On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:34:03 PM UTC-7, Nathan Murphy wrote: > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:33:26 PM UTC-6, Nathan Murphy wrote: > > > Thanks Leslie, but I was rather hoping that the Sudbury wills may have been generally available online. I see they're online, but are only accessible from an LDS Family History Centre. > > > > > > Robert > > > > I noticed the entire Prerogative/Exchequer Court of York microfilm collection back to 1839 is online now too, but i has that awful Family History Centre restriction > > > > https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/350921 > > > > Nathan > > Back to 1389. It looks like a large part of the Berkshire and Buckinghamshire wills are also available. For some reason, they scanned most of the Lichfield wills, even though they are already available on Findmypast. Leslie

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 7:41:09 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 9/05/2017 10:47 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote: > > <snip> > > (2) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may be the William (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil, signore of Oriolo in Italy, who issued a charter in 1117 with his widowed mother, Countess Mabel, to Cava. References: Il monastero di S. Elia di Carbone e il suo territorio dal Medioevo all'età moderna (1996): 123; Monasteri, principi, aristocrazie: la Trinità di Cava nei secoli XI e XII (2008): 75. > > Where does Cawley state this? Assuming he does, he is up to his usual > standard - the first reference cited specifically states that the year > should be corrected from 1117 to 1113. Cawley says it here: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc479099765 taf

Dear Greg ~ Thank you for your post. You've asked an excellent question. You're correct that there is a pedigree of the Earls of Leicester included in the foundation narrative of Hospital of St. Leonard, Leicester. This material was published by Dugdale many years ago and reads as follows: “Robertus oves les Blanc Meins, Comes Leicestrensis tertius, post conquestum, desponsavit Petronillam filiam Hugonis Grantmenyl, cum qua accepit totum honorem de Hincley unà cum senescatu Angliæ, ex dono ejusdem Hugonis, &c. Hic genuit de dictâ Petronillâ, Robertum dictum filium Petronillæ hæredem; Rogerum, S. Andreæ in Scotiâ episcopum, et Willielmum leprosum, fundatorem hospitalis S. Leonardi Leicestriæ; Amiciam desponsatam Simoni de Monteforti, et Margaretam desponsatam Saiero de Quinci, &c.” Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 6(2) (1846): 686 (ped. of founders of Hospital of St. Leonard, Leicester). We see here that Pernel, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester, is specifically called the daughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil ["filiam Hugonis Grantmenyl"]. The implication is made that she was an heiress, although this is not directly stated. The foundation narrative was the source for the following statement in a well written article on the early Earls of Leicester in the Genealogist n.s. 10 (1893): 1–16. This sentence reads as follows: “[Robert, Earl of Leicester] had married Petronilla, dau. and most probably sole heiress of Hugh de Grentemesnil. It is said that she was heiress of Hinckley, and that to this manor was attached the Stewardship of England.”). You're correct that Countess Pernel issued a charter to the Abbey of Saint Evroul, which charter was granted for her soul, and for the souls of William her father and all her ancestors. This charter was first noticed by the historian, David Crouch, in his book, Beaumont Twins (1986): 91. If I understand the Latin of this charter correctly, Countess Pernel also confirmed the previous gifts to Saint Evroul of her great-grandfather ["pro avi"], Hugh de Grantemesnil [Reference: Cartulaire de l’Abbaye de Saint-Evroul, dioc. de Lisieux, Latin 11055, fol. 33v–35v.]. The surname of Pernel's father is not given in this record, and it has been assumed that he was a male member of the Grandmesnil family. While I think this is probably a correct assumption, this may or may not be right. The noted medieval historian Mr. Round saw the original of another charter issued by the same countess to the same abbey, which charter had a fragment of a seal still attached to it [see transcript below]. He states that this charter was granted for the "weal" of the Countess' soul and "those of all her predecessors and successors." No mention is made of her father being named William in this record, nor is there any mention of her great-grandfather, Hugh de Grandmesnil. This charter was presumably issued about the same time as the other charter, as both are witnessed by her chaplains, Gregory and William, and William de Seneville. Insofar as the names of Countess Pernel's parents are concerned, this is a matter of ongoing research. Keats-Rohan, Domesday People I (1999): 263 states that Pernel de Grandmesnil’s father, William, was the son of Robert de Grandmesnil by Emma d’Estouteville, but no evidence is cited for this relationship. Charles Cawley in his online Medlands database states that inasmuch as Countess Pernel brought the honour of Grantmesnil in Normandy to her husband, her father, William/Guillaume, "must have been senior heir of the Grantmesnil family." That is likely correct, but it deserves further study. Having said that, Mr. Cawley has suggested three different possibilities for the identification of Countess Pernel's father William and his place in the Grandmesnil family: (1) The ancient necrology of the royal abbey of St. Denys records the deaths “V. Non. October" [3 October] [year not stated] of "Vuillelmus de Grandmesnil & uxore ejus Agatha” (i.e., William/Guillaume de Grandmesnil and his wife, Agatha”) [Reference: Felibien, Histoire de l’Abbaye Royale de Saint-Denys en France (1706): ccxvi]. Cawley suggests that this couple may be the parents of Countess Pernel. (2) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may be the William (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil, signore of Oriolo in Italy, who issued a charter in 1117 with his widowed mother, Countess Mabel, to Cava. References: Il monastero di S. Elia di Carbone e il suo territorio dal Medioevo all'età moderna (1996): 123; Monasteri, principi, aristocrazie: la Trinità di Cava nei secoli XI e XII (2008): 75. (3) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, could have been the grandson of Hugh de Grandmesnil [died 1098] by a younger son or one of his daughters. This statement suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may or may not have been a male member of the Grandmesnil family. What is my take of all of this? I think the charter evidence cited by Mr. Crouch is sufficient to accept that Countess Pernel's father was named William. Whoever this William was, he appears not to have lived in England. My guess is that he may not even have resided in Normandy. As such I'm attracted to Mr. Cawley's Italian alternative (Cawley Theory No. 2 above), but would like to know more about the Grandmesnil family in Italy before proceeding further. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah + + + + + + + + + Reference: Round, Cal. of Documents preserved in France 1 (1899): 228. [N. D.] (Original in archives, H. 900. Fragment of seal. Trans. I. fo. 300.) 651. Charter of Parnel (Petronilla) countess of Leicester. For the weal of her soul and those of all her predecessors and successors, she gives the abbey of St. Evroul and its monks the house (domus) of Charleia with all its appurtenances, etc., and a carucate of land in the vill of Anesty and her “demesne” meadow there and the mill, with its suit and ten “codselli” (fn. 22) of land … with their appurtenances on condition that the prior to be placed there by the abbot shall not be removed from that house so long as he is of honourable and good life. His testibus: Thoma de Estleia; Radulfo de Martinwas; Willelmo Picot; Willelmo de Sennevilla; Symone de Turvilla; Radulfo Fridai; Gregorio capellano; Willelmo capellano Jordano clerico, et multi alii.

