Sorry, got my fingers shifted on the keyboard: > The line given is: . . . > Uitred > Akdredys > Elfleda=Siwardus > Walteof The second name is Aldredus. taf

On 6/3/2016 10:00 AM, Brad Verity via wrote: > This is another step forward in using DNA testing in order to verify or refute lines of royal descent. I'm a bit confused, though, as to the details. Is Archie Shaw Stewart a male-line yDNA descendant of King Robert III Stewart of Scotland? Are there any yDNA descendants of King Robert III outside of those descended from the illegitimate sons of Charles II and James II? Or, does the genetic marker apply to any descendant - thru male lines or female lines - of Robert III? > > Cheers, -------Brad > > **************************************************** > http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/genetic-marker-reveals-descendants-medieval-king That website gives the following link which further explains the situation: http://www.strathgenealogy.org.uk/projects/bannockburn-genetic-genealogy-project/ The data came from a Y chromosome test, and therefore only applies to the direct male line. Briefly, they have found a marker (called ZZ52) in a Big Y test which is possessed by a documented descendant of Robert III, but not by documented descendants of a brother of Robert III. The likely conclusion (which should be verified by testing more documented Stewart descendants) is that either Robert III or (more likely) one of his male-line descendants was the first of the line to have this mutation, and then passed it on to his direct male-line descendants. Testing of more documented male-line descendants is required to determine the generation at which the mutation occurred. Stewart Baldwin

I just came across an article that cites a 12th or 13th century continuation of John of Worcester's Chronicon ex Chronicis (CCCC 92 - this is sometimes referred to as the third continuation) that shows a descent from king AElla of Northumbria (d. 867), and on beyond Woden. The line given drops a century and a half, and the early part is flawed and made up, but the link to AElla is none the less curious. The line given is: Hyring Woden Wythgils Horse Uppa Eppa Ermering Bernac Ida Edelred Edelferd Oswy Egferd Alfrid Elle Edeldrida (daughter) Eadulfus Ossulf Aldredus Waldeophus Uitred Akdredys Elfleda=Siwardus Walteof This descent breaks down into four parts. From Hyring to Bernac is all made-up origin fantasy. From Ida to Alfrid the pedigree is presenting (with a couple of errors) the descent of the kings of Bernicia and Northumbria. From Elle to Eadulfus is the portion of the pedigree critical to the linkage, and from Ossulf to Walteof is fully documented from other sources. Part I This is not the royal origin legend of the Anglian Collection, although hints of commonality can be found. Hyring is called the first post-Briton king of Northumbria and I have been unable to identify who the author had in mind. As father of Woden, this is novel, since the consensus is that Woden was son of Frealaf. It is unclear if this represents an independent origin tradition or an invention of the author. The next three names reflect the Kent royal descent from Bede, who shows Woden > Wecta > Witta > Wihtgils > Hengest & Horsa, while this line jumps straight from Woden to Wihtgils. Uppa and Eppa both seem to reflect the Eoppa, who is father of Ida in the Bernician royal pedigree. (Alternatively, rather than being duplicated it is possible that Uppa represents Yffa of the Deira pedigree.) Interposed between Eppa and Ida in this pedigree is Bernac, clearly the same eponymous ancestor who as Beornic, Beornuc or Benoc, who appears farther up the Bernician pedigree. Part II The next five names represent the authentic royal pedigree of Bernicia and Northumbria, with Edelred (sic) representing Ida's son AEthelric; Oswy is Oswiu. Alfrid is Aldfrith, but he was illegitimate brother of Ecgfrith, his predecessor, rather than son. Aldfrith died in 704/5, while the next generation in the pedigree AElla, died 867, so there is a clear break here, and AElla is of unknown origin, although his name hearkens back to AElla of Deira. Part III Here is the crux. Eadwulf, claimed grandson of AElla, appears in the ASC and Irish annals along with his own sons Ealdred and 'Adulf' (? AEthelwulf, Ealdwulf). He appears as 'ri' or 'rex' although he is usually not names as king by modern scholars. These scant mentions provide no indication he was connected to prior kings. Eadwulf died in 913, 46 years after AElla, which is reasonable chronology were he two generations later. Part IV As far as I can tell, Oswulf is not documented as son of Eadwulf, and there are pedigrees floating around that instead make him grandson, son of Ealdred Eadwulfing, although it is unclear why this should be more likely than that he was son of Adulf. From Oswulf there seems to be general agreement of the descent the rest of the way down. Is anyone aware of a study that has addressed this descent from a genealogical perspective? [Neil McGuigan, "AElla and the Descendants of Ivar: Politics and Legend in the Viking Age", Northern History, 52:20-34.] taf

Okay, looks like the intervening generations should be: Robert III Sir John Stewart of Auchingowan, Blackhall, and Ardgowan = ______ John Stewart = Elizabeth Lyle James Stewart = Margaret Lyle John Stewart = Marion Mure James Stewart = Janet Kennedy James Stewart = Janet Maxwell James Stewart = Margaret Wallace John Stewart = Margaret Stewart Sir Archibald Stewart = Margaret Blair John Stewart = Mary Stirling Sir Archibald Stewart, 1st Bart. = Anne Crawfurd John Stewart = Rebecca Wallace Sir Michael Stewart, 3rd Bart. = Helen Houston Houston Stewart-Nicholson = Margaret Porterfield Sir Michael Shaw-Stewart, 5th Bart. = Catherine Maxwell John Shaw Shaw-Stewart = Jane Stuart Heron-Maxwell Maj.-Gen. John Heron-Maxwell Shaw-Stewart = Mary Catherine Bedingfield Collyer Col. Basil Shaw-Stewart = Vera Caldwell Michael Shaw-Stewart = Grizel Margaret Lighton Stewart Archibald Shaw-Stewart

