On 23/05/16 12:38, Ian Goddard wrote: > There's another odd one part of which I noticed in passing. I'll dig it > out this evening. > This is another from Kirkburton. Mrs Collins has kindly provided cross references so I've included her record numbers. 6425. Agnes Beardsell daughter of Grace Beardsell and Homfray Bray was baptized the xxvth day. [July 1601] 7462. Homfray Bray and Grace Beardsell were maried the xx day. [August 1608] 7580. Homfray Bray was buried the v day. [May 1609] Note.-The Will of Homfray Bray of Hepworth was proved January 24, 1609-10, and Administration granted to Grace the wife of William Bray, his widow, with power reserved to Agnes Bray alias Birdsall, his daughter. (Nos. 6425, 7462, 7613,7614.) 7613. Willm Bray th'elder and Grace Beardsell were maried the xxxj day. 7614. Willm Bray yonger and Agnes Bray alias Beardsell were maried the xxxj day.[July 1609] It rather looks as if there must have been two Agnes Bray alias Beardsell although I haven't found the earlier baptism. Clearly the lives of the Brays and Bearsells were rather complicated. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

I wonder if there has been any attempt to create a web-based listing, more or less comprehensive, of all the Landed, Manorial, or Gentry Families in England, Wales, and the Irish Pale, on a county by county basis for the period, say, 1066-1688 (taking the Conquest and the end of Heraldic Visitations to be reasonable rough dates for coverage)? If not, is anyone else interested in the creation of such a list, and/or contributing to it? It might be useful to create such a listing as a group project so that registered people can add to it (with some kind of justification based on at least one primary source for such a claim). This could be a good opportunity for a lot of expertise that might otherwise not get recorded to be preserved and made more widely available to serious researchers. To it could be added various kinds of information such as whether there has been anything scholarly (or not) published on a given family, or whether anyone is known to be engaged in a study of a given family. Enthusiasts of a given area or surname or group of families could link to it other resources that may be useful for the study of that family, area, or grouping. While there could be sections pointing to existing resources on the web and elsewhere that provide general information, this listing would concentrate on naming specific families, and providing pointers of direct relevance for the study of individual families. Indeed, where contributors desired, it would be possible to include links to online studies of particular family or group of interrelated families. I think that this could be an extremely useful tool for researchers and help them discover instances where they were not labouring alone on a given family, or were, perhaps, duplicating, or verifying, or following up on, other research. One could also annotate the list with references to the blazons of the coats-of-arms of armigerous families, and give indications of where the family might also be found if a branch were located in another county or country. If such a guide exists in whole or in part already it could serve as a very useful basis for such an ambitious undertaking. I realise that one of the bases for creating such initial listings would be Heraldic Visitations, County Histories, and the works of genealogists such as Burke, but there must also be lists of the gentry (for want of a better word) of a given county such as I have encountered for Sussex and Wiltshire in the early 15th century, as well as Rolls of Arms, Lists of J.P., etc., that would need to be brought to the undertakers' attention for inclusion in the listing by those with more expertise or awareness of available sources. While such a listing would inevitably include families from the peerage; since these are generally fairly well covered, I would hope to see a great deal more matter gathered for families, or branches of families, that never held such rank, or which lost that rank for one reason or another. Any thoughts? Is anyone interested in such a project? Or do listers think I am trying to reinvent the wheel (or attempting the impossible)? Many thanks, in advance, for your thoughts and contributions, Richard P.S. I would be happy to contribute to lists for various counties especially Sussex and Wiltshire in England, and Co. Meath in the Irish Pale. P.P.S. Of course, by suggesting such an idea, I do not wish to imply that similar listings could be not created for other areas, such as Scotland, and countries/regions/cities on the European mainland. I am simply not focused on such research myself, at least not at the moment! P.P.P.S. Happy Victoria Day! Vivat Regina!! Vivat Regina Elizabetha!!!

