On Friday, 13 May 2016 17:19:21 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: > Dear John, > Thank you for that addition, I had no wife for him previously, Can you pinpoint if the Matilda(said wife of Thomas Despenser) in the other post you commented on earlier, is the wife of Thomas Despenser, who was brother to [Hugh Despenser I] who died in 1238 or another relative of the time period? > > 2ndly, can you provide a direct link to the "George F. Farnham, Quorndon Records (1912)" records online. > > Much appreciated, Thanks > > Robert Dear Robert, I only have two Thomas Despensers in my database. The elder one who married Recuare and died about 1207 and his son and heir Thomas who died before January 1214. In 1211-12, Thomas Despenser was holding, in right of his wife, the daughter and heiress of Hugh de Insula, 2 knight's fees at Barby, Northamptonshire, 2 fees in Lubbesthorpe, Leicestershire and 3/4 of a fee in Thorpe in the Glebe in Nottinghamshire. Hubert Hall, ed., Red Book of the Exchequer, vol. 2 (1896), 584. He was dead before 25 January 1214 when the king granted the custody and marriage of the daughter and heiress of Hugh de Insula, for 200 marks to William de Cantilupo, for the use of his son. Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Litterarum Patentium in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1835), 109. Actually William Cauntelow found a better wife for his son and heir, so he married Hugh de Insula's daughter to his nephew Eustace, who confusingly was sometime called Eustace de Cantilupo and sometimes Eustace Baret. Neither of these records shows the name of Hugh de Insula's daughter. Farrer says that her name was Catherine (HKF, i, 172), but I am not sure where he found this information. So this Thomas Despenser who left a widow Maud is a bit of a puzzle. The only possibility I can see, is that she was the widow of the elder Thomas Despenser who died about 1207. Regards, John

Olivier, generation 9 in the descent seems to be MARY Maitland + Thomas Forbes. > Katherine Maitland & > Thomas Forbes > | > Arthur Forbes & > Judith Mieumecks > | > Thomas Forbes & > ? ? > | > Catherine Forbes & > Nn Taylor > | > Catherine Taylor /1780-1842/ &1798 > Robert Sherson +1842 > | > Caroline Jemima Sherson 1810-1878 & > Frederick Henry Alexander Forth 1808-1876 > | > Robert de Lancey Forth 1835-1890 &1877 > Anne Thomson Ware 1855 > | > Marie Grace de Lancey Forth & > Rupert Greene > | > Elisabeth Greene 1909-2012 &1928 > Keith Arthur Murdoch 1885-1952 > | > Rupert Murdoch 1931-

