Dear John ~ Below are two additional records which pertain to the Stanhope family. The first document is dated 1514. It concerns an agreement between Richard Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell and his wife [Alice] and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. We learn from this document that Edmund Stanhope, the former husband of Alice, died sometime before 27 November 1514. The second document is undated but appears to refer to Alice, widow of Edmund Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell. It is taken from the online Discovery catalogue. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + Document 1: Online source: Manuscripts and Special Collections, University of Nottingham Archives Reference: Ne D 1913 Title: Award made by Anthony Fitzherbert and others relating to various lands in Nottinghamshire; 27 Nov. 1514 Date Of Creation: 27.11.1514 Content Description: First Party: Robert Brudenell and Humfrey Coningsby, two of the king's justices. Second Party: Sir Edward Dar[r]ell, knight, his wife and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. Third Party: Richard Stanhope. Notes that the two parties are bound to each other to abide by the decision of the arbiters; awards that (3) is to be 'made sure' of all those lands, tenements, rents and reversions in Treswell, Egmanton, South Leverton, Willoughby, Walesby and Elkesley [note that names have been modernised for reasons of consistency] which used to belong to Henry Stanhope; (3) is also to have the Dene Court rent and the lands called Cromwell Lands in Tuxford, Markham Clinton and Milton; awards that (2) is to have an annual rent charge of £20 issuing out of the lands; orders that the agreement between the two parties made before the Queen's Counsel relating to lands in Wellow, Grimston, East Retford, Allerton [Ollerton] and Boughton should be adhered to. Awards that all of Henry's other property in Nottinghamshire, with the exception of Haughton Manor are to be assured to Margaret Stanhope; agreement that (3) will pay to Sir Edward all the rents that were due until the date of this present; agreement by Sir Edward that he will produce all the relevant deeds. Language English + + + + + + + + + + Document 2: Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: SC 2/209/65 County: [Wilts]. Description of Courts: Estreats, &c., Court and Presentments. Courts of Alice Darell, widow, and of the feoffees of Edward Darell. Court of _ Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. Places: Wanborough; Bewley. 6 membranes or sheets. Note: Courts of Alice Darell, widow and of the feofees of Edward Darell. Court of - Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. 6 mm Date: Undated

