There's a good search function at the Beds Archives: http://bedsarchivescat.bedford.gov.uk/#Archive Is this the right time frame, 1418 - 1430? Here are a couple Common Pleas records: 1418 / f 433, third entry: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H5/CP40no629/aCP40no629fronts/IMG_0433.htm Hunts. Henry Godfrey and John Herteshorn, of Yekwell, executors of Joan, who was the wife of Henry Godfrey of North Yevyll, Beds, and formerly the wife of John of Herlynton, versus John Peek, of Yakesley, yeoman, for a debt of ten pounds. 1430 / d 984, third full entry: Hunts. Henry Godfrey and John Mepersale versus Robert Boteler, of Gillyng, for waste (destruction of real property by someone in temporary possession).

Has anyone done research on Henry Godfrey of Bedfordshire, husband of Joan Meppershall? The hints that I've found in The Publications Of The Bedfordshire Historical Record Society suggest the family may be of aristocratic origin. I'm currently looking through the Close Rolls and the Patent Rolls for more clues. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to where to look? Henry lived in the 1400s. Peter D. A. Warwick

Dear Newsgroup, Searching archives of this group, trying to confirm whether the Eustace mentioned above was a son of Bernard II or not, I found one older post (by Alex Maxwell Findlater) stating that Eustace seigneur de Hélincourt was a cousin, not a son of Bernard II (which is in line with the ODNB, 2004), making him a son of a Hugh de Helicourt (d ca. 1181). (BTW, this is also shown in Wikipedia...not the best source for this issues). My question is, was his father a Baliol or was he a Helicourt married to a Baliol daughter? The question seems unresolved in many sources, so I am at a loss here. Most sources (secondary ones) ignore this parentage, making Eustace a son of Bernard II. Has any recent development shed light on this issue? Your insights, as always, are much appreciated. Thanks and best regards.

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:09:05 PM UTC-7, gera...@earthlink.net wrote: > I've heard that men were able to take care of their favorite illicitly- > begotten children, but how did they do it when the laws gave bastards no > rights of inheritance? There are ways to take care of someone without them inheriting - granting them a 99 year lease, an enfeoffment, arranging a good marriage for them, using a fine to subvert inheritance . . . . taf

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:09:55 PM UTC-7, Hovite wrote: > Eoppa is not a real name, but a hypocoristic form of Eorpwine, just as Nunna is short for Nothhelm, Offa for Osfrith, and Eaba for Eadbeald, Eadberth, or even female Eadburh. Eorpwine as a father of Eormenric would fit the Kentish system of alliteration. Let's be clear here. There is no evidence that Eoppa isn't just a made up string of letters put into a pedigree. It is unclear to me why Eoppa must represent Eorpwine vs Eorp(anything else). As to Offa being short for Osfrith, I am not buying that at all. Offa was continental legendary figure and there is no reason whatsoever he should have a typical Anglo-Saxon name - certainly other continental figures, such as Finn of Frisa, or is he just another disguised Englishman. I am not looking for reasons why Eoppa (or more appropriately Eppa) would be an appropriate father for Eormenric, given that every other account of the pedigree that we have give Eormenric of Kent an entirely distinct father - Octa or Oisc (the names are swapped in order in different versions), and the one pedigree naming the father of an Eormenric as Eppa doesn't even intend this to be the Kentish king - the author just needed some names so he stole and modified Bede's Kent pedigree to create ancient 'Kings of Bernicia'. taf

I just remembered another case with the populous Butlers. Thomas Butler, 10th Earl of Ormond, had at least 11 illegitimate children. I don't know how they were all taken care of, but one, Piers, was given property and some degree of power by his father. A tantalizing but unprovable theory is that his mother was someone important, possibly QE1.

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:09:05 PM UTC-7, gera...@earthlink.net wrote: > I've heard that men were able to take care of their favorite illicitly- begotten children, but how did they do it when the laws gave bastards no rights of inheritance? An interesting case is where Sir Thomas Martin eventually married the children's mother and allotted them their due inheritances, but a kinsman successfully overturned the inheritances in court on the grounds that they were born bastards regardless of the father eventually marrying the mother. > http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/martin-william > > Are you familiar with cases of bastards inheriting? How did they do it? I know of a case where an older brother did *not* inherit property & peerage because a younger brother went to court to have him (as well as another older brother) declared illegitimate. The late John Butler, Lord Dunboyne, told me that this was the case with the 8th Earl of Ormond - he had various people, including a priest, testify that their parents were not married when his two older brothers were born. According to Dunboyne, the evidence and testimony was the result of an organized plot and was not true. But it allowed Peter to gain Ormond at the expense of his older brothers. This information was passed to me in private communication. As far as bastards actually inheriting, I see evidence of this when a child is illegitimate but becomes legitimized. I guess the most famous case would be in England with the Beauforts.

I've heard that men were able to take care of their favorite illicitly- begotten children, but how did they do it when the laws gave bastards no rights of inheritance? An interesting case is where Sir Thomas Martin eventually married the children's mother and allotted them their due inheritances, but a kinsman successfully overturned the inheritances in court on the grounds that they were born bastards regardless of the father eventually marrying the mother. http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/martin-william Are you familiar with cases of bastards inheriting? How did they do it?