Possible Ancestry of Main d’Aubigne Ralph the Large de Gahard and his Son Main d’Aubigne were the lords of Aubigne, which included a cluster of towns and mound fortifications centered around the Breton village of Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné. The other villages included; Chauvigné, Gahard, Saint-Médard-sur-Ille, Saint-Germain and Montreuil-sur-Ille all located between Rennes and Vitré. In Chauvigné, the Lord’s Aubigne held land in fee to the Lords of Fougères (Ferns), and probably shared a close relationship with them through a matrimonial marriage do to similar naming patterns.(a) The first mention of Ralph the Large is c. 1040 in a charter chronicling the donation of Borne wood to the monks of of Gahard. (b) Ralph was a probable participant in the Invasion of Britain with Duke William in 1066 attached to the Breton calvary and received lands around Raynham in Norfolk after the conquest. (c)(d) By 1206 Ralph had lost his English holdings because he most likely was caught up in the Breton revolt of Ralph Gael in 1075. KSB Keats-Rohan, mentions that Ralph the Large was a follower of Ralph of Gael and was associated with Eudo fitz Clamarhoc and Wihenoc, son of Goranton(e). Ralph according to B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6 had eight sons other than Main. “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. annuentibus, Maino, Jvano, Guill * Steph * Alfr * Rotb * Herv *Juhali * Herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. &c”(f) . There is also a bastard son Albert mentioned in the previously mentioned charter to the Monks of Gahard, “Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi.(b). Evan, Ralphs’s second son was in charge of restoring the Monastary of St Melanie and later became the Archbishop of Dol in 1081.(g) Main d’Aubigne, Ralphs eldest son, seems to have inherited his father’s lands in Saint-Aubin-d'Aubigné, Chauvigné and Saint-Germain and has also carried the surname of Saint-Germain. In a charter giving lands in Chauvigné to the Monks of Mont-St-Michel c. 1100 the names in no particular order, “Maini de Sancto Germano”, his son Robert, in absentia (signed by Main himself) for his son Ralph, and Main’s wife Adelesia (Bohun).(h) Ralph, Main’s eldest son, possibly by a different marriage, carried on the Breton line of Aubigny (i) and witnessed a charter with his Uncle Juhel in 1106.” “Radulfus de Albiniaco. Juhardus avunculus ejus.”(j). The Anglo-Breton line was carried out by Main’s son William (Brito), nephews; Ewen, Elias, and Geoffrey whose parentage is uncertain (could it be Robert?) can be traced from the charters of Belvoir Priory (k) and John Ravinous’s posts. (l) Link to pedigrees Pedigree of’Aubigny - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001 Pedigree 1 http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11270/img-5.png pg 179 Pedigree http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-2.png pg 266 Pedigree of Anglo-Breton Aubigne From John P Ravilious https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ Keats-Rohan, mentions a clue that might shed some light on the ancestry of Ralph the Large. She mentions a Euen de Saint-Germain, who was probably an uncle to Main d’Aubigne (m) that is named in a charter involving the Monastery of St Martin in Erbreé (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6) located in the French Archives(n). This charter loosely translated with help from accounts from Michel Brand'Honneur (o) and a separate text from the Abbey of Martimour (Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 Numéro 2168)(n) . There were three Soldiers; Norman, Frotgier, and Adam all sons of Tetbaud who were disputing Hervé the cannon of Tours of becoming a monk at the Monastery of Erbrée. One of the brothers became ill and while he was dying retracted his dispute with Hervé. Claritia, Adam’s aunt, wife of Eudon son of Almodius, protested and assaulted Hervé by hitting him on the head with a stick and in front of Rivallon the priest. The lord of the area, Andrew I of Vitre then imprisoned Clarice and called a council at the Hall of Dominus to settle the dispute with Hervé and all of Clarice’s relatives. They in turn had to claim that Herve could become a monk because Andrew needed to keep the peace because of violence and protest with the other monks. Clarice was henceforth whipped as a result of her insolence. Among the witnesses are Norman’s sons; Hamelin, Payen, Andrew, and his daughter ; and her Husband Ewen (Euen) Saint-Germain. Also in attendance are Frotgier’s sons Walter (Gualterio) and Botardo. Another online translation that was used that was translated by DuPaz (p). If anyone would like to take a stab at translating further and or finding mistakes please do. The links are directly below. Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/ B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 294-6 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom And http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm Pedigree of this Charter and Euen de St-Germain and possible Line of Raoul le Large - Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001http://books.openedition.org/pur/docannexe/image/11274/img-16.png pg 275 (a)Manoirs et châteaux dans le comté de Rennes Michel Brand’Honneur 2001 pgs, 171,178-179,187,193,266 http://books.openedition.org/pur/11260 Translated from French (b)Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France, Volume 10 edited by Martin Bouquet, Léopold Delisle pg 10 Bibloth. Nat. MSS Cartul. De Marmoutier, t. III p. 309. Donation of Raoul Le Large to the priory of Gahrad (1040-1066) “Radulfus cognomento Largus donat Sancto Exupcrio silvam Bornus, monachis qui in Gahardo commorantur. Signum ejus et Mainonis, Heweni et Guillelmi filiorum ejus. Signum Albrici filii ejus bastardi. A la marge Signum comitis Conani Signum comitis Heudonis” (c)http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/01770244 Cartulary Title: Feet of Fines for the County Norfolk 1198-1202 Date: 1200 “of all the land which Ralph Largus (Radulfus Larges)held in Reinham (Raynham)” (d)Cartulary Title: Beauchamp Cartulary, 1100-1268 Date: 1206 http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00320367 “Richard Lowoghewall the children of the east, and toward the west, and in Stockholm, according to the verses of Cecilia Luyo and two acres of meadow and two acres and a half, meadow under the messuage of Richard son of Cecilia, at the meadow that belonged to Ralph Largus (Radulfi Largi)” (e)Domesday People, The Bretons and the Norman Conquest, K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1999. Pg 44-45 (f)B. N. lat. 5441.3 pgs 295-296 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9077003n/f161.item.zoom “Rad. Largus dedit nobis Eccliam Sancti Medardi cum &c. Annuentibus filiis juis, Manio Ivano, Guill . Steph . Alfr . Rotb . herv . Juhali . herberto. Testes Rad. De Meso Germundi. & c” (g)Mondes de l'Ouest et villes du monde: Regards sur les sociétés médiévalesMélanges en l'honneur d'André Chédeville, Catherine Laurent, Bernard Merdrignac, Daniel Pichot 1998 pgs 314, 322-323 (h)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pgs 143-144 Carta de Albinneio c. 1100 ”NOTVM sit omnibus ueram sancte trinitatis fidem colentibus. Mainnum quendam nobilem uirum de Albinnei castro cum propria uxore quondam sancti Michaelis adisse limina. ac fratribus eiusdem sancte ecclesie sedule famulantibus quandam fecisse donationem de quadem maiteria ut uulgo dicitur. quam apud quandam uillam que Caluinnei dicitur habebat. pro salute sui uxorisque sue infantum quoque suorum ac omnium amicorum. et ut predicti fratres assidue sui in orationibus suis sint memores. Si quis huic dono calumpniam inferre presumpseritr sit maledictus cum Iuda traditore Domini. Vt autem hoc uerius credatur. ac per labentia tempora firmius teneatur. nomina eorum qui presentes adfuerunt cum signis uiuifice crucis que fecerunt subter notata sunt. [fol. 78v] Signum Maini [ + ] qui donum fecit. Signum uxoris eius Adelesie [ + ]. Signum Rotberti filii eius. Signum Frotgerii militis. Signum Torulfi. Signum Maini de Sancto Germano. Signum Ilgerii prepositi. Signum Guarini Ernaldi filii. Signum quod fecit Mainus [ + ] sub persona filii sui Radulfi qui absens erat et tamen hoc donum concessit. (i)K.S.B. Keats-Rohan 1995. Published MSHAB 74 (1996) 181-215 1 Le rôle des Bretons dans la politique de la colonisation normande d'Angleterre (c.1042-1135) pg 21 http://www.coelweb.co.uk/BRETSHAB.pdf (j)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilane, 6 H 16 n° 7 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2817/ c. 1106 “Radulfus de Albiniaco, Juhardus avunculus ejus”. (k)The Manuscripts of His Grace the Duke of Rutland: Letters and papers, 1440-1797 (v.3 mainly correspondence of the fourth Duke of Rutland). v.4. Charters, cartularies, &c. Letters and papers, supplementary. Extracts from household accounts John James Robert Manners Duke of Rutland, Richard Ward, Robert Campbell, John Horace Round H.M. Stationery Office, 1905 - Great Britain. Pgs, 98-174. (l)John P. Ravilious, Tuesday, 15 December 2009 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/LD4o5uCGO1o/DKZF_0NyNIQJ (m)The Cartulary of the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Shaun Tyas, 2006, Pg 148. “ Main was a son of Ralph Largus of Gahard (Morice, Preuves, i, 408; Cartulaire de Saint-Aubin d'Angers, ii, no. 677, pp. 171-5; Arch. dépt. d'Ille-et- Vilaine, IF 529, Gahard III). His wife Adelaide was daughter of Humphrey de Bohun….Main de Saint-Germain was probably a nephew of the donor, one of whose many brothers was Euen de Saint-Germain (B. N. lat. 5441.3, pp. 295-6). [65}.” (n)Rennes, AD Ille-et-Vilaine, 6 H 34 n° 3 http://www.cn-telma.fr/originaux/charte2168/ (o)Brand'Honneur Michel. La motte et le clocher : l'affrontement des symboles ?. In: Cahiers de civilisation médiévale, 43 eannée (n°169), Janvier-mars 2000. p. 16 http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/ccmed_0007-9731_2000_num_43_169_2769.pdf (p)Online link translated by “DuPaz” http://www.infobretagne.com/erbree.htm

