Dear John ~ Below is an abstract of a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1525 involving Sir Edward Darell, Knt. [husband of Alice, widow of Edmund Stanhope], and Richard Stanhope, Esq., of Haughton, Nottinghamshire. Yesterday I reported that Sir Edward and Richard were earlier involved in an agreement dated 1514. In 1525 Edward Darell, Knt. sued Richard Stanhop, Esq., of Haughton, Nottinghamshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £100. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1046, image 48d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1046/bCP40no1046dorses/IMG_0048.htm). Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear John ~ "John Leland, writing in 1538, refers to 'Robert Englyshe and Thomas Thurland, Maiors of Nottingham, riche merchants, buryed in St. Maire's Churche.'" END OF QUOTE. Reference: Hood, An Account of St. Mary's Church, Nottingham (1910): 23. The above mentioned Thomas Thurland is evidently the Thomas Thurland, the great merchant of Nottingham, who died in 1471. If Leland is correct, then Thomas Thurland was buried in the church of St. Mary's, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire. Power and Postan, Studies in English Trade in the 15th Century (1933): 87 indicates that Thomas Thurland was Mayor of the Staple of Calais in or about 1441. "Thomas Thurland, merchant and burgess of Nottingham, put his son Richard into Lincoln's Inn in the 1450s but the family remained town-based and Richard's son (and Thomas's heir) Thomas junior was mayor of Nottingham in 1484-5." Reference: Thomson, Towns and townspeople in the fifteenth century (1988): 31. In 1484 Thomas Thurland, Esq., son and heir of Richard Thurland, son of Thomas Thurland, merchant, released to the Mayor, Sheriffs, Burgesses and men of Nottingham his right in the piece of vacant land near the Gild Hall bequeathed to the town by John Pool's will. Reference: Records of the Borough of Nottingham, 2 (1883): 421, which may be viewed at the following weblink: https://books.google.com/books?id=1gVNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA421 The 1484 document was witnessed by Gervase Clifton, Knt., which individual was the step-father of the grantor, Thomas Thurland, Esq. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear John ~ You're quite correct. It appears that Henry Rochford's first wife, Joan (or Jane), was the daughter of Thomas Thurland, merchant, of Nottingham (died 1471) and his wife, Dame Joan (died 1479). It also appears that Joan (or Jane) Thurland was the mother of Henry Rochford's daughter, Joan (or Jane), who married Henry Stanhope, Esq. Elsewhere I find that Thomas Thurland and his wife, Dame Joan, were remembered in the 1491 will of Sir Gervase Clifton, Knt., of Clifton, Nottinghamshire. See Testamenta Eboracensia 4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 64-71 (will of Gervase Clifton, Knt.), which is available at the following weblink: https://books.google.com/books?id=YFo4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA64 I believe Sir Gervase Clifton, Knt. (died 1491) was the husband of Alice Neville, widow of Richard Thurland, Esq., which Richard was the son and heir apparent of Thomas Thurland, merchant, of Nottingham [died 1471], by his wife, Dame Joan (died 1479). Inasmuch as Thomas Thurland's wife, Joan, is styled "Dame Joan" in records after 1476, this infers that she must have had another husband who was a knight sometime in or before 1476. This could be an earlier husband, or a husband she married after Thomas Thurland's death in 1471. I suppose it was a later husband who was the knight, as Joan seems to have been the mother of Thomas Thurland's children. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Hi John There are a lot of conflicts in the secondary sources. At least three Thomas' in a short period of time. Based on the above references, and only for discussion purposes, one possible reconstruction is: 1. Edmund 2. Thomas I d. 1464 father of: 2a. Thomas II d. 1473/4 m Joan dc 1478 (also m. Hunt, who appears to have daughter Joan as well) parents of Joan m. Henry Rochford with daughter Joan (although Joan Thurland could have been by earlier wife..) 2b. Richard d. 1455 m. Alice Neville parents of 3. 2c. nn 3. Thomas III d. 1498 m. Joan (Dorothy?) Willoughby five children including 4. Thomas IV d. 1523 m. Isabel Welby parents of 5. 5. Edward m. Olive Breton descendants as carried on in The Visitations of the County of Nottingham in the Years 1569 and 1614: With ...William Flower, Sir Richard Saint-George, Richard Mundy, John Withie, p 154. There are also interesting tie-ins to the Danby and Armstrong families. The above harmonizes some of pedigrees with all the attendant risks of that approach. Without more primary docs. I am not sure how these conflicts can be resolved. Doug Smith