On 3/06/2016 6:16 PM, Matt Tompkins via wrote: >> Thank you, Rosie. Derek Barrie, who wrote a 1991 thesis on the baronage under Edward I, also dated the letter to 1302, though for reasons more suggestive than conclusive: Derek A. Barrie, The 'Maiores Barones' in the second half of the reign of Edward I, (1290-1307), PhD thesis, university of St Andrews (1991), p. 143. >> >> https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4594 >> ------------------------- From: Peter Stewart via [gen-medieval@rootsweb.com] Sent: 03 June 2016 11:19 > I think the case for 1302 over the alternatives set out before by Matt is a bit stronger than Derek Barrie suggested - he wrote: 'The reference to his [John de St John's] illness, given his death later that year, points to 1302 as the correct date.' > > St. John was appointed warden of Galloway on 5 January 1300, not long after he had been released from imprisonment in France apparently after 10 September 1299. As posted before, he died at Lochmaber castle on Thursday 6 September 1302, just eight days after the meeting he was too ill to attend, which would have taken place on Wednesday 29 August in that year. > > We don't have to rely only on Annales Londonienses for the timing of St John's death - news of this had reached the king by 14 September, *Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland* vol. v, p. 173 no. 292: '[1302] ... [Draft of 9 privy seal writs of Edward I.] (iii) 14 Sept. To Walter de Glouc', escheator south of Trent. Sir John de St John, the elder, is dead'. The writ for St John's IPM was issued on 12 October, *Calendar of IPMs* vol. iv p. 61 no. 96. > > Peter Stewart > ------------------------------- Surely we only know that the meeting he was too ill to attend was a few days before his death if we assume that the letter referring to the meeting was written in 1302. Isn't that circular logic? The illness referred to in the letter might well have been the one which finished him off in 1302, but equally people can fall ill at several points in their lives, and not die until years later. Matt Tompkins

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 1:28:53 PM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote: > Archie Shaw Stewart mentioned his great-uncle Patrick Shaw Stewart, who was apparently the genealogist who traced the Robert III connection. > > Would this be the "Patrick Houston Shaw-Stewart," born 1888, found on page 628 of _Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal_ "Anne of Exeter" volume? > > https://books.google.com/books?id=cVJmAAAAMAAJ&q=%22patrick+houston+shaw-stewart%22&dq=%22patrick+houston+shaw-stewart%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixmdqg1ozNAhUCQCYKHSQbBdYQ6AEILTAD > > If so, his parents were Major-General John Heron-Maxwell Shaw-Stewart and Mary Catherine Bedingfield Collyer. > > I suppose it would be rather embarrassing if the researches of Patrick Shaw Stewart turned out to be wrong. The Shaw-Stewart family is covered in BP, through the final printed edition of 2003. The account there matches what John Brandon has located in Ruvigny's Anne of Exeter volume and also includes Archibald Shaw-Stewart (b. 21 Nov 1953) - presumably the "Archie" mentioned in this thread. His great-uncle is the poet Patrick Houston Shaw-Stewart, for whom see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Shaw-Stewart

Archie Shaw Stewart mentioned his great-uncle Patrick Shaw Stewart, who was apparently the genealogist who traced the Robert III connection. Would this be the "Patrick Houston Shaw-Stewart," born 1888, found on page 628 of _Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal_ "Anne of Exeter" volume? https://books.google.com/books?id=cVJmAAAAMAAJ&q=%22patrick+houston+shaw-stewart%22&dq=%22patrick+houston+shaw-stewart%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixmdqg1ozNAhUCQCYKHSQbBdYQ6AEILTAD If so, his parents were Major-General John Heron-Maxwell Shaw-Stewart and Mary Catherine Bedingfield Collyer. I suppose it would be rather embarrassing if the researches of Patrick Shaw Stewart turned out to be wrong.

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 4:32:25 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart via wrote: > Unless he subscribes to the theory that you ARE what you eat. And of > course there might be some other foreign DNA in the mix, from the > Chianti bottle ... Perhaps by drinking mezcal you could get the test to show you are descended from Hardecnudth Vurm. taf

