On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 10:45:32 AM UTC-4, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > What is genetic ancestry testing? This U.S. Library of Medicine article does not cherry-pick or provide quotes out of context and misapply them. > https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/testing/ancestrytesting ULM? No. I'm a little lost on your primary thesis. It seems to be that all "at-home" ancestry tests used for genealogy are fraudulent scams. This is not supported at all by any of your (free) links that you posted whatsoever, or any logical analysis of the evidence. There is a general misunderstanding perhaps about how much ethnic groups are more of a social construct than a biological one, but there is certainly truth in that until recently, there is a strong correlation between how closely two people lived from one another and how closely they were related. The wider disparity, the easier to figure out these clues in the DNA. Can an "At-home" test tell me whether my ancestors were from Dublin or Cork? No. Can they tell Eastern Europeans apart from South-east Asians? Certainly. Can they tell Italians apart from Irish? Also, almost certainly. There is a wider issue of the populations used to calculate these statistical conclusions, and what they are targeting, especially with regard to time period (And the fact they are statistical analysis does not invalidate them as you would imply). It has only been 5 years or less perhaps that general autosomnal testing of any quality has been widely available. Criticizing at-home DNA tests that are based on trying to grab ethnicity out of a Y-DNA or Mitochondrial DNA test may be valid, but it has no bearing on 2016.
On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 10:29:54 AM UTC-7, taf wrote: > On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 7:45:32 AM UTC-7, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > > The American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) developed a position paper > > on ancestry testing, with their final testing statement, dated 13 Nov > > 2008. > > As has already been pointed out to you 2008 is ancient history. Let me say that while this position paper is dated with regard to the specifics, their general comments about the need for more clear communication of the strengths and limitations, along with highlighting the need for more information, are valid (yet so generic that they would apply to any direct-to-consumer science, where a deeper knowledge base and better communication is always preferable). taf
On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 7:45:32 AM UTC-7, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > What is genetic ancestry testing? This U.S. Library of Medicine article > does not cherry-pick or provide quotes out of context and misapply them. Just to be clear, this is from the Genetics Home Reference, a set of highly simplified presentation of genetic concepts for a non-scholarly audience. Given that the site you supply doesn't name any sources or provide any quotes, nor does it pretend that a 2007 study of mtDNA in Etruscans and Tuscans is relevant to Ancestry's autosomal testing, this question is just a straw man. > The American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) developed a position paper > on ancestry testing, with their final testing statement, dated 13 Nov > 2008. As has already been pointed out to you 2008 is ancient history. > And bringing this forward to 2013, as to putative close relatives. > there is "The risk of false inclusion of a relative in parentage testing – > an in silico population study", also from U.S. National Library of > Medicine, National Institute of Health. "Aim - To investigate the > potential of false inclusion of a close genetic relative in paternity > testing by using computer generated families." . . . "Conclusions - The > results highlight the risk of false inclusion in parentage testing. Yet again this compares apples and oranges, but more importantly this study is being misattributed. It is a study by the College of Medicine, National Taiwan University, Taipei, and the Central Police University, Taoyuan, Taiwan, that was published in the Croatian Medical Journal - not exactly a top-flight journal. Indeed, it is the type of journal into which one dumps material just to fluff out one's resume without having to pass rigorous peer review. It has nothing to do with the National Library of Medicine, except that the NLM hosts a database of all published papers from thousands of biomedical journals. To attribute this study to NLM would be like saying that everything in this newsgroup is 'from Google' simply because Google hosts the posts. That being said, the study cited analyzes 15 short tandem repeats and addressed whether in a scenario when a child and mother have tested samples one could unambiguously distinguish the father from a paternal uncle or other close male relative within three generations. Nobody does this analysis on 15 STRs any more, and it is no surprise to me that the best journal they could find to publish this was from Croatia. More importantly, Ancestry does not use STRs at all for their regional ethnicity analyses, and while STRs are used along with single