Is the Dame Jane Thurland, widow of Thomas Thurland, this same Jane Neville (of Rolleston) shown in a pedigree as the wife of "Thomas Therland of Gamston"? https://books.google.com/books?id=fDBSgpgDmRIC&pg=PA154&dq=%22robert+willoughby%22+thurland&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNm7SonMbMAhWBYyYKHcogA4MQ6AEIMTAE#v=onepage&q=%22robert%20willoughby%22%20thurland&f=false It looks like the Jane/ Joan Willoughby, sister of Sir Henry, was wife to a later Thurland and couldn't be ancestral to Stanhope and Skeffington. In another complication, I see that Dame Jane Thurland's will from 1477 (printed in a footnote to her husband's) apparently mentions no Rochfords, while mentioning her daughter "Joan Hunt." Did she have two daughters Joan? Or was she a second wife with children of her own, including this Joan Hunt? Or is Joan Hunt possibly only her goddaughter?

The will of Thomas Thurland, dated 1471, mentions "To John Rochfort, son of Johane my daughter, late the wyff of Herry Rochford squire, xx li. To Johane the doughtir of the said Johane xx li." https://books.google.com/books?id=rzA8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA186&dq=%22to+johane+the+doughtir+of+the+said%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWuufjicbMAhWMQCYKHdItCpkQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20johane%20the%20doughtir%20of%20the%20said%22&f=false Therefore, it looks like Maddison's _Lincolnshire Pedigrees_ is correct in assigning Henry Rochford (who married, second, Elizabeth Scrope) a first wife, Joan ___. https://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA829&dq=%22henry+rochford%22+stoke+scrope&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxg4SGisbMAhWF5yYKHXM1ASQQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=%22henry%20rochford%22%20stoke%20scrope&f=false So I think this allows us to know that Henry Rochford's first wife was Joan Thurland. And that Joan Rochford (who m. Henry Stanhope) was not the daughter of Elizabeth Scrope, but of Joan Thurland.

Would this apply? "The Willoughby family was connected with the Thurland family through the marriage of Jane (or Joan), sister of Sir Henry Willoughby, to Thomas Thurland who died 5 January, 1473/4." https://books.google.com/books?id=pZJnAAAAMAAJ&q=%22thomas+thurland%22+joan&dq=%22thomas+thurland%22+joan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN5fach8bMAhWBTCYKHfS7BAQQ6AEIODAF

On 6/05/2016 10:17 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > On 6/05/2016 10:06 AM, taf via wrote: >> On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 4:59:45 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: >> >>> Looking at the full list of individuals and families for whom the same >>> work is cited by this compiler >>> (http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/showsource.php?sourceID=S88&tree=00&ioffset=&foffset=50) >>> suggests sloppy second-hand citation at best - I doubt very much that >>> Las Cases wasted space on this lot in his atlas (which the compiler, >>> apparently copy-pasting from Google Books, weirdly describes as "2 p., >>> 38 leaves of plates : geneal. tables, col. maps"). >> Good catch. Probably just took a tree that listed Las Cases as a source and applied it to all the details taken from that tree (or worse). >> >> > After looking at plate images from the atlas on AbeBooks, it seems > impossible that such unimportant individuals as "Mrs Leo von der Aa" > could be included, much less these jokers in the pack > http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/familygroup.php?familyID=F54470&tree=00. > > Of these I especially enjoyed "Baron Theoderich von Bosenhagen", http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/getperson.php?personID=I139248&tree=00, who was allegedly born in 1103 and died "Yes, date unknown". Surely Las Cases can't be responsible for that supposition, when for all he could have known Baron Theoderich might have been sleeping in a cave somewhere in "Bosenhagen, Hessen-Nassau, Preussen" waiting for his moment to reappear. Peter Stewart

This stuff concerns Matthew Clarkson, an immigrant to New York, around 1690/1700. He was a maternal grandson of Matthew Kenrick, citizen of London, who married Rebecca Percivall, daughter of Dr. Thomas Percivall, M.D., by his wife Catherine Ludford of Warwickshire.