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 11:04:43 AM UTC-4, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote: > As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed > Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most > recently) unproven again. Her descent from Aethelred II "Ill-counseled" > seems to be on reasonably firm ground. This is my understanding as well. The ahnentafel I have for this fine fellow: > John Giffard, son of Thomas & Eleanor (6), b. abt. 1431 (6), of > Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. bef. 23 Sep 1506 (6), m. Agnes Wynslow > (6) is this: 1. John Giffard, born Abt. 1431 of Twyford,Busks, England; died Bef September 23, 1506 in England. He married (1) Agnes Winslowe. She was born Abt. 1439 in England. 2. Thomas Giffard, born Bef. December 29, 1408 in Fringford, Oxford, England; died May 29, 1469 in England. He was the son of 4. Roger Giffard and 5. Isabel Stretele. He married 3. Eleanor Vaux Abt. 1430. 3. Eleanor Vaux, born Abt. 1410 in Twyford,Bucks, England. She was the daughter of 6. William Thomas Vaux and 7. Eleanor Drakelowe. 4. Roger Giffard, born Abt. 1367 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died April 14, 1409 in Bucks, England. He was the son of 8. Thomas Giffard and 9. Elizabeth de Missenden. He married 5. Isabel Stretele Bef. 1407 in England. 5. Isabel Stretele 6. William Thomas Vaux, born Abt. 1375 in Harrowden, Northamptonshire, England; died 1405 in England. He was the son of 12. William de Vaux and 13. Joan Thirning. He married 7. Eleanor Drakelowe Abt. 1398. 7. Eleanor Drakelowe 8. Thomas Giffard, born Abt. 1345 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died September 25, 1394 in Bucks, England. He was the son of 16. John Giffard and 17. Lucy de Morteyn. He married 9. Elizabeth de Missenden Abt. 1361. 9. Elizabeth de Missenden, died Abt. 1367. 12. William de Vaux He was the son of 24. William de Vaux and 25. Joan ?. He married 13. Joan Thirning. 13. Joan Thirning 16. John Giffard, born 1301 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died January 25, 1368/69 in England. He was the son of 32. John Giffard and 33. Alexandra de Gardinis. He married 17. Lucy de Morteyn. 17. Lucy de Morteyn, born Abt. 1305 in Tillsworth, Bedfordshire, England; died Aft. March 08, 1360/61 in England. She was the daughter of 34. John de Morteyn and 35. Joan De Rothwell. 24. William de Vaux, died Bef. 1373. He married 25. Joan ?. 25. Joan ? 32. John Giffard, born Abt. 1270 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died Aft. March 30, 1328. He was the son of 64. John Giffard. He married 33. Alexandra de Gardinis Abt. 1301. 33. Alexandra de Gardinis, born Abt. 1275 in Oxford, England; died Bef. 1328 in England. She was the daughter of 66. Thomas de Gardinis. 34. John de Morteyn, born Abt. 1274 in Tillsworth, England; died 1346. He was the son of 68. John de Morteyn and 69. Joan Gobion. He married 35. Joan De Rothwell 1304 in England. 35. Joan De Rothwell, born Abt. 1283. She was the daughter of 70. Richard de Rothwell. 64. John Giffard, born Abt. 1235 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died 1300 in England. He was the son of 128. Osbert Giffard and 129. Isabel de Bocland. 66. Thomas de Gardinis, born Abt. 1253 in Oxford, England. 68. John de Morteyn, born Abt. 1245 in Tillsworth, England; died 1296 in Bedfordshire, England. He was the son of 136. John de Morteyn and 137. Constance de Merston. He married 69. Joan Gobion. 69. Joan Gobion She was the daughter of 138. Hugh Gobion and 139. Matilda. 70. Richard de Rothwell 128. Osbert Giffard, born Abt. 1188 in Brimsfield, England. He was the son of 256. Elias Giffard and 257. Maud de Berkeley. He married 129. Isabel de Bocland Abt. 1230. 129. Isabel de Bocland, born Abt. 1211. She was the daughter of 258. Alan de Bocland and 259. Alice de Murdac. 136. John de Morteyn, died Aft. 1265. He married 137. Constance de Merston. 137. Constance de Merston, died Abt. 1293. She was the daughter of 274. Ralph de Merston. 138. Hugh Gobion, died 1275. He was the son of 276. Richard Gobion and 277. Agnes de Merlay. He married 139. Matilda. 139. Matilda 256. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1142. He was the son of 512. Elias Giffard and 513. Bertha FitzPons. He married 257. Maud de Berkeley Abt. 1183. 257. Maud de Berkeley, born Abt. 1163. She was the daughter of 514. Maurice de Berkeley and 515. Alice de Berkeley. 258. Alan de Bocland, born Abt. 1189. He married 259. Alice de Murdac. 259. Alice de Murdac She was the daughter of 518. Ralph de Murdac and 519. Eve de Grey. 274. Ralph de Merston 276. Richard Gobion, died Bef. December 29, 1230 in Gascony. He married 277. Agnes de Merlay. 277. Agnes de Merlay She was the daughter of 554. Roger de Merlay and 555. Alice de Stuteville. 512. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1095 in England; died Abt. 1190. He was the son of 1024. Elias Giffard and 1025. Ala ?. He married 513. Bertha FitzPons. 513. Bertha FitzPons, born Abt. 1115; died Aft. 1167. She was the daughter of 1026. Richard FitzPons and 1027. Maud de Gloucester. 514. Maurice de Berkeley, born Abt. 1120; died June 16, 1190. He was the son of 1028. Robert FitzHarding and 1029. Eva. He married 515. Alice de Berkeley 1154. 515. Alice de Berkeley She was the daughter of 1030. Roger III de Berkeley. 518. Ralph de Murdac, born Abt. 1140. He married 519. Eve de Grey. 519. Eve de Grey, born Abt. 1176. 554. Roger de Merlay, died 1188. He was the son of 1108. Ralph de Merlay and 1109. Juliana of Dunbar. He married 555. Alice de Stuteville. 555. Alice de Stuteville, died 1202. She was the daughter of 1110. Roger de Stuteville. 1024. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1045 in Brimsfield, England; died in England. He was the son of 2048. Osbourne Giffard. He married 1025. Ala ?. 1025. Ala ? 1026. Richard FitzPons He married 1027. Maud de Gloucester. 1027. Maud de Gloucester She was the daughter of 2054. Walter of Gloucester and 2055. Bertha. 1028. Robert FitzHarding, born Abt. 1100; died Abt. 1170. He was the son of 2056. Harding. He married 1029. Eva. 1029. Eva 1030. Roger III de Berkeley He was the son of 2060. Roger II de Berkeley. 1108. Ralph de Merlay, died 1160. He was the son of 2216. William de Merlay and 2217. Menialde. He married 1109. Juliana of Dunbar. 1109. Juliana of Dunbar She was the daughter of 2218. Gospatrick II and 2219. Sybil Morel. 1110. Roger de Stuteville, died Bef. 1202. He was the son of 2220. Osmond de Stuteville and 2221. Isabel de Gressinghall. 2048. Osbourne Giffard, died Aft. 1096. He was the son of 4096. Osbern de Bolbec and 4097. Wevie de Crepon. 