In 1997, Robert Barnes and Peter Wilson Coldham collaborated to publish a royal descent for Catherine Tyrwhitt (~1700~1746) of Maryland.(1)(2) I can now fill in missing generation 17 using a PCC will. She was the bastard of a London Gentleman. After her father's death, she was transported to Maryland for a property crime. I submit this descent to the group for your evaluation. It is unknown if Catherine has living descendants. Her only child, George [Gilbert] Yates, had eight white persons in his household in Harford County, Maryland in 1783.(3) His descendants are yet to be identified. I've included off-topic Maryland notes for those interested in trying to identify them. The American family's origin is traceable in England thanks to records created in an attempt to claim an extinct baronetcy (see below). 1 EDWARD I, King of England, m. (1) ELEANOR OF CASTILE 2 JOAN OF ENGLAND, m. GILBERT DE CLARE, 3rd Earl of Gloucester, Earl of Hertford, b. 1243, d. Monmouth Castle, 1295. 3 MARGARET DE CLARE, b. 1293, d. 1342; m. 1317, HUGH DE AUDLEY, Earl of Gloucester, b. c1289, d. 1347. 4 MARGARET DE AUDLEY, b. c1325, d. 1348; m. RALPH DE STAFFORD, b. 1301, d. 1372. 5 BEATRICE DE STAFFORD; m. THOMAS DE ROS, b. 1336/7, d. 1384. 6 MARGARET DE ROS; m. REYNOLD DE GREY, b. c1362, d. 1440. 7 MARGARET GREY, d. aft. 1426; m. WILLIAM BONVILLE, b. 1393; d. 1460/1. 8 ELIZABETH BONVILLE; d. 1490/1; m. WILLIAM TALBOYS, b. ca 1415; d. 1464. 9 SIR ROBERT TALBOYS, Knight, Lord Kyme, MP, d. 1494/5; m. ELIZABETH HERON. 10 MAUDE TALBOYS; m. SIR ROBERT TYRWHIT, Knight, High Sheriff of Lincolnshire, b. 1482; d. 1548. 11 PHILIP TYRWHIT, 3rd son, M.P. for Lincolnshire, d. 29 Nov. 1558; m. MARGARET BARNABY, d. 1592, requested burial at St. Peter’s Church, Barton. 12 EDWARD TYRWHIT, High Sheriff of Lincoln, bur. Stainfield 21 Dec 1590; m. ANNE DALISON. 13 SIR PHILIP TYRWHIT, Baronet, High Sheriff of Lincoln, d. 5 Feb 1624/5; m. MARTHA THOROLD. 14 SIR EDWARD TYRWHITT, Baronet, chr. Lincoln St. Margaret, 23 Mar 1576/7; bur. Stainfield, Lincolnshire, 3 Mar 1627/8, IPM 8 Sep 1628; m. FAITH ST. PAUL, bur. Lincoln Cathedral. 15 SIR PHILIP TYRWHIT, Baronet, chr. 23 Sep. 1598, d. ca 1667; m. 2 Aug 1627 (date of licence) ANNE SAUNDERSON, b. cal 1599, d. Manton, Lincolnshire, 1647. 16 SIR PHILLIP TYRWHIT, Baronet, chr. Aylesby, Lincolnshire, 3 Dec. 1633, bur. Stainfield, Lincolnshire, 15 July 1688; m. PENELOPE DE LA FONTAINE, d. 1708/9, bur. Witham, Essex. 17 NICHOLAS TYRWHIT, Gentleman, chr. Stainfield, Lincolnshire, 2 May 1668, d. 1709/10. Admitted Gray's Inn 23 June 1693.(4) He had a daughter by his Mistress ---- GILBERT, who is said to have had brothers Joshua and George Gilbert in London (one a barber, the other a merchant or shopkeeper).(2) Nicholas, his brother Sir John, and their sister Penelope received bequests in the will of their uncle John de la Fontaine (will proved 1708).(15) 18 CATHERINE TYRWHIT, b. London, say 1700, d. Baltimore, MD, say 1746. She was educated in Lincolnshire. Cath[er]ine “Terrell” late of Gravesend, Kent, was indicted at the Kent Assizes for stealing gold rings, silver spoons, a silver chain, and a silver box valued 38 shillings (TNA ASSI 94/459). As Catherine “Terrett" (or “Terwight”), she was found guilty and sentenced to seven years transportation in June 1726. She was placed onboard the Loyal Margaret, Master John Wheaton. Catherine “Terrett” survived the Atlantic passage and arrived safely in Maryland, according to a landing certificate, dated December 1726, which officials sent from Annapolis back to London. Catherine served her labor term under Rowland Sheppard. On 14 or 15 September 1735, "Cathrene Turret" married "Joseph Yeats" at St. John's or St. George's in Baltimore. He died 9 November 1740.(1)(2)(5)(6) 19 GEORGE GILBERT YATES, b. on John Atkinson's Plantation, Bush River Neck, Baltimore County (now Harford County), Maryland, 21 April 1738, chr. Church of England in Baltimore,(2) d. prob. in Harford County, between 1783 and 1800 (see below). He married in Baltimore County, 23 June 1766, ANN DEAVER, the daughter of Antill and Sarah (Webster) Deaver of Baltimore County. Ann, chr. Church of England, Baltimore, 2 June 1735. In 1761, “George Gilbert Yeates” and Ann Deaver witnessed the will of Michael Webster in Baltimore County.(7) In 1763, George Yates made a payment to the estate of Peter Whitacre.(8) John Deaver and Ann Yeates were designated next of kin in the inventory of Antill Deaver of Baltimore County.(9) In 1766, Sarah Deaver bequeathed …(10) In September 1766, Ann Yates made bond as executrix of Sarah Deaver.(11) In 1772, George Gilbert Yeats, aged 34, of Baltimore County, “now intending to go to Great Britain, gave power of attorney to Ishmael Morris ... Morris promised to use his utmost endeavours to procure an estate now depending in England said to belong to the said George Gilbert Yeates.” Witnesses gave depositions that Yeates’s mother was the niece of the late Sir John Tyrwhitt, Baronet, of Lincolnshire, England, a then extinct baronetcy.(2) In 1775, George Yeates appears on a tax list for Spesutia Upper Hundred, Harford County.(12) In 1776, the name “George Gilbert Yates” appears on the list of the association of freemen for Upper Hundred.(13) [His family does not appear on the 1776 Census of Maryland. Not on 1778 Oath of Fidelity in Harford County.] In 1783, George Yates, with 8 whites in his household, no land, two horses and two cattle, paid a tax of 4s 9d for £17 worth of property in Gunpowder Upper and Lower Hundreds, Harford County.(3) In 1790, Ann Yeates, Margret Yates, and Edeth (or Eady) Everett witnessed the nuncupative will of Elizabeth Waltham. [Not on 1790 Census.] On the 1800 Census, First District, Harford County, one Ann Yates appears as head of household 11000-00111. PROOF ARGUMENT FOR IMMIGRANT ORIGIN Baltimore County Chattel Records 3:12-15, Maryland Historical Society (discovered by Robert Barnes): In 1744, Marshall Lemmon desposed "that he knew the family of Turwhitts als. Turretts in Lincolnshire. He knew that John Turwhitt had a younger brother [name not given] and his only child was Catherine Turwhitt, since Yate. The deponent was at school with her in Lincolnshire and has seen and been acquainted with her since her coming to America. The deponent went on to say that the younger brother married against his father's consent a young woman named Gilbert, sister of Joshua and George Gilbert of London. One brother was a barder, the other a merchant or shopkeeper, and the deponent was present when the said Catherine was owned by Sir John Tyrwhitt to be the only child of his brother. Catherine was frequently taken by her father in a coach to visit her uncle." In 1772, George Gilbert Yeats, aged 34, of Baltimore County, “now intending to go to Great Britain, gave power of attorney to Ishmael Morris ... Morris promised to use his utmost endeavours to procure an estate now depending in England said to belong to the said George Gilbert Yeates.” Witnesses gave depositions that Yeates’s mother was the niece of the late Sir John Tyrwhitt, Baronet, of Lincolnshire, England, a then extinct baronetcy.