"Alexander filius Walteri archidiaconi de Waltham." Walter is the archdeacon. Both words are in the genitive form, indicating they reference the same person, whom Alexander is the son of. The "de Waltham," however, could refer to either: (a) "Alexander (son of Archdeacon Walter) from Waltham" (b) "Alexander, son of Walter (the Archdeacon from Waltham)" Jim+

Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology.

Does anyone know the name of the wife of George Barne/Barnes, son of Sir William Barne and Anne Sandys? I'm checking a claimed line of descent, and that's the point that looks a bit dodgy to me. Thanks in advance! David Teague

One thing we can be pretty surge of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birthdate on 999 would lead to an unbeliavable short chronology

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:16:00 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 8:29:08 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote: > > Richardson, in MCS (2005) 683 has her as the daughter of William, > > appearing to cite Crouch Beaumont Twins (1986) 91 and Keats-Rohan > > DP (1999) 263. In RA (2013) 3:559 he has her as the daughter of > > Hugh, appearing to cite Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum. > > So, unless Douglas weighs in with his rationale for changing the > identity of Pernel's father, Crouch's evidence should prevail and > her father is William and not Hugh. I wouldn't give this difference too much weight. It probably represents nothing more than a failure to keep one of his titles up to date with information already in the other. Dugdale's Monasticon has been around for a long time, and there is no reason to think that Mr. Richardson discovered something new within it that would cause him to reject the clear testimony of a contemporary charter. Does he give a volume and page for Dugdale? Did you look to see what Dugdale says there? taf

Maybe someone with real Latin can help here. We were just discussing the family of "Walter the Deacon", the Hastings family of the Barony of Little Easton in Essex. I just noticed this charter: http://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/00180172/alexander%20waltham "Alexander filius Walteri archidiaconi de Waltham." (Not sure if the word francigene belongs with Alexander. Not sure if it is Walter or Alexander who is Archdeacon.) Given that we know of an Alexander son of Walter who was known as Alexander de Waham (possibly Waltham), could this explain what Walter, founder of this family, was deacon of?