2054. Walter of Gloucester, died 1129. He was the son of 4108. Roger de Pistres. He married 2055. Bertha. 2055. Bertha 2056. Harding He was the son of 4112. Eadnoth. 2060. Roger II de Berkeley He was the son of 4120. Roger I de Berkeley and 4121. Rissa. 2216. William de Merlay, died Abt. 1129. He married 2217. Menialde. 2217. Menialde 2218. Gospatrick II, died August 22, 1138 in Cowton Moore, nr Northallerton . He was the son of 4436. Gospatrick I. He married 2219. Sybil Morel. 2219. Sybil Morel 2220. Osmond de Stuteville, died Bef. September 1202. He was the son of 4440. Robert de Stuteville and 4441. Erneburga de Baldric. He married 2221. Isabel de Gressinghall. 2221. Isabel de Gressinghall 4096. Osbern de Bolbec, born Abt. 940 in Longueville, Normandy. He married 4097. Wevie de Crepon Abt. 1001. 4097. Wevie de Crepon, born in Longueville, Normandy, France. 4108. Roger de Pistres 4112. Eadnoth, born Abt. 1030; died 1068. 4120. Roger I de Berkeley, died 1093. He married 4121. Rissa. 4121. Rissa 4436. Gospatrick I, died December 15, 1075 in Ubbanford, Scotland . He was the son of 8872. Maldred of Carlisle and 8873. Edith of Northumberland. 4440. Robert de Stuteville, died 1185. He was the son of 8880. Robert de Stuteville. He married 4441. Erneburga de Baldric. 4441. Erneburga de Baldric 8872. Maldred of Carlisle, born Abt. 1005. He was the son of 17744. Crinan and 17745. Bethoc of Scotland. He married 8873. Edith of Northumberland. 8873. Edith of Northumberland She was the daughter of 17746. Uchtred of Northumberland and 17747. Elgifu of England. 8880. Robert de Stuteville, died Aft. 1107. He was the son of 17760. Robert D'estouteville and 17761. Jeanne de Tallebot. 17744. Crinan, born Abt. 975; died 1045. He married 17745. Bethoc of Scotland. 17745. Bethoc of Scotland, born Abt. 975. She was the daughter of 35490. Malcolm II macCinaeda. 17746. Uchtred of Northumberland, born 989; died 1016. He married 17747. Elgifu of England. 17747. Elgifu of England She was the daughter of 35494. KING Ethelred the Unready and 35495. Elfgifu. 17760. Robert D'estouteville He married 17761. Jeanne de Tallebot. 17761. Jeanne de Tallebot 35490. Malcolm II macCinaeda, died November 25, 1034 in Glammis. He was the son of 70980. Keneth II macMaelColuim. 35494. KING Ethelred the Unready, born Abt. 968; died April 23, 1016 in London, Manchester, England. He was the son of 70988. KING Edgar the Peaceful and 70989. Alfthryth. He married 35495. Elfgifu. 35495. Elfgifu 70980. Keneth II macMaelColuim, died 995 in Fettercairn, Scotland. He was the son of 141960. Malcolm macDomnaill. 70988. KING Edgar the Peaceful, born Abt. 943; died July 08, 975. He was the son of 141976. KING EDMUND I and 141977. Elfgifu. He married 70989. Alfthryth. 70989. Alfthryth, born Abt. 945 in Lydford Castle, Devon; died Bet. November 17, 999 - 1002 in Wherwell Abbey, Hampshire. She was the daughter of 141978. Ordgar and 141979. ?. 141960. Malcolm macDomnaill, died 954. He was the son of 283920. Donald macCausantin. 141976. KING EDMUND I, born Abt. 922; died May 26, 946 in Pucklechurch. He was the son of 283952. Edward the Elder and 283953. Eadgifu. He married 141977. Elfgifu. 141977. Elfgifu, died Abt. May 18, 944. She was the daughter of 283955. Wynfled. 141978. Ordgar, died 971. He married 141979. ?. 141979. ?, died Bef. 981. 283920. Donald macCausantin, died 900 in Forres. He was the son of 567840. Causantin mac Cináeda. 283952. Edward the Elder, born Abt. 872; died July 17, 924 in in Farndon-On-Dee, Mercia, England. He was the son of 567904. KING Alfred the Great and 567905. Eahlswith of Gaini. He married 283953. Eadgifu. 283953. Eadgifu, died Aft. 966. She was the daughter of 567906. Sigehelm. 283955. Wynfled 567840. Causantin mac Cináeda, died 876. He was the son of 1135680. Cináed mac Alpin. 567904. KING Alfred the Great, born Abt. 849 in Wantage, Berkshire; died October 28, 899. He was the son of 1135808. Ethelwulf and 1135809. Osburga. He married 567905. Eahlswith of Gaini 868 in Wincester, England. 567905. Eahlswith of Gaini, died Bet. December 05, 902 - 903 in Wincester, England. She was the daughter of 1135810. Aethelred Mucil and 1135811. Eadburga. 567906. Sigehelm, died Bet. 902 - 904 in Battle of Holme. 1135680. Cináed mac Alpin, died February 08, 857/58 in Palace of Forteviot, Perthshire. He was the son of 2271360. Alpín mac Ech[d]ach. 1135808. Ethelwulf, born Abt. 800; died January 13, 857/58. He was the son of 2271616. Ecgbert III of Wessex and 2271617. Redburga. He married 1135809. Osburga. 1135809. Osburga She was the daughter of 2271618. Oslac. 1135810. Aethelred Mucil, died 866. He married 1135811. Eadburga. 1135811. Eadburga 2271360. Alpín mac Ech[d]ach, died Abt. 840 in Galloway. He was the son of 4542720. Eochaid mac Áeda Find. 2271616. Ecgbert III of Wessex, born Abt. 775; died February 04, 838/39. He was the son of 4543232. Eahlmund of Kent. He married 2271617. Redburga. 2271617. Redburga 2271618. Oslac 4542720. Eochaid mac Áeda Find, died Abt. 781. He was the son of 9085440. Áed Find mac Echdach. 4543232. Eahlmund of Kent, died Aft. 784. He was the son of 9086464. Eaba of Wessex. 9085440. Áed Find mac Echdach, died 778. He was the son of 18170880. Eochaid mac Echach. 9086464. Eaba of Wessex He was the son of 18172928. Eoppa. 18170880. Eochaid mac Echach, died 733. He was the son of 36341760. Eochu ua Domnaill. 18172928. Eoppa, died Abt. 718. He was the son of 36345856. Inglid. 36341760. Eochu ua Domnaill, died Abt. 697. He was the son of 72683520. Domangart mac Domnaill Bricc. 36345856. Inglid He was the son of 72691712. Cenred. 72683520. Domangart mac Domnaill Bricc, died Abt. 673. He was the son of 145367040. Domnall Brecc. 72691712. Cenred He was the son of 145383424. Ceolwald. 145367040. Domnall Brecc, died Abt. 643. He was the son of 290734080. Eochu Buide. 145383424. Ceolwald He was the son of 290766848. Cuthwulf. 290734080. Eochu Buide, died Abt. 632. He was the son of 581468160. Áedán mac Gabráin. 290766848. Cuthwulf, born Abt. 592. He was the son of 581533696. Cuthwine. 581468160. Áedán mac Gabráin, died Abt. 609. He was the son of 1162936320. Gabrán mac Domangairt. 581533696. Cuthwine, born Abt. 565. He was the son of 1163067392. Ceawlin. 1162936320. Gabrán mac Domangairt, died Abt. 559. He was the son of 2325872640. Domangart mac Fergusa. 1163067392. Ceawlin, died 593. He was the son of 2326134784. Cynric. 2325872640. Domangart mac Fergusa, died Abt. 506. He was the son of 4651745280. Fergus. 2326134784. Cynric He was the son of 4652269568. Creoda. 4651745280. Fergus, died Abt. 501. He was the son of 9303490560. Ercc. 4652269568. Creoda He was the son of 9304539136. Cerdic. 9303490560. Ercc 9304539136. Cerdic