All very interesting, Douglas. Who is the Dame Jane Thurland mentioned as a parental/ guardian figure in the marriage contract of Stanhope and Rochford? Is that possibly Jane/ Joan's paternal grandmother who had remarried? I guess the Margaret Stanley, countess of Richmond and Darby, in the University of Nottingham Archives (Ne D 1906) doc. would be the king's mother, going by her married surname of Stanley, rather than by Beaufort? Or was that lady dead by then? I was a bit mixed up earlier in stating that the countess of Richmond and Darby was the mother of Oliver St. John, 3rd husband of Elizabeth Scrope. She was _really_ the uterine half-sister of Oliver St. John, a son of her mother Margaret Beauchamp, duchess of Somerset, by an earlier husband.

On 6/05/2016 10:06 AM, taf via wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 4:59:45 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > >> Looking at the full list of individuals and families for whom the same >> work is cited by this compiler >> (http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/showsource.php?sourceID=S88&tree=00&ioffset=&foffset=50) >> suggests sloppy second-hand citation at best - I doubt very much that >> Las Cases wasted space on this lot in his atlas (which the compiler, >> apparently copy-pasting from Google Books, weirdly describes as "2 p., >> 38 leaves of plates : geneal. tables, col. maps"). > Good catch. Probably just took a tree that listed Las Cases as a source and applied it to all the details taken from that tree (or worse). > > After looking at plate images from the atlas on AbeBooks, it seems impossible that such unimportant individuals as "Mrs Leo von der Aa" could be included, much less these jokers in the pack http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/familygroup.php?familyID=F54470&tree=00. I wonder if Las Cases was not used inaccurately only for geography - resulting in such rubbish as identifying Sternberg with the place of the same name in Prussia rather than correctly in Moravia. Peter Stewart

On 6/05/2016 9:44 AM, taf via wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 3:43:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > >> I wonder if only the Béarn names and succession have been taken from Las >> Cases, and then false dates and the putative Sternberg connection have >> been added from 'Personal knowledge of Kirk Larson' and/or 'The >> Generations Network, "Ancestry Family Trees" database', both cited on >> the family history webpage that was linked from my earlier post. > I wondered about that, but if you follow it down a few generations Las Cases is still being cited (e g. here: http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/getperson.php?personID=I140412&tree=00 ). > This may well be sloppy second-hand citation, but without seeing Las Cases who can tell (and the nearest copy is several hundred miles away, so I won't be the one checking). > Looking at the full list of individuals and families for whom the same work is cited by this compiler (http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/showsource.php?sourceID=S88&tree=00&ioffset=&foffset=50) suggests sloppy second-hand citation at best - I doubt very much that Las Cases wasted space on this lot in his atlas (which the compiler, apparently copy-pasting from Google Books, weirdly describes as "2 p., 38 leaves of plates : geneal. tables, col. maps"). Peter Stewart

On 5/05/2016 11:23 PM, taf via wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 2:01:14 AM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: >> The actual genealogy of the Sternberg family bears very little resemblance >> to this fantasy. > I reached the same conclusion after looking at a number of German sources tracing the family back to Diwisch of Diwischau, whom I think was turned into this 'Diwisch II'. > It certainly looks that way, and this in itself is enough to dismiss the whole scheme - Diwisch of Diwischau had NOTHING to do with Sternberg, a territorial designation taken from a castle built by his son Zdeslaus I (died by 1267) on devastated land between Olomouc and Troppau that was granted in reward for defending against the Cumans in 1253. Zdeslaus I's father Diwisch of Diwischau occurs from 1218 and was dead by 1240. Peter Stewart