(2) The recently discovered will of Sir John Tyrwhit's younger brother, in which he owns up to being Catherina Gilbert's father: In the Name of God Amen: I Nicholas Tyrwhitt of Gray's Inn in the County of Middx gent being in good health of Body and of sound minde and memory doe make this my last Will and Testament in manner following (that is to say) I give my Soul into the hands of Allmighty God who gave it me and my Body I committ to the Earth to be decently buryed (but not chargeably) in the parish where I shall expire And as to the temporall Estate it hath pleased God to bless me withall I dispose of as followeth Imprimis I give and bequeath unto my brother Sr John Tyrwhitts Four youngest daughters and unto the survivors of them the sum[m]e of Four Hundred pounds to be equally divided amongst them when the youngest shall attaine to the age of Fifteen to be paid them by my Executor hereafter named Item I give and bequeath unto my Cosin Frances Clerke the sum[m]e of One Hundred pounds to be paid her within Twelve Moneths after my decease by my Executor hereafter named Item I give and bequeath unto my Godson Nicholas Stokes the son of Simon Stokes of Melton Mowbray in the County of Leicester One Hundred pounds to be paid him by my Executor hereafter named at or when he shall attaine to the age of Fiveteen with the Interest of the same from the time of my decease ITEM I GIVE AND BEQUEATH UNTO MY NATURALL DAUGHTER CATHERINA GILBERT THE SUM[M]E OF ONE HUNDRED POUNDS to be paid her by my Executor hereafter named and to be putt out for her use within six Moneths after my decease as my said Executor shall think most proper But in case my personall Estate will not hold out or amount to the payment of these my Legacies aforesaid Then I will that they shall be paid out of the Money that will become due to me out of the Estate of Thedlethorp in the County of Lincoln that my Uncle De La Fontaine gave by his last Will to my Brother Sr John Tyrwhitt and me to be sold for the payment of his Legacies Item I give and devise all my Lands and Tenements which my Uncle de La Fontaine has given me after the decease of my Aunt de La Fontaine lyeing and being in the parish of Martin near Horncastle in the County of Lincoln unto any Second Son and to the Heirs of his Body lawfully to be begotten that my said Brother Sr John Tyrwhitt may hereafter have by this present or any other Lady And I doe alsoe give and devise unto the said Second Son and to the Heirs of his Body lawfully to be begotten All the Tyth of those Lands which now doth belong unto my Cosin Andrew Noel and me (lyeing and being in the parish of Kirby Bellars in the County of Leicester) Since the decease of my Uncle De La Fontaine who has given me the Tyth of all those aforesaid Lands by a Deed bearing Date (if I mistake not) June the Eighteen One Thousand Six Hundred and Seventy Two Sealed and delivered in the presents of Andrew Noel Mathew Johnson and William Richards But in case my Brother Sr John Tyrwhitt should at his decease leave but one Son Then I give and devise all my aforesaid Lands and Tenements lyeing and being in the parish of Martin near Horncastle in the County of Lincoln with all the Tyth of those Lands lyeing and being in the parish of Kirby Bellars in the County of Leicester aforesaid which doth now belong unto my said Cosin Noel and me unto my God Daughter and Neece Juliana Tyrwhitt for her naturall Life and noe longer And then I give and devise all my Lands and Tenements lying and being in the parish of Martin near Horncastle in the County of Lincoln aforesaid with all the Tythes of those Lands lyeing and being in the parish of Kirby Bellars in the County of Leicester aforesaid unto the Second Son and unto the Heirs of hhis Body lawfully to be begotten of my Nephew John De La Fontaine Tyrwhitt All the Rest of my Goods Credits Chattells and personall Estate whatsoever not herein and hereby before by me bequeathed I give and bequeath unto my said Brother Sr John Tyrwhitt whom I make Sole Executor of this my last Will and Testament and I doe hereby revoke all former Wills by me heretofore made In Witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seale December the Fourth One Thousand Seven Hundred and Eight - N: Tyrwhitt - Signed Sealed declared and published this my last Will and Testament contained in one sheet writt with my owne hand to which I have set my hand and seale in the presents of the under written witness Benj: Hill Tho: Robson Henry Blankly of Melton in Leicestershire. Proved 4 Feb 1709[/10] by oath of Sir John Tyrwhitt Baronet, his brother(14) SOURCES: 1. Robert Barnes, "The Tyrwhitt Family," The Notebook of the Baltimore County Genealogical Society, Vol. 13, No. 2 (June 1997):11-14, http://baltimoregenealogysociety.org/notebook_archive/1997.pdf. 2. Peter Wilson Coldham, "Case Studies: Catherine Tyrwhitt," The King's Passengers to Maryland and Virginia (Baltimore, Md.: Genealogical Pub. Co., 1997), 313-315. 3. Maryland State Archives, Maryland Indexes (Assessment of 1783, Index), 1783, Harford County, MSA S 1437, http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/stagser/s1400/s1437/html/1437ha.html; Bettie Stirling Carothers, 1783 Tax List of Maryland (Lutherville, Md.: privately published, 1977), 114, https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE980916. 4. Joseph Foster, The Register of Admissions to Gray's Inn, 1521-1889 (London, 1889), 345. 5. Robert Barnes, Baltimore County Families, 1659-1759 (Baltimore, Md.: Genealogical Pub. Co., 1989), 711. 6. Peter Wilson Coldham, British Emigrants in Bondage, 1614-1788 (Baltimore, Md.: Genealogical Pub. Co., 2005), 31, 849, 1146. 7. Will of Michael Webster, of Baltimore County, Maryland, dated 10 May 1761, proved 30 April 1764, Maryland Calendar of Wills 32:96. 8. Abstracts of the Administration Accounts of the Prerogative Court of Maryland Libers 46-51 1760-1764, 50:177. 9. Abstracts of the Inventories of the Prerogative Court of Maryland 1763-1766, p. 40. Vol. 84:214. 10. Will of Sarah Deaver, of Baltimore County, Maryland, dated 6 May 1766, proved 23 June 1766, Maryland Calendar of Wills 34:179. 11. Abstracts of the Testamentary Proceedings of the Prerogative Court of Maryland 1765-1767. Court Session 1766, 41:392. 12. Early Harford Countians, Supplement, p. 619. 13. “Men of ‘76” Copied by George W. Archver, M.D. >From The Bel Air Times, Harford Co., MD January 25 – May 31, 1895. Submitted by Ella Rowe and Joseph Carroll Hopkins, Maryland Genealogical Society Bulletin, Vol. 25 (1984):325; Revolutionary Patriots of Harford County, Maryland 1775-1783. 14. Will of Nicholas Tyrwhitt, of Gray's Inn, Middlesex, dated 4 December 1708, proved 4 February 1709[/10], Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1710, f. 324r (42 Smith), Ancestry, http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_310731-00247/848878; emphasis added. 15. Will of John de la Fontain(e), of Kirby Bellers, Leicestershire, Esquire, dated 17 Jan 1706/7, codicil 20 Aug 1707, proved 10 May 1708, Prerogative Court of Catnerbury, 114 Barrett, Ancestry: http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_310723-00218/951479. N.B. Joseph Yates has no known relationship to Maryland immigrant George Yate, an accepted Gateway in Roberts' RD600 and Richardson's Royal Ancestry. APPENDIX: WILLS OF CATHERINE'S PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS: In the Name of God Amen I Sir Phillipp Tirwhitt of Stanefeild in the County of Lincolne Barronett doe make this my last Will and Testament in manner following I doe give and bequeath to my deare Wife and her Brother John de la Fontaigne Esqr and Matthew Johnson of the Middle Temple London Esqr and their Heires All my Lands Tenements and hereditaments whatsoever lying and being in the Towns Parishes feilds prcincts or territories of Swallow Caborne and Staneton in the hole or any of them in the County of Lincolne And all those Lands tenemts and Hereditamts called Dame Grace Park in the parish of Bardney in the said County of Lincolne And all my Lands tenemts and Hereditamts lying and being within the City of Lincolne and the Liberties and precincts thereof with their & every of their appurten[an]ces upon trust to sell the premisses and pay the Debts secured thereby And the over plus of the moneys raised by such sale I will to be disposed for the benefitt of my two youngest Sonnes in such manner and proporc[i]ons as my said deare wife shall think fitt or direct I doe give & bequeath to my said deare Wife my House in the Parish of St Giles in the Feilds in the County of Middlesex with the appurten[an]ces for soe many yeares of the Terme which I have therein as she shall live and from and after her decease I give the same and the Lease thereof for the benefitt of my said two yongest sonnes in such manner and proporc[i]on as my said deare Wife shall lymitt or appoint And I doe make and ordeyne my said deare wife Sole Executrix of this my last will and