Eoppa is not a real name, but a hypocoristic form of Eorpwine, just as Nunna is short for Nothhelm, Offa for Osfrith, and Eaba for Eadbeald, Eadberth, or even female Eadburh. Eorpwine as a father of Eormenric would fit the Kentish system of alliteration.

As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most recently) unproven again. Her descent from Aethelred II "Ill-counseled" seems to be on reasonably firm ground. Below is what I have from what seem to me like decent secondary sources -- if anything seems dodgy, or has been more recently disproven, please point it out. Sources: (1) The Henry Project (2) Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (3) Complete Peerage (4) G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Royal Descent of a New England Settler." NEHGR 79:358, 1925. (5) G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Morteyns of Marston and Tillsworth." TAG 38:194, 1922. (6) G. Andrews Moriarty, "Genealogical Research in England." NEHGR 74:231, 74:267, 1920; 75:57, 75:129, 1921. (7) Robert L. Steenrod, "Alice (Freeman) (Tompson) Parke." TAG 29:215, 1953. (8) Randy A. West, "Alice Freeman, Wife of John Tompson of Preston Capes, Northamptonshire, and of Robert Parke of Connecticut: New Information on Her Parents, Siblings, Children, and First Husband." TAG 87:209, January-April 2015. Aethelred II "Unraed", king of England, b. abt 968 (1), d. 23 Apr 1016, London (1); m. a woman possibly named Aelfgifu (1) Aelfgifu, daughter of Aethelred II & Aelfgifu (1), m. Uhtred, earl of Northumbria (1), who d. 1016 (1) Ealdgyth, daughter of Uhtred & Aelfgifu (1) (2), m. Maldred (1) (2) Gospatric, earl of Northumbria, son of Maldred & Ealdgyth (2), b. bet. 1040 and 1048 (3), d. bet. 1073 and 1075 (2), wife unknown Gospatric, earl of Lothian, son of Gospatric (2), d. prob. in the Battle of the Standard, 22 Aug 1138 (2), wife unknown Juliana, daughter of the second Gospatric (2), m. Ranulph de Merlay (2) of Morpeth, Northumberland (2) Roger de Merlay, son of Ranulph & Juliana (4), d. 1188 (4), m. Alice de Stuteville (4) Agnes de Merlay, daughter of Roger & Alice (4), m. Richard Gobion (4), who d. bef. 27 Dec 1230, prob. in Gascony (4) Hugh Gobion, son of Richard & Agnes (4), d. 1275 (4), m. Matilda (4) Joan Gobion, daughter of Hugh & Matilda (4), d. aft 1312 (5), m. John de Morteyn (4) who d. 1296 (4) (5) John de Morteyn, son of John & Joan (4), of Merston, Bedfordshire (4) (5), d. 1346 (4), m. Joan de Rothwell (4) Lucy de Morteyn, daughter of John & Joan (4) (5), m. John Giffard (4) who was of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (4) Thomas Giffard, son of John & Lucy (4), b. about 1345 (4) (6), of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (4) (6), d. 25 Sep 1394 (6), m. ab. 1361 (6) Elizabeth de Missenden (5) (6) who d. 1367 (6) Roger Giffard, son of Thomas & Elizabeth (6), b. abt 1367 (6), of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. 14 Apr 1409 (6), m. bef. 1408 (6) Isabel Stretley (6) who was prob. of Stretley, Buckinghamshire (6) Thomas Giffard, son of Roger & Isabel (6), b. 1408, Fringford, Oxfordshire (6), d. 29 May 1469 (6), m. Eleanor Vaux (6) John Giffard, son of Thomas & Eleanor (6), b. abt. 1431 (6), of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. bef. 23 Sep 1506 (6), m. Agnes Wynslow (6) Thomas Giffard, son of John & Agnes (6), of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. 10 Oct 1511 (6), m. Jane Langston (6) Amy (or Anna) Giffard, daughter of Thomas & Jane (6), b. bet. 1485 and 1490 (7), m. bef. 1511 (6) (7) Richard Samwell (6) (7), who was of Edgecote, Northamptonshire (6) and who d. 3 May 1519 (7) Susanna Samwell, daughter of Richard & Amy (7), m. in or aft. 1535 (7) Peter Edwards (7) who was of Peterborough, Northamptonshire (7) Edward Edwards, son of Peter & Susanna (7), b. abt 1537 (7), d. 1592 (7), m. Ursula Coles (7) who was bur. 2 Feb 1606, Awalton, Huntingdonshire (7) Margaret Edwards, daughter of Edward & Ursula (7) (8), b. abt. 1570 (8), d. aft. 23 Aug 1637 (8), m. (7) abt. 1591 (8) Henry Freeman (8) who was b. abt. 1566 (8) and who d. 5 Aug 1606, prob. Cranford St. John, Northamptonshire (8) Alice Freeman, later Tompson, later Parke, daughter of Henry & Margaret, (7) (8), b. abt. 1595 (8), d. aft. 24 Dec 1658, prob. New London or Stonington, Connecticut (8) -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden pnh@panix.com about.me/patricknh http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php