Dear John ~ The first document below is an agreement dated 1507 between Richard Stanhope, son and heir of Sir Edward Stanhope, and Henry Stanhope, Esq., of Haughton, Nottinghamshire, and his son, Edmund Stanhope, Esq. The document comes from the Manuscripts and Special Collections of the University of Nottingham Archives. The second document below is taken from the online Discovery catalog. It refers to Margaret, daughter of Edmund Stanhope, in a record of a Chancery Proceedings dated 1518-1529. Margaret Stanhope was then of minor age, she having a guardian, William Skeffington, Knt. Inasmuch as Edmund Stanhope is not styled "Sir" or "knight" in either record below, it would seem probable that Edmund Stanhope was not ever knighted. The two documents below confirm that Edmund's given name was Edmund, not Edward. We learn from the first document that Henry Stanhope and his son, Edmund, were both living in 1507. We learn from the second document below that Edmund Stanhope died before 1518-1529. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + + + Document 1: Source: http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/DServe/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=NeAX%2fNeD%2f709-4477%2f1848-1957%2f1900-1920%2f1906&pos=4 Manuscripts and Special Collections, University of Nottingham Archives: Ne D 1906 First Party: Margaret [Stanley], Countess of Richmond and Derby. Second Party: Sir Edward Stanhope. Third Party: Henry Stanhope, esquire. Fourth Party: Edmund Stanhope, esquire. Recites that there have recently been 'variannces, troubles, and discordes' between Sir Edward Stanhope, Henry Stanhope and Edmund Stanhope relating to the manor of Houghton [Haughton] and to property in Walesby, Willoughby, Boughton, Kirton, Grimston and Wellow, and to land in Treswell and Egmanton [note that names have all been modernised for consistency]; notes that all parties agreed to arbitration by (1); awards that (2) shall assure the estate in Walesby, Willoughby, Boughton, Kirton, Grimston and Wellow to (3) for life, the remainder to (4) and his wife, afterwards to their heirs male; in default of such issue to the use of (4) and his heirs in fee. Part of the property in Egmanton to the value of £4 to be assured to (3) and his assignees for life, afterwards to Edmond and his wife for life in tail mail; in default of such issue to the use of to (2) and his heirs in fee; (2) to have the residue of the lands in Egmanton in fee; grants all the wood and underwood of Walesby to (2); also awards that (2) shall have the manor of Haughton with its appurtenances and two closes lying in the fields of Treswell. The document is dated 1 Mar. 22 Henry VII.(1507) + + + + + + + + + + + Document 2: Source: Discovery Catalogue Reference: C 1/576/24 Description: Short title: Stanhope v Brudenell. Plaintiffs: Richard Stanhope, esquire, son and heir of Edward Stanhope, knight. Defendants: Robert Brudenell, knight. Subject: Detention of deeds relating to the manor of `Cromwelles' in Tuxford, and messuages and land there and in Little Markham and Milton (Mylneton). (Annexed is an interpleader by William Skavyngton, knight, guardian of Margaret, daughter of Edmund Stanhope, and others). Nottinghamshire. 3 documents Date: 1518-1529 Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Dear John ~ Great work as ever. Thanks for sharing your findings with the newsgroup. Below is a weblink to the original marriage contract with an accompanying modern transcript for Henry Stanhope and Jane Recheford [Rochford], daughter of Harry Rechefort, Esq. This document is dated 28 September 1476. http://mssweb.nottingham.ac.uk/document-viewer/medieval-women/theme5/document2/09-6418m-5-2_1.asp Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 4:59:45 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > Looking at the full list of individuals and families for whom the same > work is cited by this compiler > (http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/showsource.php?sourceID=S88&tree=00&ioffset=&foffset=50) > suggests sloppy second-hand citation at best - I doubt very much that > Las Cases wasted space on this lot in his atlas (which the compiler, > apparently copy-pasting from Google Books, weirdly describes as "2 p., > 38 leaves of plates : geneal. tables, col. maps"). Good catch. Probably just took a tree that listed Las Cases as a source and applied it to all the details taken from that tree (or worse). taf

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 3:43:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > I wonder if only the Béarn names and succession have been taken from Las > Cases, and then false dates and the putative Sternberg connection have > been added from 'Personal knowledge of Kirk Larson' and/or 'The > Generations Network, "Ancestry Family Trees" database', both cited on > the family history webpage that was linked from my earlier post. I wondered about that, but if you follow it down a few generations Las Cases is still being cited (e g. here: http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/getperson.php?personID=I140412&tree=00 ). This may well be sloppy second-hand citation, but without seeing Las Cases who can tell (and the nearest copy is several hundred miles away, so I won't be the one checking). taf

I noticed somewhere that Ralph Rochford, son of Elizabeth (Scrope) (Bigod) (Rochford) St. John, and brother of Joan (Rochford) Stanhope, was living as late as 1511, though he was insane at the time. See also: https://books.google.com/books?id=nVI_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA279&dq=henry+rochforde+scroope&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic5Yr8scPMAhXGSCYKHbDoBOwQ6AEIJjAB#v=onepage&q=henry%20rochforde%20scroope&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA2-PA120&dq=%22oliver+st.+john%22+rochfort&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja5eXd48PMAhWM6CYKHd1tAJwQ6AEIPTAE#v=onepage&q=%22oliver%20st.%20john%22%20rochfort&f=false

