Dear Newsgroup ~ Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 553 (sub Cromwell) includes an account of Sir John de Cromwell, Lord Cromwell, who died in 1335. Sir John de Cromwell had a long and distinguished career, he being a long time Constable of the Tower of London, Justice of of the forest South of Trent, Steward of the King’s Household, and Admiral of the Fleet. Regarding his parentage and marriage, the following information is supplied by Complete Peerage on page 553: "John de Cromwell, probably younger son of Ralph de Cromwell (who died 1289), by his 2nd wife, Margaret, daughter of Roger de Somery ... He married, before 25 June 1302, Idoine, widow of Roger de Leyburne (died 1283), and daughter and coheiress of Robert de Vipont, of Brougham Castle, Westmorland, being niece and coheiress of Richard FitzJohn [Lord FitzJohn]. She, who was heiress to large estates, died s.p. 1333, before 18 Nov., when the writ for her Inq. p.m. is dated. He died before 8 October 1335." END OF QUOTE. Having stated that Sir John de Cromwell's wife, Idoine, died without issue, the following information is added on page 553, footnote f, regarding the possibility that Sir John de Cromwell had issue: "It is not, of course, certain that he did not have issue by a previous wife, as, if such existed, they would not necessarily appear in the records." END OF QUOTE. As we see above, Complete Peerage maintains that Sir John de Cromwell was "probably younger son of Ralph de Cromwell,"... "by his 2nd wife, Margaret, daughter of Roger de Somery" Complete Peerage cites no evidence, however, to support that allegation. On page 551 in the same volume, footnote i, it is likewise claimed that Sir John de Cromwell was "probably" a younger son of Ralph de Cromwell. Here is the evidence cited on that page for that claim: Nothing. So who were Sir John de Cromwell's parents? As it turns out, there are several contemporary pieces of evidence which point to the correct parentage of Sir John de Cromwell. Complete Peerage states that Sir John de Cromwell married Idoine de Vipont before 25 June 1302. That information is doubtless correct, but I've been unable to locate the original source of that statement. Be that as it may, Complete Peerage strangely missed a late date papal dispensation for the marriage of Sir John and Idoine dated 15 March 1317, which record shows that Sir John and his wife were related in the 4th degree of kindred (or, if you prefer 3rd cousins to one another). The record reads as follows: Source: Papal Registers: Letters 2 (1895): 137. "1317. Id. Mar. [15 March] Avignon. To John de Cromuel, knight, constable of the Tower of London, and Ydona, his wife. Dispensation to remain in the marriage which they contracted, not knowing that they were related in the fourth degree of kindred." END OF QUOTE. Since the ancestry of Idoine de Vipont is well known, it should be easy to determine if the proposed parentage for Sir John de Cromwell fits the kinship indicated by the dispensation. The ancestral lines of the two parties can be traced in my book, Royal Ancestry, a 5 volume set. l. Hugh, Earl of Chester, married Bertrade de Montfort. 2. Mabel of Chester, married William d'Aubeney, Earl of Arundel. 3. Nichole (or Colette) d'Aubeney, married Roger de Somery, Knt. 4. Margaret de Somery, married Ralph de Cromwell, Knt. 5. John de Cromwell, Knt., married Idoine de Vipont. l. Hugh, Earl of Chester, married Bertrade de Montfort. 2. Agnes of Chester, married William de Ferrers, Earl of Chester. 3. Sibyl de Ferrers, marrried John de Vipont. 4. Robert de Vipont, married Isabel Fitz John. 5. Idoine de Vipont, married John de Cromwell, Knt. We see above that Sir John de Cromwell and his wife, Idoine de Vipont, were in fact related in the 4th degree [i.e., 3rd cousins], by common descent from Hugh, Earl of Chester (died 1181), presuming that Complete Peerage has correctly identified Sir John's "probable" parentage. As for other evidence of Sir John de Cromwell's parentage, we saw above that Complete Peerage expressed doubt if Sir John Cromwell had issue, but added that if such issue existed by a previous marriage, "they would not necessarily appear in the records." That statement is patently false. The following two records prove that Sir John de Cromwell had at least two sons, Sir Ralph de Cromwell, living in 1315, and Richard de Cromwell, living in 1331, although by what wife or mistress it is not stated. 1. Calendar of Close Rolls, 1313–1318 (1893): 230: "Enrollment of grant from John de Cromwell, knight, to Sir Ralph de Cromwell, knight, his son, of his manor of Wrenstede, in the county of Kent, in the parish of Frethenestede, and the advowson of the church. Dated at London, Friday after Holy Trinity, 8 Edward II [1315]." END OF QUOTE. 2. Papal Registers: Letters 2 (1895): 353: Date: 1331. 10 Kal. Nov. [23 October] Avignon. To Richard, son of John de Crumbewell, knight, of the diocese of Lincoln. Indult that that his confessor shall give him plenary absolution at the hour of death). 3. By fine dated 1320, John de Croumbwell [Cromwell] granted the reversion of the manor of Bleasby, Nottinghamshire to Richard de Croumbwell [Cromwell] and his issue. In default of such issue, the manor was to revert to the right heirs of John de Cromwell. We see above that Sir John de Cromwell conveyed the manor of Wrenstede (in Frinsted), Kent in 1315 to his son, Ralph Cromwell, Knt. However, Feudal Aids 3 (1904): 15 indicates that it was Richard de Cromwell who held the manor of Frinsted, Kent in 1316. So it is possible that son Richard de Cromwell mentioned in 1331 is the same person as Sir Ralph de Cromwell named in 1315. Sheffield City Archives: Estate papers of the Copley Family, Baronets, of Sprotborough, CD/376 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk) indicates that Richard de Cromwell, of Bleasby, Nottinghamshire was living in 1325. Presumably this Richard de Cromwell is the same person as Richard de Cromwell, Knt. who owed debts in 1337 and 1341 [see National Archives, C 241/110/230; C 241/114/11]. So we have indications that Sir John de Cromwell had at least one son, Richard de Cromwell, who appears to have been knighted, who held manors in Kent and Nottinghamshire by the gift of his father. The following evidence suggests that Richard de Cromwell was probably illegitimate. Recently I located a lawsuit dated 1341, whereby Henry de Chalfhunte and Maud his wife sued Richard de Crumbwell, knight in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Wrenstede (in Frinsted), Kent [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/326, image 194f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no326/aCP40no326fronts/IMG_0194.htm)]. In the course of the lawsuit, Ralph de