Hello list - I'm a new member - researching the family van Becelaere, Beselaere and various spellings of those (NOT Besler which is Swiss) - my family originated from Ypres, Flanders in the 1500s and before, back to the 1st Crusade, 1095. My particular branch of this family fled to Hamburg about, I'm guessing,1572 - sometime in the late 1500s anyhow. The family were clothiers and belonged to the cloth guild in Ypres/Ieper. Anyone with any info, I would be thrilled to hear from you! Lora in finally warm Wisconsin

Op maandag 23 mei 2016 20:59:35 UTC+2 schreef ziggy beseler via: > Hello list - I'm a new member - researching the family van Becelaere, > Beselaere and various spellings of those (NOT Besler which is Swiss) - my > family originated from Ypres, Flanders in the 1500s and before, back to the > 1st Crusade, 1095. My particular branch of this family fled to Hamburg > about, I'm guessing,1572 - sometime in the late 1500s anyhow. The family > were clothiers and belonged to the cloth guild in Ypres/Ieper. Anyone with > any info, I would be thrilled to hear from you! > > Lora in finally warm Wisconsin No direct answer but I can confirm that Beselare is a Belgian village nowadays part of the municipal of Zonnebeke, a couple of miles east of the town of Ieper. See: https://www.google.nl/maps/place/Beselare,+8980+Zonnebeke,+Belgi%C3%AB/@50.8478927,2.8845993,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c33329755b813b:0x595ac85f57b897c0!8m2!3d50.84788!4d3.024675 https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beselare https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonnebeke https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ieper The remark that the family was present in the first crusade should be taken with caution. One could assume that they then were part of the nobility. No such family is known or recorded in The Flemish Nobility before 1300 by Dr. Hist. E. Warlop (1976). Therefore it is doubtfull if the origin of the family Van Becelaere/Beselaere, urban clothiers, can be traced back into the 13th century. Hans Vogels

On 23/05/16 12:07, Matt Tompkins wrote: > Some of these rural butchers were also occasionally presented for being fishmongers and selling sea fish against the assize. Consider how far Loughborough is from the sea! I suppose the fish must have been brought up the Trent and then carted overland - one wonders what condition they were in when they reached Loughborough market. Dried or salted? I also wonder about the state oysters were in when one finds oyster shells well inland. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On 23/05/16 11:07, Vance Mead wrote: > I don't think it's possible to decide the father's name based on this. In Ian's example they were sometimes called Kaye alias Gregson and sometimes the other way around. In my case there was someone called first Thomas Ryche, then Ryche alias Kellog, then just Kellog, from the 1470s to the 1490s. And his probable descendants in the 1530s and 40s were called sometimes Ryche alias Kellog and sometimes the other way around. In this case I think that the original name was Ryche and Kellog was the occupation. The alias could have been inherited from previous generations. I don't know where this one (also from Kirkburton) starts - possibly before the start of PRs. January 1585-6 George Coggen alias Strynger sonne unto Thomas Coggen alias Strynger was baptised the xiiiith day July 1605 John Goggyn alias Stringer and Anne Belle were maried the xxii day January 1639-40 Elizabeth daughter of William Cockin alias stringer bapt xiith I know that somewhere along the line George's marriage is also listed but the OCR isn't great so I haven't got everything on a quick search, especially as the spelling isn't consistent. The point is that we have 4 individuals spanning several generations sharing the same alias. And here's another gem: Henricus Litle alias Cuthbert et Joha Mathewman alias Archer nuptiati fuerunt xiii die mensis Junii. [1573] There's another odd one part of which I noticed in passing. I'll dig it out this evening. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 5:17:52 PM UTC+1, Peter Cockerill wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > The extract below is from the Will of Jacob Proctor Merchant Taylor of the city of London dated 1616 (Borderline medieaval!?) > > > 'Then my mynde and will is that Jane my loving wife shall have and enioye one full third parte of all my goods Chattells money and Debts which is of righte due unto her by the laudable custome of the Citie of London' > > What was the laudable custom of London? > > Thank you in anticipation. > Peter Thanks Matt and Vance. Peter