Testament and doe give unto her all the residue of my goods chattells and personall Estate whatsoever In witness whereof I have hereunto sett my hand and Seale this tenth day of March in the year of our Lord Christ One thousand six hundred eighty and seaven P Tyrwhitt Signed sealed and published by the above named Sir Phillipp Tyrwhitt the day and yeare above written and attested in his presence by us Isabella Croke Katherine Goddard Michaell Duffeild Proved last day July 1688 by oath of Penelope Tyrwhitt, Relict of the deceased (Source: Will of Sir Phillipp Tirwhitt or Tyrwhitt of Stanefeild, Lincolne, Barronett, dated 10 Mar 1687[/8], proved 31 Jul 1688 (Prerogative Court of Canterbury 100 Exton [FHL #92,358]), Ancestry: http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_310597-00143/771589.) In the Name of God Amen I Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt Widow and Relict of Sr Philip Tyrwhitt late of Stainfield in the County of Lincoln Baronet doe hereby make my last Will and Testament Revokeing and annulling all former Wills by me made As to my Worldly Estate I doe hereby dispose of the same as followes To my deare Son Sr John Tyrwhitt and to his Lady I Give and bequeath to each of them gold Rings and noe other Legacie having by a Deed signed by me some time in May last or there about given to my said deare son severall parcells of Land that came to me by the death of my dear Sister Susanna Hord One Annuity of Fifty pound per Annum or Five Hundred pound in money Item to all my deare Sisters and to Sr Thomas Meres and to Sr John Meres I Give a Gold Ring of Twenty shillings value Item to Mrs Barkas and her Husband to each of them a Gold Ring To my Cozen Hansby a Gold Ring Item my desire is to be buryed at Wittham privately And for that purpose my Will is that there shall be expended only Five pound for my Funerall expences I doe give to Mrs Berrington a Gold Ring Item I give five pound to the servant that shall live with me at my decease Item to Mr John Walpoole I doe give a Gold Ring of Ten shillings value to Mr Warly and his Wife a Gold Ring each To Mr John Southcut a Gold Ring Item I doe give my Gold Watch to my dear Grandchild Penelope Tyrwhitt To my deare Grandchild Ann Tyrwhitt I Give my silver Cup and Cover Item I doe give and bequeath to my deare Goddaughter Tyrwhitt one of the Children of my dear Son Sr John Tyrwhitt by his second Wife one hundred pound Item I doe give and bequeath unto the Parishes of Witham Aylsby and Kerby the sum[m]e of Five pound per Ann[um] forever to be secured by my Executors by putting out one hundred pound to interest for each of the said Parishes or by giving such other good Security as may ensure the aforesaid yearly sum[m]e to each of the said Parishes forever And further will is That the aforesaid sum[m]es of Five pounds per Annum to the severall and respective Parishes of Witham Aylsby and Kerby shall be applyed at the discretion of my Executors for the putting out Children apprentices from time to time of such poor persons as receive Almes from the severall and respective Parishes before menc[i]oned And Whereas there is a fifth part of certaine Lands called Azerby descended to me as Heire at Law to my deare Brother John de la Fontain conjoyntly with my other Sisters My will and mind is and I doe give and bequeath my Son in Law Sr Edward Southcott and to his Heires all the profitts and inheritance thereof whether in Land or money of my said fifth part of Azerby aforesaid for and considerac[i]on of the three hundred pound menc[i]oned to be given by me for purchasing a yearly Rent charge of Five pound per Ann[um] for the poor of the severall Parishes of Witham Aylsby and Kerby forever Item I doe give One Hundred Pound to be put out to interest for redeeming Christian Captives from Barbarous Countryes and to be applyed at the discretion of my Executors Item I Give and bequeath the sum[m]e of Five pounds to each of my Executors herein after named And Lastly I doe hereby give and bequeath unto my Son in Law Sr Edward Southcott and to his Heires by my deare Daughter Juliana Southcott all the arreares of my Rent and Legacies of such persons herein named as shall happen to dye before the said Legacies shall become due And to my deare Son in Law Sr Edward Southcott I Give and bequeath All the Rest of my Goods and Chattells Rights and Creditts of what kind or nature soever And I doe hereby nominate and appoint my said deare Son in Law Sr Edward Southcott Knt and William Longvill Esqr of the Temple London to be Executors of this my last Will and Testament And here unto have sett my hand and seal This fourth day of October 1708 P: Tyrwhitt./ Signed sealed and published and declared by me being upon two sheets of paper this to be my last Will and Testament in presence of F: Warly Franc: Millington Richard Tounlay I Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt Testatrix of the Will annexed doe this Nine and Twentyeth day of November in the yeare of our Lord 1708 doe make this my Codicill and annex the same as part of my said Will Whereas I have given and bequeathed to the Parishes of Witham Aylsby and Kerby the sum[m]e of Five pounds per Annum forever to each of them for the putting out Children Apprentices Now my mind and will is that my said Gift bequest and legacie of Five pounds per Annum forever as to the Parish of Aylsby only shall be void and of none effect But as to the Parishes of Witham in the County of Essex and Kerby in the County of Leicester it shall stand and remain in full force and vertue And whereas I have given in my Will my share or fifth part of Azerby to my deare Son in Law S[i]r Edward Southcut towards discharging the Legacie of Three Hundred per Ann[um] forever left by me to the severall Parishes of Witham Aylsby and kerby Now my mind and will is that the said Gift bequeathed and legacie of my fifth part of Azerby to my deare Son in Law S[i]r Edward Southcut shall be void and of none effect for I shall otherwise provide for that Charitye and others. 19 Mar 1708[/9]. On which day time and place personally appeared George Barkas of the parish of St Giles in the Feilds in the County of Middlesex Gent. aged Fifty Nine yeares and mary Barkas his Wife aged Fifty Nine yeares and by vertue of their Corporall oathes severally taken on the Holy Evangelists to sweare and depose the truth did sweare and depose That they these Deponents knew and weare very well acquainted with Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt widow and Relict of Sir Philip Tyrwhitt late of Stanifield in the County of Lincolne Baronet deceased who lately dyed at Witham in the County of Essex and by meanes thereof and more particulerly for that he the said George Barkas managed the Estate of the said Dame Penelope and received the Rents Issues and profitts thereof for the said Dame Penelope for about fourteen yeares together They these Deponents have often seen her write and received severall letters from her and thereby became very well acquainted with her manner and character of handwriting And they these Deponents having now seen and perused a Codicill annexed to the last Will and Testament of the said Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt begining thus, I Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt Testatrix of the Will &cs. and others) and alsoe hereunto annexed doe sweare and depose that they verily beleive that the said Codicill and the whole series thereof to be totally wrote by and with the proper handwriting of the said Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt Geo Barkas Mary Barkas 19 March 1708[/9] sworn George Barkas and Mary Barkas Proved 18 March 1608 by oath of Sir Edward Southcott, Knight, one of the executors (Source:Will of Dame Penelope Tyrwhitt, Widow of Sir Philip Tyrwhitt late of Stainfield, Lincoln, Baronet, dated 4 Oct 1708, codicil 29/20 Nov 1708, proved 19 Mar 1708[/9] (Prerogative Court of Canterbury 90-132 Lane. Ancestry: http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_310728-00015/776548).)