Crumbwell, Knt., the elder was called to warranty. Sir Ralph de Crumbwell is specifically named as “kinsman and heir” of John de Crumbwell, Knt. We can be certain that the deceased Sir John de Cromwell named in this lawsuit is the one who married Idoine de Vipont. But who was Sir Ralph de Cromwell, senior who was named as his kinsman and heir? The answer to that question lies in yet another record dated 1340-1, whereby "Ralph de Crumbewell, the elder," was licensed to grant a messuage and rent in Lambley, Nottinghamshire to a chaplain in the church of the Holy Trinity there, retaining land and rent in Lambley and Cromwell, Nottinghamshire [Reference: National Archives, C 143/254/1]. Ralph de Cromwell, the elder in the record dated 1340-1 can readily be identified as Sir Ralph de Cromwell, Knt., born c. 1292, died 1356, of Cromwell, Hucknall Torkard, and Lambley, Nottinghamshire, West Hallam, Derbyshire, etc. He was styled "the elder" in 1340-1 and 1341, as he had an adult son of the same name, Ralph de Cromwell, who came of age by 1338. So how was Ralph de Cromwell, the elder related to Sir John de Cromwell? Sir Ralph de Cromwell the elder was the nephew of Sir John de Cromwell, he being the son of Sir John's older brother, Sir Ralph de Cromwell, who died in 1399. Given that Ralph de Cromwell, the elder is styled Sir John de Cromwell's kinsman and heir in 1341, this equally means that Sir Richard de Cromwell can not have been the heir to Sir John de Cromwell. This suggests that Sir Richard de Cromwell was an illegitimate son of Sir John de Cromwell. [Note: This assumes that the various references to Richard de Cromwell in this time period are for the same man]. As for the manor of Bleasby, Nottinghamshire, it appears to have been in the hands of the senior Cromwell line in 1412, which suggests that following the death of Sir Richard de Cromwell after 1341, the manor reverted by the terms of the fine in 1320 to Sir John de Cromwell's right heirs, that is, the senior line of the family. Is there any other evidence which proves Sir John de Cromwell's place in this family? Actually yes there is. Papal Registers: Letters 2 (1895): 144 indicates that John de Cromuel [Cromwell], constable of the Tower, was styled “uncle” of Baldwin de Wyeteney [Whitney], a cleric, in 1317. How were the two men related? Sir John de Cromwell's had an older half-sister, Joan de Cromwell, who married Sir Alexander de Freville, which couple in turn were the parents of Elizabeth de Freville, who married in 1301 Eustace de Whitney. It would appear that Baldwin de Whitney was a child of Elizabeth (de Freville) de Whitney. If so, it would make Sir John de Cromwell the great-uncle to Baldwin de Whitney. Although Complete Peerage makes no mention of it, Sir John de Cromwell served as Steward of the King's Household. Below is one of many records which proves he held this office. Source: Shakespeare Birthplace Trust: Gregory of Stivichall, DR10/2095 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). "Title: PERSONAL PAPERS - MISCELLANEOUS Reference: DR10/2095 Date: 1306. Certificate from Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Hereford and Essex and constable of England, that Sir John de Cromwell', steward of the king's household had testified that Sir Walter de Bedewynd' had testified to him that Sir Alexander de Fryvill' had performed his knight service in the Scottish war of 34 Edward I." END OF QUOTE. Lastly, as I stated above, Complete Peerage refers to Sir John de Cromwell's wife as Idoine, whereas I find the online Discovery catalogue refers to her more than once by the Latin form Idonia. Which form is correct? Inasmuch as the Discovery catalogue entry in question cites at least two original Parliamentary petitions for this lady which can be viewed online, it is easy to see exactly what name John de Cromwell's wife was known as during her lifetime. SC 8/172/8596 (petition dated 1305-7) refers to her as "Idoygne." SC 8/11/525 (petition dated 1332) refers to her as "Idoigne." Hence we learn from this petition that Sir John de Cromwell's wife was known as Idoygne or Idoigne (which forms may be modernized as Idoine). There is no Latin form Idonia, as alleged by the modern Discovery catalogue, in either of these records. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear Douglas, I agree entirely with your salient points. Further, I am not proposing the line from James IV, King of Scots, to Donald J. Trump, but simply calling attention to the fact it is an alleged line that is currently floating around in the greater genealogical ether. It's there to be critiqued, poked, probed and then ultimately accepted, rejected or given a Scottish verdict of "Not Proven" -- as warranted Best regards, D. Spencer Hines, Kailua, Hawai'i Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 A.D.] Satire X "Douglas Richardson" wrote in message news:46532f05-5644-4924-8f12-f09833feafe5@googlegroups.com... Dear Spencer ~ There is a small problem with the long descent you have proposed for Donald Trump from James IV, King of Scots. You have listed Donald Trump's 2nd great-grandmother as Catherine Macleaod, born 1809, wife of William MacLeod of Skerray. The online Lewis Yorkshire Wright genealogical database indicates that this woman was called Christine, Christy, and Christina in the 1841, 1851, and 1861 Censuses respectively. See the following weblink: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lewisandothers&id=P2860363471&style=TEXT She is elsewhere called Christian Macleod at the births of at least three of her children, as shown at the Family Search online database. 1. Alexander Mcleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: 10 May 1830 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Mcleod mother: Christian Macleod 2. Angus Macleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: August 1833 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Macleod Mother: Christian Mcleod 3. Catharine Macleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: February 1840 Christening: 15 September 1840 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Macleod Mother: Christian Macleod Given this information, it does not appear that this woman's name was Catherine at all. Rather it appear her name was Christian MacLeod (alternative forms being Christine, Christy, and Christina). One other matter: The same Lewis Yorkshire Wright database identifies Christian Macleod as the granddaughter of John Macleod and his wife, Mary Macritchie, whereas you have her as the granddaughter of Angus MacLeod and Mary MacKay. You're probably correct on this point but this difference in claimed grandparents should still be examined. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

