On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 9:17:47 AM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > Thank you, Leslie. > > How would you judge the credibility of this source -- Angus Mackay, The Book > of Mackay (Edinburgh, 1906) -- what marks would you give it? > > It seems to be a cut above the usual vanity publication. > > Spencer > > DSH > > "lmahler" wrote in message > news:d90b2973-f18e-4132-a452-cf5385d2dfa6@googlegroups.com... > > On Saturday, May 14, 2016 at 9:55:47 AM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > > > Then there is this alleged relationship... > > > > ...Similar personalities perhaps - romantic, theatrical and outsized? > > > > DSH > > > > "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do > > nothing." - Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797] > > > > "Ignorance-Arrogance-Dishonesty-Goodwill-Fortitude-Guile-And Zeal -- > > Absolutely The Worst Possible Combination Of Human Traits." > > > > R. Bannister Chandos Byron [1836-1903] > > > > George Gordon 6th Lord Byron & The Donald Trump > > > > > > Donald John Trump is the Half-9th cousin 6 times removed * of George > > Gordon > > Byron 6th Lord Byron > > > > Common Ancestor > > > > * Janet Stewart > > (Cir 1505-1558) > > | | > > | | > > Henry Stewart 1st Lord Methven Alexander Gordon Master of > > Sutherland > > (Cir 1495-Abt 1551) (Cir 1500-1530) > > * Janet Stewart * Janet Stewart > > (Cir 1505-1558) (Cir 1505-1558) > > | | > > | | > > William Ruthven 1st Earl of Gowrie * John Gordon 11th Earl of > > Sutherland > > (1541-1584) (Cir 1525-1567) > > * Dorothea Stewart Helen Stewart Countess of > > Sutherland > > ( -After 1605) (Cir 1509-1564) > > | | > > | | > > James Ogilvy 6th Lord of Airlie * Alexander Gordon 12th Earl of > > Sutherland > > ( -Cir 1617) (Cir 1552-1594) > > * Jean Ruthven Lady Jean Gordon > > ( -Cir 1611) (Cir 1543-1629) > > | | > > | | > > * James Ogilvy 1st Earl of Airlie Hugh MacKay of Far Tongue and > > Strathnaver > > (1586-1664) (1550-1614) > > * Lady Jane Gordon > > (1574-1615) > > | | > > | | > > Patrick Urquart of Meldrum * Donald MacKay 1st Lord Reay, fiar of > > Strathnaver > > (1611-1664) (1590-1649) > > * Margaret Ogilvy Elizabeth Thomson > > ( -1637) > > | | > > | | > > Sir George Gordon 9th Laird of Gight The Reverend Hugh Munro Minister > > of > > Durness > > (Bef 1611-Bef 1695) (Cir 1639-1698) > > * Elizabeth Urquart * Anna MacKay > > | | > > | | > > Alexander Davidson of Newton and Tillymorgan Robert MacKay of Archness > > ( -1712) * Isabella Munro > > * Marie Gordon 10th Laird of Gight > > ( -Bef 1740) > > | | > > | | > > * Alexander Davidson 11th Laird of Gight * Alexander MacKay > > (1716-1760) Margaret Fearn > > Margaret Duff > > (1720-1801) > > | | > > | | > > * George Gordon 12th Laird of Gight * Robert MacKay tacksman of > > Halmdary > > (1741-1779) > > Katherine Innes > > ( -Bef 1783) > > | | > > | | > > Captain John Byron British Army * Ansus MacKay tenant in > > Kinlochbea > > (1756-1791) > > * Katherine Gordon 13th Laird of Gight > > (Cir 1765-1811) > > | | > > | | > > * George Gordon Byron 6th Lord Byron Angus MacLeod of Carnachy > > (1788-1824) (Cir 1757- ) > > * Mary MacKay > > (Cir 1750- ) > > | > > | > > * Donald MacLeod of Whitefield, > > near > > Thurso > > (Cir 1785- ) > > Margaret Cameron > > (Cir 1785- ) > > | > > | > > William MacLeod of Skerray > > (1806-1869) > > * Catherine MacLeod > > (1809- ) > > | > > | > > * Alexander MacLeod > > (1830-1900) > > Ann Macleod > > (1833- ) > > | > > | > > * Malcolm MacLeod > > (1866-1954) > > Mary Smith > > (1867-1963) > > | > > | > > Frederick Christ Trump Sr. > > (1905-1999) > > * Mary Anne MacLeod > > (1912-2000) > > | > > | > > * Donald John Trump > > (1946- ) > > The source for the generations down to Donald MacLeod of Whitefield near > Thurso is Angus Mackay, The Book of Mackay (Edinburgh, 1906): > > https://books.google.com/books?id=GiMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA255&dq=angus+macleod+carnachy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUw9_Bx9vMAhVDyGMKHfq6C8UQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=angus%20macleod%20carnachy&f=false > > Leslie I do not have enough familiarity with the region and time period to make an evaluation of The Book of Mackay. Leslie