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 10:14:54 AM UTC-7, Andrew Lancaster via wrote: > taf wrote: > > Well if the claim is to be taken seriously it could mean that they could > actually triangulate and test several lines descended from siblings in > several generations. If several sons of Robert have male lines still > existing, it would show that Robert almost certainly did. If Robert also > had siblings himself with surviving male lines, and these could be shown > NOT to have it... that would be pretty convincing. This press release reported the latter, but make it clear they did not do the former - Arthur Steward has a mutation not found in the descendants of Robert's brothers, but there are no other samples from the branch between Robert and Arthur - this may be a Arthur Stewart descent marker, rather than being a Robert III descent marker. > And of course this should involve a good SNP marker that does not jump > back and forth. Given how nonspecific the language is in the press release, it could be a STR 'mutation' and not an SNP, but as you say, reversion is always an issue with either. taf

I found a discussion sometime ago about de Plaiz by Chris Phillips. I am specifically interested in their lands in Sussex held of the de Warrennes. Richard de Plaiz, son of Hugh and heir of the Montfichets, died 53 Henry III (1269). His widow Isabel was alive in 1284. He held Iford and the advowson of Worth (Orde) Sussex. Osbert de Cailly who married Emma Tatteshale sold rent in Wivelsfield (Wyvelesfelde), Worth, Iford, Mitching, Ovingdean and Wychcenden, Sussex, for £90 with the service of John de la Byse in those places, namely 1 knight’s fee to Walter de Bersted who evidently defaulted. By some means, John de la Bise acquires Iford and Worth. Does anyone know who Isabel was? Thanks in advance, Pat