nucleotide polymorphisms for male lineage analyses, these analyses are not trying to do what the journal article is addressing, to definitively conclude which of two brothers might be father of a child. The study is completely irrelevant to the analyses you are trying to condemn. This is made clear from the conclusion. You quote it as saying: "Conclusions - The results highlight the risk of false inclusion in parentage testing." but it continues: "These data provide a valuable reference when incorporating either a mutation in the father’s DNA type or if a close relative is included as being the father" making it clear that either one sentence is being deceptively, intentionally cherry-picked out of the conclusion of an article that is addressing a different question, or else the reader failed to understand the article at all. I will leave it to others to conclude which is the more likely scenario (not that the two are mutually exclusive). > Therefore, TAF, and all other notable senior genealogists: go figure, or > calculate, how this negatively plays out with confidence levels, using the > more limited DNA testing that actually can be done (using even known paper > or compiled professionally documented pedigrees), over time; or pay your > own money to read articles presented cheerfully and freely to you, Still haven't read that article you cited yesterday, have you? taf
genealogyofthewesternworld@gmail.com wrote: "I spent some months on WikiTree and finally gave up on it. It's simply a mess. To achieve true quality control would probably require purging the entire database and starting over with tighter controls. I, for one, would hate to see THP caught up in that bedlam. Just my humble opinion." I do not disagree, and that is not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that wiki software is a good medium for smaller projects, and that wikis do not need to be like wikitree. Concerning wikitree I was making a secondary point, which is that it is improving slowly, and that projects within that wiki can get benefits out of having a source like the H2 project. Regards Andrew
On 30/05/2016 6:00 AM, taf via wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:32:57 AM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin via wrote: >> Today, I noticed the following study claiming that the strain of face >> mites in our bodies depends on our ancestry. >> >> http://www.pnas.org/content/112/52/15958.full.pdf >> >> So, are the DNA genealogy companies going to start offering face mite >> DNA tests? :-) > This is just the latest of several 'companions' that have such a relationship - for example it has already been determined that this is the case with certain gut bacteria. > > Eek - so if you don't like your ancestry you can have bacteriotherapy to change it? Peter Stewart
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 10:02:05 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:09:32 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Your conclusions are flawed and the primary reason is that your references > > are seven to nine years old, which is significant when dealing with new > > technology. > > True. Likewise the original poster cited conclusions based on mtDNA to indict analysis that is based on nuclear genome analysis - apples and oranges. > > > Ancestry.com has built up an enormous database that gives a surprisingly > > good ethnicity estimate that attempts to reach back about 300-500 years. > > Not when my uncle did it. > > > > > I am English, German, French, Italian, Irish, Dutch, etc, etc. and my > > ethnicity (country of origin, really), percentages for each are extremely > > accurate on ancestry.com. > > My uncle's analysis was not good at all, with error bars larger than the average (e.g. 15% Scandinavian, +/- 25% - that is just statistical noise being portrayed as firm data). > > > They have built up a mathematically significant sized database, and > > dedicating increasingly larger amounts of processing power (mainly an > > iterative algorithm) to the problem and making very good progress. > > The problem is not with their statistical or processing power, it is with an oversimplification of what the statistics mean (an oversimplification necessary for mass marketing, but still fundamentally misleading). > > > I accept your conclusions were much more accurate in 2007 or 2009. > > They weren't accurate then either. The original poster has cherry-picked quotes out of context and misapplied them. > > taf REPLY: TAF, God bless you, you never change. What is genetic ancestry testing? This U.S. Library of Medicine article does not cherry-pick or provide quotes out of context and misapply them. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/testing/ancestrytesting The American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) developed a position paper on ancestry testing, with their final testing statement, dated 13 Nov 2008. "Perhaps the most important aspect of reporting confidence in ancestry determinations is to accurately convey the level of uncertainty in the interpretations and to convey the real meaning of that uncertainty." . . . "Population genetic inference is ultimately a statistical exercise, and rarely can definitive conclusions about ancestry be made beyond the assessment of whether putative close relatives are or are not related." . . . http://www.ashg.org/pdf/ASHGAncestryTestingStatement_FINAL.pdf And bringing this forward to 2013, as to putative close relatives. there is "The risk of false inclusion of a relative in parentage testing – an in silico population study", also from U.S. National Library of Medicine, National Institute of Health. "Aim - To investigate the potential of false inclusion of a close genetic relative in paternity testing by using computer generated families." . . . "Conclusions - The results highlight the risk of false inclusion in parentage testing. These data provide a valuable reference when incorporating either a mutation in the father’s DNA type or if a close relative is included as being the father; particularly when there are varying numbers of non-matching loci." Interestingly, "The chance of a false inclusion and exclusion is greater when testing one putative parent and an offspring (a duo scenario) than when there is an additional confirmed parent (a trio scenario)." So, even at this basic level, using "10 000 computer-simulated families over three generations [that] were generated based on genotypes using 15 short tandem repeat loci." . . . "The results highlight the risk of false inclusion in parentage testing." Therefore, TAF, and all other notable senior genealogists: go figure, or calculate, how this negatively plays out with confidence levels, using the more limited DNA testing that actually can be done (using even known paper or compiled professionally documented pedigrees), over time; or pay your own money to read articles presented cheerfully and freely to you, for your easy use, your easy access, and your increased understanding, without posting your own self doubt and personal recriminations. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692333/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692333/ https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/testing/ancestrytesting
Is there a consensus among the experts here that this is true? Or false? The conflicting sources that I have read so far leaves the question open.
On Monday, 30 May 2016 06:18:33 UTC+1, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-3, taf wrote: > > On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > > > > > Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri > > > --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis > > > vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for > > > this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia > > > Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) > > > > The text of this source reads: > > > > INNOCENTIUS EPISCOPUS etc. Dilecte filie Nobili mulieri ... Sorori Carissimi in Christo filii nostri ... Illustris Regis Scotie, salutem etc. Pium arbitramur et congruum, ut in hiis prompti simus ad gratiam, que profectum respiciunt animarum, presertim circa personas nobiles, que pura fide conspicue deo et ecclesie sunt devote. Hinc est, quod nos tue nobilitatis precibus annuentes, ut cum sex matronis honestis monasterium de Doberan Cisterciensis ordinis Zverinensis diocesis, cuius Nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit, bis vel ter in anno causa devotionis intrare valeas, eiusdem ordinis statuto contrario non obstante, tibi auctoritate presentium conferimus facultatem. Datum Lugduni XIII. Kal. Iunii, Pontificatus nostri anno quinto. > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=ADxQAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50 > > > > taf > > Many thanks for the info, Todd. > > What do or can make out of this document? Any insights? > > Thanks. > > JL Firstly, the name of the sister of the king of the Scots (Alexander II) is not given. Secondly we are told that her husband, B. de Rostock founded the Cistercian monastery of Doberan. Since the monastery was founded in or about 1186, she is more likely to have been the second wife of Borwin (or Burwin) I of Rostock, than his son Borwin II. The second wife of Borwin I was called Adelaide, and she had an only daughter Elisabeth (d. 1265), abbess of Wienhausen Abbey from 1241. Regards, John
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-3, taf wrote: > On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > > > Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri > > --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis > > vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for > > this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia > > Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) > > The text of this source reads: > > INNOCENTIUS EPISCOPUS etc. Dilecte filie Nobili mulieri ... Sorori Carissimi in Christo filii nostri ... Illustris Regis Scotie, salutem etc. Pium arbitramur et congruum, ut in hiis prompti simus ad gratiam, que profectum respiciunt animarum, presertim circa personas nobiles, que pura fide conspicue deo et ecclesie sunt devote. Hinc est, quod nos tue nobilitatis precibus annuentes, ut cum sex matronis honestis monasterium de Doberan Cisterciensis ordinis Zverinensis diocesis, cuius Nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit, bis vel ter in anno causa devotionis intrare valeas, eiusdem ordinis statuto contrario non obstante, tibi auctoritate presentium conferimus facultatem. Datum Lugduni XIII. Kal. Iunii, Pontificatus nostri anno quinto. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=ADxQAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50 > > taf Many thanks for the info, Todd. What do or can make out of this document? Any insights? Thanks. JL