George Gordon, Earl of Huntly 1513-1562 & Elizabeth Keith +1562/ | Elizabeth Gordon +1557 & John Stewart, Earl of Atholl +1579 | Elizabeth Stewart 1554-1595 &1567 Hugh Fraser, Lord Lovat ca 1544-1577 | Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat ca 1570-1633 &1596 Janet Stewart 1573-1622 | Margaret Fraser & Robert Arbuthnott +1633 | Robert Arbuthnott, Viscount of Arbuthnott +1655 &1639 Marjory Carnegie +1651 | Margaret Arbuthnott &1659 John, Baronet Forbes | Jane Forbes & Charles Maitland +1700 | Katherine Maitland & Thomas Forbes | Arthur Forbes & Judith Mieumecks | Thomas Forbes & ? ? | Catherine Forbes & Nn Taylor | Catherine Taylor /1780-1842/ &1798 Robert Sherson +1842 | Caroline Jemima Sherson 1810-1878 & Frederick Henry Alexander Forth 1808-1876 | Robert de Lancey Forth 1835-1890 &1877 Anne Thomson Ware 1855 | Marie Grace de Lancey Forth & Rupert Greene | Elisabeth Greene 1909-2012 &1928 Keith Arthur Murdoch 1885-1952 | Rupert Murdoch 1931-

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 5:19:21 PM UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: <snip> > 2ndly, can you provide a direct link to the "George F. Farnham, Quorndon Records (1912)" records online. > > Much appreciated, Thanks > > Robert ___________________ This ought to take you to it: https://archive.org/details/cu31924029786179 Matt Tompkins

Dear John, Thank you for that addition, I had no wife for him previously, Can you pinpoint if the Matilda(said wife of Thomas Despenser) in the other post you commented on earlier, is the wife of Thomas Despenser, who was brother to [Hugh Despenser I] who died in 1238 or another relative of the time period? 2ndly, can you provide a direct link to the "George F. Farnham, Quorndon Records (1912)" records online. Much appreciated, Thanks Robert

On Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:02:32 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: > Help request: Previously, I have only seen one good reference to a William as brother of Hugh, son of Hugh Despenser in a charter of Thomas de Ardene in a Chester deed, in that record he was not shown with the name Despenser following as is portrayed below. > > First, can any one ascertain if the place "Lutterburc", has a more common name. I have seen similar spellings such as Luctberg, which later states it was Loughborough,but in this case, I'm not sure? > > Secondly, to [who's men] are they referring to when it says "with the consent of their men of ' Lutterburc". Bascially, I want to know: Is it saying Geoffrey de Jort has men in this place alongside Thomas Despenser? > > From: Honours and Kt's fees Vol. 1 > pg. 63 under Woodthorpe: > > > Thorpe ' Muntford ' is assumed to be the present Woodthorpe. > > The association of the family of Muntford (not Montefort) with > > this place, implied by its distinctive appellation, has not been > > discovered, but Thomas Despenser, Geoffrey de Jort, W. de > > Munford, Henry son of Serlo and Robert his son, and Robert son > > of Picot, with the consent of their men of ' Lutterburc,' gave to > > Garendon abbey land called ' Locholmewro de Luteberc' > > > > The position of this place is proved by the following deed : > > Hugh Despenser, son and heir of Hugh Despenser, grants > > to Sir Geoffrey Despenser his uncle his wood of Thorp Munfort, > > which descended to him from his father and from William > > Despenser his uncle, namely from Lousterbothes Durnes, by > > the grantor's wood called La Haye to his park (of Loughborough), > > adjoining the ditch between Thorpwatecroft and the field of Thorpmunfort, as > far as Cadaker and so to La Thurne. > > As a side note: > Woodthorpe is named under "Fees of Honour of Chester" the tenant is named as being Despenser. These court cases might be of some interest: Trinity Term 1239, Northampton. Juliana, who was the wife of William le Despencer, claims one third part of half a virgate of land in Irfeld as her dower. Curia Regis Roll, No. 120, m. 5. Hilary Term 1243, Leicestershire. Serlo de Thorp demands against Hugh le Despencer, whom Adam Jago calls to warranty one messuage with the appurtenances (except 80 feet in length and 40 feet in width) in Lughteburgh as his right; and of which he says that a certain Amice (mother of the said Serlo) was seised in her demesne as of fee in the time of King John, father of the lord the King that now is, by taking issues to the value of half a mark. And from the said Amice the right descended to the said Serlo, who now seeks, as son and heir. And that such is his right, etc. And Hugh comes and denies the right, etc., and places himself on the Grand Assize of the lord the King and seeks recognition whether he has not the greater right to the said messuage in demesne; because Serlo quitclaimed it to William le Despencer, uncle of the said Hugh, whose heir he is. A day is given them on the coming of the Justices, and then let 4 knights come. Curia Regis Roll, No. 127, m. 14 d. From: George F. Farnham, Quorndon Records (1912), 33 & 35. Regards, John

On Friday, 13 May 2016 11:36:54 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: > Dear John , can you please confirm what it says in the other sources listed by Ravillous included the Farrer [9] and the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II, reference and post back your findings, much appreciated. > > I apparently got the source mixed up. Ravillous conjectured that Thomas Despenser was cousin to Hugh de Berc (Berges) by confusing the Ansketil de Berges who he conjectured to be Anschetil Despenser at the time, who were in hindsight over 100 years apart and could not be the same person. > > My info is in error based on the summary of the family by John Ravillous in 2006, where he informs us that Thomas Despenser and Hugh were cousins: > > Excerpt form post by John Ravillios (2006) > > "amerced 40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire, as > noted by Farrer [9]. The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II > identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges: > > " De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'. > Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia > pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s. > .... > Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro > eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19] > > I now find both men appear here: on page # 185 > > https://ia600307.us.archive.org/32/items/publicationsofpi25pipe_0/publicationsofpi25pipe_0.pdf > > De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'. > > Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia pro foresta. > In thesauro .xx. 5. Et debet .xx. s. > > Hugo de Berc 1 debet dimidiam marcam pro eodem. Sed requirendus > est in Rotel'. Berch\ C.R. > > Thanks > > Robert Dear Robert, All this record says, is that in 1175-6, Thomas Despenser was fined for a forest offence in Leicestershire and Hugh de Berghes was fined for a similar offence in Rutland. It does not make them cousins. Regards, John

