parentage) & Edith Latimer Earliest proven ancestors for Edith go back to circa Norman Conquest (Raimbeaucourt, Langetot, etc.) Jim+

Em sexta-feira, 15 de setembro de 2017 00:11:31 UTC+1, Brad Verity escreveu: > On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 3:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > > One possible answer to Peter's question might be provided by Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet Ancestry". Of the roughly 150 surnames of gateway ancestors (excluding siblings) covered in at least the 1st edition of that work, only slightly more than half have descents from Edward III. The remainder derive their Plantagenet descents from an earlier monarch - or from a non-monarch Plantagenet descendant (e.g., Hamelin Plantagenet). Make of that what you will... :-) > > Let's take one of those Edward III New England immigrants from Plantagenet Ancestry: the Mayflower passenger Capt. Richard More of Salem, Mass. (1614-by 1696). > > Per the Mayflower Society, there are 31 Mayflower passengers known to have descendants living today. The list is here: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mayflower_Society > > Is Capt. More the only one on the list with a traceable line of descent from Edward III? > > How many descendants of Capt. More are living today? Hundreds? Thousands? What percentage of the total number of Mayflower descendants living today (which the Mayflower Society claims is in the tens of millions) are descended from Capt. More? > > Cheers, ----Brad Capt. Richard More is the only one with a proved line from royalty he is the Mayflower passenger with less descendants in the Mayflower Society. There are also conjectures of royal descent for the Winslows.

Dear all, The traditional pedigree of the Tirolean Counts of Spaur states that Hildebrand von Spaur, a knight and Erblandmundschenk of Tirol in 1507, married as his first wife on Clara von Roß / de Cavallis [1]. They had three children, of whom Chrysanth von Spaur (c.1494-after 1540) has numerous modern descendants. My questions concerns Clara. Her surname would seem to suggest that she is somehow related to Anton vom Roß / Antonio de Cavallis, the Genoan banker who partnered with the Fuggers in 1487 to advance money to Archduke Sigismund of Tirol [2]. Less clear to me, though, is the exact nature of their relationship and the larger history of this family. Are they related to the Cavalli of Verona or is this a different family entirely? Any suggestions would be very welcome. All the best, Kelsey [1] Bucelin, _Germania_, ii. sig. X3v; BLKO, xxxvi. pedigree IV facing 89. [2] http://tinyurl.com/y9dtcfxy

thank you so much for providing this discussion!! I'm an Australian descendent of Frederick William Jackson son of Elizabeth Maria Lodington. I had previously been stuck on her, but your information has helped me go much further than I had first thought possible. Many thanks Brad and James. Are you both from this line?

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 7:11:31 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote: > On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 3:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > > One possible answer to Peter's question might be provided by Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet Ancestry". Of the roughly 150 surnames of gateway ancestors (excluding siblings) covered in at least the 1st edition of that work, only slightly more than half have descents from Edward III. The remainder derive their Plantagenet descents from an earlier monarch - or from a non-monarch Plantagenet descendant (e.g., Hamelin Plantagenet). Make of that what you will... :-) > > Let's take one of those Edward III New England immigrants from Plantagenet Ancestry: the Mayflower passenger Capt. Richard More of Salem, Mass. (1614-by 1696). > > Per the Mayflower Society, there are 31 Mayflower passengers known to have descendants living today. The list is here: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mayflower_Society > > Is Capt. More the only one on the list with a traceable line of descent from Edward III? He is the only one with any royal ancestry proven whatsoever (although don't know if the pending TAG article has something new) > > How many descendants of Capt. More are living today? Hundreds? Thousands? What percentage of the total number of Mayflower descendants living today (which the Mayflower Society claims is in the tens of millions) are descended from Capt. More? Anecdotally, the number is not in the millions as it is for some other mayflower passengers I've never met or heard of one despite the onslaught of John Alden, Richard Warren, Francis Cooke descendants out there. As far as I can tell he only has 10 known grandchildren.

Dear Joe ~ A transcript of the 1452 will of Sir John Talbot, K.G., Earl of Shrewsbury, is published in Trans. Shropshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. 3rd Ser. 4 (1904): 371–378. You can view this transcript at the following weblink: https://books.google.com/books?id=63hHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA371 Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 3:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > One possible answer to Peter's question might be provided by Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet Ancestry". Of the roughly 150 surnames of gateway ancestors (excluding siblings) covered in at least the 1st edition of that work, only slightly more than half have descents from Edward III. The remainder derive their Plantagenet descents from an earlier monarch - or from a non-monarch Plantagenet descendant (e.g., Hamelin Plantagenet). Make of that what you will... :-) Let's take one of those Edward III New England immigrants from Plantagenet Ancestry: the Mayflower passenger Capt. Richard More of Salem, Mass. (1614-by 1696). Per the Mayflower Society, there are 31 Mayflower passengers known to have descendants living today. The list is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mayflower_Society Is Capt. More the only one on the list with a traceable line of descent from Edward III? How many descendants of Capt. More are living today? Hundreds? Thousands? What percentage of the total number of Mayflower descendants living today (which the Mayflower Society claims is in the tens of millions) are descended from Capt. More? Cheers, ----Brad

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 2:54:46 PM UTC-7, al...@intrac.co.nz wrote: > Hi Brad el al, > Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland? > What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated. > Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand Nice to meet you Alan. Sorry to report that I have no knowledge that any further research into the origins of Robert Temple of New England has occurred in the past five years. Hopefully someone else will be able to help you out! Cheers, ---Brad

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 1:34:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote: > On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:13:46 PM UTC-7, Joe wrote: > > The daughter “Warren” that you mentioned is known from only one reference. He provides for her marriage in his will. If she had been married already we would have no notice of her at all. I think this is what happened to Katherine – once married off she is gone from the record. With regard to the name Warren, Hugh Talbot a biographer of John Talbot says the name actually appears as ‘Warris’ in the original will. > > Dear Joe, > > The daughter 'Warren' mentioned by the Earl of Shrewsbury in his will of 1 Sept. 1452 was his youngest legitimate daughter, Elizabeth Talbot (1442-1506). He had married her at a very young age in Oct. 1448 to John Mowbray, the only son and heir of the Duke of Norfolk. On 24 Mar. 1451, seventeen months before he wrote his will, Shrewsbury's young son-in-law John Mowbray had been created Earl Warenne, and so Shrewsbury's daughter was Countess Warenne. > > Hope this helps! > > Cheers, ------Brad Hi Brad, Thanks. It certainly explains an unusual name. I believe when I wrote the stuff above 16 years ago, I had just read the very lengthy will (it was several pages) of John Talbot which had been given in full in "The English Achilles: An Account of the Life and Campaigns of John Talbot, 1st Earl of Shrewsbury, (1383-1453)", by Hugh Talbot. The way I remember it though the daughter was clearly unmarried, and money was being set aside should she ever marry. I probably still have this at home somewhere; I will see if I can check it. I'm still not sure we can say Katherine was a daughter of Maud Neville (who has only 4 known children in an 18 year marriage) or if she was illegitimate.