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 9:36:20 AM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote: > However, the briefing made it clear that 'There are credible ways to > use the genetic data from mtDNA or Y chromosomes in individual ancestry > testing, such as to supplement independent, historical studies of > genealogy.' This combination of genealogical research with DNA testing > is known as genetic genealogy, and is a more specific and rigorous > application than the generalised 'deep' ancestry tests critiqued in > Sense About Genetic Ancestry Testing." This corresponds with my own feelings on the matter. There are problems with the ethnology determinations, but these do not affect the application of DNA analyses to specific genealogical questions. Indeed, I have spent the past month trying to track down the last known male-line descendants (left orphaned in the 1950s when their father fell into a caustic vat used to clean airline engine parts) of an 18th century ancestor who appears in court documents as the child of an unmarried woman, but with a different surname from hers. This is exactly the type of question DNA can nail down - does his Y-chromosome match that of the local family with whom he shared the surname? Can it prove a relationship? No, but it can fail to exclude one. > (Thanks to Debbie for pointing this out to me.) And thanks to you for bringing it to us. taf

> "It is well known that horoscopes use vague statements which recipients think are more tailored than they really are (referred to as the ‘Forer effect’). Genetic ancestry tests do a similar thing, and many exaggerate far beyond the available evidence about human origins. You cannot look at DNA and read it like a book or a map of a journey. For the most part these tests cannot tell you the things they claim to – they are little more than genetic astrology." > http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/119/Sense-About-Genetic-Ancestry-Testing.pdf Debbie Cruwys Kennett published a response to the 2013 Sense about Science, which might be helpful: http://www.senseaboutscience.org/blog.php/41/sense-about-genealogical-dna-testing Opening paragraph: "The announcement of the publication of Sense About Science’s new briefing on Sense About Genetic Ancestry Testing attracted substantial media coverage. However, some of the articles did not give the wider context which may have given the false impression that all DNA ancestry tests are 'meaningless'. This left some readers to wonder about the scientific credibility of the DNA testing used in the investigation of the presumed remains of Richard III or the tests taken by genealogists as part of their family history research. However, the briefing made it clear that 'There are credible ways to use the genetic data from mtDNA or Y chromosomes in individual ancestry testing, such as to supplement independent, historical studies of genealogy.' This combination of genealogical research with DNA testing is known as genetic genealogy, and is a more specific and rigorous application than the generalised 'deep' ancestry tests critiqued in Sense About Genetic Ancestry Testing." (Thanks to Debbie for pointing this out to me.)

On 3/06/2016 7:13 AM, taf via wrote: > > When doing genealogical testing, you are usually doing a cheek swab that will contain thousands of cells (one study showed that the first wash of the average swab yielded 150,000 cells, and a second wash released another 150,000). If a dozen cells from someone else have been transferred through a kiss, representing nothing more than insignificant noise amidst the 99.99% of cells from the tested individual. Indeed, the level of contamination would have to approach 20% or so before you would even notice it. At 50%, you would get an uninterpretable result rather than a wrong result. To get the wrong result, as Mr. Tinney is hinting can happen, there would have to be many more contaminating cells than cells from the test subject. > > This might be a concern for Hannibal Lecter, but he probably knows better than to swipe his cheek to determine his ethnic origin while he is chewing on a raw human kidney. > > Unless he subscribes to the theory that you ARE what you eat. And of course there might be some other foreign DNA in the mix, from the Chianti bottle ... But then on the basis of onomastics, surely Hannibal would be looking for a DFA - and as we all know what Carthaginians ate for supper (each other's children, of course), his DNA would be heterogeneous to say the least. Peter Stewart