On 5/05/2016 8:36 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > On 5/05/2016 4:54 AM, taf via wrote: >> (By the way, I am not convinced that Gisla/Guisla found in the south >> is directly equivalent to Gisela and not the name often represented as >> Willa.) > The name Guilia occurs - notably in the family of the lords of Lluca - > and is sometimes rendered as Gisla/Guisla. > > After they were separated for consanguinity Centule of Bearn's first > wife Gisla became a Cluniac nun in Burgundy, where the name Willa was > clearly different from Gisla. Do you know what she was called there? I can't find a contemporary reference to her in Burgundy, but in the mid-12th century she was recalled by Peter the Venerable, abbot of Cluny, as "maximae nobilitatis et singularis conversationis soror, Gisla nomine" - he would probably have called her Guilla instead if that had been her name (not that this counters the suggestion by Todd above, since she may not have been a southerner in the first place and as far as I know her name was not rendered Guisla in Béarn). Peter Stewart

True, p. 111 identifies the wife of Thomas Skeffington as "Margareta filia et haeres Edm. Stanhop MILES." (Miles meaning "knight.")

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 6:23:52 AM UTC-7, taf wrote: > Quite sure? no. All I can say is that I found an online genealogy that > cites various dates and the marriage of Diwisch and Gisela to this source, > as well as using it on the page for Gisela's 'brother' Gaston V (which > reinforces my suspicion that her father represents the 11th century > Centule V in disguise) but not being able to see the book, I can't be > certain they are using the citations properly. Oops, I meant to say Gaston IV here. The actual pedigree runs viscount Gaston III, viscount Centule V (m. Beatrix of Foix/Bigorre/Carcassonne), viscount Gaston IV, in the 11th century. The online pedigree runs count Gaston III, count Centule (m. Beatrix of Carcassonne), count Gaston IV (& Gisela m. Diwisch), in the 13th century. This is what leads me to suspect someone has duplicated the earlier generations of the pedigree to fill in the missing centuries. taf

This Edmund is also show in the Vis. of Leics, 1619 at https://ia800202.us.archive.org/27/items/visitationofcoun02camd/visitationofcoun02camd_bw.pdf. Doug Smith

