Hi Peter, Many thanks for your extensive insight and analysis. I am unfamiliar, to a large extent, with the individuals referenced in your last few posts. When convenient, I would appreciate it if you would please advise me of the following: 1. Does the publication 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques', by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, establish or propose the wife (wives), parentage and/or further ancestry of Hubert de Rie? I am embarrassed to admit my unilingualism renders me unable to meaningfully review the article for which you kindly provided the link; 2. Is it the abovementioned Pezet article that references Eudo du Capel being conflated with Eudo Dapifer? I assume it is in Note 2 on p. 130; 3. What relationships can be established (unlikely) or reasonably conjectured based on the Eudes au Capel v. Eudo de Rie discussion?; and 4. For further discussion regarding Orderic Vitalis' identification of Eudo au Capel v. Eudo de Rie, please see p. 124, Note 2 (which continues on p. 125) of 'The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis, Volume II: Books III and IV', edited by Marjorie Chibnall - https://books.google.ca/books?id=s6Vlc8FJEksC&pg=PA124&dq=%22THURSTAN+HALDUP%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibh5Lf_83MAhUozIMKHaC4CasQ6AEIJzAC#v=onepage&q=%22THURSTAN%20HALDUP%22&f=false. Again, I am not familiar enough with this material to provide any useful comment thereon. Cheers, Pete

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 2:13:11 PM UTC-5, Bronwen Edwards wrote: > Apologies for getting the link wrong! I go there so often I just have it on my desktop. Bronwen No need to apologize. It all worked out and I'm overwhelmed with the information there. :) Kathy

Apologies for getting the link wrong! I go there so often I just have it on my desktop. Bronwen

On 9/05/2016 7:47 AM, Leo van de Pas via wrote: > The truth, like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder. > > Dear Newsgroup ~ > > Over the course of the past several years, I've posted evidence which conclusively shows that the baronial Fitz Alan family dropped the surname, Fitz Alan, in favor of Arundel > > Douglas Richardson indeed has proposed his believe several times, but conclusively? I don't think so. Just check The Complete Peerage, Burke's Peerage and other works. > > In the archieves of Gen-Med these discussions can be found. > > When the male line of the Earls of Arundel became extinct the title and properties went to the Howard family, and they combined the two family names and now are known as Arundel-Howard......? Or are they? > > It would be so much better for Richardson to let sleeping dogs be. > To be fair he doesn't pretend that Arundel permanently effaced Fitzalan, only that this happened for a few centuries. His view appears to be that we are bound today to call people by the surname they preferred, even though this may be confusing, while at the same time we are not permitted to use their given names if these happen to coincide with Latin forms, even though this may avoid confusion. The possession of Arundel castle was held to underpin possession of the comital title, so it was a bit more compelling for them to drop an antiquated "Fitz" surname in the early-14th century than for other families who may have been equally embarrassed by theirs. The molehill that Douglas Richardson has busily turned into a mountain of posts was actually kicked over before the Howards inherited the title. Peter Stewart

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 2:13:55 PM UTC-4, John Watson wrote: > On Monday, 9 May 2016 17:13:42 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > > Also shown in a number of places online: > > > > > > > > The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281. > > > > "William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister." > > > > Jury determined Alice a bastard. > > > > Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham. > > > > Doug Smith > > The Erghum pedigree is briefly as follows: > > 1. Malger de Erghum married Joan, sister of Osbert de Arches > > 2. Walter de Erghum > > 3. William de Erghum (d. aft. 1322) m. Eustache > > 4. William de Erghum (d. bef. 2 Apr 1347) m. Sibyl dau. of Henry fitz Aucher > > 5. William de Erghum (d. aft 1405) m. Katherine dau. of Hugh de Cressy > > 6a. Juliana de Erghum (d.s.p) m. John Aske of Ousthorpe (d. 2 Jun 1429) (first wife) > 6b. Sibyl de Erghum (d. abt 1408) m. Robert Cumberworth (d. 1405) > > Regards, > John Hi John That is very helpful, I had just started to assemble one. Doug Smith