Dear all, It may be of interest to members of s.g.m that a portion of the genealogical materials kept by the Deutschordenszentralarchiv (the Central Archive of the Teutonic Order) are now digitised at: http://monasterium.net/mom/AT-DOZA/Ahnenproben/fond An index and abstracts of a sort for these materials was prepared in the nineteenth century by Leopold Nedopil and digitised versions of his works can be accessed here: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Deutsche_Adelsproben_aus_dem_Deutschen_Ordens-Central-Archive_(Nedopil) It's not yet clear to me what the logic is behind which documents have been digitised on Monasterium and which have not . . . . All the best, Kelsey

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:17:16 PM UTC-4, cynthia.ann...@gmail.com wrote: > I've been lurking on and off and wonder if there is anything new on the ancestry of Alice Freeman of Preston Capes and later New London CT, wife of John Thompson and later Robert Parke. Seems she had royal lines, then she didn't, then she did, then she didn't again. > Are any of her lines still valid? > I have the RD600 published in 2004 that takes her back to Ethelred II but in that same book there's a line from among others John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney that goes back to Louis IV of France. > It appears that Alice Freeman has John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney in her direct ancestry too, so does the line from her back to Louis IV King of France work as well? > And if she has any lines that are valid back to royalty, might anyone who knows what they are doing suggest some reasonably available sources to document the line? RD600 is great for seeing the whole line, but not so great when it comes to dates and sources. > Thank you for any direction regarding Alice Freeman's ancestry. If Alice Freeman does still have a valid line to Charlemagne, would someone post it or point me in the right direction? Thanks.

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 10:32:18 PM UTC-4, Stewart Baldwin via wrote: > On 5/31/2016 2:18 PM, taf via wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 9:53:17 AM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Perhaps, but both have been useful. Y-DNA testing has been useful to connect individuals genealogically back 10,11, maybe 15 generations back or more. > >> > >> autosomal DNA testing has been useful to me to prove/connect to individuals on a must more recent timescale (5 or 6 generations back with confidence). > >> > >> So, Y-DNA has a lot more depth on the chart, but autosomal has much more bredth in lieu of depth. > >> > >> Both useful, but in different ways. > > I think Andrew was talking about a different type of autosomal analysis than you are. He was talking about SNP analysis used to determine ethnic proportions - basically useless for genealogy unless you don't know if your grandfather was a Finn or an Italian and you know everyone else is neither. What is more useful is the autosomal SNP clustering analysis that looks at conserved islands of contiguous DNA and can tell you someone is related to you within about a half-dozen generations. While it has limits, that can be useful data, though it proves no specific connection. > > The generation estimates given by the testing companies can be very > misleading, and I sometimes wonder if they are making the results sound > as good as they can possibly justify. I had my autosomal DNA tested by > FamilyTreeDNA, and I have not been fortunate to find many matches close > enough to be easily traceable, but when I got my results, I at least > thought that the relationship ranges would be close enough that a > significant percentage would fall within the range specified. Interesting analysis. On familytreeDNA my results are quite a mishmash and the ranges are terrible. On ancestry DNA I get the following: One "1st-2nd cousin" match who is a 1st cousin, once removed Two "3rd-fourth cousin" matches. One is a 2nd cousin, twice removed, and the other is a likely non-paternal event not yet traced. 42 "4th-6th cousin" matches, of which there are by paper: 1 2nd cousin, once removed 1 2nd cousin, twice removed 3 3rd cousins 1 3rd cousin once removed 1 4th cousin 1 5th cousin 1 5th cousin, once removed 7 cannot find the link 26 I have no information for