Looking at the funeral certificates of both Dr. Thomas Percivall and his wife, Catherine, I note that both definitely state her identity as daughter of Anthony Ludford of Warwickshire. Presumably, however, the 1634 Bucks Visitation shows the descendants of her half-sister, Elizabeth Pope, daughter of Simon and Mary (___) Pope, who married John Bird. The line from Elizabeth Scrope, IF CORRECT, appears to go: Elizabeth Scrope, widow of Bigod (d. 1461) = (2) Henry Rochford of Stoke Rochford ; m. (3) Oliver St. John (by 2) Joan Rochford = (1477) to Henry Stanhope Edmond Stanhope = Alice [? Flye], who remarried to a Darrell Margaret Stanhope, coheiress = Thomas Skeffington Dame Elizabeth Bigod, nee Scrope, widow also of Rochford and St. John, mentions the King's mother (Margaret Beaufort) in her will of 1503, this lady being the mother of her third husband, Oliver St. John. The building of Henry VII's opulent tomb was begun in 1503 in the presence of "Maister Hugh Oldham chapleine to the Countesse of Darbie and Richmond the King's mother, Sir Edmond Stanhope, knight, and diuerse others." Is this "Sir Edmond Stanhope" possibly the son of Henry Stanhope by Joan Rochford? Looking through the Stanhope pedigree in the Notts. Visitation, I fail to see any other EDMUND, though there is an Edward at the right time: https://books.google.com/books?id=2_JMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=%22henricus+stanhop%22+%22soror+et%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxqty9tsPMAhWGNiYKHeeZBSwQ6AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=%22henricus%20stanhop%22%20%22soror%20et%22&f=false Kenneth Muir, in _Life and Letters of Sir Thomas Wyatt_, states that "Sir Edward Darrell married Jane, the daughter of Sir Richard Croft, then Mary, the daughter of Lord Fitzwalter, and finally Alice, the widow of Sir Edmond Stanhope." https://books.google.com/books?id=BNY6AAAAMAAJ&q=%22edmund+stanhope%22&dq=%22edmund+stanhope%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCp8aMusPMAhXLPCYKHb0nBYk4PBDoAQgtMAQ Here then is a claim that this Edmond was actually a SIR EDMOND Stanhope. [? Sir] Edmond Stanhope, husband of Alice ?Flye, was dead by April 1512, the date given by the HOP for her remarriage to Sir Edward Darrell, M.P. https://books.google.com/books?id=u_eIrJpc_T0C&pg=PA18&dq=%22edmund+stanhope%22+darrell&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi81a7ewcPMAhUG4iYKHYDaB40Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22edmund%20stanhope%22%20darrell&f=false The following passage, from the Nottinghamshire inquisitions post mortem, may refer to the young Edmond Stanhope, son of Henry and Joan (Rochford) Stanhope: "Humphrey Hersye and Thomas Molyneux by another charter dated ... January, 8 Henry vii [1491-2] granted the said yearly rent of 10 marks to John Stanhope, esquire, to have and take to him and his assigns for term of his life immediately after the death of Matilda, Lady Willoughby; and after her decease and the decease of the said John, they granted that the said yearly rent should remain to a certain Edmund Stanhope son and heir apparent of the said Henry Stanhope [mentioned above], to have and take to him and his assigns for term of his life; and after the decease of Matilda, Lady Willoughby, of John Stanhope and of Edmund Stanhope they granted that the said yearly rent do wholly remain to Henry Stanhope, esquire, to have and take to him and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten. Should Henry die without such heir then they granted that the yearly rent do wholly remain to the right heirs of the said John Stanhope forever." https://books.google.com/books?id=vGA1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22edmund+stanhope%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI2-Wtt8PMAhVIOiYKHbaKAQ0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22edmund%20stanhope%22&f=false Some details about Alice ?Flye, widow of Edmund Stanhope, afterwards wife of Sir Edward Darrell, are given here: https://books.google.com/books?id=bltIAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA228&dq=%22catharine+married+to+thomas+skeffington%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX1M62xcPMAhVE5iYKHWYKCIwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22catharine%20married%20to%20thomas%20skeffington%22&f=false

On 5/05/2016 4:54 AM, taf via wrote: > (By the way, I am not convinced that Gisla/Guisla found in the south > is directly equivalent to Gisela and not the name often represented as > Willa.) The name Guilia occurs - notably in the family of the lords of Lluca - and is sometimes rendered as Gisla/Guisla. After they were separated for consanguinity Centule of Bearn's first wife Gisla became a Cluniac nun in Burgundy, where the name Willa was clearly different from Gisla. Do you know what she was called there? Peter Stewart