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:45:09 PM UTC-3, abm...@gmail.com wrote: > You can go to the Foundations website and purchase that issue I believe, or subscribe and read it online. I did some research on the subject for Andrew a couple of years ago. > > Adrian Benjamin Burke Unfortunately, due to the restrictions momentarily in place in my country, I can't send money abroad for anything. This is about to change...however, I am not, monetarily wise, able to do so even if restrictions were not in place. JL
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:52:50 PM UTC-7, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:09:32 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:58:26 PM UTC-4, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > > > Ignorance, False Promises and Pseudoscience: Is This > > > Profit Promotion of DNA Fiction by Senior Genealogists? > > > > > > In 2013, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suggested "New Technology Makes Family History Easier, Even Fun", noting "An interesting development in family history research is the use of DNA testing to discover one’s ethnicity." > > > https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-technology-makes-family-history-easier-even-fun?lang=eng > > > > > <snip> > > > > Your conclusions are flawed and the primary reason is that your references are seven to nine years old, which is significant when dealing with new technology. Ancestry.com has built up an enormous database that gives a surprisingly good ethnicity estimate that attempts to reach back about 300-500 years. > > > > I am English, German, French, Italian, Irish, Dutch, etc, etc. and my ethnicity (country of origin, really), percentages for each are extremely accurate on ancestry.com. The same is true for my English, Irish, Polish, French, German, (etc), wife. > > > > They have built up a mathematically significant sized database, and dedicating increasingly larger amounts of processing power (mainly an iterative algorithm) to the problem and making very good progress. > > > > I accept your conclusions were much more accurate in 2007 or 2009. > > --Joe Cook > --------------------------------------------- > REPLY: > Received: 12 Jan 2015 > Accepted: 5 Oct 2015 > Published online: 14 Dec 2015 > > Ethnic and Racial Studies > Volume 39, Issue 2, 2016 > Special Issue: The Impact of Diasporas: Markers of Identity > > In the blood: the myth and reality of genetic markers of identity > > ABSTRACT > . . . statistical methods are nonetheless claimed to be able to predict successfully the population of origin of a DNA sample. Such methods are employed in commercial genetic ancestry tests, and particular genetic signatures, often in the male-specific Y-chromosome or maternally-inherited mitochondrial DNA, have become widely identified with particular ancestral or existing groups, such as Vikings, Jews, or Zulus. . . . We describe the conflict between population genetics and individual-based genetics and the pitfalls of over-simplistic genetic interpretations, arguing that although the tests themselves are reliable, the interpretations are unreliable and strongly influenced by cultural and other social forces. > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870.2016.1105990?journalCode=rers20 > > Surprisingly current and apparently not flawed. Have you actually read this article, (for which they charge $40 unless you have a subscription), or are you just assuming it supports your position based on the Abstract? taf
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:09:32 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: > Your conclusions are flawed and the primary reason is that your references > are seven to nine years old, which is significant when dealing with new > technology. True. Likewise the original poster cited conclusions based on mtDNA to indict analysis that is based on nuclear genome analysis - apples and oranges. > Ancestry.com has built up an enormous database that gives a surprisingly > good ethnicity estimate that attempts to reach back about 300-500 years. Not when my uncle did it. > > I am English, German, French, Italian, Irish, Dutch, etc, etc. and my > ethnicity (country of origin, really), percentages for each are extremely > accurate on ancestry.com. My uncle's analysis was not good at all, with error bars larger than the average (e.g. 15% Scandinavian, +/- 25% - that is just statistical noise being portrayed as firm data). > They have built up a mathematically significant sized database, and > dedicating increasingly larger amounts of processing power (mainly an > iterative algorithm) to the problem and making very good progress. The problem is not with their statistical or processing power, it is with an oversimplification of what the statistics mean (an oversimplification necessary for mass marketing, but still fundamentally misleading). > I accept your conclusions were much more accurate in 2007 or 2009. They weren't accurate then either. The original poster has cherry-picked quotes out of context and misapplied them. taf