On Monday, 9 May 2016 17:13:42 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > Also shown in a number of places online: > > > > The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281. > > "William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister." > > Jury determined Alice a bastard. > > Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham. > > Doug Smith The Erghum pedigree is briefly as follows: 1. Malger de Erghum married Joan, sister of Osbert de Arches 2. Walter de Erghum 3. William de Erghum (d. aft. 1322) m. Eustache 4. William de Erghum (d. bef. 2 Apr 1347) m. Sibyl dau. of Henry fitz Aucher 5. William de Erghum (d. aft 1405) m. Katherine dau. of Hugh de Cressy 6a. Juliana de Erghum (d.s.p) m. John Aske of Ousthorpe (d. 2 Jun 1429) (first wife) 6b. Sibyl de Erghum (d. abt 1408) m. Robert Cumberworth (d. 1405) Regards, John

On 6/05/2016 9:05 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 5:10:12 PM UTC+10, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I am curious if there is an authoritative pedigree of the "de Rie" >> family? I have seen multiple references and narratives regarding Eudo >> Dapifer, his brothers and his father Hubert I "de Rie". However, I >> have not seen any authoritative evidence of a pedigree beyond Hubert. >> I would be appreciative of any insight into whether this has been >> documented, or otherwise sensibly conjectured. Many thanks. > The most thorough study I know of is 'Les seigneurs de Ryes en Bessin: études historiques' by Romain-Auguste-Laurent Pezet, originally published in *Mémoires de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et belles-lettres de Bayeux* 8 (1879) 81-196 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k433567m/f106), and reprinted in the series Monographies des villes et villages de France (Paris, 2012). > > I should have remembered to check this when I was looking for a collateral relationship as suggested by Round - it turns out that Eudo's brother Radulf did have male heirs of his own, so what I had thought a limited possibility is in fact a dead end. > This has been challenged off-list, on the grounds that Pezet identified Eudo de Ryes (who died in 1120) as the dapifer whose nephew Robert of La Haye, son of Radulf, confirmed in 1105 the donations of Turstin Haldup and his son Eudes au Capel in 1056/64 founding Lessay abbey. The origins of the seigneurial family of La Haye are obscure, but in my opinion Pezet was most probably correct - the alternative identification of Robert's uncle Eudo, the dapifer referred to in 1105 when Eudo de Ryes certainly held the office, with Eudes au Capel who had died in 1089 makes much less sense. Apart from the peculiarity this would read into the charter text in question, there is a chronological difficulty: Eudes au Capel was the father of Radulf who became count of Aversa in 1045. In other words, Eudes must have been a very old man when he died in 1089 and it is somewhat unlikely that his son Radulf returned to Normandy and became sensechal to the count of Mortain as was Radulf the father of Robert of La Haye. It seems more plausible to me that Robert's father Radulf was the brother of Eudo de Ryes, that he was sensechal of Mortain as well as castellan of Nottingham and very probably lord of Crick. How they were related to Turstin Haldup and his son Eudes au Capel is a mystery - the simplest explanation is that Hubert of Ryes, father of Eudo and Radulf, married a sister of Eudes au Capel. Peter Stewart

On Monday, 9 May 2016 17:13:42 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > Also shown in a number of places online: > > > > The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281. > > "William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister." > > Jury determined Alice a bastard. > > Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham. > > Doug Smith The Erghum pedigree is briefly as follows: See: G. Wrottesley, Pedigrees from The Plea Rolls (London, 1905), 535. 1. Malger de Erghum married Joan, sister of Osbert de Arches 2. Walter de Erghum 3. William de Erghum (d. aft. 1322) m. Eustache 4. William de Erghum (d. bef. 2 Apr 1347) m. Sibyl dau. of Henry fitz Aucher 5a. Juliana de Erghum (d.s.p) m. John Aske of Ousthorpe (d. 2 Jun 1429) (first wife) 5b. Sibyl de Erghum (d. abt. 1408) m. Robert Cumberworth (d. 1405) Isabel was a daughter of William de Erghum and Eustache. Regards, John

Thanks, Douglas and Doug, for the input on the Thurlands. They do seem like a semi-difficult family. Perhaps the ancestry of Henry Stanhope's mother Elizabeth Talbot of Bashall would lead to something? https://books.google.com/books?id=2_JMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=%22henricus+stanhop%22+%22soror+et%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxqty9tsPMAhWGNiYKHeeZBSwQ6AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=%22henricus%20stanhop%22%20%22soror%20et%22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ykNjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=stanhope+talbot+bashall&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTt9WFts3MAhXERyYKHVNNAkEQ6AEIODAF#v=onepage&q=stanhope%20talbot%20bashall&f=false