For clarity, I am pondering whether Ernulph II may have been the son of one of Ernulph I’s brothers. The only connection I have been able to identify (albeit not with exhaustive examination) among the purported children of Ernulph I involving Ernulph II is the following reference (indirectly confirming them as siblings?) in the ‘Curia Regis Rolls of the reigns of Richard I. and John, PRO’, Richard 1.-2 John, Vol. 1, (1922), published by HMSO, London, pp. 311 (c. 1200), which references both Ernulph II and Geoffrey III in connection with Huggate, Yorkshire. Again, I’m grateful for any insight, clarification or suggestions for further research. Thanks! Cheers, Pete On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 2:18:41 AM UTC-4, Peter G. M. Dale wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm engaging in a bit of a segue here. However, I'd be grateful if anyone could direct me to any historically conclusive evidence that Ernulph II de Mandeville was the son of Ernulph I de Mandeville, son of the 1st Earl of Essex. > > Cheers, > > Pete

Greetings, I'm engaging in a bit of a seguay here. However, I'd be grateful if anyone could direct me to any historically conclusive evidence that Ernulph II de Mandeville was the son of Ernulph I de Mandeville, son of the 1st Earl of Essex. Cheers, Pete

On 16/05/2016 10:40 AM, taf via wrote: > On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 5:01:22 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > >> I don't know if this has come up before: Petronilla's mother may have >> been the Agatha whose husband William de Grandmesnil died on a 3 October >> (year unknown) according to the obituary of Saint-Denis, see >> https://archive.org/stream/recueildeshistor01acaduoft#page/326/mode/2up. > Interesting possibility. Is the wife of the elder William de Grandmesnil, the son of Hugh, known? > Yes, she was Mabilia 'Curta lupa', daughter of Robert Guiscard and Sikelgaita of Salerno - Orderic and Geoffrey of Malaterra gave her name and family, and we also her own charter evidence ("Signum manus Mabiliae comitissae uxoris defuncti Guilelmi Grantemanil protosebasti// "). Peter Stewart

Thank you Jason. I was having trouble with that particular source, but after opening it in Firefox instead of IE it was stable.

On 16/05/16 09:45, Ian Goddard wrote: > On 15/05/16 21:02, Richard Smith wrote: >> The will was written in September 1401 and refers to Joan as Lady Bryan, >> implying she had not remarried, > > That doesn't necessarily follow. Constance Sutton married 3 times. In > her IPM she was Lady de Mauley (or equivalent - without chasing up the > exact quote). In other words she was afforded the title of her first > husband. That one doesn't surprise me. Her first husband was a baron, while the latter two were knights. In modern usage, she would continue to be the Dowager Baroness Mauley only until she married; she'd only continue to use the title after remarriage if she married a peer of lower rank, which isn't possible for a baroness. However I get the impression that historically things were less rigid, so I'm not especially surprised to discover Constance continuing to use the senior title from her first marriage. Half a century earlier, Elizabeth de Clare reverted to calling herself "de Clare" after her third widowhood. In that case, her first marriage to the Earl of Ulster was the senior title, but it was her Clare inheritance that made her the richest woman in the country and a first cousin of the king. However I'm not sure any of these considerations applies in my case. William Bryan and William Echyngham were both knights, and I don't get the impression that the William Bryan family was more wealthy or influential than William Echyngham. It's certainly a possibility that Joan may have been called Lady Bryan after her subsequent remarriage, but it's enough of a red flag that I want to assess the evidence very carefully. Right at the moment I have no contemporary or near-contemporary evidence that William Echyngham's wife Joan was the same person as John Arundel's daughter Joan. Richard

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 12:49:37 PM UTC-4, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > I had the same suspicion. > > Yet it appears as "Ansus" in many contexts. > > I'm still suspicious. > > DSH The source which Leslie provided shows "Angus" on pp. 254 and 255. Here is another source which speaks of a known kinship between "Commissary" Donald MacLeod and the MacKay family: https://books.google.com/books?id=snE5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA172&dq=%22commissary+macleod%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil5biTjN_MAhUB2SYKHfpxBh8Q6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=%22commissary%20macleod%22&f=false See the next page, as well.