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:09:32 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:58:26 PM UTC-4, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > > Ignorance, False Promises and Pseudoscience: Is This > > Profit Promotion of DNA Fiction by Senior Genealogists? > > > > In 2013, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suggested "New Technology Makes Family History Easier, Even Fun", noting "An interesting development in family history research is the use of DNA testing to discover one’s ethnicity." > > https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-technology-makes-family-history-easier-even-fun?lang=eng > > > <snip> > > Your conclusions are flawed and the primary reason is that your references are seven to nine years old, which is significant when dealing with new technology. Ancestry.com has built up an enormous database that gives a surprisingly good ethnicity estimate that attempts to reach back about 300-500 years. > > I am English, German, French, Italian, Irish, Dutch, etc, etc. and my ethnicity (country of origin, really), percentages for each are extremely accurate on ancestry.com. The same is true for my English, Irish, Polish, French, German, (etc), wife. > > They have built up a mathematically significant sized database, and dedicating increasingly larger amounts of processing power (mainly an iterative algorithm) to the problem and making very good progress. > > I accept your conclusions were much more accurate in 2007 or 2009. > --Joe Cook --------------------------------------------- REPLY: Received: 12 Jan 2015 Accepted: 5 Oct 2015 Published online: 14 Dec 2015 Ethnic and Racial Studies Volume 39, Issue 2, 2016 Special Issue: The Impact of Diasporas: Markers of Identity In the blood: the myth and reality of genetic markers of identity ABSTRACT . . . statistical methods are nonetheless claimed to be able to predict successfully the population of origin of a DNA sample. Such methods are employed in commercial genetic ancestry tests, and particular genetic signatures, often in the male-specific Y-chromosome or maternally-inherited mitochondrial DNA, have become widely identified with particular ancestral or existing groups, such as Vikings, Jews, or Zulus. . . . We describe the conflict between population genetics and individual-based genetics and the pitfalls of over-simplistic genetic interpretations, arguing that although the tests themselves are reliable, the interpretations are unreliable and strongly influenced by cultural and other social forces. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870.2016.1105990?journalCode=rers20 Surprisingly current and apparently not flawed.
I have been looking at some of the early Anglo-Saxon genealogical traditions and came across some references from the 19th century to the Cat Stane. The Cat Stane is an inscribed memorial that dates from the late 5th or early 6th century, and is located on the grounds of the Edinburgh Airport. The text is fragmentary: IN OC T(damaged) MVLO IAC( )T VITTA F(damaged) VICT#(damaged) [# = a character read variously as A, R or I] The current preferred reconstruction of this is that it should be read as In oc t[v]mvlo iac[i]t Vitta f[ilia] Vict[ricus] In this tomb lies Vitta, daughter of Victricus At least one author, based on this inscription, has made a special point of the fact that the two names on the stone are both Roman names, yet the second name is only Roman because someone decided to fill in the blank that way, while the first name, Vitta, is only Roman (or female) if you want it to be - a couple of 19th century scholars read this as Vitta filius Victa, the Witta Wecting of Hengest's pedigree (according to Bede and ASC - the order is different in the Anglian Collection, apparently followed by Snorri, and differently different in AEthelweard's Chronicle). Is anyone aware of this artifact familiar with the basis for completing it as in the modern reconstruction (daughter of Victricus)? taf
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:58:26 PM UTC-4, Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr. wrote: > Ignorance, False Promises and Pseudoscience: Is This > Profit Promotion of DNA Fiction by Senior Genealogists? > > In 2013, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suggested "New Technology Makes Family History Easier, Even Fun", noting "An interesting development in family history research is the use of DNA testing to discover one’s ethnicity." > https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-technology-makes-family-history-easier-even-fun?lang=eng > <snip> Your conclusions are flawed and the primary reason is that your references are seven to nine years old, which is significant when dealing with new technology. Ancestry.com has built up an enormous database that gives a surprisingly good ethnicity estimate that attempts to reach back about 300-500 years. I am English, German, French, Italian, Irish, Dutch, etc, etc. and my ethnicity (country of origin, really), percentages for each are extremely accurate on ancestry.com. The same is true for my English, Irish, Polish, French, German, (etc), wife. They have built up a mathematically significant sized database, and dedicating increasingly larger amounts of processing power (mainly an iterative algorithm) to the problem and making very good progress. I accept your conclusions were much more accurate in 2007 or 2009. --Joe Cook