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:13:46 PM UTC-7, Joe wrote: > The daughter “Warren” that you mentioned is known from only one reference. He provides for her marriage in his will. If she had been married already we would have no notice of her at all. I think this is what happened to Katherine – once married off she is gone from the record. With regard to the name Warren, Hugh Talbot a biographer of John Talbot says the name actually appears as ‘Warris’ in the original will. Dear Joe, The daughter 'Warren' mentioned by the Earl of Shrewsbury in his will of 1 Sept. 1452 was his youngest legitimate daughter, Elizabeth Talbot (1442-1506). He had married her at a very young age in Oct. 1448 to John Mowbray, the only son and heir of the Duke of Norfolk. On 24 Mar. 1451, seventeen months before he wrote his will, Shrewsbury's young son-in-law John Mowbray had been created Earl Warenne, and so Shrewsbury's daughter was Countess Warenne. Hope this helps! Cheers, ------Brad

I suspect that the person identified in the Visitation of Shropshire, 1623 as "Walter Barnfield of Poulmore in com. Devon" is someone who might otherwise be referred to as Walter Bamfield of Poltimore in com. Devon. Bam(p)field with its chosen variant Bampfylde is the surname of the family of Viscount Poltimore. In case you haven't already, you might want to investigate that family's pedigree in case it sheds any light on your question. Richard On 14/09/2017, Joe <cochoit@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-7, bradley.j...@gmail.com > wrote: >> Hello And Good Morning to the members in the Genealogy Medieval Group. I >> would like to ask, Who are the parents and siblings for Catherine Talbot? >> Catherine Talbot was married to Sir Nicholas De Eyton. I have seen that >> her parents are John Talbot, The First Earl Of Shrewsbury and Maud De >> Neville. >> >> However, I have some doubts about this as well and any information and >> sources it would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thank You And Sincerely, >> >> Bradley Johnson > > I wrote this a long time ago. I don't know why I am having trouble finding > it in the archives. There are good reasons to believe that she was the > daughter John Talbot, 1st earl of Shrewsbury. Her mother is in doubt. I > think she is likely a daughter by his first wife, Maud Neville. Douglas > Richardson thinks she was more likely an illegitimate daughter. There is no > real evidence either way. > > copy-paste: > She is known only through the Visitation records which is a major weakness. > There is no other supporting evidence. However, as noted in the links > above, she is in multiple Visitations taken at very different time periods. > > Visitations of Shropshire, 1623 > Nich’us Eyton de Eyton in co. Salop Sheriff in 1440 and 1449 > m. Katherina filia Joh’is Talbott in com. Salop Earl of Salop > > Walter Barnfield of Poulmore in com. Devon > m. Ellen dau. Nicho. Eyton of Wigmore knight Sr Nicholas Etton of > Wildmore by the Earl of Salops da. > > Visitation of Essex by Hawlet 1552; Hervey 1558; Cooke 1570; etc. > (Taken 1558) > Sr Nicholas Eton of Etton in com. Salope, knight > m. Katheran, da. to John Talbott Earle of Salope > > To me this enough evidence to this say is very likely true. There is other > circumstantial evidence to suggest Katherine Talbot existed. As you noted > their son and heir was Lewis Eyton. The Eyton family can be traced back to > the 1100’s and nowhere previously does the name Lewis occur – it is likely > he is named for Lewis Talbot who would be a brother of Katherine’s. As I > noted in a previous post, the church at Eyton (built 1733) had stained glass > showing the arms of every family which had married into the Eyton family. > It has the Talbot arms in a position which indicates a Talbot married > Nicholas Eyton – certainly the Eytons believed the marriage and were willing > to display the Talbot arms in their church. > > Nicholas Eyton was a sheriff of Shropshire in 1440, 1445 and 1455 and a M.P. > in 1449 and 1450. VCH singles out Sir Nicholas Eyton to say national > politics played a role in his 1454 appointment. From 1377 to 1643, "only 6 > Shropshire sheriffs served more than 1 year contrary to statute", Nic Eyton > obviously served 3 years. At this time, the sheriffs were primarily > followers of the Earl of Shrewsbury. It would seem to me that these > appointments were probably due the Sir Nicholas Eyton's marriage to the > Earl's daughter. > > The next question would be which Earl of Shrewsbury are we talking about. > Based on dates of when Nicholas and his son were active it was almost > certainly John Talbot, (c1384-1453), cr. Earl of Shrewbury. But how could a > man as well-known as John, Earl of Shrewsbury, Earl of Wexford and > Waterford, Lord Talbot, Lord Strange, Lord Furnivalle, Count of Clermont, > Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Lord High Steward of Ireland, Marshall of > France, “the English Achilles”, leader of numerous military campaigns, have > a daughter as obscure as Katherine Talbot married to Nicholas Eyton (an > important member of the landed > gentry and knights of Shrewsbury, but no where near the level of the Earl)? > First, John Talbot was not born to this level of nobility but slowly > acquired it through marriage, and as a reward for his service > later in life. It would not be unthinkable that a daughter could be married > to a family such as Eyton and the Eytons would be known to him from his > campaigns in France (I note that Fulk Eyton, brother of Nicholas, carried > the bones of the Earl of Arundel out of France, and later he was in command > of the English garrison in Maine). Secondly, we know very little about any > of the children of John Talbot other > than the ones which inherited titles. > > The daughter “Warren” that you mentioned is known from only one reference. > He provides for her marriage in his will. If she had been married already > we would have no notice of her at all. I think this is what happened to > Katherine – once married off she is gone from the record. With regard to > the name Warren, Hugh Talbot a biographer of John Talbot says the name > actually appears as ‘Warris’ in the original will. > > So if John Talbot, 1st Earl is the father, who is the mother of Katherine > Talbot? John Talbot was married twice. First he married Maud Neville in > 1405; she died 1423. During this 18 year marriage, only 4 children are > known. It is very possible she had additional children who are not known; > it would also match the theory that Katherine would be married to Nicholas > Eyton prior to John Talbot > becoming a national hero. He married 2nd Margaret Beauchamp in 1425. This > marriage is probably a little late if you think Nicholas was married c1435 > (a very rough guess). The third possibility is that she > is illegitimate. John Talbot is known to have acknowledged 1 illegitimate > son, Henry who was killed with him at Castillion. People have speculated on > this forum that Katherine is illegitimate to > explain her marrying into a different social class (I don’t think this is > necessary). I think it is likely she is a daughter of Maud Neville, > possibly an illegitimate daughter, and less likely a daughter of Margaret > Beauchamp. Regardless, without new evidence being discovered, it is > impossible to say who her mother is. > > Joe Cochoit > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-7, bradley.j...