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 8:00:25 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote: > This is another step forward in using DNA testing in order to verify or > refute lines of royal descent. I'm a bit confused, though, as to the > details. Is Archie Shaw Stewart a male-line yDNA descendant of King Robert > III Stewart of Scotland? Archie claims to be. > Are there any yDNA descendants of King Robert III outside of those > descended from the illegitimate sons of Charles II and James II? The Charles and James were just the last of a long line of Stewart kings populating the countryside with bastards. There are also claimed descents from younger legitimate sons of some of the kings, but I have never looked at these families to know if these lines are authentic or not. > Or, does the genetic marker apply to any descendant - thru male lines or > female lines - of Robert III? The marker is specific to male lines. However, maybe not all male lines. All we know (or all the story tells us, assuming it is true) is that Archie descends from Robert and that Archie has a difference in his Y-chromosome that is not shared by Stewart male-line descendants who branched earlier. It is an monstrous overstatement to call this a marker of descent from Robert III. The mutation could have happened in any generation between Robert and Archie - it may have first arisen in Archie himself. Assuming the facts stated are true (that Archie descends from Robert, that Archie has a mutation not shared by descendants of Robert's brothers), then anyone who has it must share the same line as Archie and descend from Robert, but that doesn't mean that all descendants of Robert must have it. Any branch that split off before the mutation happened would still have the 'ancestral' Stewart subtype, even though they also descends from Robert. Overblown claims like this are why most scientists despise the 'science-by-press-release' model (unless they are the ones getting the publicity). taf

On 03/06/16 03:19, condyfee wrote: > the Memorials of the Cranes of Chilton has a a Pedigree showing > da. of Tho? Green of Greeting., by tracing a number of land actions i find a > tie of Thomas Grene of Westcretynge [Creeting St Peter], will made 1439 > as the father of Agnes, wife of Robert Crane of Stonham Jernegan, You seem to be having a problem with your subject line which appears to be part of a URL. Just use plain text such as "Cranes of Chilton". Ian -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

This is another step forward in using DNA testing in order to verify or refute lines of royal descent. I'm a bit confused, though, as to the details. Is Archie Shaw Stewart a male-line yDNA descendant of King Robert III Stewart of Scotland? Are there any yDNA descendants of King Robert III outside of those descended from the illegitimate sons of Charles II and James II? Or, does the genetic marker apply to any descendant - thru male lines or female lines - of Robert III? Cheers, -------Brad **************************************************** http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/genetic-marker-reveals-descendants-medieval-king Genetic marker reveals descendants of medieval king By Editor, 27 May 2016 - 11:47am A DNA study has uncovered a genetic marker that will help researchers confirm if they are descended from a medieval Scottish king. A DNA study led by the University of Strathclyde has uncovered a genetic marker that will help researchers confirm if they are descended from King Robert III, who ruled Scotland from 1390 to 1406. Scottish businessman Archie Shaw Stewart, who offered a sample of his DNA as part of the study, was delighted to have his family’s research confirmed. “It’s wonderful to be able to discriminate with a high level of confidence between some branches of families by the ability to trace genetic mutations,” he explained. “My great uncle, Patrick Shaw Stewart, produced an extensive family tree more than 100 years ago, extending back to Robert III. He would be very satisfied to see this part of it verified by new technology.” The discovery has been made as part of the Bannockburn Family History Project, which explores genetic connections between people living today and their ancestors who fought in the Battle. It is run by the Genealogical Studies Postgraduate Programme at Strathclyde’s Centre for Lifelong Learning. Graham Holton, Principal Tutor with the programme, said: “This is a fascinating discovery of a distinct marker for descendants of Robert III. “The marker is not found in descendants of the king’s brothers, showing that a mutation in the DNA occurred in either Robert III himself or one of his descendants. It is not yet known in which generation this took place, but we are delighted to have been able to confirm Archie Shaw Stewart’s place in medieval royal lineage, and acknowledge his contribution to furthering research into the branches of the Stewarts.”

As a newcomer to DNA I have found this discussion quite interesting. It is quite apparent that Thomas Tinney appears to have no clue what he's talking about. He creates straw people to knock down and then tries to apply it to real people. While I do not know as much about DNA as others in this discussion do, I do know that using DNA as a tool to assist in doing genealogy has greatly improved since I first heard about it around 2004 or so. I stress the word tool because that is all DNA is. I'm using it as a tool to, as Nathan put it, "confirm and find new relatives rather than for ethnicity purposes." Is DNA flawed, that is not perfect? Of course it is. As has been pointed out no way of doing genealogy is without it's flaws as Mr. Tinney, being a professional genealogist, should know. We have just had a brief discussion about Dudo, who is of questionable value to genealogists, although he is a primary source from early medieval times. Official documents have been known to occasionally contain errors. We use a variety of tools. including DNA, to help us with genealogy to try to catch errors and to construct as a good a genealogy as we can. Peter D. A. Warwick

On Thursday, 2 June 2016 00:36:06 UTC+1, rbe...@fernside.co.nz wrote: > Thanks Matt > > Yes, I’ve come round to your conclusion that the letter must have been written in 1302, as John de St John of Basing was still a prisoner in Paris in 1298. The context of the letter then makes perfect sense in all other aspects. The “Langham” location is possibly Lochmaben abbreviated to something like L’maben, or “Loumaban” as I’ve seen it, but as you say it can only be determined by examining the original. > <snip> > > Cheers > Rosie > ------------------------- Thank you, Rosie. Derek Barrie, who wrote a 1991 thesis on the baronage under Edward I, also dated the letter to 1302, though for reasons for suggestive than conclusive: Derek A. Barrie, The 'Maiores Barones' in the second half of the reign of Edward I, (1290-1307), PhD thesis, university of St Andrews (1991), p. 143. https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4594 Matt

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 12:37:39 PM UTC-7, John Watson wrote: > A nice little website which enables anyone to easily create a coat of arms from a blazon. The result can be saved as a graphic file. For those who like to decorate their family trees with arms. > http://www.karlwilcox.com/drawshield/create/ Thank you, John, for the link. What a great tool - I'm already using it. Cheers, -----Brad