For the benefit of anyone finding this thread in the future, I thought I'd follow up my earlier posts to say that I've found the proof I was looking for that Sir Thomas Echyngham was the son of Sir William Echyngham and Joan, the daughter of John, Baron Arundel and Eleanor Maltravers. The monumental brass in the chancel at Etchingham for William, Joan and Thomas once had nine coats of arms on it. Only half of one survives, but in 1776 they were evidently still there, and were recorded by William Hayley. One of the arms was directly above the depiction of Joan, and was "Quarterly, 1 & 4 a lion rampant, 2 & 4 fretty of six." [/Som & Dor Notes & Queries/, IX (1905), 297; also Spencer Hall, /Echyngham of Echyngham/ (1801), citing Add MS 6346, vol 1.] The /Dictionary of British Arms/ confirms that the Arundel / FitzAlan arms were /gules, a lion or/ [vol 1, 141], while those of Maltravers were /sable, fretty or/ [vol 4, 101]. Eleanor Maltravers was an heraldic heiress (and became Baroness Maltravers suo jure), so we would expect her daughter to include this as a quartering. According to Hayley the adjacent coat of arms, located above and between one of the left-hand male figure and Joan, was Echyngham impaling quarterly FitzAlan and Maltravers. The sinister half of this impalement (showing FitzAlan and Maltravers) is the one part of the arms that still survives, and confirms Hayley's account. These are the arms we would expect William to have borne after his marriage to John and Eleanor's daughter, and it corroborates what the Visitations of Sussex say. I still can't explain why Agnes Arundel described Joan as Lady Brian several months after we know Joan to have been married to William Echyngham. Maybe we need to consider the possibility that Sir William Bryan's wife was not Joan Arundel. Or perhaps it was just an error in the will. (I've ordered a copy of Agnes's will to check the date.) Either way, I'm now content that Sir Thomas Echyngham was the grandson of John, Baron Arundel (and has a Plantagenet descent through him). Richard