> On Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:02:32 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: > > Help request: Previously, I have only seen one good reference to a William as brother of Hugh, son of Hugh Despenser in a charter of Thomas de Ardene in a Chester deed, in that record he was not shown with the name Despenser following as is portrayed below. > > > > First, can any one ascertain if the place "Lutterburc", has a more common name. I have seen similar spellings such as Luctberg, which later states it was Loughborough,but in this case, I'm not sure? > > > > Secondly, to [who's men] are they referring to when it says "with the consent of their men of ' Lutterburc". Bascially, I want to know: Is it saying Geoffrey de Jort has men in this place alongside Thomas Despenser? > > > > From: Honours and Kt's fees Vol. 1 > > pg. 63 under Woodthorpe: > > > > Thorpe ' Muntford ' is assumed to be the present Woodthorpe. > > > > The association of the family of Muntford (not Montefort) with > > this place, implied by its distinctive appellation, has not been > > discovered, but Thomas Despenser, Geoffrey de Jort, W. de > > Munford, Henry son of Serlo and Robert his son, and Robert son > > of Picot, with the consent of their men of ' Lutterburc,' gave to > > Garendon abbey land called ' Locholmewro de Luteberc' > > > > The position of this place is proved by the following deed : > > > > Hugh Despenser, son and heir of Hugh Despenser, grants > > to Sir Geoffrey Despenser his uncle his wood of Thorp Munfort, > > which descended to him from his father and from William > > Despenser his uncle, namely from Lousterbothes Durnes, by > > the grantor's wood called La Haye to his park (of Loughborough), > > adjoining the ditch between Thorpwatecroft and the field of Thorpmunfort, as > > far as Cadaker and so to La Thurne. > > > > As a side note: > > Woodthorpe is named under "Fees of Honour of Chester" the tenant is named as being Despenser. > > > ________________________________________ On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 3:13:37 PM UTC+1, Matt Tompkins wrote: > Lutterburc is certainly Loughborough, which appears in early records in forms like Lucteburc, Lucteburga (I suspect -tt- is a misreading of -ct-, a very easy mistake to make). By 1300 forms like Lughteburgh become more usual. > > In the last 6 months I've been looking at quite a few original records from Loughborough and Woodthorpe. I don't think I've ever seen the latter called anything but 'Wodthorpe', but then again all the references I've seen date from after 1350. It's quite possible that it was earlier called Thorpe Muntford or Montfort. But a short distance away from Woodthorpe are Shelthorpe, Knight Thorpe and Thorpe Acre - Thorpe Muntford might also have been one of them. > > The early forms of the names of all these places will be revealed when the final volume of Barrie Cox's Place-names of Leicestershire, dealing with West Goscote hundred, comes out (later this year?). Until then one has to look in his PhD thesis on the place-names of Leicestershire, on which the books are substantially based. We have one in our departmental library and I'll have a look at it on Friday, when I'll next be there. > > Matt Tompkins _____________________ I've looked in Barrie Cox's thesis and, yes, Thorp Muntford was the place later known as Woodthorpe. It was recorded in 1394 as 'Thorpe Mountford alias Wodethorp' - Cox had this reference from G.F. Farnham, Quorndon Records (London, 1912). Matt Tompkins

Dear John , can you please confirm what it says in the other sources listed by Ravillous included the Farrer [9] and the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II, reference and post back your findings, much appreciated. I apparently got the source mixed up. Ravillous conjectured that Thomas Despenser was cousin to Hugh de Berc (Berges) by confusing the Ansketil de Berges who he conjectured to be Anschetil Despenser at the time, who were in hindsight over 100 years apart and could not be the same person. My info is in error based on the summary of the family by John Ravillous in 2006, where he informs us that Thomas Despenser and Hugh were cousins: Excerpt form post by John Ravillios (2006) "amerced 40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire, as noted by Farrer [9]. The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges: " De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'. Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s. .... Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19] I now find both men appear here: on page # 185 https://ia600307.us.archive.org/32/items/publicationsofpi25pipe_0/publicationsofpi25pipe_0.pdf De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'. Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. 5. Et debet .xx. s. Hugo de Berc 1 debet dimidiam marcam pro eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. Berch\ C.R. Thanks Robert

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 12:31:05 PM UTC-7, Michael OHearn via wrote: > Genealogists have discovered that likely presidential candidates Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton share common descent from Joan of Gaunt and Katherine Swinford. > > http://www.infowars.com/trump-hillary-distant-cousins-say-genealogists/ > > In view of past discussion regard Plantagenet Richard's Y-DNA not matching that of alleged Beaufort Somerset cousins, is the legitimacy question of John of Gaunt still an issue? If the DNA discrepancy arose from the circumstances of John's illegitimate parentage, then we could assume that both Trump and Clinton are of bastardized descent. > > > > Sent from my iPhone For whatever it's worth, this is the information from Geni.com which gives the supposed royal descent for Trump: https://www.geni.com/people/Mary-Anne-Trump-MacLeod/6000000013186316923 Leslie

On Wednesday, 11 May 2016 21:54:07 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote: > In 11 Henry II (1166) Thomas Despenser was amerced a fine for trespass with his kin "Hugh de Berc"(Berges) > Hugh de Prestwald alias Hugh de Berges fls. 1176 > Dear Robert, Thomas Despenser does not appear in the pipe rolls for 11 Henry II. He appears in the pipe rolls for 12 Henry II (1165-66) when he owed 1 mark for a default in Leicestershire, but "Hugh de Berc" does not appear in this pipe roll. https://archive.org/stream/piperollsociety09pipeuoft#page/70/mode/1up What is your source that Hugh de Berges was a relation of Thomas Despenser? Regards, John