@gmail.com wrote: > Hello And Good Morning to the members in the Genealogy Medieval Group. I would like to ask, Who are the parents and siblings for Catherine Talbot? Catherine Talbot was married to Sir Nicholas De Eyton. I have seen that her parents are John Talbot, The First Earl Of Shrewsbury and Maud De Neville. > > However, I have some doubts about this as well and any information and sources it would be greatly appreciated. > > Thank You And Sincerely, > > Bradley Johnson I wrote this a long time ago. I don't know why I am having trouble finding it in the archives. There are good reasons to believe that she was the daughter John Talbot, 1st earl of Shrewsbury. Her mother is in doubt. I think she is likely a daughter by his first wife, Maud Neville. Douglas Richardson thinks she was more likely an illegitimate daughter. There is no real evidence either way. copy-paste: She is known only through the Visitation records which is a major weakness. There is no other supporting evidence. However, as noted in the links above, she is in multiple Visitations taken at very different time periods. Visitations of Shropshire, 1623 Nich’us Eyton de Eyton in co. Salop Sheriff in 1440 and 1449 m. Katherina filia Joh’is Talbott in com. Salop Earl of Salop Walter Barnfield of Poulmore in com. Devon m. Ellen dau. Nicho. Eyton of Wigmore knight Sr Nicholas Etton of Wildmore by the Earl of Salops da. Visitation of Essex by Hawlet 1552; Hervey 1558; Cooke 1570; etc. (Taken 1558) Sr Nicholas Eton of Etton in com. Salope, knight m. Katheran, da. to John Talbott Earle of Salope To me this enough evidence to this say is very likely true. There is other circumstantial evidence to suggest Katherine Talbot existed. As you noted their son and heir was Lewis Eyton. The Eyton family can be traced back to the 1100’s and nowhere previously does the name Lewis occur – it is likely he is named for Lewis Talbot who would be a brother of Katherine’s. As I noted in a previous post, the church at Eyton (built 1733) had stained glass showing the arms of every family which had married into the Eyton family. It has the Talbot arms in a position which indicates a Talbot married Nicholas Eyton – certainly the Eytons believed the marriage and were willing to display the Talbot arms in their church. Nicholas Eyton was a sheriff of Shropshire in 1440, 1445 and 1455 and a M.P. in 1449 and 1450. VCH singles out Sir Nicholas Eyton to say national politics played a role in his 1454 appointment. From 1377 to 1643, "only 6 Shropshire sheriffs served more than 1 year contrary to statute", Nic Eyton obviously served 3 years. At this time, the sheriffs were primarily followers of the Earl of Shrewsbury. It would seem to me that these appointments were probably due the Sir Nicholas Eyton's marriage to the Earl's daughter. The next question would be which Earl of Shrewsbury are we talking about. Based on dates of when Nicholas and his son were active it was almost certainly John Talbot, (c1384-1453), cr. Earl of Shrewbury. But how could a man as well-known as John, Earl of Shrewsbury, Earl of Wexford and Waterford, Lord Talbot, Lord Strange, Lord Furnivalle, Count of Clermont, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Lord High Steward of Ireland, Marshall of France, “the English Achilles”, leader of numerous military campaigns, have a daughter as obscure as Katherine Talbot married to Nicholas Eyton (an important member of the landed gentry and knights of Shrewsbury, but no where near the level of the Earl)? First, John Talbot was not born to this level of nobility but slowly acquired it through marriage, and as a reward for his service later in life. It would not be unthinkable that a daughter could be married to a family such as Eyton and the Eytons would be known to him from his campaigns in France (I note that Fulk Eyton, brother of Nicholas, carried the bones of the Earl of Arundel out of France, and later he was in command of the English garrison in Maine). Secondly, we know very little about any of the children of John Talbot other than the ones which inherited titles. The daughter “Warren” that you mentioned is known from only one reference. He provides for her marriage in his will. If she had been married already we would have no notice of her at all. I think this is what happened to Katherine – once married off she is gone from the record. With regard to the name Warren, Hugh Talbot a biographer of John Talbot says the name actually appears as ‘Warris’ in the original will. So if John Talbot, 1st Earl is the father, who is the mother of Katherine Talbot? John Talbot was married twice. First he married Maud Neville in 1405; she died 1423. During this 18 year marriage, only 4 children are known. It is very possible she had additional children who are not known; it would also match the theory that Katherine would be married to Nicholas Eyton prior to John Talbot becoming a national hero. He married 2nd Margaret Beauchamp in 1425. This marriage is probably a little late if you think Nicholas was married c1435 (a very rough guess). The third possibility is that she is illegitimate. John Talbot is known to have acknowledged 1 illegitimate son, Henry who was killed with him at Castillion. People have speculated on this forum that Katherine is illegitimate to explain her marrying into a different social class (I don’t think this is necessary). I think it is likely she is a daughter of Maud Neville, possibly an illegitimate daughter, and less likely a daughter of Margaret Beauchamp. Regardless, without new evidence being discovered, it is impossible to say who her mother is. Joe Cochoit