In light of Vance Mead and Ian Goddard’s posts below, in the following example, which is the father's name, Pickering or Browne? Aug. 15, 1598: Pickering als. Browne, John, Hull, mercer, Jun. 19, 1598. vol. 27, fol. 362 Index of Wills in the York Registry, 1594-1602, p.80 https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE84427 The first date is the probate and the second the will. The Borthwick Institute doesn't have the will and the probate provides no further clues except perhaps here: “... I define Jacob Blades and John Pickering ?glover? to be ?supvistes? of this my last will and to see my mynde satisfyed and done and my debts paid & discharged wth my funerall expences satisfyed.” https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ph4uvgs14qkwr1e/AAC8mZvSE2Du09sBSVDRBYE5a?dl=0 (Please correct my transcription.) Thanks for an interesting discussion. Hazel On 22/05/16 19:38, Vance Mead wrote: > Ian, I didn't know it could be a result of illegitimacy. I'm interested in a family that had several members called > Ryche alias Kelhog or Kellog (occupational name meaning hog butcher) from1470 until the 1550s. > Vance > Vance, Here's an example from Kirkburton: Dec 1607 James Kay son of Elizabeth Kay and James Gregson of Wiggen in Lancashire was baptized the vi day August 1635 James Kay alis Gregson and Mary Chappel maried the same day [xxiij] January 1635-6 Grace daughter of James Kaye alis Gregson baptized the same day [xxiij] August 1637 John sone of James Gregson alis Kay baptized the vjth day March 1642 Mary wife of James Kaye alias Gregson buried July 1642 John sone of James Gregson alias Kay buried xiithe day June 1666 James Kaye aliis Gregson buried the ffirst day I don't know what happened to Grace. Note the surnames are given in the opposite order for John's baptism and burial.

Matt Earlier you asked if it could be shown that descendants took the alias name. Difficult, since we're dealing with common surnames like Baker and Butcher. But here's one that might fit the bill, though it's not exact. Below is a list of appearances in CP of a man first called Ryche, then Riche alias Kelhog, then just Kellog (with variants). In the 1490s he, as Thomas senior, appears in a case together with Thomas Kellog junior, probably his son. They are usually called husbandman, but I suppose a Kylhog or butcher would probably work at that only part of the year and would be a husbandman the rest of the time. In the same area of Cambs and northern Essex there continued to be people variosuly called Kellog or Riche alias Kellog until the 1550s at least. Riche alias Kellogg must be descendants and Kellogg might be. Vance Thomas Ryche alias Kellog, senior, of Lynton, Cams, husbandman 1469 Trinity Cams. Thomas Ryche, of Lynton, husbandman 1471 Michaelmas Essex. Thomas Ryche alias Kelheg, of Lynton, Cams, husbandman 1472 Hilary Essex. Thomas Riche alias Kylhog, of Lynton, Cams, husbandman 1474 Hilary Cams. Thomas Ryche alias Kylhok, of Lynton, husbandman or laborer 1474 Easter Cams. Thomas Ryche alias Kylhok, of Lynton, husbandman or laborer 1496 Easter, Cams, Thomas Kellog, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1497 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellog, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Hilary, Cams, Thomas Kellog, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Easter, Cams, Thomas Kellog, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Trinity, Cams, Thomas Kellog, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellok, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1499 Trinity Cams. Thomas Kellok, senior, of Lynton, husbandman 1499 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellok, senior, of Lynton, husbandman Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton,Cams, husbandman 1496 Easter, Cams, Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1497 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Hilary, Cams, Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Easter, Cams, Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Trinity, Cams, Thomas Kellog, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1498 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellok, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1499 Trinity Cams. Thomas Kellok, junior, of Lynton, husbandman 1499 Michaelmas Cams. Thomas Kellok, junior, of Lynton, husbandman

Correction, should be Robert.

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 5:41:21 PM UTC+1, Vance Mead wrote: >>> In this case it's due to the fact that defendants are usually identified by occupation but plaintiffs usually aren't. So most of the butchers named alias Butcher will be among the defendants. ------------------------------- On 23.5.2016, at 19.49, "Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)" <mllt***.uk> wrote: >> >> Oh, yes, I see that. Is it easy to check whether there are plaintiffs whose surname was '... alias Butcher' or '... alias Baker' or '... alias Miller'? >> >> Matt ------------------------------ From: Vance [mailto:vanceme***.com] Sent: 23 May 2016 17:59 > Matt > Here's one, the administrators for Thomas Hovyse or Howse alias Baker, of New Windsor, baker. > http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1057/aCP40no1057fronts/IMG_6627.htm Vance --------------------------------- Yes, fair enough. I shall have to withdraw my theory about occupational aliases only being added to the names of defendants. Matt