Does anyone on this list have current contact information for the Charlotte Smith who used to post to this newsgroup until about 2006? I'm trying to contact her about the Echyngham family about which she posted extensively, however the email address she used back then now bounces. (It might be better if her contact details were not shared publicly on this list; I'm posting from a valid email address that I check regularly, so I should receive any replies by email.) Richard

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 5:12:19 PM UTC-7, Richard Smith wrote: > I still can't explain why Agnes Arundel described Joan as Lady Brian > several months after we know Joan to have been married to William > Echyngham. Maybe we need to consider the possibility that Sir William > Bryan's wife was not Joan Arundel. Or perhaps it was just an error in > the will. I wouldn't get too hung up on it. I was just looking at a letter making extensive reference to Lady Coffyn, several months after widow Margaret (Dymoke) (Vernon) Coffyn had remarried to Richard Manners. This even fooled the editor into thinking it referred to William Coffyn's mother, but the context makes it clear that it was referring to the new Lady Manners. taf

Dear Spencer ~ There is a small problem with the long descent you have proposed for Donald Trump from James IV, King of Scots. You have listed Donald Trump's 2nd great-grandmother as Catherine Macleaod, born 1809, wife of William MacLeod of Skerray. The online Lewis Yorkshire Wright genealogical database indicates that this woman was called Christine, Christy, and Christina in the 1841, 1851, and 1861 Censuses respectively. See the following weblink: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lewisandothers&id=P2860363471&style=TEXT She is elsewhere called Christian Macleod at the births of at least three of her children, as shown at the Family Search online database. 1. Alexander Mcleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: 10 May 1830 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Mcleod mother: Christian Macleod 2. Angus Macleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: August 1833 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Macleod Mother: Christian Mcleod 3. Catharine Macleod Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 birth: Born: February 1840 Christening: 15 September 1840 at STORNOWAY, ROSS AND CROMARTY, SCOTLAND Father: William Macleod Mother: Christian Macleod Given this information, it does not appear that this woman's name was Catherine at all. Rather it appear her name was Christian MacLeod (alternative forms being Christine, Christy, and Christina). One other matter: The same Lewis Yorkshire Wright database identifies Christian Macleod as the granddaughter of John Macleod and his wife, Mary Macritchie, whereas you have her as the granddaughter of Angus MacLeod and Mary MacKay. You're probably correct on this point but this difference in claimed grandparents should still be examined. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The 7th item on this page seems to say: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=forgandenny+telford&=#hl=en&q=forgandenny+%22william+hall+telford%22 TELFORD, WILLIAM HALL. Born at Wick, 1844. Studied at the University and New College, Edinburgh. Ordained at Forgandenny, 1880. Translated in 1881 to [Reston] ...

Hmmmm. If Alexander's father William died in 1869, that definitely puts a crimp in the story that his wife Catherine MacLeod could have had another marriage to, and large number of children by, William Telford, living as his (Telford's) widow in Robert Mackay's account. UNLESS, perhaps, the order of marriages was reversed. The author, Robert Mackay's "Advertisement," at the beginning of the book, was dated from Edinburgh in August 1829. Perhaps the Telford marriage came first, then, sometime after 1829, the marriage to William MacLeod? This would give a bit of time for Alexander to be born in 1830 or 1832. The marriage of Catherine MacLeod and William Telford from the 1843 IGI would then refer to a different couple. But, on the other hand, a couple statements from Rev. William Hall Telford might be taken to imply he was born in 1850: 45606. Sir Kenneth Mackenzie. —Are you a native of Sutherland? —I am. 45607. Did you live a long time amongst the people there? —I lived there from 1850 till I finished my college course, and came to settle in the south. Or was Rev. William Hall Telford perhaps a grandson of William Telford and Catherine MacLeod?