On Saturday, 4 June 2016 17:22:33 UTC+1, Andrew Lancaster via wrote: > Dear List > > It seems a good idea to add the sourcing from Clarence-Smith's footnotes: > > 1. For the death 1210, he cites the Pipe Rolls, PRS 26 NS, p.35 > 2. For the information at the death of Philip Basset, IPM 56 H3, > Calendar I, No. 807, p.273 > > Going beyond the quotation I already passed, Clarence-Smith points out > that Heloise may have been named after her grandmother, and that the IPM > shows she pre-deceased Philip. In a footnote he also mentions that there > is a charter by the Prioress of Wix to the lord Philip Basset and > Helewisia his wife (New Monastican IV, p.515, IV). In the context of the > running article I read this as more evidence of the link to Ralph de > Hastings. > > Relevant to my post here there is then a long footnote about other > theories, which I should now quote in full: > > "G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV, > p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir > Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of Sir > Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended a > footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by the > service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of John > de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine has no > other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she held Wix in > free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the Inquisition > specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her father." > > So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion > about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote > when writing my original post.) > > Best Regards > Andrew > > > On 4/06/2016 14:24, Andrew Lancaster wrote: > > > > Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, > > leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been > > granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising > > to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of > > this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the > > manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia > > his wife'." > > > > Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part > > 1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1. > > Dear Andrew, A few observations. If Hawise was the daughter of Sir Matthew de Louvain, then the Sir Matthew de Louvain mentioned as one of the overlords of Wix in the 1271 ipm of Sir Philip Basset, was her brother. Sir Matthew de Louvain died shortly before 11 December 1261, leaving a son and heir Matthew aged 24 and more (CIPM, i., no. 523). He died before 24 May 1302 (CIPM, iv, no. 97). ODNB says that Hawise died before 1254-5, when Philip Basset was married to Ela, the daughter of William Longespée, earl of Salisbury and calls her Helewisa de Lovaine without any parentage. I think that the history of Wix is more complicated than appears in some sources. There may have been more than one manor there, or the manor was held in parts. 1198, In Easter Term 9 Richard I, Ralph de Cornhill and Alice his wife, daughter of Robert de Hastings, were involved in a suit concerning half a knight's fee in Wix with Ralph de Hastings, brother of Robert de Hastings (CRR, i, 61). In Trinity Term 1200-1, Godfrey de Louvain and Alice his wife (widow of Ralph de Cornhill), granted half a knight's fee in Wix to Ralph de Hastings, who granted part of it to William Carbonel (Feet of Fines Essex, i, 23). In 1203, Sewal de Oseville quitclaimed half a knight's fee in Wix to Ralph de Hastings (ibid, 48). In Trinity Term 1203-4, Ralph de Hastings granted half a knight's fee in Wix, formerly held by Alexander de Waham, to Sewal de Oseville (ibid, 33). In Trinity Term 1246-7, the prioress of Wix exchanged land and woods in Wix with Philip Basset and Helewise his wife, (which lands were of the inheritance of Helewise) (ibid, 156). In 1289, the inquisition post mortem of Aline la Despenser, daughter of Philip Basset shows her as holding the manor of Wykes, "whence are paid of yearly rent, for the guard of the castle of Colcestre pertaining to the farm of the hundred of Tendring 12s., to Sir Matthew de Lovaine 10s., and to John Carbonel 14s." (CIPM, ii, no. 389). The ipm of Sir Mathew de Louvain in June 1302 shows Hugh le Despenser holding of him, 1 carucate of land in Wix for half a knight's fee and paying 10s. yearly (CIPM, iv, no. 97). This half a knight's fee in Wix held by the Despensers would appear to be the same half fee disputed between Ralph de Cornhill, his wife Alice de Hastings and Ralph de Hastings in 1198. Regards, John

On 4/06/2016 10:30 PM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > In 1300 Sir Roger de Kirkpatrick was made constable of Lochmaben castle > from 8 July to 19 November while Sir John de St John was absent with the > king's army, 'post recessum ejusdem domini Johannis de eisdem partibus > ad exercitum regis ... ab 8 die Julii usque 19 diem Novembr[is]', see > *Liber quotidianum contrarotulorum garderobae* (London, 1787) p. 140, > https://archive.org/stream/liberquotidianu00tophgoog#page/n218/mode/2up. > > Apologies for the error in the title cited - this should be *Liber quotidianum contrarotulatoris garderobae. Peter Stewart

On 4/06/2016 9:30 AM, Peter Stewart via wrote: > > On 4/06/2016 12:08 AM, Tompkins@lists2.rootsweb.com wrote: >> On 3/06/2016 6:16 PM, Matt Tompkins via wrote: >>>> Thank you, Rosie. Derek Barrie, who wrote a 1991 thesis on the baronage under Edward I, also dated the letter to 1302, though for reasons more suggestive than conclusive: Derek A. Barrie, The 'Maiores Barones' in the second half of the reign of Edward I, (1290-1307), PhD thesis, university of St Andrews (1991), p. 143. >>>> >>>> https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/4594 >>>> >> ------------------------- >> From: Peter Stewart via [gen-medieval@rootsweb.com] >> Sent: 03 June 2016 11:19 >>> I think the case for 1302 over the alternatives set out before by Matt >> is a bit stronger than Derek Barrie suggested - he wrote: 'The reference >> to his [John de St John's] illness, given his death later that year, >> points to 1302 as the correct date.' >>> St. John was appointed warden of Galloway on 5 January 1300, not long >> after he had been released from imprisonment in France apparently after >> 10 September 1299. As posted before, he died at Lochmaber castle on >> Thursday 6 September 1302, just eight days after the meeting he was too >> ill to attend, which would have taken place on Wednesday 29 August in >> that year. >>> We don't have to rely only on Annales Londonienses for the timing of St >> John's death - news of this had reached the king by 14 September, >> *Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland* vol. v, p. 173 no. 292: >> '[1302] ... [Draft of 9 privy seal writs of Edward I.] (iii) 14 Sept. To >> Walter de Glouc', escheator south of Trent. Sir John de St John, the >> elder, is dead'. The writ for St John's IPM was issued on 12 October, >> *Calendar of IPMs* vol. iv p. 61 no. 96. >>> Peter Stewart >>> >> ------------------------------- >> Surely we only know that the meeting he was too ill to attend was a few days before his death if we assume that the letter referring to the meeting was written in 1302. Isn't that circular logic? >> >> The illness referred to in the letter might well have been the one which finished him off in 1302, but equally people can fall ill at several points in their lives, and not die until years later. >> >> > Obviously - that's why I wrote that the case is "a bit stronger" than > implied by "death later that year". > > I don't think you need to teach SGM readers to suck circumstantial eggs. > Actually there are further circumstantial indicators that the letter from Sir John de St John dated at Lochmaben on 27 August authorising Sir Ralph de Manton to stand in for him at Roxburgh was written in 1302 rather than in either of the alternative possible years (1300 and 1301) when St John was warden of the Western march. In 1300 Sir Roger de Kirkpatrick was made constable of Lochmaben castle from 8 July to 19 November while Sir John de St John was absent with the king's army, 'post recessum ejusdem domini Johannis de eisdem partibus ad exercitum regis ... ab 8 die Julii usque 19 diem Novembr[is]', see *Liber quotidianum contrarotulorum garderobae* (London, 1787) p. 140, https://archive.org/stream/liberquotidianu00tophgoog#page/n218/mode/2up. In 1301 on 27 August Sir John wrote to Sir Ralph de Manton asking him to pay 'the money in arrear to him at Pentecost last, and also the money he should have up to All Saints ... Written at Loughm[aben], the 27th day of August', see *Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland* vol. ii p. 309 no. 1218, https://archive.org/stream/cu31924091754394#page/n375/mode/2up. Of course we do not need to be told that it is possible to write two letters on different matters to the same person on the same day without cross-referencing, but what are the odds of this as well as that Sir John fell ill for a second time almost exactly year later? Peter Stewart