On 23/05/16 07:12, Vance Mead wrote: > Matt, > It wasn't only butchers, though they were probably the most frequent. Here's an example of an alias Baker from 1510, third entry: > > Robert Mychell alias Baker of St Albans, baker > http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_0682.htm > There's a tradition of giving tradesmen nicknames based on their trades. For instance in the caption of picture 4 here http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2014/09/12/pictures-from-the-past-september-12/tuesday-36/ there's a reference to Jones the coal. My BiL tells me that his mates in the pub when he lived in London had much the same habit so a gas engineer might be John the gas irrespective of his actual surname. (It extended beyond occupations; someone who always brought his dog to the pub was Dave the dog or, after the dog died, Dave the dead dog.) It seems likely that something of the sort was at work here. If the trade name was sufficiently well established that some people might not have recognised him as Robert Mychell then the addition of the alias might have been necessary to ensure effective identification. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

This does show that "Mistris Anna Macky," sister to Lord Reay, was married to Rev. Hugh Munro of Durness by 1686, having had a former husband, Alexander Mcdonal or Mconnal, by whom she had at least one child. On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 5:05:24 PM UTC-4, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > There is this: > ------------------------------- > > About Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness > > Copy of Deed from the Macdonald Charter Chest referred to by Mr G. M. > Fraser, Portree. > > I Captain Hugh Mconal Lawfull son to umq Alexr Mcdonal of pabellseary binds > and oblidges me and my heirs to procure from Mistris Anna Macky my mother > and from Mr Hugh Munro minister of Durness her husband a full and ample > disposition and discharge to Sir Donal Mconal of Slait or his heirs of all > they can ask or crave of him after the term of Whitsunday next to come > eightie six years either upon the account of the sd mistris Anna Mckys > matrimoniall contract or any other transaction or agreement made betwixt the > Late Lord Reay her brother (with her consent) and Sir James Mackdonald of > Slait, but still w'out prejudice of qt is due to her be the sd Sir Donal > preceeding the forsd term. And in case I the sd Captain Hugh fail in > procuring the forsd disposition & discharge betwixt the dait hierof and the > term of Mertimess next to come eightie six years. Then and in yt case I bind > and oblidge me and my heirs not only to give up to the sd Sr Donal or his > heirs an contract of Wodsett granted be him to me of the Lands of Dustill > more, but Likewayes to renounce the sds Lands in favours of the sd Sr Donal > or his forsds, and also to be bound to pay to the sd Sir Donal or his forsds > the usuall rent of the sds Lands at the term of mertimess abovmention'd, and > ilk year thereafter during my stay there, and yt allenerly in case of > failing in the fullfilling of the premises. And the sd Capt Hugh binds and > oblidges me and my forsds to give up to the sd Sir Donal or his heirs an > bond of five thousand merks granted be him to me at Edr the day of years. > And farder I bind & oblidge me & my forsds to renew this my obligation to > the sd Sir Donal or his heirs ay and while they find themselves sufficiently > secured in witness qrof I have subscribed thir prit at Armidell the > thirtieth day of March on thusand six hundred & eightie six years, before > these wittnesses Donald Mconal off Castletown and Mr Martin Martin governour > to the Laird of Mcdonal younger H. Mconal > > Donald Mcdonald Witness > > https://www.geni.com/people/Rev-Hugh-Munro-minister-of-Durness/6000000020842152751 > > DSH > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: D. Spencer Hines > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:55 PM > Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval > > Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump > > I agree. I really don't think it passes the smell test and until I see > further precise details and evidence I'm not accepting it. I have however > been trying to trace both lines and the Rodham line is particularly > questionable. Trump is not even Donald's "Real Name" of course. DSH Lux et > Veritas et Libertas > > "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two > thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to the > human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into the > world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals](1927) > Julien Benda (1867-1956) > > "Leo van de Pas via" wrote in message > news:mailman.11.1440624817.20542.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com... > Olivier Guionneau sent the following: > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210778/Donald-Trump-Hillary-Clinton-revealed-distant-cousins-family-trees-share-set-royal-ancestors.html > > True or False? > > I started checking from the top, from familiar information towards the new > details. With the Hillary Clinton line I got as far as Dorothy Ogle, Lady > Grey, mother of Isabel Grey. This Isabel was married to Sir Ralph Grey of > Chillingham.Sir Ralph and Isabel are ancestors of Prince Charles, according > to Gerald Paget they are N12475 and N12476. I have not seen a list of all > their children but so far I found five sons and two daughters : Isabel > married to Sir Francis Radcliffe and Dorothy married to Sir Robert Delaval. > I prefer not to jump in and say, isn't this great. > > I can't find a daughter Margaret married to a Rodham, mother of a Roddam, > father of a Rodham. And here is where my acceptance of this line stops. I > hope I am too cautious. Now Donald Trump's line. I went as far as Alexander > Gordon, 12th Earl of Sutherland, and his daughter Lady Jane mother of Donald > Mackay. This Donald, 1st Lord Reay, married a few times and is father of an > Ann Mackay who married Alexander Macdonald (see BP 1999 page 2376) no > legitimate daughter Anna married to a Munro. But BP maintains this Donald > had illegitimate children and then only mentions a son Donald, which leaves > it open that there is an illegitimate daughter Anna. Again as the > information seems insecure to me, I won't be adding this lineage, not until > more secure information emerges. What do others think? Leo van de Pas > Canberra, Australia. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem > > Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 > A.D.] Satire X