Hi John Jonathan S. Mackman, The Lincolnshire Gentry and the Wars of the Roses, D. Phil. Thesis, Univ. of York, 1999, pps 279-301. Has some on these families (avail online). Rod Collins has some materials online about Nicholas de Cauntleou with the other explanation: http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/who-murdered-sir-william-cantilupe-and-why. >From Rod Collins: "There are some characteristics of Sir Nicholas II that we can be fairly certain of. That he was excessively tall and had a deep voice! Despite his seeming manliness, the cause of Katherine's panic was that her new hero had no external genitals! Here we have it in her own evidence as related by her father to the court at York: "Katarinam referre quod sepius temptavit manibus suis cum jacuit in lecto cum dicto Nicholao et ipse dormiebat locum genitalium dicti Nicholai et quod nulla palpare nee invenire potuit ibidem et quod locus in quo genitalia sua deberent esse est ita planus sicut manus hominis." In plain English it states that as he was showing no signs of sexual interest in her she waited until he fell asleep; she then felt with her hand in order to arouse him. To her horror all was smooth where his genitalia should have been as obvious as a man's hand! :shock: It seems that Sir Nicholas had a condition which today we term 'male pseudo-hermaphroditism ' This affects roughly one in six thousand male babies born. Apart from the height and voice characteristics, the adult cannot satisfactorily pro-generate and tends to die young. Sir Nicholas died at the age of 29. Sir Nicholas tried desperately to 'keep a lid on the revelation' by abducting Katherine and a group of her servants back to Greasley Castle and trying to force her to declare publicly that they had consummated the marriage. According to her father's priest, Thomas Waus, he showed her a room fitted with manacles where she would be detained if she did not drop the case and make the desired statement: "...Quicquid vos dicitis ego volo fateri vobiscum et in omnibus concordare." Sir Nicholas was probably horrified at the thought of having to undergo a physical examination by a committee of 'honestum matronae' - 'honest matrons'! Eventually Sir Nicholas calmed down and as brute force didn't seem to solve the problem, he decided to work within the law and determinedly pursued the support of the Apostolic See which is why he was in Avignon when he died." Doug May have come from the article you cited.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 2:01:14 AM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 1:57:51 PM UTC+10, taf wrote: > > I finally found citation for this marriage: > > > > Emmanuel-Auguste-Dieudonnâe, Count of Los Cases. Le Sage's Historical, > > Genealogical, Chronological and Geographical Atlas: Exhibiting All the > > Royal Families in Europe . . . (1813). I have been unable to find an > > edition accessible online. > > This was once a very famous work, in various editions and translations, > from *Atlas historique, généalogique, chronologique et géographique, par > A. Le Sage* by Emmanuel de Las Cases. It is worthless for genealogy, and > ? anyway did not purport to be based on original research. Are you quite > sure that this misinformation came from it? Quite sure? no. All I can say is that I found an online genealogy that cites various dates and the marriage of Diwisch and Gisela to this source, as well as using it on the page for Gisela's 'brother' Gaston V (which reinforces my suspicion that her father represents the 11th century Centule V in disguise) but not being able to see the book, I can't be certain they are using the citations properly. > The litmus test of a Google search is enough to eliminate "Diwisch II of > Sternberg in Bohemia" - this personage turns up in numerous websites but > is suspiciously hard to find in published literature. . . . > The actual genealogy of the Sternberg family bears very little resemblance > to this fantasy. I reached the same conclusion after looking at a number of German sources tracing the family back to Diwisch of Diwischau, whom I think was turned into this 'Diwisch II'. I was hoping to see Le Seve's before making an outright accusation of genealogical fraud regarding this pedigree, but that is basically what I am thinking now. taf

On Thursday, 5 May 2016 11:14:50 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > The applicable part of Rosie Bevan's article I cited earlier in this thread is: > > "In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33 > > 32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992, > Vol.2, pp.449-450). > 33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18." > > She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton. > > Doug Smith Dear Doug, There is a detailed account of the trial following the murder of Sir William Cantlpe in 1375 in Rosamund Sillem, ed., Some Sessions of the Peace in Lincolnshire: 1360-1375, Lincoln Record Society, 30 (1937), lxvi et seq. https://archive.org/details/publicationslinc30lincuoft Maud de Neville, husband of Sir William de Cauntelou was one of the sixteen people accused of his murder, or complicity in it. Sillem presumes that she and Thomas de Kydale, sheriff of Lincoln in 1374-75 and 1377-78, were lovers and conspired to murder William. Kydale's position helped to ensure that Maud and most of the other accused were acquitted. Two of William's servants were found guilty and executed. For other possible explanations for the motive of this murder, see: Frederik Pedersen, Murder, Mayhem and a very small Penis https://www.academia.edu/187393/Murder_Mayhem_and_a_very_small_Penis Regards, John