On 16/05/2016 2:38 AM, taf via wrote: > On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 6:50:17 AM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: >> These references above merely show that Petronille's father was named >> William, but that her grandfather is uncertain, although there is some >> conjecture that Robert, son of Hugh, might be a good candidate. > The question was summarized here in detail some years ago by Chris Phillips: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/2LxfjMCvo5Y > I don't know if this has come up before: Petronilla's mother may have been the Agatha whose husband William de Grandmesnil died on a 3 October (year unknown) according to the obituary of Saint-Denis, see https://archive.org/stream/recueildeshistor01acaduoft#page/326/mode/2up. Peter Stewart

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 9:05:57 AM UTC-6, Robert Spencer wrote: > Can someone give me a working link to "The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237." by Professor Geoffrey Barraclough. > > Is this one volume or more? > > Robert Try this https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE1217318&from=fhd The LDS church has a number of hard to find books that will not show up in search engines. https://books.familysearch.org/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?vid=FHD_PUBLIC&backFromPreferences=true

On 15/05/16 21:02, Richard Smith wrote: > The will was written in September 1401 and refers to Joan as Lady Bryan, > implying she had not remarried, That doesn't necessarily follow. Constance Sutton married 3 times. In her IPM she was Lady de Mauley (or equivalent - without chasing up the exact quote). In other words she was afforded the title of her first husband. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On 16/05/2016 6:02 AM, Richard Smith via wrote: > The will was written in September 1401 and refers to Joan as Lady Bryan, > implying she had not remarried, yet we know from the letters patent that > in February 1401 Sir William Echyngham was married to a Joan. Put > together this suggests that Sir Thomas Echyngham's mother was not the > daughter of John, Baron Arundel. These dates are not necessarily in conflict if February 1401 is Annunciation style, that is February 1402 new style, and Joan was still the widowed Lady Bryan in the September before. Peter Stewart

Well, true, ... but I was thinking more of the Prime Minister's status as a descendant of King William IV of Great Britain, and hence of the Electress Sophia. Maybe, however, the Gordon relationship makes them closer cousins? Surely the "ANSUS" MacKay behind Donald Trump is really ANGUS?

Le lundi 16 mai 2016 17:52:35 UTC+2, ravinma...@yahoo.com a écrit : > Also David Cameron ... George Gordon, Earl of Huntly 1513-1562 & Elizabeth Keith +1562/ | | | George Gordon, Earl of Huntly +1576 Jean Gordon 1546-1629 | | George Gordon, Earl of Huntly ca 1563-1636 Jane Gordon 1574-1615 | | Anne Gordon +1610/ Donald Mackay, Lord Reay 1591-1649 | | Mary Stewart +1662 Anna MacKay | | Ludovic Grant, laird of Freuchie +1716 Isabella Munro | | James Grant, Baronet Colquhoun 1679-1747 Alexander MacKay | | Jean Grant 1705-1788 Robert Mac Kay | | Alexander Duff, Earl of Fife 1731-1811 Ansus MacKay | | Alexander Duff 1777-1851 Mary MacKay 1750 | | James Duff, Earl of Fife 1814-1879 Donald MacLeod 1785 | | Agnes Duff 1852-1925 Catherine MacLeod 1809 | | Stephanie Agnes Cooper 1883-1918 Alexander MacLeod 1830 | | Enid Levita 1908-1993 Malcolm MacLeod 1866-1954 | | Ian Donald Cameron 1932-2010 Mary Ann MacLeod 1912-2000 | | David Cameron 1966- Donald Trump 1946-

Also David Cameron ...

Interesting, Spencer. But, of course, the Queen is also descended from Generation 3, JAMES IV Stewart King of Scotland. James IV, King of Scotland + Margaret TUDOR James V + Mary of Lorraine Mary, Queen of Scots + Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley (also a grandchild of Queen Margaret [Tudor] of Scotlant) James VI and I + Anne of Denmark Elizabeth of England + Frederick V, Elector Palatine, King of Bohemia, Winter King, Etc. Sophia of the Palatinate, chosen heiress to the British thrones after the protestant descendants of King James II

Can someone give me a working link to "The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237." by Professor Geoffrey Barraclough. Is this one volume or more? Robert

On 16/05/16 00:39, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > On 16/05/2016 6:02 AM, Richard Smith via wrote: >> The will was written in September 1401 and refers to Joan as Lady Bryan, >> implying she had not remarried, yet we know from the letters patent that >> in February 1401 Sir William Echyngham was married to a Joan. Put >> together this suggests that Sir Thomas Echyngham's mother was not the >> daughter of John, Baron Arundel. > > These dates are not necessarily in conflict if February 1401 is > Annunciation style, that is February 1402 new style, and Joan was still > the widowed Lady Bryan in the September before. I did considered that, but unfortunately the date is not in Annunciation style. The letters patent are dated 22 Feb 2 Hen IV, i.e. 1401 in the modern style, and their position in the patent roll is consistent with this date. Possibly there's an error in the transcript of Agnes Arundel's will: perhaps September 1401 is the date of probate rather than the will, and perhaps it wasn't a deathbed will. A look at Agnes's will should answer that. Richard