In this case it's due to the fact that defendants are usually identified by occupation but plaintiffs usually aren't. So most of the butchers named alias Butcher will be among the defendants.

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 6:56:56 AM UTC-7, Matt Tompkins wrote: > I also notice that in all three of your examples the aliases are the names > of defendants, not plaintiffs. It's a small sample, but this may suggest > that in the 16C people did not describe themselves by occupational > aliases, but only included them when suing others, in order to avoid > nonsuit for mis-naming the defendant. Perhaps there is a parallel to the later Welsh practice of using an informal occupational byname (admittedly more needed in a Wales that even when they adopted patronymic surnames used such a limited naming pool that there might be five men named William Lewis in the same village). taf

Correction: "This Ann Mackay is said to have married an Alexander Macdonald, brother of James Macdonald of Sleat. Her mother is allegedly the daughter of Robert Thomson of Greenwich, co. Surrey -- and to have been Keeper of the Queen's Wardrobe [Queen Henrietta Maria's, wife of Charles I?]." That should read: "This Ann Mackay is said to have married an Alexander Macdonald, brother of James Macdonald of Sleat. Her mother, Elizabeth Thomson, is allegedly the daughter of Robert Thomson of Greenwich, co. Surrey, Keeper of the Queen's Wardrobe [Queen Henrietta Maria's, wife of Charles I?]." DSH Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 A.D.] Satire X "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message news:nhvdos$k70$1@dont-email.me... So, what can we learn from this alleged 1686 document? Well, we have a Captain Hugh McDonald who tells us his mother is Anna Mackay and she is now married to The Reverend Hugh Munro, Minister of Durness. So far, that is completely consonant with what we know from other sources about the Anna Mackay who is allegedly the ancestress of Mary Anne Macleod -- the mother of Donald J. Trump. What else can we smoke out. Well this alleged 30 Mar 1686 document indicates that the late Lord Reay was Capt Hugh's mother's brother, i.e., his own uncle. How does that match with this? http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/reay1628.htm It matches. John Mackay, 2nd Lord Reay, born ca. 1612, dies ca 1681. ...And he is the half-brother of an Honourable Ann Mackay, daughter of Donald Mackay, 1st Lord Reay and Elizabeth Thomson. Elizabeth Thomson was allegedly the third wife of this first Lord Reay, married him in 1631 and died ca. Jun 1637. Donald Mackay [ca. 1590/1-1649], 1st Lord Reay, had four wives and it is understandably difficult to track all his children. But Ann and Anna are common cognate Christian names, so there is no particular hiccup there. This Ann Mackay is said to have married an Alexander Macdonald, brother of James Macdonald of Sleat. Her mother is allegedly the daughter of Robert Thomson of Greenwich, co. Surrey -- and to have been Keeper of the Queen's Wardrobe [Queen Henrietta Maria's, wife of Charles I?]. Captain Hugh Macdonald tells us his father was Alexander Macdonald, so that fits too. He appears to have been the first husband of Anna Mackay and The Reverend Hugh Munro was the second. Therefore, an Anna Mackay, with descent from Edward III [8th great-granddaughter] and James IV, King of Scots [4th great-granddaughter] as ancestress of Mary Anne Macleod Trump, mother of Donald J. Trump, is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility. DSH Manu Forti. ------------------------------- About Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness Copy of Deed from the Macdonald Charter Chest referred to by Mr G. M. Fraser, Portree. I Captain Hugh Mconal Lawfull son to umq Alexr Mcdonal of pabellseary binds and oblidges me and my heirs to procure from Mistris Anna Macky my mother and from Mr Hugh Munro minister of Durness her husband a full and ample disposition and discharge to Sir Donal Mconal of Slait or his heirs of all they can ask or crave of him after the term of Whitsunday next to come eightie six years