The Berkeley Castle Muniments [BCM/G/4/13/1] preserve the marriage settlement, dated 16 November 1391, of Robert Cranford of South Newington, Oxfordshire, and Alice Dauntsey, daughter of Walter Dauntsey, of la Wyke, just across the Thames from Oxford in Berkshire. Do Alice and Walter belong to the Dauntsey family of Wiltshire? Walter is clearly not the younger man of the same name who inherited the manor of Dauntsey and died without issue in 1420 [IPM 8 Henry V]. Upon this Walter’s death his sister and heiress Joan, wife of (Sir) John Stradling, carried the manor Dauntsey the Stradling family. F. N. McNamara, Memorials of the Danvers family: 230-233, offers a sketch of this younger man, but, so far as I can tell, identifies no earlier Walters in the Wiltshire family. [link: https://archive.org/stream/memorialsofdanve00macn#page/230/mode/2up] Can anyone place Alice and Walter? Scott Swanson sswanson@butler.edu

There are extant two contradictory accounts of Margaret Englefield, daughter of (Sir) Thomas Englefield of Englefield, Berkshire, the Speaker of the House of Commons, who died in 1514. Accounts of the of the Blake family of Calne in Wiltshire and of the kindred Baynard family state that she married Robert Blake of Calne who died 11 December 1515. Accounts of the Lingon family state that she married about 1530 John Lingen of the Herefordshire family. Ordinarily when I encounter ambivalent accounts like those treating Margaret Englefield's marriages, their proponents seem to be aware of the divergences, squabbling on the Gen-Medieval list, fighting it out in footnotes, or carefully working through the sources, but there seems to be little cross-pollination on this particular problem. 1) Blake accounts The ultimate source for the Blake accounts appears to be the 1565 visitation of Wiltshire: “Robert Blaake of Cawne in the said co., third son and heir of Robert, mar. Margerett, da. of Sir Thomas Englefeild of Englefeild, co. Berks....” By the looks of it, one of Margaret’s grandsons made the report to the herald. [link: https://archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/6/mode/2up] Plantagenet Ancestry (2011) I: 187 follows this version and states that Margaret Englefield, wife of Robert Blake, was the daughter of Sir Thomas Englefield, knight, of Englefield, Berkshire. 2) Lingon accounts The ultimate source for the Lingon accounts appears to be the visitation of Berkshire in 1665-1666, a pedigree reported to the herald by Henry Englefield 20 March 1664/5, identifying Margaret daughter of Sir Thomas Englefield as the wife of John Lyngen esquire, and naming their children John, William, Thomas, Walter, Eleanor wife of Nicholas Walwen, and Anne wife of John Gower. [link: https://archive.org/stream/fourvisitations00britgoog#page/n140/mode/2up] F. N. Macnamara, Memorials of the Danvers family (London, 1895): 140, follows this pedigree. [link: https://archive.org/stream/memorialsofdanve00macn#page/140/mode/2up] As does Burke’s History of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland, two volumes (London, 1898) I: 207. [link: https://books.google.com/books?id=YUtNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=%22john+lingen%22+%22sutton%22&source=bl&ots=cS06aCFt5d&sig=cc4eMTj4BDqed-vanrXwLy7-R0k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp0LLDs8vMAhVKXh4KHeOsCbEQ6AEIPjAF#v=onepage&q=%22john%20lingen%22%20%22sutton%22&f=false] As does David Nash Ford’s Royal Berkshire History website. [link: http://www.berkshirehistory.com/gentry/database/pedigree2.htm#2.INDI107.37.FAM79.37.INDI107.37.4322.0] 3) Margaret herself/themselves. The will of Sir Thomas Englefield, [PROB 11/17/532], dated 4 March 1513/4; proved 24 April 1514, names daughter Elizabeth White, daughter [Joan] Leynham, daughter [Eleanor] Tropnell, daughter Joyce Englefield, bethrothed but not yet married to the son and heir of Sir Symond Herdco[ne]t, and Elizabeth Englefield, daughter of his second wife Mary, who must have been under the age of five or so. He does not mention his daughter Margaret, but his will spends much more time on obsequies than on legacies. Margaret, wife of Robert Blake, had at least two children. Her son Roger Blake was named in the will of his uncle John Blake [PROB 11/14/117], dated 24 February 1503/4, proved 24 April 1504, so, were Roger born in 1504 and Margaret age 17 or so, she would have been born at the latest in 1587. According to a series of IPMs of the Baynard family, Margaret’s daughter Anne Blake must have married Philip Baynard by 1512 or so. Again, if we assume Anne’s age as 17 at marriage and Margaret’s age as 17 when Anne was born, Margaret’s own birthdate is pushed back a few years at the latest to 1578. A woman born in 1587, let alone 1578, is unlikely to have been bearing at least five children from 1530 onward. It thus appears like that Margaret wife of Robert Blake and Margaret wife of John Lingen were two different women. If the 1664/5 is accurate in its identification, chronology would more likely make Margaret wife of John Lingen the daughter of the Speaker’s son Thomas who died in 1537, but the younger Thomas’ will dated 18 July 1537I, makes no mention of a daughter Margaret. [link: http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-27_f_80.pdf] 4) Weighing evidence. So far as I can tell, except for the pedigrees, no documentary evidence tying either of these women to Sir Thomas Englefield has yet surfaced. The 1565 source of the Blake account is a century older than the 1664 pedigree of the Lingen account. The Blake grandsons most likely knew the identity of their grandmother; were they tempted to falsify the record, which certainly happened in the visitations, their neighborhood most likely knew the truth of it. At first it seemed to me that Sir Thomas Englefield enjoyed a markedly higher standing than the Blake family; on second thought he was responsible himself for much of his social ascent and may well have been much closer socially to the Blake family as a young man. His wife Margery Danvers had Wiltshire connections. Later Blake and Baynard wills do not name Englefield cousins. Since the Englefields would have been useful cousins to cultivate, their absence from these wills might be tacit proof that there was no close relation. That said, these wills keep legacies close to home. The 1664/5 source is 130 years distant from the family it described; its detail in naming the children also suggests family memory or family archives of some sort. The pedigree is extensive. It does omit several of the daughters named in Thomas Englefield’s 1514 will, so the pedigree was selective. Happy to know about documents that might sort these people out. A cursory search of the National Archives catalogue has turned up nothing. Scott Swanson sswanson@butler.edu