Ignorance, False Promises and Pseudoscience: Is This Profit Promotion of DNA Fiction by Senior Genealogists? In 2013, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suggested "New Technology Makes Family History Easier, Even Fun", noting "An interesting development in family history research is the use of DNA testing to discover one’s ethnicity." https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-technology-makes-family-history-easier-even-fun?lang=eng Is this a serious public relations mistake, for an organization, noted for being the source of all truth, to promote hope in fictional data sets? Today, this is now updated in FamilySearch, the genealogy arm of the LDS Church, in subset "Hiring a DNA Testing Company", listed under Hiring a Professional Researcher. https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Hiring_a_DNA_Testing_Company Evaluate one such company and its claims, that: "Once you've taken your test, we'll search our network of AncestryDNA members and identify your cousins—the people who share your DNA." And, AncestryDNA promotes itself as "The World's Largest Consumer DNA Database." Their site includes A Comprehensive Map of AncestryDNA Ethnicity Regions; currently listing 26 areas. www.ancestry.com/DNA Well, from a Biblical standpoint, this is indeed true. We are all related as descending posterity of the prophet Noah, whose cousin relatives and ancestry, consisting of all mankind living prior to the flood, were then DNA hourglass squeezed into the one small family unit that survived. [" . . . Even if we use rates appropriate for the present world (x = 1 and C = 1.5), over 3 billion people could easily have been on the earth at the time of Noah."]. Ignorance: Any laundry list of people used on the earth, contains names and surnames, that are all related to each other, as a "cousin-hood"; this is not established genealogical proof. http://www.academic-genealogy.com/ancientandmoderngenealogies.htm#012 http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html https://www.google.com/search?q=hourglass&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6upetr_rMAhVE72MKHb4TBC0QsAQIKA&biw=1600&bih=727 Furthermore, "Genealogical Discontinuities among Etruscan, Medieval, and Contemporary Tuscans", accepted June 10, 2009, concludes by stating what is not "a safe general assumption": "Only a handful of populations of preclassical Europe have been studied genetically, all of them only for mtDNA, and hence generalizations on their relationships with their current counterparts appear premature. Therefore, it is not clear yet whether these data may eventually force us to reconsider the results of studies inferring demographic history under the assumption that genetic diversity in current populations is a good proxy for the (unknown) diversity in past populations of the same region. At this stage, one can only emphasize that cases of both genetic continuity and discontinuity have been observed. Therefore, the notion that the modern inhabitants of a region are descended from its ancient residents does not seem a robust general assumption, but rather a hypothesis that whenever possible should be tested empirically using ancient DNA." http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/9/2157.full "This study shows that genealogical links can be detected between people who inhabited Tuscany at different time periods, but so far not between the Bronze Age and more recent inhabitants of the region." Additionally, "Analyses of mtDNA diversity in the British Isles (Töpf et al. 2007), and Iceland (Helgason et al. 2009), also showed sharp differences between historical and current populations. In addition, a large fraction (up to 80%, depending on the region considered) of the Dutch surnames were displaced from the areas in which their frequency was highest three centuries ago (Manni et al. 2005)." CONCLUSIONS: (1) DNA testing cannot be used currently to discover one’s ethnicity (2) Ethnicity Regions are only at present, pseudoscience conjecture. (3) Effective family history research requires primary document data. REFERENCES: DNA Testing: A Plus (+) or Minus (-) For Genealogy? Mathematics Indicates That It Just Does Not Add Up. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153907038371424&id=261975771423 "It is well known that horoscopes use vague statements which recipients think are more tailored than they really are (referred to as the ‘Forer effect’). Genetic ancestry tests do a similar thing, and many exaggerate far beyond the available evidence about human origins. You cannot look at DNA and read it like a book or a map of a journey. For the most part these tests cannot tell you the things they claim to – they are little more than genetic astrology." http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/119/Sense-About-Genetic-Ancestry-Testing.pdf
Thanks Peter. I guess I got caught up in trying to solve a nonexistent problem.