either upon the account of the sd mistris Anna Mckys matrimoniall contract or any other transaction or agreement made betwixt the Late Lord Reay her brother (with her consent) and Sir James Mackdonald of Slait, but still w'out prejudice of qt is due to her be the sd Sir Donal preceeding the forsd term. And in case I the sd Captain Hugh fail in procuring the forsd disposition & discharge betwixt the dait hierof and the term of Mertimess next to come eightie six years. Then and in yt case I bind and oblidge me and my heirs not only to give up to the sd Sr Donal or his heirs an contract of Wodsett granted be him to me of the Lands of Dustill more, but Likewayes to renounce the sds Lands in favours of the sd Sr Donal or his forsds, and also to be bound to pay to the sd Sir Donal or his forsds the usuall rent of the sds Lands at the term of mertimess abovmention'd, and ilk year thereafter during my stay there, and yt allenerly in case of failing in the fullfilling of the premises. And the sd Capt Hugh binds and oblidges me and my forsds to give up to the sd Sir Donal or his heirs an bond of five thousand merks granted be him to me at Edr the day of years. And farder I bind & oblidge me & my forsds to renew this my obligation to the sd Sir Donal or his heirs ay and while they find themselves sufficiently secured in witness qrof I have subscribed thir prit at Armidell the thirtieth day of March on thusand six hundred & eightie six years, before these wittnesses Donald Mconal off Castletown and Mr Martin Martin governour to the Laird of Mcdonal younger H. Mconal Donald Mcdonald Witness https://www.geni.com/people/Rev-Hugh-Munro-minister-of-Durness/6000000020842152751 DSH -------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: D. Spencer Hines Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:55 PM Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump I agree. I really don't think it passes the smell test and until I see further precise details and evidence I'm not accepting it. I have however been trying to trace both lines and the Rodham line is particularly questionable. Trump is not even Donald's "Real Name" of course. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals](1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956) "Leo van de Pas via" wrote in message news:mailman.11.1440624817.20542.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com... Olivier Guionneau sent the following: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210778/Donald-Trump-Hillary-Clinton-revealed-distant-cousins-family-trees-share-set-royal-ancestors.html True or False? I started checking from the top, from familiar information towards the new details. With the Hillary Clinton line I got as far as Dorothy Ogle, Lady Grey, mother of Isabel Grey. This Isabel was married to Sir Ralph Grey of Chillingham.Sir Ralph and Isabel are ancestors of Prince Charles, according to Gerald Paget they are N12475 and N12476. I have not seen a list of all their children but so far I found five sons and two daughters : Isabel married to Sir Francis Radcliffe and Dorothy married to Sir Robert Delaval. I prefer not to jump in and say, isn't this great. I can't find a daughter Margaret married to a Rodham, mother of a Roddam, father of a Rodham. And here is where my acceptance of this line stops. I hope I am too cautious. Now Donald Trump's line. I went as far as Alexander Gordon, 12th Earl of Sutherland, and his daughter Lady Jane mother of Donald Mackay. This Donald, 1st Lord Reay, married a few times and is father of an Ann Mackay who married Alexander Macdonald (see BP 1999 page 2376) no legitimate daughter Anna married to a Munro. But BP maintains this Donald had illegitimate children and then only mentions a son Donald, which leaves it open that there is an illegitimate daughter Anna. Again as the information seems insecure to me, I won't be adding this lineage, not until more secure information emerges. What do others think? Leo van de Pas Canberra, Australia. ------------------------------------------------------------ Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 A.D.] Satire X