Would anyone please know why Sir George Howard (c.1519 to c.1580), son of Lord Edmund Howard and Joyce Culpepper would have rented at least four or five houses in London in January of 1553 from King Edward VI? I am guessing that he had dependents to house (family members). Also, as a single man, why was he so careful to acquire wealth if he did not have dependents or clear heirs? There is no record of him leaving a Will. Darrel Hockley

The applicable part of Rosie Bevan's article I cited earlier in this thread is: "In 1371 Sir Nicholas and Alice arranged to lease for 40 years, to their niece Maud Neville, sole heir of her parents, and her ill-fated first husband Sir William de Cantelupe 32 , "their purparty of Le Parkhall manor with appurtenances; saving all manner of rents, advowsons, profits of courts, their purparty of mills and the woods and pastures of their parks, and their purparty of Colebotirley, Asshouere, Chestirfeld, Aluy Wod, Grayhirstmore, Brampton Wode, and Molotgroue, of lands and tenements, rents and services in le Peek and of the reversion of Boythorp manor with appurtenances; rent, 66s. 8d. p.a., payable at the two terms of the year " 33 32. Maud and her lover are said to have murdered Sir William Cantelupe in 1375 (Roskell, 1992, Vol.2, pp.449-450). 33. Manchester University: Crutchley Muniments CRU/18." She had earlier stated that Alice's sister Joan was married to Robert Neville of Scotton. Doug Smith

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 1:57:51 PM UTC+10, taf wrote: > I finally found citation for this marriage: > > Emmanuel-Auguste-Dieudonnâe, Count of Los Cases. Le Sage's Historical, > Genealogical, Chronological and Geographical Atlas: Exhibiting All the > Royal Families in Europe . . . (1813). I have been unable to find an > edition accessible online. This was once a very famous work, in various editions and translations, from *Atlas historique, généalogique, chronologique et géographique, par A. Le Sage* by Emmanuel de Las Cases. It is worthless for genealogy, and anyway did not purport to be based on original research. Are you quite sure that this misinformation came from it? The litmus test of a Google search is enough to eliminate "Diwisch II of Sternberg in Bohemia" - this personage turns up in numerous websites but is suspiciously hard to find in published literature. See for instance the welter of nonsense here: http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/getperson.php?personID=I140431&tree=00 placing the family in Lippe-Detmold, rather than in Moravia where they belonged, and making his eldest son Albrecht I. The actual genealogy of the Sternberg family bears very little resemblance to this fantasy. According to Anton Rolleder in 'Die mährischen Herren von Sternberg', *Zeitschrift des deutschen Vereines für die Geschichte Mährens und Schlesiens* 5 (1901), Albrecht I was a son of Zdeslaus I, the founder of the Sternberg lineage, whose father Diwisch of Diwischau occurs in 1240. Albrecht I was father of Diwisch I who was count from 1305. No names or family origins of these mens' wives seem to be recorded. The book by Las Cases will be in many reference libraries, but I doubt that it can be viewed online since it is available in an extremely expensive re-edition (valued for cartography, not genealogy). It's almost certainly not worth the trouble to seek out a copy. Peter Stewart

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 1:57:51 PM UTC+10, taf wrote: > I finally found citation for this marriage: > > Emmanuel-Auguste-Dieudonnâe, Count of Los Cases. Le Sage's Historical, Genealogical, Chronological and Geographical Atlas: Exhibiting All the Royal Families in Europe . . . (1813). I have been unable to find an edition accessible online. > > taf Thanks to those who contributed. Is this book online somewhere (anyone) ? Is he a reliable source of information ? Very helpful info all the same. Thanks

More Neville of Scotton This is from The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester v.4 pt.1. Nichols, John, 1745-1826, Neville info on pgs, 156-161, pedigree 167 The Pedigree is very inaccurate in earlier generations. Baker did mention he took some of his info from this pedigree. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000032377101;view=1up;seq=15 This is a link to the whole digital series of Nichols's books that were at one time next to impossible to find https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100002521