I spent some months on WikiTree and finally gave up on it. It's simply a mess. To achieve true quality control would probably require purging the entire database and starting over with tighter controls. I, for one, would hate to see THP caught up in that bedlam. Just my humble opinion.
On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:57:24 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri > --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis > vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for > this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia > Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) The text of this source reads: INNOCENTIUS EPISCOPUS etc. Dilecte filie Nobili mulieri ... Sorori Carissimi in Christo filii nostri ... Illustris Regis Scotie, salutem etc. Pium arbitramur et congruum, ut in hiis prompti simus ad gratiam, que profectum respiciunt animarum, presertim circa personas nobiles, que pura fide conspicue deo et ecclesie sunt devote. Hinc est, quod nos tue nobilitatis precibus annuentes, ut cum sex matronis honestis monasterium de Doberan Cisterciensis ordinis Zverinensis diocesis, cuius Nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus fundator existit, bis vel ter in anno causa devotionis intrare valeas, eiusdem ordinis statuto contrario non obstante, tibi auctoritate presentium conferimus facultatem. Datum Lugduni XIII. Kal. Iunii, Pontificatus nostri anno quinto. https://books.google.com/books?id=ADxQAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50 taf
On 29/05/2016 2:57 PM, J.L. Fernandez Blanco via wrote: > Dear Newsgroup. > > Has anybody had the chance to read MacEwen, A. B. W. ‘A Far-Fetched Alliance: the Marriage of Borwin of Rostock and Cristina of Scotland, Foundations, Vol. 7 (June 2015), pp. 3-24.? > > I found this in (I know, not the best place to look for anything) Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands Project. > > Apparently, according to that study, which I haven't seen (and won't be able to do it), William the Lion, King of Scots, would have been the father of Cristina, wife of Heinrich Borwin II, Prince of Mecklenburg and Lord of Rostock. > > Cawley mentions, inter alia, "Pope Innocent IV permitted “nobili mulieri --- Sorori...Regis Scotie” to enter Doberan monastery, founded by “nobilis vir B. de Rozstoc maritus tuus”, to pray, dated 20 May 1248" (Source for this: Theiner, A. (1864) Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum Historia Illustrantia (Rome), CXXXV, p. 50.) > I haven't seen the article by MacEwan either, but this question was discussed by Adolf Hofmeiseter in 1920, see pp 46-47 in https://archive.org/stream/forschungenzur33vereuoft#page/46/mode/2up. Hofmeister concluded that the lord of Rostock who was husband of Cristina was evidently living in May 1248, so that she was apparently an otherwise unknown second wife of Heinrich Borwin III whose first wife Sophia had died in 1241 (despite the chronological difficulty of such a late marriage for a daughter of William), and not of his father Henrich Borwin II. However, Hofmeister suggested that "Scotie" may not be the correct reading for the kingdom of Cristina's brother. Peter Stewart