On 5/8/2016 6:13 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > On 9/05/2016 8:10 AM, norenxaq via wrote: >> Hello: >> >> I recently came upon a source suggesting that a georgian queen, xosrovanush b. around 915 was of tabaristan ancestry. the site mentions a post on soc.gen.medieval as the location of this information, but provides nothing further. >> >> I am looking for when and by whom that original post was made as well as the title of the thread >> > Probably this one: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2004-08/1091897001 I would add the warning that the thread which contained the above Gen-Medieval item was started by a fantasy-filled posting by David Hughes, who was posting quite a few messages during that time which contained fictional genealogical material of an often ridiculous nature. The supposed line that started this thread has no basis in fact. Stewart Baldwin

On Sun, 8 May 2016 10:41:05 -0700 (PDT), griffjones1959@gmail.com wrote: >I've come across a Huw ap William (or Huw Williams or Hugh Williams) and can't seem to find anything apart from his wife and decedents and wonder if anyone else could help. > >Ancient & Modern Denbigh (John Williams) has: >"Dr John Dolben, Archbishop of York; and it's worth observing that his mother was the daughter of Capt Williams of Cochwillian, and sister of Archbishop Williams." > >National library of wales (http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-DOLB-EN0-1500.html) has: >"daughter of captain Hugh Williams of Wig , a soldier of fortune ( A.P.C. , 1621-3 , 368), and of Elizabeth , sister of archbishop John Williams" > >Annals and Antiquities of the Counties and County Families of Wales (Thomas Nicholas) p363 has: >"Dorothy, who m Capt Hugh Williams of Weeg." > >The baronetage of England (William Betham) p279: >"Edmund had also 2 daughters, Dorothy, the wife of Captain Hugh Williams of Weeg; secondly of sir ___ Powl, Knt" > >Observations on the Snowdon Mountains (William Williams) p182: >"Dorothy, the wife of Captin Hugh Williams of weeg, killed in Flanders" This may help, internet sources used, citimg mainly Bartrum and others. 1 Hugh Williams of Wegg or Wig or Werg 2 Edward ap Huw aka Edward Williams of Llanbedr y Cenin 3 Catherine Griffith 4 Huw ap Rotpert fl. May-1546 5 Ales ferch Sion 6 Morris Griffith fl. Jun-1602, Heir of Plas Newydd 7 Sian ferch Sion 8 Rotpert ap Gwilym of Conway 9 Ales ferch Rotpert 10 Sion 'wyn' ap Owain of Abergele 11 Elen Coetmor 12 Robert Griffith of Plas Newydd 13 Angharard Morris 14 Sion 'wyn' ap Huw + Bef 1576 15 Elizabeth Puleston Cheers, Henry Soszynski

Also shown in a number of places online: The Survey of the County of York, Taken by John de Kirkby, Commonly Called ... John Kirkby, p 281. "William de Ergham... and Thomas de Outhenby, or de Aunby, and William de Ergham as representatives, the one of Christian, the other of Joan, sisters of Osbert de Arches, while Edmund Mansel claimed a third part, as son and heir of Alice another sister." Jury determined Alice a bastard. Which helps determine some about the relationship between some of these families. Not clear it is the same William de Ergham. Doug Smith

On 9/05/2016 8:10 AM, norenxaq via wrote: > Hello: > > I recently came upon a source suggesting that a georgian queen, xosrovanush b. around 915 was of tabaristan ancestry. the site mentions a post on soc.gen.medieval as the location of this information, but provides nothing further. > > I am looking for when and by whom that original post was made as well as the title of the thread > Probably this one: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2004-08/1091897001 Peter Stewart