Hello to the members in Genealogy Medieval. I would like to ask for some assistance which is concerning about the complete ancestry of Margaret Downton. Margaret Downton, (Margaret Lingen) was married to Thomas Downton. Margaret Lingen, she is the daughter of Richard Lingen and Isabel Holgate. Does this family have ties with the Mortimer Family? Because, I have seen many family trees online and it is very confusing overall. Any assistance with the ancestors of Margaret Lingen and it will be appreciated. Thank you and Sincerely, Bradley Johnson

More Grist For The Mill: DSH -------------------------------------- Trump Scottish Ancestry The Family History of Mary Anne MacLeod, the Mother of Donald J. Trump by Tony Reid Genealogy Mary Anne was born on 10th May 1912 at 3 Tong, Stornoway to Malcolm MacLeod and his wife Mary Smith. The family lived at Tong, a small fishing/crofting township lying 3-4 miles from Stornoway, the only town on the Isle of Lewis. The parents married in 1891 within the Free Church of Scotland, Tong. Malcolm was a local fisherman/crofter, the son of Alexander MacLeod and Annie MacLeod. At the time of the 1901 Census, Malcolm and Mary already had six children. Alexander, also a crofter/fisherman, would have been born in about 1832. He married Ann MacLeod, also a Tong resident, in 1853 and died in Tong in 1900. According to his son Malcolm, who was the informant of his father's death, Alexander was the son of William MacLeod, a crofter, and Catherine MacLeod. William died at nearby Vatisker in 1869 and, according to his son Alexander; he was the son of Kenneth MacLeod and Catherine McIver. No trace could be found of wills or testaments in respect of Alexander or William MacLeod. The book "Tong: The Story of a Lewis village", (Tong Historical Society, 1984) provides some family trees and photographs of several MacLeod's. Further research would be required to clarify the relationships of these people to Mary Anne. Geography Lewis and Harris make up the largest and northern-most island of the Outer Hebrides (or Western Isles). It is separated from the Scottish mainland by the Minch. It comprises a northern part, Lewis and a smaller but more mountainous southern part, Harris. The only town is Stornoway. Administratively, Lewis formed part of Ross-shire whilst Harris belonged to Inverness-shire. The Parish of Stornoway comprises about 100 square miles. It is generally flat countryside with a coastline which, in places, is extremely rocky. The principal bay is Broad Bay on which Aird of Tong and Tong lie. These are two coastal "settlements" lying about a mile apart. Tong is often still referred to by its Gaelic name Druim-beag. Broad Bay was considered to be unsafe for non-local vessels because of a sunken reef projecting from Aird of Tong. The village now comprises a mix of local authority and modern private housing, a primary school and community centre. There is a post office, a small church (the former post office) used by the Scottish Episcopal Church, but no shops. Many residents commute to Stornoway but crofting is still the principal local activity. Social History The following notes are based, for the most part, on the Old (1791-1799) and the New (1834-1845) Statistical Accounts of Scotland, and on the book "Tong: The Story of a Lewis Village" published by the Stornoway Gazette for Tong Historical Society (1984). Although the first Manse (Presbyterian Minister's house) for Stornoway Parish was situated in Tong, in 1758, it wasn't really until the 1820s that Tong, Aird Tong, and other areas around Broad Bay became the focus for settlers from other Hebridean localities. The impetus came from local landlords who recognised the potential of the Bay as a source of fish including cod, ling, flounder, herring and shellfish. The catches were sold to the landlords or tacksmen who owned the curing facilities. The landlords also divided up some farms into small lots which they let to the fishermen thus enabling them to grow potatoes and keep a cow for example. Because of the arduous nature of fishing, it was often the case that work on the crofts had to be done by the wives and children. The boats themselves were usually part-owned by several men. Many residents also engaged in "kelping" which involved collecting seaweed from the shore to be used as a fertilizer. Housing in the 19th Century was basic in the extreme, partly because of a lack of indigenous raw materials especially timber. One observer described the properties as "sordid huts - in general indescribably filthy with doors so low it is necessary to crawl in and out". The so-called "black houses" were made from turf, they had no windows or chimneys and housed the livestock as well as the people. The staple diet of the inhabitants comprised gruel (a form of liquid porridge) and potatoes, plus some beef and, of course, fish. According to the 1891 Census Returns, Alexander and his extended family, all spoke Gaelic. With the exception of his wife Ann, they also spoke English. The fact that Alexander used an X mark when acting as informant of his children's births suggests that he was illiterate, as was Malcolm's wife Mary Smith. Because the only church in the Parish was in Stornoway Burgh, the local people living in and around Tong had no "seat" and according to the Minister, the Rev John Cameron, were "destitute of any place of worship" in the mid 19th Century. This probably explains why no records of baptisms of Mary Anne MacLeod's ancestors have been found. The first school in Tong was opened in 1879 with 85 children enrolled. The common spoken language was Gaelic although all official documents were in English. This explains the many forename variants for the same person e.g. Kirsty, Christina, Christian. In terms of public health, the Rev John Cameron makes the following statement "there is one peculiar distemper prevalent in this island, which seizes infants about the fifth night after their birth, and carries them off in convulsive fits". The local surgeon believed that this was due to the excessive humidity of the region. This may be an explanation why so many Stornoway births in the 1855 registers do not give a forename. Perhaps the children died before they were baptized. For centuries the Isle of Lewis was owned by the landed MacKenzie (Seaforths) family. When they became bankrupt it was purchased in 1844 by James Matheson, a partner in the firm of Jardine Matheson of Hong Kong. Matheson was a rich and generous benefactor who did much to protect the crofting communities on the Island. This did not prevent subsequent unrest among the local crofting community on such heated topics as rights of tenure. This led to an ever-increasing level of emigration from Lewis, especially to North America. The disproportionate level of Highland casualties in the First World War added to the shortage of able-bodied males on the Island. Lord Leverhulme, the founder of the Lever soap business bought Lewis in 1918 with the philanthropic objective of using modern business practices to solve the Islands' problems. His grandiose plans failed which resulted in the continuation of emigration over subsequent decades. The MacLeod Clan Crest: A bull's head cabossed Sable, horned Or, between two flags Gales, staved of the First Mott Hold fast The origins of the MacLeod Clan are shrouded in mystery but it is fairly certain that its Chiefs are of Norse origin and that Leod was the younger son of Olaf the Black, one of the last Norse Kings. He is believed to have inherited the Islands of Lewis, Harris and part of Skye. Dunvegan, on Skye, was and still is, the seat of the MacLeod Chief. It was to become the virtual cultural centre of the Isles. Later the Clan split into two branches, the principal one being on Skye and the other on the Isle of Lewis where, to this day, MacLeod/McLeod is still the most prevalent surname. As with all clans, they were more-or-less continuously at war with one another and, from time to time, they fought further afield. In 1651 for example the Macleod's joined the English Royalist side at the Battle of Worcester where they were beaten by Cromwell's army and lost over 500 clansmen. They were highly skeptical of Prince Charles Edward Stuart's chances in the 1745 uprising and adopted a fairly neutral position. This enabled them to keep their estates after the Hanoverian victory at Culloden. The Clan continues to thrive and societies throughout the world (see the Associated Clan MacLeod Societies website at www.clanmacleod.org). Like many clan societies, the MacLeod's are actively involved in a DNA research project aimed at identifying a typical MacLeod DNA "fingerprint". For more information consult: www.myclan.com/clans/MacLeod_89 N.B. Tony Reid is a Partner of Scottish Roots Ancestral Research Service - Scottishroots.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- DSH Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 A.D.] Satire X