On 6/05/2016 5:22 AM, taf via wrote: > On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 6:23:52 AM UTC-7, taf wrote: > >> Quite sure? no. All I can say is that I found an online genealogy that >> cites various dates and the marriage of Diwisch and Gisela to this source, >> as well as using it on the page for Gisela's 'brother' Gaston V (which >> reinforces my suspicion that her father represents the 11th century >> Centule V in disguise) but not being able to see the book, I can't be >> certain they are using the citations properly. > > Oops, I meant to say Gaston IV here. > > The actual pedigree runs > > viscount Gaston III, > viscount Centule V (m. Beatrix of Foix/Bigorre/Carcassonne), > viscount Gaston IV, in the 11th century. > > The online pedigree runs > > count Gaston III, > count Centule (m. Beatrix of Carcassonne), > count Gaston IV (& Gisela m. Diwisch), in the 13th century. > > This is what leads me to suspect someone has duplicated the earlier generations of the pedigree to fill in the missing centuries. > > I wonder if only the Béarn names and succession have been taken from Las Cases, and then false dates and the putative Sternberg connection have been added from 'Personal knowledge of Kirk Larson' and/or 'The Generations Network, "Ancestry Family Trees" database', both cited on the family history webpage that was linked from my earlier post. In any case there is a double imposture going on, messily dragging Béarn individuals forward from the 11th century to meet up in the 13th with Sternbergs press-ganged back from the 14th (the second Diwisch in the lineage as carefully traced by Rolleder occurs in charters from 1305 to 1330, with his wife's name unknown and explicitly no offspring). Peter Stewart

I'm descended from Walter de Cornwall through his daughter Margaret and his marriage to James Peverell. The line passes from the Peverells to the de Hungerfords who are an interesting bunch in themselves, marrying into the Grey family of Lady Jane Grey notariety

On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 5:10:12 PM UTC+10, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: > Greetings, > > I am curious if there is an authoritative pedigree of the "de Rie" > family? I have seen multiple references and narratives regarding Eudo > Dapifer, his brothers and his father Hubert I "de Rie". However, I > have not seen any authoritative evidence of a pedigree beyond Hubert. > I would be appreciative of any insight into whether this has been > documented, or otherwise sensibly conjectured. Many thanks. The most thorough study I know of is 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques' by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, originally published in *Mémoires de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et belles-lettres de Bayeux* 8 (1879) 81-196 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k433567m/f106), and reprinted in the series Monographies des villes et villages de France (Paris, 2012). I should have remembered to check this when I was looking for a collateral relationship as suggested by Round - it turns out that Eudo's brother Radulf did have male heirs of his own, so what I had thought a limited possibility is in fact a dead end. Peter Stewart

Just as a minor question. The Clarksons, is this a Gateway family or is it the family of the eponymous Jeremy Clarkson of BBC notoriety - this would be very interesting as little is known about his paternal ancestors, except that his father was Edward Grenville Clarkson (1932-1994). Peter In a message dated 06/05/2016 04:05:05 GMT Daylight Time, gen-medieval@rootsweb.com writes: Dear John ~ Below are two additional records which pertain to the Stanhope family. The first document is dated 1514. It concerns an agreement between Richard Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell and his wife [Alice] and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. We learn from this document that Edmund Stanhope, the former husband of Alice, died sometime before 27 November 1514. The second document is undated but appears to refer to Alice, widow of Edmund Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell. It is taken from the online Discovery catalogue. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + Document 1: Online source: Manuscripts and Special Collections, University of Nottingham Archives Reference: Ne D 1913 Title: Award made by Anthony Fitzherbert and others relating to various lands in Nottinghamshire; 27 Nov. 1514 Date Of Creation: 27.11.1514 Content Description: First Party: Robert Brudenell and Humfrey Coningsby, two of the king's justices. Second Party: Sir Edward Dar[r]ell, knight, his wife and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. Third Party: Richard Stanhope. Notes that the two parties are bound to each other to abide by the decision of the arbiters; awards that (3) is to be 'made sure' of all those lands, tenements, rents and reversions in Treswell, Egmanton, South Leverton, Willoughby, Walesby and Elkesley [note that names have been modernised for reasons of consistency] which used to belong to Henry Stanhope; (3) is also to have the Dene Court rent and the lands called Cromwell Lands in Tuxford, Markham Clinton and Milton; awards that (2) is to have an annual rent charge of £20 issuing out of the lands; orders that the agreement between the two parties made before the Queen's Counsel relating to lands in Wellow, Grimston, East Retford, Allerton [Ollerton] and Boughton should be adhered to. Awards that all of Henry's other property in Nottinghamshire, with the exception of Haughton Manor are to be assured to Margaret Stanhope; agreement that (3) will pay to Sir Edward all the rents that were due until the date of this present; agreement by Sir Edward that he will produce all the relevant deeds. Language English + + + + + + + + + + Document 2: Source: Online Discovery catalogue Reference: SC 2/209/65 County: [Wilts]. Description of Courts: Estreats, &c., Court and Presentments. Courts of Alice Darell, widow, and of the feoffees of Edward Darell. Court of _ Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. Places: Wanborough; Bewley. 6 membranes or sheets. Note: Courts of Alice Darell, widow and of the feofees of Edward Darell. Court of - Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. 6 mm Date: Undated ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks people. Good discussion. It can only be supposed to be a concoction in more ways than one. Thanks again