On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 6:17:13 PM UTC-4, Swanson wrote: > The Berkeley Castle Muniments [BCM/G/4/13/1] preserve the marriage settlement, dated 16 November 1391, of Robert Cranford of South Newington, Oxfordshire, and Alice Dauntsey, daughter of Walter Dauntsey, of la Wyke, just across the Thames from Oxford in Berkshire. > > Do Alice and Walter belong to the Dauntsey family of Wiltshire? > > Walter is clearly not the younger man of the same name who inherited the manor of Dauntsey and died without issue in 1420 [IPM 8 Henry V]. Upon this Walter’s death his sister and heiress Joan, wife of (Sir) John Stradling, carried the manor Dauntsey the Stradling family. F. N. McNamara, Memorials of the Danvers family: 230-233, offers a sketch of this younger man, but, so far as I can tell, identifies no earlier Walters in the Wiltshire family. > > [link: https://archive.org/stream/memorialsofdanve00macn#page/230/mode/2up] > > Can anyone place Alice and Walter? Your Walter was mayor of Oxford. http://www.oxfordhistory.org.uk/mayors/1348_1485/daundsey_walter_1409_1423.html I have a note that he was heir of a cousin "Thomas de la Wyke" in 1377, but I don't know of any evidence that this Walter was a descendant of any knightly or noble family at all. --Joe C

Avunculate marriage is the marriage of an uncle with his niece or an aunt with her nephew. These type of marriages were usually done to keep wealth and property within families. In England before the Reformation, a Papal Dispensation had to obtained for such a marriage to be legal. In colonial New Jersey such marriages were declared void in 1682. However avunculate marriages were not made illegal in the neighbouring Province of New York until 1893. (Since 2014 they are once more legal in New York.) Now knowing the above, various entries concerning the Woolley/Wooley families make sense as taken from the Trella May Hall Collection located in the Archives at the New England Historic Genealogical Society. Edward Woolley, born 16 January 1691/62 at Shrewsbury, Monmouth County, New Jersey (some people said he was born in Rhode Island which I believe is wrong), was a son of Edward Woolley (1655 to 1729) and his wife Lydia Allen (1660 to 1742). His older sister was Elizabeth Woolley (1685 to 1723) the wife of Gabriel Stelle (de L'Estoile) (1685 to 1738) of Perth Amboy, Middlesex County, New Jersey. Elizabeth and Gabriel had a daughter named Lydia "Lida" Stelle who was born in 1709. The younger Edward was mentioned in the Will of his father Edward Woolley dated 3 January 1728/29. However, he is not in the Will of his mother which was written on 3 November 1732. Daughter Lydia Stelle is also not named in the Will of her father Gabriel. I believe that sometime in 1729 Edward Woolley the Younger and his niece Lydia Stelle eloped (she was probably pregnant with their son Jehu/John), leaving New Jersey for Dutchess County, New York, where they married (legally) and settled there. Widow Lydia Allen Woolley and Gabriel Stelle did not approve of this marriage and that is why they cut off their respective children from any inheritance. Children of Edward and Lydia were: Jehu/John Woolley (1729 to 1812)William Woolley (1730 to 1817) married Elizabeth EvartsAbel Woolley (1734 to 1826) married Mary CarterLydia Valeria Woolley (1737 to 1813) married Zephaniah HowardPontius Woolley (1739 to 1814) married Content Palmer William Woolley and his wife Elizabeth later moved to Middleton, New Jersey and I believe that it was his descendants that Dr. John E. Stillwell found living in New Bargain Mills, Howell township, Monmouth County, NJ  in 1893. I do not know what religion Edward Howard and his wife Lydia Steel followed. They were not Quakers as Edward's ancestors were. Lydia's branch of the Stelle/de L'Estoile family were Anglicans. Daughter Lydia Valeria and her husband Zephaniah Howard were Baptists. Son Pontius Woolley probably became a Quaker in order to marry Content Palmer who came from an Connecticut Quaker family. I do not know when Edward and Lydia died. Some family historians say that Peter Woolley (born 1732; died unknown) whose wife was Hannah Potter, was also a son of Edward and Lydia (Stelle) Woolley. He was actually the son of Peter Woolley and his wife Mary Tilton. The elder Peter in turn was a son of William Woolley (1662 to 1718) and his wife Ann West of Shrewbury, NJ. Actually Peter Woolley (c.1695 to after 1732) was married three times. His first wife was Margaret Stelle (born 1705; died probably about 1725), the oldest sister of Lydia. His second and third wives were Martha Tilton and Mary Tilton. Young Peter moved to Dutchess County also and had a very close relationship with Abel and  Pontius Woolley and with Zephaniah Howard so that made some to think he was a brother to Abel, Pontius, and Lydia Valeria. Thus, with none of the Woolley historians knowing about Avunculate marriage - also the idea that an uncle marrying his blood niece would have filled those Victorians with dread about incest - that line of the Woolley family has not been recorded properly. Darrel Hockley Regina, SK, Canada