This account gives more detail, perhaps: --Robert, son of Alexander, was a Tacksman of Halmdary. He lived during the 1730s, which were times of strong religious conviction in Scotland. In 1734, the Reverend John Skeldoch was opposed by many of his flock as being too worldly. As a result of this dissention within the church, a group of people began meeting at Robert Mackay’s home. Robert, it seems, was a self-styled preacher whose favourite scripture was Abraham’s intended sacrifice of Isaac. One day in 1740, when religious fever was particularly high, the people attending the unauthorised church meeting became fanatic and suggested that Robert sacrifice his son who was sitting by his side. An altar was built and the boy prepared for sacrifice. Fortunately for the boy, a travelling merchant happened on the ceremonies and by expressing his shock of their intended deed, broke the hypnotic spell of the group who then dispersed and returned to their homes in shame. Robert married and had six children named, Angus, Robert, William, George, Murdo and a daughter. --Angus, son of Robert, was a tenant in Kinlochbeg in 1789. He married and produced four sons and two daughters: The reverend Hugh Mackay of Inverness, who died in 1804; William, who served in the Reay Fencibles, then settled in Orkney; Robert, who settled in Orkney; Angus, who settled in Orkney; a daughter who married Robert Mackay of another branch of the Aberach Mackay; and another daughter who married Angus Macleod of Carn achy. fawcetts-mackays.info/docs/Aberach%20Mackays.doc