Hello And Good Morning to the members in the Genealogy Medieval Group. I would like to ask, Who are the parents and siblings for Catherine Talbot? Catherine Talbot was married to Sir Nicholas De Eyton. I have seen that her parents are John Talbot, The First Earl Of Shrewsbury and Maud De Neville. However, I have some doubts about this as well and any information and sources it would be greatly appreciated. Thank You And Sincerely, Bradley Johnson

On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 1:19:01 PM UTC-7, Steve Riggan wrote: > I am a descendant of John Hicks and Herodias Long of New England myself, but the line beyond John might go another generation or two reliably. We're not sure if he was any relation to the other families who settled in New England. He and his wife Herodias came from London to the New World in the 1600's but we have never established his line earlier. The links to English nobility are likely unreliable as I have seen many, many of these attempts at attaching the American Hicks to the family of Ellis Hicks. I have never seen proof of this connection so I would not put a lot of stock in it unless more credible evidence emerges. I wish I could say different, but the evidence has not so far been there. Baptist Hicks, 1st Viscount Camden's grandson Baptist Noel, 3rd Viscount, was married to Hester Wotton who was a cousin to my mother's family in England, so this was one of our connections to the Hicks family completely independent of my American Hicks line. > > Steve Riggan > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:45 AM, "rblood63@gmail.com" <rblood63@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Monday, February 26, 1996 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Jared Olar wrote: > >> Help me who can: > >> > >> In the book SIGNERS OF THE MAYFLOWER COMPACT, by Annie Arnoux > >> Haxtun, 1897-1899, reprinted 1968, page 104, there is a pedigree of the > >> colonist Robert Hickes (who came to Massachusetts on the _Fortune_ in > >> 1621) tracing him back to a SIR ELLIS HICKS who was supposedly knighted > >> on the battlefield of Poitiers by Edward the Black Prince. She claims to > >> be taking this information from the "Barton Genealogy," pages 189-90, > >> whatever that is. > >> The size of it is this--that Robert Hicks belonged to the same > >> family from which came SIR BAPTIST HICKS, created 5 May 1628 Baron Hicks of > >> Ilmington, co. Warwick, and Viscount Campden, as well as the Baronets > >> Hicks (later Hicks-Beach). [See Cokayne's _Complete Baronetage_, > >> microprint edition 1983, pp.125-127,150-151] > >> Here is the reputed relationship of Robert Hicks to the > >> 'gentlemanly' Hickses. The capitalised names are verified by Cokayne: > >> > >> > >> Sir Ellis Hicks > >> ! > >> > >> ! > >> > >> ! > >> John Hicks > >> d.1492 > >> ! > >> !----------------------------------------! > >> Thomas Hicks ROBERT HICKS > >> d.1565 of St. Pancras Lane, > >> md.Margaret Atwood Cheapside, London, Mercer. > >> ! md.JULIA ARTHUR > >> ! ! > >> !-----------------------! !-----------------------! > >> John Hicks Baptist Hicks SIR MICHAEL SIR BAPTIST > >> b.c.1526 HICKES HICKES > >> md.Mary Everard of Beverston 1st. Viscount > >> ! Castle, co. Campden > >> ! Gloucester. d.20/28 Oct. 1629 > >> ! d.15 Aug.1612 ! > >> ! ! ! > >> !-----------------------! ! ! > >> Baptist Hicks James Hicks WILIAM HICKS {2 DAUS.} > >> d. unmd. md.Phoebe Baronet of > >> ! Beverston Castle > >> ! d.9 Oct. 1680 > >> ! > >> !--------------------------------------------------! > >> {3 daus.} John Ephraim *Robert* Samuel Thomas James > >> Hicks Hicks *Hicks* Hicks Hicks Hicks > >> d. y. b.1580 > >> > >> The chronology of this pedigree seems really bad. For example, you > >> will notice that Robert is said to have been born a whole century before > >> the death of William Hicks, reputed second cousin of Robert's reputed > >> father James. Furthermore, on the same page that the above pedigree appears, > >> Haxtun quotes another authority which says that Robert Hicks was the son of > >> JOHN Hicks, not James. Which is right? Is it known for certain one way > >> or the other? > >> Concerning the abovenamed sons of James and Phoebe Hicks, Haxtun > >> states that Samuel Hicks has two sons, named TIMOTHY and RICHARD--these > >> two, she said, emigrated New England. [Where??]. Samuel's brother Thomas > >> was a linen draper of London who followed his brother Robert to New > >> England. Finally, the youngest named son, James, was a clerk in the > >> London warehouse of his 'cousin' Sir Baptist Hicks (presumably the 1st. > >> Viscount Campden). > >> > >> Is any of this true, or is it some of that typical genealogical > >> bullshit from the nineteenth century? > >> ---------------------------------------------- > >> There is one other notice which seems to concern this family. > >> This comes from "English Origins of New England Families," second series, > >> volume II, 1985, page 760: > >> > >> Henry Miners "married one Henreta Hicks, . . . daughter to Edward > >> Hicks of Glocester, of whom, as appears by the paling of their armes, are > >> the Hicks of Beverston Castle in Glocester descended; . . . ." Later > >> this quoted manuscript describes the Hicks arms as "gu. a fesse wavy, > >> between three fleurs-de-lis or." Chronologically it would seem to me that > >> this Edward would be in the generation immediately after Sir Ellis Hicks. > >> ---------------------------------------------- > >> Does anyone know anymore about the Hickses of Beverston Castle, and/or > >> the ancestry of the colonist Robert Hicks (of whom I am a descendant)? > >> > >> Jared Olar > >> olar@eagle.uis.edu > >> University Court West #127 > >> Springfield, IL 62703-5400 > > > > My grandmother's father was a Hicks. Do you need help with the geniology of the Hicks? Because everything you have said is write. email me: pmbrumley@eagles.usi.edu > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Hello Mr., Riggan, My name is Bradley Johnson and also my family are also descendants from John Hicks And Herodias Long. It is through their son Thomas Hicks, the husband of Mary Doughty. Whenever you receive this email, can you please reply back to me, and also I will appreciate it. Thank you and Sincerely, Bradley Johnson