Hi Darrel. I am wondering if there is some specific mention in the Trella May Hall Collection you mention located in the Archives at the New England Historic Genealogical Society that has pointed you in this direction or if this is speculation? I have several first cousin marriages in my data base from centuries ago, but have not heard of any uncle/niece marriages in any families. They would not be impossible of course & I agree if one occurred, the people involved might keep it quite quiet. It would be very rare though. I agree it is difficult not to be able to pin down the parentage of the Edward Woolley married to Lida Stelle, but Edward Woolley was a very common name. Were there not 2 groups of Woolleys…one originating in New Jersey, mostly spelled Woolley & one originating in new York, mostly spelled Wooley? Could he possibly be from that group (which I believe were distantly related)? Margaret Woolley Gaven From: Darrel Hockley [mailto:ddh_regina@yahoo.ca] Sent: May 12, 2016 1:29 PM To: Woolley@rootsweb.com Cc: Dave Woolley <daw@lawoolley.com>; Andrew Oloffson <a.p.oloffson@gmail.com>; Gen-medieval <gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com>; David Jay Webber <jaywebber@cox.net>; NYDutche-L@rootsweb.com; Margaret Gaven <gavens@telus.net> Subject: Avunculate marriage in the Woolley family Avunculate marriage is the marriage of an uncle with his niece or an aunt with her nephew. These type of marriages were usually done to keep wealth and property within families. In England before the Reformation, a Papal Dispensation had to obtained for such a marriage to be legal. In colonial New Jersey such marriages were declared void in 1682. However avunculate marriages were not made illegal in the neighbouring Province of New York until 1893. (Since 2014 they are once more legal in New York.) Now knowing the above, various entries concerning the Woolley/Wooley families make sense as taken from the Trella May Hall Collection located in the Archives at the New England Historic Genealogical Society. Edward Woolley, born 16 January 1691/62 at Shrewsbury, Monmouth County, New Jersey (some people said he was born in Rhode Island which I believe is wrong), was a son of Edward Woolley (1655 to 1729) and his wife Lydia Allen (1660 to 1742). His older sister was Elizabeth Woolley (1685 to 1723) the wife of Gabriel Stelle (de L'Estoile) (1685 to 1738) of Perth Amboy, Middlesex County, New Jersey. Elizabeth and Gabriel had a daughter named Lydia "Lida" Stelle who was born in 1709. The younger Edward was mentioned in the Will of his father Edward Woolley dated 3 January 1728/29. However, he is not in the Will of his mother which was written on 3 November 1732. Daughter Lydia Stelle is also not named in the Will of her father Gabriel. I believe that sometime in 1729 Edward Woolley the Younger and his niece Lydia Stelle eloped (she was probably pregnant with their son Jehu/John), leaving New Jersey for Dutchess County, New York, where they married (legally) and settled there. Widow Lydia Allen Woolley and Gabriel Stelle did not approve of this marriage and that is why they cut off their respective children from any inheritance. Children of Edward and Lydia were: Jehu/John Woolley (1729 to 1812) William Woolley (1730 to 1817) married Elizabeth Evarts Abel Woolley (1734 to 1826) married Mary Carter Lydia Valeria Woolley (1737 to 1813) married Zephaniah Howard Pontius Woolley (1739 to 1814) married Content Palmer William Woolley and his wife Elizabeth later moved to Middleton, New Jersey and I believe that it was his descendants that Dr. John E. Stillwell found living in New Bargain Mills, Howell township, Monmouth County, NJ in 1893. I do not know what religion Edward Howard and his wife Lydia Steel followed. They were not Quakers as Edward's ancestors were. Lydia's branch of the Stelle/de L'Estoile family were Anglicans. Daughter Lydia Valeria and her husband Zephaniah Howard were Baptists. Son Pontius Woolley probably became a Quaker in order to marry Content Palmer who came from an Connecticut Quaker family. I do not know when Edward and Lydia died. Some family historians say that Peter Woolley (born 1732; died unknown) whose wife was Hannah Potter, was also a son of Edward and Lydia (Stelle) Woolley. He was actually the son of Peter Woolley and his wife Mary Tilton. The elder Peter in turn was a son of William Woolley (1662 to 1718) and his wife Ann West of Shrewbury, NJ. Actually Peter Woolley (c.1695 to after 1732) was married three times. His first wife was Margaret Stelle (born 1705; died probably about 1725), the oldest sister of Lydia. His second and third wives were Martha Tilton and Mary Tilton. Young Peter moved to Dutchess County also and had a very close relationship with Abel and Pontius Woolley and with Zephaniah Howard so that made some to think he was a brother to Abel, Pontius, and Lydia Valeria. Thus, with none of the Woolley historians knowing about Avunculate marriage - also the idea that an uncle marrying his blood niece would have filled those Victorians with dread about incest - that line of the Woolley family has not been recorded properly. Darrel Hockley Regina, SK, Canada

Also, in the ancestry (from BLG 1952, sub Gordon of Pitlurg): Richard Maitland m. Mary (Margaret Gordon)daughter of Robert Gordon of Pitlurg and Straloch. I believe he was b. 14 sep 1580 and d. 18 Aug 1661. He married Katherine Irvine d. 3 Aug 1662. Robert Gordon appears to have several royal lines in his ancestry. Doug Smith

A small bit: I just found this entry from Armorial families : a directory of gentlemen of coat-armour (Volume 2) by Arthur Charles Fox-Davies NEVILL PERCEVAL NOWELL DE ROUEN FORTH, Gentleman, Lieut. 2nd Monmouthshire Regt. Bom 30 Oct., 1905, being the only son of Lieut.-Col. Clarence Thomas Willoughby Forth, late 1st Battn. (88th) Connaught Rangers and 30th Punjabis, late of Glenageary, co. Dublin, who saw service on the frontiers of India and in the Great War (two Frontier Medals of India and two clasps inscribed " Looshar 1890-91, and " Relief of Chitral 1895," British War Medal and Victory Medal), and was for three years Member of the Urban District Council of Kingstown, co. Dublin, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, and the Grand Orange Lodge of co Dublin, and Vice President and Hon. Secretary of several of the principal organisations for the mainten- ance of the Union, by his wife, Married 22 June 1897, Gwendoline May Frederica, eld. d. of Frederick William Clay of Meadowbank, Terenure, and Willowdale, Kingstown, co. Dublin, by his wife Emily, d. of Richard White O'Donovan, Leitrim Rifles, of Carrick-on- Shannon ; who was the son of Col. Alfred Charles Forth, bom 17 May, 1834, and died at Paris 26 June, 1906 ; eldest son of Hon. Frederick Henry Alexander Forth, bom 11 Feb. 1808, Capt. 75th Foot now 1st Gordon Highlanders, and 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers, Lieut.- Gov in West Indies and Member of the Legislative Council, Col. Secretary and Col. Treasurer Hong-Kong, who with his younger brother His Excellency Baron Forth-Rouen des Mallets, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary from Louis Phillippe, King of the French, to several of the courts of Europe, were the sons of Nathaniel Parker Forth, Esq., Special Envoy from George III to the Courts of Versailles and Madrid, bom at Ludlow Castle, Shropshire, 27 July 1744 ; married 26 April 1804, (died 26 May, 1864), d. and co-heir of John Petrie, of Gatton Park, Surrey; and Chateau d'Enn, Pontoise, France, Deputy Lieutenant of Surrey, M.P. for Gatton (1795-1800), and in 1806 Member of the Constituent Assembly of France under Napoleon, and died at Paris 28 April 1809 ; son of Captain Samuel Forth, Sovereign of Longford, bom 1691 ; and died 1761 ; eld. son of Captain Samuel Forth, of Wolseley's Regiment of Horse, High Sheriff of co. Longford 1704, who was attainted by James II and twice severely wounded fighting for William III in the Enniskillen, Boyne and Aughrim campaigns, and died 19 Nov. 1706. Armorial bearings (Granted by William Hawkins, Ulster King of Arms, 13 April, 1698, to Captain Samuel Forth of Wolseley's Regiment of Horse)— Ermine, the harp of Ireland or, between three martlets gules. Mantling gules and argent. Crest— Upon a wreath of the colours a naked dexter arm couped and embowed, the hand holding a broken sword and encircled above the elbow with a ducal coronet all proper. Mottoes — " Deus arma ministrat " ; and " Le fort ne se soumettra jamais." Livery Dress : White coat and waistcoat, with scarlet facings, scarlet breeches, silver buttons, garters and buckles Undress : Light drab coat and overcoat, with scarlet collar and cuffs, silver buttons and hatband, white and scarlet striped waistcoat. Residence— Longford Lodge Sidcup, Kent. Doug Smith