To play devil's advocate, however, note this Gedcom style entry indicating that the Catherine MacLeod who married William Telford was born ca. 1827 and married 1843: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jandjroots/Mackay/d0005/g0000052.html#I6446 It would be impossible for this lady, if born this year, to have a son born ca. 1830. The source I mentioned earlier which implied a kinship between the Commissary Donald MacLeod and members of the MacKay family, actually differs a bit from the internet version we've been viewing: "Angus MacLeod, Carnachadh, married another daughter of Angus Mackay, Kinloch, and by her had Commissary Donald Macleod, already referred to as tenant of Whitefield near Thurso." https://books.google.com/books?id=snE5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA173&dq=%22carnachadh+married+another%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt8-7UveTMAhUE7iYKHa93BcUQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22carnachadh%20married%20another%22&f=false So, this makes Donald MacLeod's maternal grandfather "of Kinloch," whereas other sources say "Kinlochbeg." What is the difference between Kinloch and Kinlochbeg? The MacKay book covers some MacKays of Kinloch, including a Captain Angus, who had a least one daughter, and was descended thus: Donald, 1st Lord Reay = Marjory Sinclair, a last wife Captain William Mackay of Kinloch = Anne Mackay George Mackay of Kinloch = Elizabeth Mackay Captain Angus Mackay = ______ [at least one daughter,] Anne Mackay https://books.google.com/books?id=4LBBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA576&dq=%22angus+mackay%22+kinloch&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiProKcvOTMAhXCVyYKHUtZBEQQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=%22angus%20mackay%22%20kinloch&f=false However, the author notes this branch was his own close kin, so one really wouldn't expect him to have them too wrong.

Some statements by Rev. William Hall Telford, supposed half-brother of Alexander MacLeod, mentioning Skerray, Tongue, members of the MacKay family, the "Reay Fencibles" (a regiment), etc. http://napier-other.blogspot.com/2012/03/edinburgh-22-october-1883-rev-william.html http://napier-sutherland.blogspot.com/2012/03/appendix-lxx.html

I will say that it doesn't seem like the worst production I have ever seen. Also, as should be noted, it was written and published before there was any idea of Donald Trump, so can't be viewed as collusive to any "trumped up" claim of royal descent for the real estate magnate. The maintainer of the "Geni" pages should be contacted to verify the descent from Donald MacLeod to Mr. Trump. For what it's worth, this website below agrees in most specifics, stating of the linking generation, ... "No official record was made of the birth or baptism of Alexander MacLeod - the grandfather of Mary Anne MacLeod Trump) but, according to the ages shown for him in various sources, i.e. census returns, his marrage and death certificates, he would have been born in Stornoway around 1830. This was before the advent in Scotland of compulsory registration of these events in 1855. His death record reveals that both he and his father had been crofters and that each of his parents was also named MacLeod - William and Catherine." https://www.scottishroots.com/people/donald.php This is what Geni says about the same man: Alexander MacLeod Birthdate: May 1, 1830 Birthplace: Vatisker, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Scotland, United Kingdom Death: Died 1900 in Tunga, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Scotland, United Kingdom Immediate Family: Son of William MacLeod, Skerray and Catherine / Christian MacLeod Husband of Ann MacLeod Father of Malcolm (Calum) MacLeod; Ann MacLeod; Donald MacLeod; Henrietta MacLeod; Effie MacLeod and 4 others Brother of William Hall Telford, Rev., U.F. Manse, Reston; Donald Telford; John Telford; Hugh, Telford; Elizabeth Maclaucldan [sic] and 5 others https://www.geni.com/people/Alexander-MacLeod/6000000010883510348 Note that Alexander is shown with a number of (half-)siblings named Telford. This _seems_ to fit together with the passage to which Leslie first alerted us, from the MacKay book: "A daughter [of Angus MacKay] married Angus Macleod, Carnachy, and had with others Donald Macleod, an officer of the Army Commissariat, afterwards of Whitefield, near Thurso. Commissary Macleod had a daughter, Catherine, now widow of William Telford, Skerray, with issue:---Rev. William Hall Telford, U.F. Manse, Reston; Donald, married in Montreal; John married in Skerray; Hugh, died young; Elizabeth (Mrs. MacLauchlan); Mary (Mrs. Munro); Catherine; Anna; Benjamina; and Jessie." https://books.google.com/books?id=GiMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA255&dq=angus+macleod+carnachy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUw9_Bx9vMAhVDyGMKHfq6C8UQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=angus%20macleod%20carnachy&f=false While this snippet doesn't mention Catherine's possible first marriage (to MacLeod), it would account for the Geni entry showing Alexander MacLeod with Telford half-siblings. As far as the two immediate earlier MacKay generations, which are barely more than names (Robert MacKay, married _____, and had Angus MacKay, married ____), this should give us some pause, but may well be correct.