Dear Newsgroup ~ In my previous post, I reported that Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 12 (sub Gorges) stated that Elizabeth, widow of Ralph de Gorges [the younger], 2nd Lord Gorges, was "living in 1356/7." This was a typo on my part. Actually Complete Peerage states Elizabeth, widow of Ralph de Gorges, was living in 1346/7, not 1356/7. Complete Peerage's source for this statement is VCH Hampshire 5 (1912): 183. The VCH Hampshire reference in question is a discussion of the history of the Gorges family manor of Knighton (in Newchurch), Hampshire. It may be read at the following weblink: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol5/pp177-187 VCH Hampshire says the following: "The manor [of Knighton] seems to have reverted to Ralph de Gorges before 1316. Ralph (afterwards Sir Ralph) and his wife Eleanor had one son Ralph, who died without issue, evidently before 1330–1, when Sir Ralph settled the manor in tail-male on two younger sons of his daughter Eleanor, who had married Theobald Russell of Yaverland. William, the elder of the two, died without issue and the manor was delivered to his brother Theobald Russell in 1343. He appears thereupon to have assumed the name de Gorges, and as Theobald de Gorges was sued in 1346–7 by Elizabeth widow of Ralph de Gorges the younger for the manor. Judgement was given in Elizabeth's favour, but as she had no issue by Ralph the manor reverted to Theobald, who was in possession in 1362." END OF QUOTE. Several errors are made in the VCH Hampshire account. First, the author states that Ralph de Gorges junior "evidently" died "before 1330-1." This is wrong. My research indicates the younger Ralph de Gorges [husband of Elizabeth] and Walter Waleys, parson of Horsington, Somerset, acknowledged in 1334 that they owed William de Cheygne [Cheyne] a debt of 920 marks; to be levied in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. Somerset. [Reference: Cal. Close Rolls, 1333–1337 (1898): 331]. The same year the younger Ralph de Gorges was a party to the marriage settlement of his sister, Joan [Reference: Cal. Close Rolls, 1333–1337 (1898): 332]. As I showed in my last post, the younger Ralph de Gorges died before Easter term 1342. The next error in the VCH account is the statement that it was the senior Ralph de Gorges (husband of Eleanor) who in 1330-1 settled the manor of Knighton, Hampshire in tail-male on two younger sons of his daughter Eleanor, who had married Theobald Russell of Yaverland. A full abstract of this fine is found on Chris Phillips' great website, Some Notes on Medieval English Genealogy [see copy below]. The fine is dated 6 October 1330, not 1330-1 as stated by VCH Hampshire. The fine settled the manor of Knighton, Hampshire on the younger Ralph de Gorges and his male heirs, and, in default of such iasue, the manor was to revert in succession to Ralph's nephews, William, Thebaud, John, and Richard Russell, and their respective male hairs. Elizabeth, wife of the younger Ralph de Gorges, put in her claim. Sir Ralph de Gorges, Senior (husband of Eleanor) was in no way connected with this fine as he died back in 1323. His widow, Eleanor, married (2nd) before 1326 John Pecche, Knt., Lord Pecche. Eleanor and John Pecche are specifically named in the 1330 fine. Finally VCH Hampshire states that there was a lawsuit in 1346–7, by Elizabeth, widow of Ralph de Gorges, junior, against her late husband's nephew, Thebaud Russell, who adopted the Gorges surname. The lawsuit in question is actually dated Hilary term 1346 and is found in the Common Pleas. It confirms that Elizabeth, widow of Ralph de Gorges, junior sued Thebaud de Gorges in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Knighton, Hampshire [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/345, image 112f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no345/aCP40no345fronts/IMG_0112.htm)]. This lawsuit corrects Complete Peerage's statement that Elizabeth, widow of Ralph de Gorges, the younger, was living in 1346/7. The lawsuit proves that she was actually living in Hilary term 1346. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + + Source: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_286_36.shtml#66 Reference: CP 25/1/286/36, number 66. Counties: Devon. Hampshire. Dorset. Lincolnshire. Place: Westminster. Date: One week from St Michael, 4 Edward III [6 October 1330]. Parties: Walter Waleys, querent, and Ralph de Gorges, deforciant. Property: 3 messuages, 2 carucates of land and 100 shillings of rent in Braunton' by Barnestaple in the county of Devon and the manor of Knyghtteton' and 4 messuages in Shaldeflete and the advowsons of the church of the vill of Shaldeflete and the chapel of the aforesaid manor in the county of Southampton and the manors of Lutton' and Bradepol and the hundreds of la Redehone and Bemestre and 4 messuages, 3 carucates of land and 10 pounds of rent in Sturministr', Combe, Kentecombe and Brideport and the advowsons of the churches of the manor of Lutton' and the vill of Brideport and the vicarage of the vill of Sturministr' in the county of Dorset and the manor of Totele and the advowson of the church of the same manor in the county of Lincoln. Action: Plea of covenant. Agreement: Ralph has acknowledged the manors, hundreds, tenements and advowsons to be the right of Walter, of which Walter has 2 parts of 3 messuages, of 2 carucates of land and of 100 shillings of rent in the vill of Braunton' and 2 parts of the manor of Knyghtteton' and the advowson of the chapel of the manor of Knyghtteton' of his gift. For this: Walter has granted to Ralph the same 2 parts and advowson and has rendered them to him in the court, to hold to Ralph and the male heirs of his body, of the chief lords for ever. And besides Walter granted for himself and his heirs that the third part of 3 messuages, of 2 carucates of land and of 100 shillings of rent in the vill of Braunton' and the third part of the manor of Knyghtteton' - which John Pecche and Eleanor, his wife, held in dower of Eleanor - and also that the manors of Lutton', Bradepol and Totele and the hundreds and all the other tenements and advowsons - which the aforesaid John and Eleanor held for the life of Eleanor - of the inheritance of Walter in the aforesaid vills on the day the agreement was made, and which after the decease of Eleanor ought to revert to Walter and his heirs - after the decease of Eleanor shall remain to Ralph and his aforesaid heirs, to hold together with the aforesaid 2 parts and advowson of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to William, son of Theobald Russel, and the male heirs of his body, (2) to Theobald, brother of the same William, and the male heirs of his body, (3) to John, brother of the same Theobald, and the male heirs of his body, (4) to Richard, brother of the same John, and the male heirs of his body and (5) to the right heirs of Ralph. Note: [Endorsed: Elizabeth, the wife of Ralph de Gorges, puts in her claim.] Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.) Persons: Walter Wales, Ralph de Gorges, John Pecche, Eleanor Pecche, Theobald Russell, William Russell, John Russell, Richard Russell, Elizabeth de Gorges Places: Braunton, Barnstaple, Knighton (in Newchurch), Shalfleet, Litton Cheney, Bradpole, Redhone, Beaminster, Sturminster, Combe (in Rampisham), Kingcombe (in Toller Porcorum), Bridport, Tothill