On 15/05/16 21:02, Richard Smith wrote: > The obvious next step is to locate these three wills (John, Baron > Arundel; Agnes de Arundel; and Sir Thomas Echyngham), but I've been > unable to find them. I hadn't realised that all there was a whole series of archbishop's registers separate to the PCC registers. Thomas's will is entry 864 in Stafford's register (fo 124), as transcribed in David Foss's PhD /The Canterbury Archiepiscopates of John Stafford (1443-52) and John Kemp (1452-54)/ (1986). It says "et corpus meum ad sepeliendum in cancello beate Marie virginis de Echyngham iuxta seputuram domine Johanne matris mee", confirming that Thomas's mother was named Joan. (Though as I said previously, I didn't seriously doubt that. My concern is over the identification of Joan as Joan Arundel.) John's will is 102 Sudbury, and Agnes's is 183 Arundel i. (Archbishop Thomas Arundel was Agnes Arundel's husband's uncle.) I don't think these registers have been transcribed, so I should try to obtain a copy of them. Richard

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 2:10:25 PM UTC+10, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > O.K. I changed some settings on my terminal. > > Now, I hope the Greek will go through to SGM. > > But it doesn't look as if it will. Thanks for trying this - oddly enough, the Greek in my SGM post came through Gen-Med to me, while my earlier post via Gen-Med with only Roman characters appears to have fallen into the cyber abyss (that I suppose should be called the "cyberbyss" or something equally wet). This is what I wrote: Yes, she was Mabilia 'Curta lupa', daughter of Robert Guiscard and Sikelgaita of Salerno - Orderic and Geoffrey of Malaterra gave her name and family, and we also her own charter evidence ("Signum manus Mabiliae comitissae uxoris defuncti Guilelmi Grantemanil protosebasti "). I should add that in English this is "Signed by the hand of countess Mabilia, wife of the deceased protosebastos William of Grandmesnil". This is in a charter for Cava abbey dated September 1117, see no. 83, https://archive.org/stream/syllabusgraecaru00trinuoft#page/108/mode/2up. William had died by January 1114, see no. 76, https://archive.org/stream/syllabusgraecaru00trinuoft#page/98/mode/2up (ὑπερ λυτρου αφέσεως του προἀπιχομενου αυθέντου ἡμων κυρ γουδέλμου γραντεμανἢ [pro redemptione et remissione quondam domini nostri Gulielmi Grantemani]). Peter Stewart

On 15/05/16 17:08, Stewart Baldwin via wrote: > The evidence of the brass is perhaps not ideal, but it seems strong > enough to accept in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Agreed. And there's apparently corroboratory evidence. According to Spencer Hall in /Echyngham of Echyngham/ (1850), Thomas's will asks that he "be buried in the Chapel of the Virgin at Echyngham near to his mother Joan". Unfortunately I've not managed to locate the will to verify that it does say this. Sir William's IPM says that Thomas was "13 years and more" in March 1414 [CIPM vol 20, no 23-4], so probably born 1400-01, and letters patent from February 1401 says that William's wife was named Joan [CPR Hen IV, vol 1, p 434]. My concern is not whether Thomas's mother was called Joan, but rather whether this Joan is the daughter of John, 1st Baron Arundel. John's will (as abstracted in /Testamenta Vetusta/, vol 1, p 105) confirms that he had a daughter named Joan, and she would have been about the right age. Most modern sources agree that Joan married to Sir William Bryan (who died 22 Sept 1395) before Sir William Echyngham. The problem with this is one of chronology. The will of Agnes de Arundel (again as abstracted in /Testamenta Vetusta/, vol 1, p 156) mentions her sisters Ladies Ross and Brian. Agnes was the widow of Sir William Arundel, a younger son of John, Lord Arundel, and in the conventional interpretation, Lady Bryan is Joan. The will was written in September 1401 and refers to Joan as Lady Bryan, implying she had not remarried, yet we know from the letters patent that in February 1401 Sir William Echyngham was married to a Joan. Put together this suggests that Sir Thomas Echyngham's mother was not the daughter of John, Baron Arundel. The obvious next step is to locate these three wills (John, Baron Arundel; Agnes de Arundel; and Sir Thomas Echyngham), but I've been unable to find them. I would expect all three individuals to have property in multiple dioceses, so I'd expect their wills to have been proved at the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, but I cannot find any of them in The National Archive's Discovery catalogue, nor in the index on Ancestry.com. Presumably a copy has been preserved elsewhere, but I have no idea how to locate them. Chichele's register was my first guess, but the dates are wrong. > The obvious question is whether or not the statement by Nigel Saul is a > significant enough "red flag" to cause concern. What reason does he > give for suggesting that William had two wives named Joan? He doesn't give one. Saul's work covers the late 13th and 14th centuries, and this marriage is out of this period. It's not mentioned in the text at all, but appears on a tree on p 2. While the text is reasonably well sourced, the four family trees are unsourced. Richard