Greetings, I am curious if there is an authoritative pedigree of the "de Rie" family? I have seen multiple references and narratives regarding Eudo Dapifer, his brothers and his father Hubert I "de Rie". However, I have not seen any authoritative evidence of a pedigree beyond Hubert. I would be appreciative of any insight into whether this has been documented, or otherwise sensibly conjectured. Many thanks. Cheers, Pete

Have you researched the purported Stanhope connection to George Walker? Pat Sent from my iPhone > On May 5, 2016, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Richardson via <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Dear John ~ > > Below are two additional records which pertain to the Stanhope family. The first document is dated 1514. It concerns an agreement between Richard Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell and his wife [Alice] and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. We learn from this document that Edmund Stanhope, the former husband of Alice, died sometime before 27 November 1514. > > The second document is undated but appears to refer to Alice, widow of Edmund Stanhope and Sir Edward Darell. It is taken from the online Discovery catalogue. > > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah > > > + + + + + + + + > Document 1: > > Online source: Manuscripts and Special Collections, University of Nottingham Archives > > Reference: Ne D 1913 > > Title: Award made by Anthony Fitzherbert and others relating to various lands in Nottinghamshire; 27 Nov. 1514 > > Date Of Creation: 27.11.1514 > > Content Description: First Party: Robert Brudenell and Humfrey Coningsby, two of the king's justices. > > Second Party: Sir Edward Dar[r]ell, knight, his wife and her daughter, Margaret Stanhope. > > Third Party: Richard Stanhope. > > Notes that the two parties are bound to each other to abide by the decision of the arbiters; awards that (3) is to be 'made sure' of all those lands, tenements, rents and reversions in Treswell, Egmanton, South Leverton, Willoughby, Walesby and Elkesley [note that names have been modernised for reasons of consistency] which used to belong to Henry Stanhope; (3) is also to have the Dene Court rent and the lands called Cromwell Lands in Tuxford, Markham Clinton and Milton; awards that (2) is to have an annual rent charge of £20 issuing out of the lands; orders that the agreement between the two parties made before the Queen's Counsel relating to lands in Wellow, Grimston, East Retford, Allerton [Ollerton] and Boughton should be adhered to. > > Awards that all of Henry's other property in Nottinghamshire, with the exception of Haughton Manor are to be assured to Margaret Stanhope; agreement that (3) will pay to Sir Edward all the rents that were due until the date of this present; agreement by Sir Edward that he will produce all the relevant deeds. > > Language English > > + + + + + + + + + + > > Document 2: > > Source: Online Discovery catalogue > > Reference: SC 2/209/65 > > County: [Wilts]. > > Description of Courts: Estreats, &c., Court and Presentments. Courts of Alice Darell, widow, and of the feoffees of Edward Darell. Court of _ Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. > > Places: Wanborough; Bewley. > > 6 membranes or sheets. > > Note: Courts of Alice Darell, widow and of the feofees of Edward Darell. Court of - Mawnsell, esq., and Mary his wife. 6 mm > > Date: Undated > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message