Dear List It seems a good idea to add the sourcing from Clarence-Smith's footnotes: 1. For the death 1210, he cites the Pipe Rolls, PRS 26 NS, p.35 2. For the information at the death of Philip Basset, IPM 56 H3, Calendar I, No. 807, p.273 Going beyond the quotation I already passed, Clarence-Smith points out that Heloise may have been named after her grandmother, and that the IPM shows she pre-deceased Philip. In a footnote he also mentions that there is a charter by the Prioress of Wix to the lord Philip Basset and Helewisia his wife (New Monastican IV, p.515, IV). In the context of the running article I read this as more evidence of the link to Ralph de Hastings. Relevant to my post here there is then a long footnote about other theories, which I should now quote in full: "G. W. Watson in the article on Despenser in the Complete Peerage, IV, p.261, says that Sir Hugh Despenser married "Aline, da. & h. of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, Bucks.... by his first wife Wawise, da. of Sir Matthew de Lonavine of Little Easton, Essex," to which is appended a footnote: "She had, in free marriage, the manor of Wix, Essex, by the service of 20s. a year. Some genealogists say that she was da. of John de Grey of Eaton, Bucks." Her fathering on Sir Matthew de Lovaine has no other support than the quite unwarranted assumption that she held Wix in free marriage: in fact she held it by inheritance as the Inquisition specifies, and Sir Matthew was her overlord but not her father." So having noticed this footnote, I suppose this is also a discussion about a potential correction to CP. (I had not noticed this footnote when writing my original post.) Best Regards Andrew On 4/06/2016 14:24, Andrew Lancaster wrote: > > Clarence-Smith then said that: "He was dead by Michaelmas 1210, > leaving a daughter under age whose custody and marriage had been > granted to Alan Bassett for 100 marks. It is not therefore surprising > to find at the death of Sir Philip Basset of Wycombe, younger son of > this Alan, in 1271, that he held under Sir Matthew de Lovaine the > manor of Wix 'by courtesy of England of the inheritance of Helewisia > his wife'." > > Source: Clarence Smith J. A., (1966), "Hastings of Little Easton (part > 1)", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2, Part 1. >

I have read the two articles by Randy West. They do not extend (nor were they intended to) the ancestry of Alice Freeman. The primary focus is to publish the IPM of her father Henry Freeman which helps establishing some dates. He died 5 August 1606; IPM held 14 October 1606; son and heir Thomas Freeman aged 13 years and 2 months; wife Margaret living. The article also publishes the will of her brother Thomas Freeman of Cranford which mentions most all of his relatives including “children of my sister Tompson namely Samuel Nathaniel Mary Bridget Dorothy and Martha,” “to Thomas Tompson my sisters son,” “my kinsman Robert Peake,” “my mother Margaret Freeman” Will dated and proved 14 August and 23 August 1637. It also gives a complete transcript of the will of Alice Freeman’s first husband John Tompson. Previous published copies had been relatively brief abstracts. It also provides the baptisms of Martha and Samuel Tompson missed by the original researchers, and establishes the name of one more previously unrecognized daughter – Margaret Tompson, wife of Robert Peake. The second article: The American Genealogist vol. 87 no. 3 (July/October 2014 - pub. July 2015):204-208. The English Origin of Christopher Peake1 of Roxbury, Massachusetts, by Randy A. West. concerns Robert Peake and his wife Margaret Tompson (previously unknown daughter of Alice Freeman and John Tompson.) Despite a very long English ancestry, I do not think she has a valid royal line before Charlemagne (I haven't actually checked in a while though). Joe On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 10:23:10 AM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote: > Well, has anyone read this piece? > > [Randy A. West, "Alice Freeman, Wife of John Tompson of Preston Capes, > Northamptonshire, and of Robert Parke of Connecticut," The American > Genealogist 87 (Jan/Apr (publ Oct) 2015): 209-217.] > > DSH > > "A vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille > [1606-1684] > > wrote in message > news:5692bbfe-e278-48a0-9d8b-63e36012925c@googlegroups.com... > > I've been lurking on and off and wonder if there is anything new on the > ancestry of Alice Freeman of Preston Capes and later New London CT, wife of > John Thompson and later Robert Parke. Seems she had royal lines, then she > didn't, then she did, then she didn't again. > Are any of her lines still valid? > I have the RD600 published in 2004 that takes her back to Ethelred II but in > that same book there's a line from among others John Throckmorton - Eleanor > Spinney that goes back to Louis IV of France. > It appears that Alice Freeman has John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney in her > direct ancestry too, so does the line from her back to Louis IV King of > France work as well? > And if she has any lines that are valid back to royalty, might anyone who > knows what they are doing suggest some reasonably available sources to > document the line? RD600 is great for seeing the whole line, but not so > great when it comes to dates and sources. > Thank you for any direction regarding Alice Freeman's ancestry.