On Monday, 9 May 2016 15:18:35 UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > On Monday, 9 May 2016 14:35:28 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > > Also > > > > Calendar of the Close Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 1, p 91. Feb 7, 1327. Westminster. > > > > "Philip son of Philip de Neville, knight, William son of William de Erghum, and Thomas his brother acknowledge that they owe to to Philip de Nevill of Scotton, the elder, knight, 1000l.: to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Derby." > > > > Doug Smith > > 20 December 1315, To Robert de Cliderhou, escheator this side Trent. Order not to intermeddle further with the manor of Ilkelye, taken into the king's hands upon the death of Peter de Percy, as it appears by inquisition that Peter gave that manor to Isabella, daughter of William de Erghum, for her lifetime, before he married her, and that she was seised thereof three weeks before her marriage, and that she continued her joint-seisin thereof from her marriage until her husband's death, and that the manor is held of the heir of Henry de Percy, a minor in the king's wardship, provided that Isabella come to the king to do fealty therefor before the feast of the Purification. > Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II, vol. 2: 1313-1318 (1893), 258. > > Regards, > John The fine below is what made me suspect that Isabel, widow of Peter de Percy was the wife of Philip Neville of Scotton: 10 February 1335, York. Octave of the Purification, 9 Edw. III. Quindene of Easter, 10 Edw. III, [15 April 1336]. John de Heslarton parson of the church of Hatfeld, querent, Walter de Heslarton, chivaler, and Eustachia his wife, deforciants, of the manors of Cathwayt, Scorby, Kernetby, and Sutton on Derwent, and the moiety of a knight's fee in Sutton and Cathwayt. John de Woume and K... and William son of John Gra put in claims. John de Heslarton, parson of the church of Hatfeld, querent, Walter de Heslarton, chivaler, and Eustachia his wife, deforciant, of the manors of Cathwayt, Scorby, Kernetby, and Sutton on Derwent, and the moiety of a knight's fee in Sutton and Cathwayt To hold (subject to the life estate in the manor of Kernetby, which Isabel wife of Philip de Nevill holds of the inheritance of Eustachia) to Walter and Eustachia and the heirs of Walter. Philip and Isabel did fealty. Feet of Fines: CP 25/1/273/111, number 5. (YASRS, xlii, 95) Best regards, John

The truth, like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder. Dear Newsgroup ~ Over the course of the past several years, I've posted evidence which conclusively shows that the baronial Fitz Alan family dropped the surname, Fitz Alan, in favor of Arundel Douglas Richardson indeed has proposed his believe several times, but conclusively? I don't think so. Just check The Complete Peerage, Burke's Peerage and other works. In the archieves of Gen-Med these discussions can be found. When the male line of the Earls of Arundel became extinct the title and properties went to the Howard family, and they combined the two family names and now are known as Arundel-Howard......? Or are they? It would be so much better for Richardson to let sleeping dogs be. Leo van de Pas Canberra, Australia

On Monday, 9 May 2016 14:35:28 UTC+1, al...@mindspring.com wrote: > Also > > Calendar of the Close Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 1, p 91. Feb 7, 1327. Westminster. > > "Philip son of Philip de Neville, knight, William son of William de Erghum, and Thomas his brother acknowledge that they owe to to Philip de Nevill of Scotton, the elder, knight, 1000l.: to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Derby." > > Doug Smith 20 December 1315, To Robert de Cliderhou, escheator this side Trent. Order not to intermeddle further with the manor of Ilkelye, taken into the king's hands upon the death of Peter de Percy, as it appears by inquisition that Peter gave that manor to Isabella, daughter of William de Erghum, for her lifetime, before he married her, and that she was seised thereof three weeks before her marriage, and that she continued her joint-seisin thereof from her marriage until her husband's death, and that the manor is held of the heir of Henry de Percy, a minor in the king's wardship, provided that Isabella come to the king to do fealty therefor before the feast of the Purification. Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II, vol. 2: 1313-1318 (1893), 258. Regards, John

Also Calendar of the Close Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office ..., Volume 1, p 91. Feb 7, 1327. Westminster. "Philip son of Philip de Neville, knight, William son of William de Erghum, and Thomas his brother acknowledge that they owe to to Philip de Nevill of Scotton, the elder, knight, 1000l.: to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Derby." Doug Smith

She is also called Isabel dau. William de Ergham in: Early Yorkshire Charters: Volume 11, The Percy Fee, William Farrer, Charles Travis Clay, 106, 109-112, 149, 152. > Doug Smith

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 at 9:37:21 PM UTC-5, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > On Sunday, May 8, 2016 at 10:54:36 PM UTC-3, Kathy Becker wrote: > > Thank you, Taf, for the information. I clicked on the link that Bronwen supplied and it looks like that domain is for sale. > > The right link is: > > http://genealogics.org/index.php > > Cheers, Thank you very much, Mr. Blanco.

Thank you, Taf!