Thanks, Darrel, for sharing your thoughts and observations. According to the Commemorative Biographical Record of the Counties of Dutchess and Putnam , Vol. 1, p. 502, the religious affiliation of Zephaniah Howard (the husband of Lydia Valeriah Woolley) was "Friend," not Baptist. His son Silas is also said in that source to have been a member of the Society of Friends by "birthright." This information apparently came from Emeline Howard Cronk, daughter of Silas and granddaughter of Zephaniah. (In the book, Zephaniah is misspelled as Zebaniah, but it is the same person.) What is your source that these folks were Baptists? Here is that Commemorative Biographical Record: https://books.google.com/books?id=4skpAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA502#v=onepage&q&f=false Even if New York did not outlaw avunculate marriage, do you know of any firm instances of its having happened in the colonial or early Federal periods? It would seem to me that the mores of the time would have prevented this from happening even if it were legal. It is also prohibited in Leviticus 18:12-13 and 20:19, and the people at that time of history, being more religious and Biblically literate than most today, would have been aware of that. I am not aware of any clear case of it in New York history. I know of several instances of first cousins marrying, but in my genealogical research over the years I have not found any instance of an uncle-niece or aunt-nephew marriage. So, mark me down as not convinced. ;-) David Jay Webber From: Darrel Hockley Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 1:29 PM To: Woolley@rootsweb.com Cc: Dave Woolley ; Andrew Oloffson ; Gen-medieval ; David Jay Webber ; NYDutche-L@rootsweb.com ; Margaret Gaven Subject: Avunculate marriage in the Woolley family Avunculate marriage is the marriage of an uncle with his niece or an aunt with her nephew. These type of marriages were usually done to keep wealth and property within families. In England before the Reformation, a Papal Dispensation had to obtained for such a marriage to be legal. In colonial New Jersey such marriages were declared void in 1682. However avunculate marriages were not made illegal in the neighbouring Province of New York until 1893. (Since 2014 they are once more legal in New York.) Now knowing the above, various entries concerning the Woolley/Wooley families make sense as taken from the Trella May Hall Collection located in the Archives at the New England Historic Genealogical Society. Edward Woolley, born 16 January 1691/62 at Shrewsbury, Monmouth County, New Jersey (some people said he was born in Rhode Island which I believe is wrong), was a son of Edward Woolley (1655 to 1729) and his wife Lydia Allen (1660 to 1742). His older sister was Elizabeth Woolley (1685 to 1723) the wife of Gabriel Stelle (de L'Estoile) (1685 to 1738) of Perth Amboy, Middlesex County, New Jersey. Elizabeth and Gabriel had a daughter named Lydia "Lida" Stelle who was born in 1709. The younger Edward was mentioned in the Will of his father Edward Woolley dated 3 January 1728/29. However, he is not in the Will of his mother which was written on 3 November 1732. Daughter Lydia Stelle is also not named in the Will of her father Gabriel. I believe that sometime in 1729 Edward Woolley the Younger and his niece Lydia Stelle eloped (she was probably pregnant with their son Jehu/John), leaving New Jersey for Dutchess County, New York, where they married (legally) and settled there. Widow Lydia Allen Woolley and Gabriel Stelle did not approve of this marriage and that is why they cut off their respective children from any inheritance. Children of Edward and Lydia were: Jehu/John Woolley (1729 to 1812) William Woolley (1730 to 1817) married Elizabeth Evarts Abel Woolley (1734 to 1826) married Mary Carter Lydia Valeria Woolley (1737 to 1813) married Zephaniah Howard Pontius Woolley (1739 to 1814) married Content Palmer William Woolley and his wife Elizabeth later moved to Middleton, New Jersey and I believe that it was his descendants that Dr. John E. Stillwell found living in New Bargain Mills, Howell township, Monmouth County, NJ in 1893. I do not know what religion Edward Howard and his wife Lydia Steel followed. They were not Quakers as Edward's ancestors were. Lydia's branch of the Stelle/de L'Estoile family were Anglicans. Daughter Lydia Valeria and her husband Zephaniah Howard were Baptists. Son Pontius Woolley probably became a Quaker in order to marry Content Palmer who came from an Connecticut Quaker family. I do not know when Edward and Lydia died. Some family historians say that Peter Woolley (born 1732; died unknown) whose wife was Hannah Potter, was also a son of Edward and Lydia (Stelle) Woolley. He was actually the son of Peter Woolley and his wife Mary Tilton. The elder Peter in turn was a son of William Woolley (1662 to 1718) and his wife Ann West of Shrewbury, NJ. Actually Peter Woolley (c.1695 to after 1732) was married three times. His first wife was Margaret Stelle (born 1705; died probably about 1725), the oldest sister of Lydia. His second and third wives were Martha Tilton and Mary Tilton. Young Peter moved to Dutchess County also and had a very close relationship with Abel and Pontius Woolley and with Zephaniah Howard so that made some to think he was a brother to Abel, Pontius, and Lydia Valeria. Thus, with none of the Woolley historians knowing about Avunculate marriage - also the idea that an uncle marrying his blood niece would have filled those Victorians with dread about incest - that line of the Woolley family has not been recorded properly. Darrel Hockley Regina, SK, Canada