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 8:16:47 PM UTC-4, supe...@gmail.com wrote: > Includes Middle Aston (in Steeple Aston), Oxford; Winterbourne Gunner, Laverstoke, Wilts; Windrush, Gloucs; and Hurdcott in Winterbourne Earls. > > William Fitz Norman de la Mare (1048-aft 1086 )= Mabilia le Goz (illegitimate) d/o Hugh le Goz d’Avranches nicknamed “Lupus” > > Henry de la Mare [DLM] Huntsman; in 1130 Pipe Rolls in Oxfordshire > > Richard DLM (1108-1197). Perhaps he has another son Richard DLM. > > Henry DLM (d 1236-1239) m Matilda le Norays (See Feet of Fines) http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v01.pdf Either a de la Mare or a le Norays married Henry de Tracy who had a son Henry de Tracy. See Wiltshire Record Society, Feet of Fines for further details – page 4 1275 12. http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v01.pdf > > > i) Henry DLM (1195 d bef 1249) m Cicely Avenel(d by 1300), widow of John Muscegros (1232-75) s/o Robert Muscegros by Hawise Mallet. Henry DLM became a robber of churches and went to Bampton prison, escaped and was killed as a felon, although he was not tried in court. 1267 his lands were seized by the King. See Hurdcott at http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v35.pdf ii) Gunnora DLM (1200-1249) (related to Henry de Tracy, her uncle,(not the one who helped murder Gilbert a’Becket) whose son Henry de Tracy is her heir) m Geoff Fitz William aka Geoff de Alfeiscot; IPM 185, 26, 38 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=108006&strquery=winterburn https://archive.org/stream/indexlibrary3719brit/indexlibrary3719brit_djvu.txt (search Mara and Mare) https://archive.org/stream/indexlibrary372brit/indexlibrary372brit_djvu.txt ; iii) Alice DLM sister of Henry. > > i) Robert DLM liv 1293, (1234-1254) IPM 184 http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_035.html#it184_012; ii) John DLM (-1280) IPM #345 https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387804#page/n249/mode/2up ; held Alvescot at his death; 3 ½ virgates of Cicely de Muscegros. > > King Henry III granted Winterbourne to Edward his son. > > Robert DLM (b 1272) held Windrush in 1293; he was heir at age 9 ½. 1273 Robert Walerand had custody. > > William DLM liv 1327 paid 1s 6d or less; and in 1351 it was ¼ knight’s fee. > > See Cartulary of St. Mark’s Hospital, Bristol – Volume 21 by St. Mark’s Hospital, Bristol, England for the financial difficulties that Henry de la Mare and his family were in. Page 256. Winterbourne Gunner (mid Hy III bef 1262). It’s no wonder that Gunner de la Mare was confused and not sure who her heir was. > https://books.google.ca/books?id=rD0SAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=%22winterbourne+gunner%22+mare&source=bl&ots=NCX87mfIKI&sig=tzQAjH0nC_jnVCFSnP5jygUHAxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH74OSmo3WAhVGPCYKHfFDCCgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=%22winterbourne%20gunner%22%20mare&f=false > > This was held by the hereditary serjeanty of being usher of the door of the King’s hall. See King’s Sergeants & Officers Cb Kings & Sergeants by J. Horace Round. Tells about DLM services at Alvescot, etc and The Usher of the King’s Hall (page 108) > https://books.google.ca/books?id=zDssBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=%22Middle+Aston%22+mare&source=bl&ots=7HCtdOozrA&sig=nvdkurQG2pcq-WEOBW-pc_cbE70&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd0smgoo_WAhXk6YMKHWvGDAIQ6AEIVjAK#v=onepage&q=%22Middle%20Aston%22%20mare&f=false > > I saw on TV, the Queen going to one of her properties, and the “usher” dressed in royal-type finery, knocked on the door 3 times with a brass rod and spoke very loudly, like a crier of the old days, and announced “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here”, then again knocked on the door 3 times and announced very loudly, “Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth the Second is here” and again a third time this was repeated. Whereby he opened the door and the Queen and her entourage went through the door into the room. Perhaps this is like the service performed by these de la Mares. > > Sources: British History Online > Feet of Fines > Liber Fedorum – Testa de Nevill > > Pam Hi Doug, Thanks for clearing that up. Pam

On 13-Sep-17 7:05 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Dear Peter, I thought Medieval Lands was correct so I thought I would only have to mention the primary sources now I realize I should have mentioned the website. About Medieval Lands I use it because it is one of the few internet genealogy websites with good citations to primary and secondary sources. About the discussions yes I had already seen them and I do know that a website of the dimension of Medieval Lands is too much work for an individual like Charles Cawley who is not an expert on the field. Ho hum. Medieval Lands most emphatically does NOT have "good citations to primary and secondary sources". It has citations that are unexamined, found by over-hasty and often ill-directed skimming, and very frequently misapplied. I'm afraid it is a kind of beginner's arrogance for you to say this, since the statement proves that you cannot know enough to make the assessment in the first place. The website is riddled with nonsense. It is the work of an unprepared ignoramus, devoid of skills and knowledge for this work, who fancies himself as a scholar. It is an imposture on people who don't know enough to see through it, just as it would be for someone like me to prance about on the stage at Covent Garden pretending to be a dancer for audiences who had never seen ballet done properly. Medieval genealogy is not rocket science, but it takes more than the will to be admired in order to do it usefully and present the results to the public. Even a tiny fraction of the scope of Medieval Lands is beyond the capacity of its compiler, because he simply does not have a clue how to go about what he is doing. Someone who can't read Latin and French cannot reasonably expect to make sense of lineages such as the counts of Ponthieu, or ANY other family of the same era anywhere else. Supposing that Medieval Lands can be safely relied on for any detail that has not been specifically debunked is, frankly, beyond foolish. Peter Stewart