So, what can we learn from this alleged 1686 document? Well, we have a Captain Hugh McDonald who tells us his mother is Anna Mackay and she is now married to The Reverend Hugh Munro, Minister of Durness. So far, that is completely consonant with what we know from other sources about the Anna Mackay who is allegedly the ancestress of Mary Anne Macleod -- the mother of Donald J. Trump. What else can we smoke out. Well this alleged 30 Mar 1686 document indicates that the late Lord Reay was Capt Hugh's mother's brother, i.e., his own uncle. How does that match with this? http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/reay1628.htm It matches. John Mackay, 2nd Lord Reay, born ca. 1612, dies ca 1681. ...And he is the half-brother of an Honourable Ann Mackay, daughter of Donald Mackay, 1st Lord Reay and Elizabeth Thomson. Elizabeth Thomson was allegedly the third wife of this first Lord Reay, married him in 1631 and died ca. Jun 1637. Donald Mackay [ca. 1590/1-1649], 1st Lord Reay, had four wives and it is understandably difficult to track all his children. But Ann and Anna are common cognate Christian names, so there is no particular hiccup there. This Ann Mackay is said to have married an Alexander Macdonald, brother of James Macdonald of Sleat. Her mother is allegedly the daughter of Robert Thomson of Greenwich, co. Surrey -- and to have been Keeper of the Queen's Wardrobe [Queen Henrietta Maria's, wife of Charles I?]. Captain Hugh Macdonald tells us his father was Alexander Macdonald, so that fits too. He appears to have been the first husband of Anna Mackay and The Reverend Hugh Munro was the second. Therefore, an Anna Mackay, with descent from Edward III [8th great-granddaughter] and James IV, King of Scots [4th great-granddaughter] as ancestress of Mary Anne Macleod Trump, mother of Donald J. Trump, is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility. DSH Manu Forti. ------------------------------- About Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness Copy of Deed from the Macdonald Charter Chest referred to by Mr G. M. Fraser, Portree. I Captain Hugh Mconal Lawfull son to umq Alexr Mcdonal of pabellseary binds and oblidges me and my heirs to procure from Mistris Anna Macky my mother and from Mr Hugh Munro minister of Durness her husband a full and ample disposition and discharge to Sir Donal Mconal of Slait or his heirs of all they can ask or crave of him after the term of Whitsunday next to come eightie six years either upon the account of the sd mistris Anna Mckys matrimoniall contract or any other transaction or agreement made betwixt the Late Lord Reay her brother (with her consent) and Sir James Mackdonald of Slait, but still w'out prejudice of qt is due to her be the sd Sir Donal preceeding the forsd term. And in case I the sd Captain Hugh fail in procuring the forsd disposition & discharge betwixt the dait hierof and the term of Mertimess next to come eightie six years. Then and in yt case I bind and oblidge me and my heirs not only to give up to the sd Sr Donal or his heirs an contract of Wodsett granted be him to me of the Lands of Dustill more, but Likewayes to renounce the sds Lands in favours of the sd Sr Donal or his forsds, and also to be bound to pay to the sd Sir Donal or his forsds the usuall rent of the sds Lands at the term of mertimess abovmention'd, and ilk year thereafter during my stay there, and yt allenerly in case of failing in the fullfilling of the premises. And the sd Capt Hugh binds and oblidges me and my forsds to give up to the sd Sir Donal or his heirs an bond of five thousand merks granted be him to me at Edr the day of years. And farder I bind & oblidge me & my forsds to renew this my obligation to the sd Sir Donal or his heirs ay and while they find themselves sufficiently secured in witness qrof I have subscribed thir prit at Armidell the thirtieth day of March on thusand six hundred & eightie six years, before these wittnesses Donald Mconal off Castletown and Mr Martin Martin governour to the Laird of Mcdonal younger H. Mconal Donald Mcdonald Witness https://www.geni.com/people/Rev-Hugh-Munro-minister-of-Durness/6000000020842152751 DSH -------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: D. Spencer Hines Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:55 PM Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump I agree. I really don't think it passes the smell test and until I see further precise details and evidence I'm not accepting it. I have however been trying to trace both lines and the Rodham line is particularly questionable. Trump is not even Donald's "Real Name" of course. DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals](1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956) "Leo van de Pas via" wrote in message news:mailman.11.1440624817.20542.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com... Olivier Guionneau sent the following: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210778/Donald-Trump-Hillary-Clinton-revealed-distant-cousins-family-trees-share-set-royal-ancestors.html True or False? I started checking from the top, from familiar information towards the new details. With the Hillary Clinton line I got as far as Dorothy Ogle, Lady Grey, mother of Isabel Grey. This Isabel was married to Sir Ralph Grey of Chillingham.Sir Ralph and Isabel are ancestors of Prince Charles, according to Gerald Paget they are N12475 and N12476. I have not seen a list of all their children but so far I found five sons and two daughters : Isabel married to Sir Francis Radcliffe and Dorothy married to Sir Robert Delaval. I prefer not to jump in and say, isn't this great. I can't find a daughter Margaret married to a Rodham, mother of a Roddam, father of a Rodham. And here is where my acceptance of this line stops. I hope I am too cautious. Now Donald Trump's line. I went as far as Alexander Gordon, 12th Earl of Sutherland, and his daughter Lady Jane mother of Donald Mackay. This Donald, 1st Lord Reay, married a few times and is father of an Ann Mackay who married Alexander Macdonald (see BP 1999 page 2376) no legitimate daughter Anna married to a Munro. But BP maintains this Donald had illegitimate children and then only mentions a son Donald, which leaves it open that there is an illegitimate daughter Anna. Again as the information seems insecure to me, I won't be adding this lineage, not until more secure information emerges. What do others think? Leo van de Pas Canberra, Australia. ------------------------------------------------------------ Fortem Posce Animum Mortis Terrore Carentem Decimus Junius Juvenalis [Juvenal] (ca. 60 A.D. Aquino, Italy - ca. 127 A.D.] Satire X