Greetings, The pedigree, related to Ernulph II de Mandeville, as I understand it, is as follows: Geoffrey II de Mandeville, 1st Earl of Essex b. before 1091 (source: ‘The Official Baronage of England showing the succession, dignities, and offices of every peer from 1066 to 1885’, (1886), Vol. I – Dukes – Viscounts, by James E. Doyle, pp. 682) or 1100/05. Geoffrey had at least 1, and perhaps 2, siblings: (1) Beatrix (b. [1105]-[Rickling, Essex] and d. April 19 [1197 or before], bur Walden Abbey; and, perhaps, (2) Alice (source: Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands – A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families, England, Earls Created 1138-1143 (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc434831801)) m. Rose de Vere (c. 1110 – 1170 or after) d. September 26, 1144 – Mildenhall, Suffolk (source: ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’, (2004), Vol. 36 (Macquarie-Martin), pp. 405) or September 14 or 16, 1144 – Mildenhall, Suffolk and bur 1163 in New Temple Church, London (source: Foundation for Medieval Genealogy - (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc434831801)) his eldest son (either illegitimate or from an earlier marriage – not, apparently, the son of Rose de Vere), Ernulph I de Mandeville b. [approx. 1110-20/1120-25]. Ernulph had at least 5 siblings: (1) Geoffrey III (d.s.p. Chester on October 21, 1166, bur Walden Abbey); (2) William (d.s.p. [Rouen/Gisors/Le Vaudreuil] Normandy on November 14, 1189, bur Abbey of Mortemer); (3) Beatrice; (4) Robert (d.s.p. before November 14, 1189); and (5) Matilda (m. (i) Peter of Ludgershall and (ii) Hugh II of Buckland (d. 1175)). (source: ‘Domesday Descendants – A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166’, Vol. II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum, (2002), by K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, p. 566; Foundation for Medieval Genealogy - (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc434831801)) m. Alice d’Oilly d. c. 1178 (source: Foundation for Medieval Genealogy - (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc434831801)) his son, Ernulph II de Mandeville b. [approx. 1140-50]. Ernulph had at least 3 siblings: (1) Geoffrey of Highworth (d. after 1190/94 and had a son Geoffrey); (2) Ralph of Kingham; and (3) Matilda (m. Adam de Port) + other daughters. (source: ‘Domesday Descendants’, Vol. II, p. 566). Ernulph was, as I understand it, the 2nd or 3rd son of Ernulph I. m. Ernulph married NN who died before c. 1185-97. He married secondly (or after NN) Maud de Luvetot c. 1185-97. d. c. 1216 his daughter, NN (Christiana) de Mandeville b. [approx. 1180-90]. NN had at least 1 sibling: (1) Ernulph III (d. 1251-54). m. Robert II de Mounteney of Mountnessing, Essex (c. 1175/85 - before Michaelmas 1224) d. in or post 1234 (source: ‘Calendar of the Close Rolls of the Reign of Henry III., preserved in the PRO’, (1908), Henry III – 1234-1237, p. 158) I cannot, however, identify any primary evidence to confirm: 1. that Ernulph II was the son of Ernulph I; 2. the identity of Ernulph II’s first wife; or 3. that NN de Mandeville was the daughter of Ernulph II. There is, however, an abundant amount of corroborative evidence for #1 and 3. Assistance with this would be much appreciated. Cheers, Pete

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 11:52:09 AM UTC-7, griffjo...@gmail.com wrote: > Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. > > Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? > > Or where I could find any more information on their children? > > Thanks LD is Sir Samuel Rush Meyrick's 1846 edition of Lewys Dwnn's "Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the marches between the years 1586 and 1613". Both volumes of this work are available at the FHL's website here: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/247270?availability=Family%20History%20Library Although Bartrum cites p. 288 of volume 2 of the Dwnn work, the pedigree you're looking for is actually on page 289, where the children of Huw [Williams] and Alice ferch John Owen are shown. Also shown is one grandchild, who happens to be the Capt. Huw Williams of Wig that you've asked about in a different inquiry.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 12:13:52 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: > On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 11:52:09 AM UTC-7, griffjo...@gmail.com wrote: > > Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. > > > > Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? > > > > Or where I could find any more information on their children? > > See the Introduction to Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400 Volume 1  > > http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/6513 > > Both sources you ask about are on p. 12: > > http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6513/ABBREVIATIONS_12.png?sequence=17&isAllowed=y > Just to be clear, the text you ask about are sources, so GX 385 is presumably p. 385 in Harley 1969 (which Barton abbreviated as GX). taf

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 11:52:09 AM UTC-7, griffjo...@gmail.com wrote: > Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. > > Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? > > Or where I could find any more information on their children? See the Introduction to Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400 Volume 1  http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/6513 Both sources you ask about are on p. 12: http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6513/ABBREVIATIONS_12.png?sequence=17&isAllowed=y taf

Thanks, both of those are interesting. I'm really wondering if there's anything out there that would show his parents or grandparents?

Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? Or where I could find any more information on their children? Thanks