There is also a Turbeville Va. northwest of Danville Va. my granddaddy Frank James Turbeville was born in Cerro Gorda, NC in Columbus County. He farmed tobacco from Fair Bluff NC to Mullins SC. He and my grandma had 8 kids who've basically stayed in the low country all these years.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:46:10 PM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote: > The Caroline Cumberbatch who was buried 21 Oct 1842 at Holy Trinity Brampton was called "aged 54" I think it's safe to assume that the Caroline Chaloner who married Abraham Parry Cumberbatch in 1819 at Tonbridge, Kent, was the same Caroline Chaloner born at Guisborough Hall, Yorkshire in 1788. Rev. John William Clay, in his 'Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire with Additions' Vol. 2 (1907), pp. 234-235 (sub Chaloner of Guisborough), does not give any marriage for this Caroline, but as John Higgins has pointed out, Burke's Peerage 107th Edn. (2003), p. 1556 (sub Gisborough), does have: “3a Caroline; b 2 Oct 1788; m 13 April 1819 Abraham Parry Cumberbatch. He d 10 Oct 1840.” Given the rarity of the name - the only Caroline Chaloner who pops up when searching the birth range 1775-1800 on Find My Past is this Guisborough lady - plus the fact that Caroline's mother Emma (Harvey) Chaloner lived in Tunbridge Wells in her widowhood and died there, all the pieces fit together nicely. In this period, age was often given as how old you would turn on your next birthday. So Caroline Cumberbatch's age at her 1842 death we would consider today to be 53, since that was how old she had turned on her previous birthday, in 1842 her age could just as well have been considered 54 (in her 54th year), since that was how old she would turn on her next birthday. What's interesting is that no notice of this Cumberbatch-Chaloner marriage appears in the newspapers, or in Gentleman's Magazine, which explains why Rev. Clay, researching the Chaloner family decades later, was unaware of it. Caroline was a 30-year-old spinster when she married Cumberbatch, a widower four years her senior, with three children, aged 12, 10 and 7, from his first wife, who had died the year before he wed Caroline. The Cumberbatch family were not established landed gentry (there's no entry for them in Burke's Family Index), but instead had made their fortune through the ownership of several sugar plantations on Barbados (which also meant they owned slaves): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2549773/How-Benedict-Cumberbatchs-family-fortune-slavery-And-roles-films-like-12-Years-A-Slave-bid-atone-sins.html When the middle-aged Caroline wed Cumberbatch in 1819, the head of her family was her eldest brother Robert Chaloner (1776-1842), a prominent Yorkshire banker and M.P. We don't have enough information currently to determine whether Caroline's marriage was opposed by her family in any way, due either to the new-money status of Cumberbatch, or to political opposition to slaveowning (I cannot tell from his entry in HOP whether or not Robert Chaloner was an abolitionist). It's just as possible the marriage went under the radar due to the couple being middle-aged. There is no notice in the newspapers of the 1840 death of Abraham Parry Cumberbatch, nor of the 1842 death of his widow Caroline. But notice of the 1843 marriage of their son Robert William Cumberbatch (1822-1876) to Emily Lloyd did appear in newspapers. On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "equidistant". > I have one model that makes Anne Bowes a 7th great-granddaughter of Edward > IV -- but only a 3rd cousin, 7 times removed, of James II, King of Scots. > Perhaps you could show us the proposed direct linkage to James II, King of > Scots? Caroline (Chaloner) Cumberbatch has at least two, and probably three, lines of descent from Edward IV's illegitimate daughter Lady Margaret Lumley. She also has a line of descent from James II of Scotland through an illegitimate great-granddaughter of the monarch. Finally, Caroline should have been included in Ruvigny's 'Mortimer-Percy' volume (1911) on p. 236, alongside her parents and siblings. But since Rev. Clay was unaware of Caroline's marriage, it's no surprise that his contemporary Ruvigny was also unaware of it. So here are these five lines of descent, as I have them. Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Dame Lucy (1440-1466, descended from Edward I), and had a dau: A1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit. (b. c.1462) m. Thomas Lumley, Heir of Lumley Castle (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had a son A2 and two daus B2 & C2 (see below) A2) Roger Lumley of Ludworth Tower m. Isabel Radcliffe (descended from Edward I), and had A3) Agnes Lumley (d. 1564) m. John Lambton of Lambton Castle (c.1505-1549), and had A4) Robert Lambton of Lambton Hall (c.1530-1583) m. Frances Eure (b. c.1530, descended from Edward III), and had A5) Jane Lambton (c.1568-1648) m. Sir William Blakistoni of Gibside Hall (1562-1641), and had A6) Sir Ralph Blakiston, 1st Baronet of Gibside (c.1589-1650) m. Margaret Fenwick (descended from Edward III), and had A7) Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside (c.1630-1713) m. Anne Bowes (see B7 below), and had A8) ELIZABETH BLAKISTON, b. c.1670; bur. 5 July 1736 St Mary Church, South Bailey, Durham; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle (see D8 below), and had A9) ANNE BOWES, b. 24 Oct. 1695 Barnard Castle, Durham, bapt. 27 Oct. 1695 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 6 Nov. 1734; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall (see E17 below), and had A10) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 29 July 1714 Streatlam Castle, bap. there 1 Aug. 1714; d. 13 Feb. 1754 Guisborough Hall, bur. 18 Feb. 1754 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 1 Oct. 1741 St Edmund Church, Sedgefield, Durham, MARY FINNEY, b. c.1720; bur. 2 July 1787 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough, dau. of Dr. James Finney, Prebendary of Durham Cathedral 1706-27 (1687-1727) & Thomasine Burdon, and had A11) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. there 14 Aug. 1745, bap. 2 Sept. 1745 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. there 8 May 1793, bur. there 11 May 1793; m. 8 Aug. 1771 St James Church, Westminster, London, EMMA HARVEY, b. 29 Aug. 1753, bap. 21 Sept. 1753 St Anne Soho, London; d. 6 Aug. 1835 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, dau. of William Harvey of Rolls House, Chigwell, Essex (1714-1763, descended from Edward III) & Emma Skinner (1731-1767), and had A12) CAROLINE CHALONER, b. 2 Oct. 1788 Guisborough Hall, bap. 25 Nov. 1788 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. 