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 12:54:28 PM UTC+1, Vance Mead wrote: > Matt, > > These examples in Common Pleas are relatively rare - no more than a dozen cases in a term with 5000 entries. But they occur often enough that it suggests to me that surnames at least in some cases were still fluid. Here's another example in 1538: > > Thomas Parkyns alias Myller of Newbury, Berkshire, miller. > > http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1873.htm > > Vance This is very interesting, Vance. Your examples differ from mine in that in yours the alias is explicit - both surnames are given. I'm tempted to see a difference from the earlier unstable by-names of the 12-14C, when a man would generally appear under one or other name, but not usually under both in the same reference, and to hypothesise that in the 16C there was a consciousness that these men had a hereditary surname but were also occasionally known by their occupation. I also notice that in all three of your examples the aliases are the names of defendants, not plaintiffs. It's a small sample, but this may suggest that in the 16C people did not describe themselves by occupational aliases, but only included them when suing others, in order to avoid nonsuit for mis-naming the defendant. It would be interesting to know whether any of these butchers, bakers etc. left descendants who were known solely by the occupational surname. Matt

> On 23/05/16 12:07, Matt Tompkins wrote: > > > Some of these rural butchers were also occasionally presented for being fishmongers and selling sea fish against the assize. Consider how far Loughborough is from the sea! I suppose the fish must have been brought up the Trent and then carted overland - one wonders what condition they were in when they reached Loughborough market. > On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 12:41:09 PM UTC+1, Ian Goddard wrote: > Dried or salted? > Ah, yes, that'll be it. A bit of googling suggests herring were the fish most commonly sold inland. Apparently, if stored in brine in water-tight barrels they could keep for a year. Matt

Matt, These examples in Common Pleas are relatively rare - no more than a dozen cases in a term with 5000 entries. But they occur often enough that it suggests to me that surnames at least in some cases were still fluid. Here's another example in 1538: Thomas Parkyns alias Myller of Newbury, Berkshire, miller. http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1096/aCP40no1096fronts/IMG_1873.htm Vance