15 Oct. 1842 Brompton, London, bur. 21 Oct. 1842 Holy Trinity Church, Brompton; m. 13 Apr. 1819 St Peter & St Paul Church, Tonbridge, Kent, as his 2nd wife, ABRAHAM PARRY CUMBERBATCH of The Broad, Hellingly, Sussex, bap. 29 Nov. 1784 St Peter, Barbados, West Indies; d. 10 Oct. 1840 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, son of Abraham Cumberbatch of Fairwater House, Taunton, Devon, sugar planter (1754-1796) & Mary Cumberbatch Sober (b. c.1765). They are 3xgreat-grandparents of actor Benedict Cumberbatch (b. 1976). B2) Anne Lumley m. 1) Robert, 4th Baron Ogle (c.1490-1532, descended from Edward III), and had B3) Agnes Ogle* m. Sir John Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1523-1572), and had B4) Sir Robert Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1542-1607) m. Dorothy Gray (c.1554-bef.1600, descended from Edward III), and had B5) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (c.1575-1628) m. Jane Hilton (see C6 below), and had B6) Mary Delaval (b. c.1600) m. Sir George Bowes of Bradley Hall (1596-1643), and had B7) Anne Bowes (c.1635-1701) m. Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside Hall (see A7 above) *For the reason why I believe Agnes (Ogle) Delaval has this parentage, instead of a generation further back, which is where published Ogle pedigrees have placed her, see footnote *1 in my blogpost: https://royaldescent.blogspot.ca/2015/06/edward-iv-descents-for-agnes-mary-nee.html C2) Sybil Lumley (c.1480-by 1526) m. William, 9th Lord Hilton (d. by 1537), and had C3) William, 11th Lord Hilton (c.1508-1562) m. Margaret Metcalfe (d. 1566), and had C4) William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600) m. Anne Yorke (descended from Edward I), and had C5) Thomas Hilton, Heir of Hilton Castle (c.1560-1598) m. Anne Bowes (c.1563-1608, descended from Edward I), and had C6) Jane Hilton (c.1584-1645) m. 1) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (see B5 above) James II of Scotland had a son: D1) Alexander Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany (c.1454-1485) m.(div.) 1) Lady Catherine Sinclair, and had D2) Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray (c.1472-1537) = unknown mistress, and had D3) Margaret Stewart, illegit. (c.1508-by 1550) m. 1) Patrick Graham/Graeme, 1st Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1507-1536), and had D4) George Graeme, 2nd Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1531-1576) m. Marjory Rollo (d. 1625), and had D5) Nichola Graeme (b. c.1565) m. Patrick Maxtone, 6th of Cultoquhey (d. 1618), and had D6) Rev. Anthony Maxton(e), Prebendary of Durham Cathedral (d. 1641) m. Anne Dudley of Chopwell, and had D7) ANNE MAXTON, b. c.1625; bur. 31 Dec. 1705 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; m. by 1648, THOMAS BOWES of Streatlam Castle, Durham, bap. 23 Dec. 1607 St Mary Church, Richmond, Yorkshire; bur. 9 Sept. 1661 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, son of Thomas Bowes of Streatlam Castle (c.1570-1636, descended from Edward I) & Anne Warcop (d. 1653), and had D8) Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle, bap. 6 Jan. 1657 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 12 Feb. 1707; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, ELIZABETH BLAKISTON (see A8 above) Edward III had a 2nd surviving son: E1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Lady Elizabeth de Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had E2) Lady Philippa Plantagenet of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had E3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy (1364-1403), and had E4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Neville (1403-1472, descended from Edward III), and had E5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had E6) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m. Lady Maud Herbert (c.1457-by 1487), and had E7) Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descended from Edward III), and had E8) Lady Margaret Percy (c.1495-1540) m. Henry Clifford, 1st Earl of Cumberland (1493-1542, descended from Edward III), and had E9) Lady Katherine Clifford (1518-1598) m. 1) John, 8th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1515-1549, descended from Edward III), and had E10) Margaret Scrope m. Sir John Constable of Burton Constable (1526-1579, descended from Edward III), and had E11) Sir Henry Constable of Burton Constable (c.1559-1608) m. Margaret Dormer (1562-1637), and had E12) Katherine Constable (c.1578-1626) m. Thomas, 1st Viscount Fairfax of Emly (1577-1636, descended from Edward III), and had E13) Hon. Mary Fairfax (c.1598-1636) m. Sir Thomas Layton of Sexhow Hall (1597-1651), and had E14) Mary Layton (c.1617-1657) m. Sir Henry Foulis, 2nd Baronet of Ingleby (c.1607-1643), and had E15) Sir David Foulis, 3rd Baronet of Ingleby (1633-1695) m. Katherine Watkins (1631-1718, descended from Edward III), and had E16) HONORA FOULIS, b. c.1663; d. 3 Oct. 1755 York, bur. 8 Oct. 1755 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 15 Aug. 1682 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow, Yorkshire, WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, bap. 16 Oct. 1655 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; bur. there 18 Feb. 1716, son of Sir Edward Challoner of Guisborough Hall (c.1625-1680) & Anne Ingoldsby (d. 1704, descended from Edward I), and had E17) EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 11 July 1683 Ingleby Manor, bap. 16 July 1683 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow; bur. there 8 Oct. 1737; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, Durham, ANNE BOWES (see A9 above) Cheers, ----Brad

Hi Brad el al, Being one of the descendants of Robert Temple of Ireland/New England fame my ggggg-grandfather)I am most interested in the knowledge you guys have and am keen to resolve the three or so generations between Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Bart, and Robert. I see this interaction is 5 years or so old but do you know if anyone has done the Irish research that maybe will link Thomas Temple, dd (Bourton-on-the-Water, etc.) to Robert T., born 1694 in Ireland? What I cannot get is how a 23 year old can be in business of taking ultimately 5 ships worth of emigrants from Ireland to America without some serious family money involved, which means there must be records of their 'doings' somewhere. I am going in circles with this but just have not the knowledge to progress it. Any info you may be able to share would be most appreciated. Many thanks, Alan Temple, Glenorchy, New Zealand Any On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:08:17 PM UTC+12, Brad Verity wrote: > It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the > attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en > > And again in July 2004: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en > > The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database): > > Edward I had > 1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of > Hereford (1276-1322), and had > 2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of > Ormond (1305-1338), and had > 3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c. > 1332-1387), and had > 4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange > (1361-1413), and had > 5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas > (d. 1420), and had > 6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of > Burford (c.1382-1435), and had > 7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall > (d. 1489), and had > 8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and > had > 9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had > 10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564), > and had > 11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c. > 1530-1601), and had > 12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of > Stowe (1567-1637), and had > 13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D. > Roosevelt > > Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation > #10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the > Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire > states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was > "Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester": > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up > > Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century > Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne > Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate > of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480 > would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born. > > According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of > Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10 > above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton > (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase > married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter > Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the > pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could > have been born is 1478. > > Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86? > Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology > also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas > Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either. > > The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is > here: > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up > > It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three > from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife > Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so > far, both by the first wife: > > 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source: > Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm) > > 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533; > will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio > in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870 > > Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was > married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564 > (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles > Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention > of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree, > make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife > Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with > additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree > ascribes to William himself). > > There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is > needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at > Generations 9 thru 11. > > Cheers, -------------Brad On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:08:17 PM UTC+12, Brad Verity wrote: > It was Robert O'Connor who first brought this line of descent to the > attention of the newsgroup, in September 2003: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/df24af1521458b47?hl=en > > And again in July 2004: > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/ec11c1b64302a3fc?hl=en > > The descent is as follows (with dates as I have them in my database): > > Edward I had > 1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of > Hereford (1276-1322), and had > 2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of > Ormond (1305-1338), and had > 3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c. > 1332-1387), and had > 4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange > (1361-1413), and had > 5) Alice Talbot (d. 1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, heir of Rotherwas > (d. 1420), and had > 6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, heir of > Burford (c.1382-1435), and had > 7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall > (d. 1489), and had > 8) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and > had > 9) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562), who is said to have had > 10) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564), > and had > 11) Hester Clifton (c.1535-1586) m. Miles Sandys of Fladbury (c. > 1530-1601), and had > 12) Hester Clifton (c.1569-1656) m. Sir Thomas Temple, 1st Baronet of > Stowe (1567-1637), and had > 13) Sir John Temple of Biddlesden (1593-1632), ancestor of Franklin D. > Roosevelt > > Generations 1 thru 9 above are sound. It's when we get to Generation > #10 that there are some red flags. As Robert pointed out in 2004, the > Clifton of Clifton pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Nottinghamshire > states that the wife of William Clifton of Barrington Court was > "Elizabeth d. of Thomas Blount of Sodington in Com. Worcester": > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun01britgoog#page/n32/mode/2up > > Unfortunately I don't yet have enough information on the 15th-century > Cornewalls of Burford to make estimates on the birthdates of Anne > Cornewall (Generation 8 above), but we do have an estimated birthdate > of "about 1459" for Anne's husband Peter Blount, so very likely 1480 > would be about the earliest their son Thomas could be born. > > According to the Clifton pedigree from the Visitation of > Nottinghamshire, William Clifton of Barrington Court (in Generation 10 > above) was the 4th of 9 sons of Sir Gervase Clifton of Clifton > (1438-1491) & his 1st wife Alice Neville. We know that Sir Gervase > married his second wife Agnes Constable (d. 1506), widow of Sir Walter > Griffith of Burton Agnes (d. 1481) on 10 September 1483. If the > pedigree is correct, this means the latest that William Clifton could > have been born is 1478. > > Is it possible that a man born by 1478 could live to 1564 and age 86? > Yes. Is it likely? No. Something seems off here. This chronology > also has William Clifton born before his own father-in-law Thomas > Blount. Again, not impossible, but not likely either. > > The Blount pedigree from the 1569 Visitation of Worcestershire is > here: > http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n33/mode/2up > > It assigns a total of 5 children to Thomas Blount of Sodington, three > from his first wife Katherine Stanford, and two from his second wife > Joyce Shirley. I can only locate dates for two of those children so > far, both by the first wife: > > 1) Walter Blount of Sodington Hall, died 7 September 1589. Source: > Hal Bradley (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > ~hwbradley/aqwg2808.htm) > > 2) Dorothy Blount married William Heath of Alvechurch (born by 1533; > will proved 3 February 1570), and survived him. Source: Heath's bio > in HOP: http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/heath-william-1533-6870 > > Unfortunately, the dates above do not support a sibling who was > married to a man born by 1478, and herself a grandmother by 1564 > (HOP's estimated birthdate for Edwin Sandys, eldest son of Miles > Sandys & Hester Clifton). That, combined with the lack of any mention > of a Clifton/Blount marriage in the 1569 Blount Visitation pedigree, > make the parentage ascribed to William Clifton of Barrington's wife > Elizabeth in the Clifton Visitation pedigree likely an error (with > additional chronological red flags on the parentage the pedigree > ascribes to William himself). > > There may be a Clifton/Blount connection but further research is > needed, and the descent above must be viewed as very unlikely at > Generations 9 thru 11. > > Cheers, -------------Brad

Em sábado, 18 de fevereiro de 2017 19:03:48 UTC, Jan Wolfe escreveu: > On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 1:47:59 PM UTC-5, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > Em sábado, 18 de fevereiro de 2017 18:43:34 UTC, Tim Forsythe escreveu: > > > Here is what I have for the Claypools. Ancestral Roots says the mother of Gwladus Dhu is Tangwystl, but I see a lot of line showing Joan of England. Is AR wrong? > ... > > Gwladys's mother is uncertain but it was more likely Joan since Joan gave Gwladys lands. > > Thanks for providing this reason. When were the lands given and under what circumstances? If Gwladys was born after Llewellyn and Joan were married in 1205, it seems that she would have been rather young when she married Reginald de Braose. Are there some documents about that marriage? Reginald was not a young man at the time of the marriage. Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but it is that the two manors which her father Prince Llywelyn had in marriage with her mother Joan were passed to Gwladys' husband Ralph de Mortimer following their marriage.