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 8:29:08 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote: > Greetings, > > Is there a consensus as to the parentage of Pernel de Grandmesnil, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester? Seems to me this is somewhat important given her descent from Hugh, both a Domesday holder and Companion to the Conqueror. Or perhaps not. But here's what I've found: > > Richardson, in MCS (2005) 683 has her as the daughter of William, appearing to cite Crouch Beaumont Twins (1986) 91 and Keats-Rohan DP (1999) 263. In RA (2013) 3:559 he has her as the daughter of Hugh, appearing to cite Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum. > > Crouch in Beaumont Twins 91n calls her a daughter of William, citing “a charter of hers to St Evroult commemorates him by name, Ctl St-Evroult, ii fol 33v” (in Bibliothèque Nationale). Crouch mentions a suggestion in CP 7:533n that she was the daughter of Hugh, but his conclusion was that her charter overruled that suggestion. > > CP 7:533n cites “the foundation narrative of Leicester Abbey,” which appears to me to be secondary to Pernel’s own charter naming her father as William. > > Keats-Rohan, DP 263, holds with Crouch, and further cites Rounds, Calendar of Documents in France 653. > > Young, Blackmans of Knight’s Creek (1980) 106, cites a pedigree chart at CP 7:520 and calls her the heir of Grand-Mesnil in Calvados, but does not pursue her ancestry. > > I’m not so sure she would have been heiress to those lands: Ivo, son of Hugh, the Companion and Domesday holder, lost his English fief to Robert, 1st earl of Leicester (DP 233). Though they were Pernel’s ancestral homeland, it seems title to them came through her husband who had inherited them. They were subsequently was awarded to her son-in-law, Saher de Quincy and not Pernel (RA 3:559) likely by right of his wife, Margaret, by virtue of her descent from her father Robert, not her mother, Pernel. > > Thoughts, anyone? > > Thanks > > Greg Cooke So, unless Douglas weighs in with his rationale for changing the identity of Pernel's father, Crouch's evidence should prevail and her father is William and not Hugh. Thanks Greg

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 11:00:40 AM UTC-7, Chris Hampson wrote: > For the record, Cecilia (Ciceley) then married Rowland Barker in 1588 and made her will in 1612. It contains no evidence for any descendants, but plenty of other relatives. I am suspicious of the details as to the year in which Ciceley married Rowland. Can you provide a source for claiming it was in 1588?

Back in 1928 Professor Tout in his seminal work on 'The Wardrobe, The Chamber And The Small Seals', printed an outline tree showing the connection between the family of John Thoresby, archbishop of York, and the family of John Waltham, bishop of Salisbury. This outline tree was admittedly conjectural, but after much research and a sharing of notes with Professor Thompson. Has this connection ever been revisited? Can anyone shed any light on who the unnamed sister of John Thoresby was, who married an unnamed grandfather of John Waltham? The tree can be seen here: https://archive.org/stream/chaptersinadmini03toutuoft#page/216/mode/2up Thanks for any inputs, Wibs

On 7/05/2017 12:29 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Greetings, > > Is there a consensus as to the parentage of Pernel de Grandmesnil, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester? Seems to me this is somewhat important given her descent from Hugh, both a Domesday holder and Companion to the Conqueror. Or perhaps not. But here's what I've found: > > Richardson, in MCS (2005) 683 has her as the daughter of William, appearing to cite Crouch Beaumont Twins (1986) 91 and Keats-Rohan DP (1999) 263. In RA (2013) 3:559 he has her as the daughter of Hugh, appearing to cite Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum. > > Crouch in Beaumont Twins 91n calls her a daughter of William, citing “a charter of hers to St Evroult commemorates him by name, Ctl St-Evroult, ii fol 33v” (in Bibliothèque Nationale). Crouch mentions a suggestion in CP 7:533n that she was the daughter of Hugh, but his conclusion was that her charter overruled that suggestion. > > CP 7:533n cites “the foundation narrative of Leicester Abbey,” which appears to me to be secondary to Pernel’s own charter naming her father as William. > > Keats-Rohan, DP 263, holds with Crouch, and further cites Rounds, Calendar of Documents in France 653. > > Young, Blackmans of Knight’s Creek (1980) 106, cites a pedigree chart at CP 7:520 and calls her the heir of Grand-Mesnil in Calvados, but does not pursue her ancestry. > > I’m not so sure she would have been heiress to those lands: Ivo, son of Hugh, the Companion and Domesday holder, lost his English fief to Robert, 1st earl of Leicester (DP 233). Though they were Pernel’s ancestral homeland, it seems title to them came through her husband who had inherited them. They were subsequently was awarded to her son-in-law, Saher de Quincy and not Pernel (RA 3:559) likely by right of his wife, Margaret, by virtue of her descent from her father Robert, not her mother, Pernel. > > Thoughts, anyone? > The circumstances were a bit more complicated. Ivo was a younger son of Pernel's great-grandfather Hugo of Grandmesnil, who was castellan of Leicester. Ivo became castellan, but not seigneur of Grandmesnil (this was inherited by his eldest brother Robert, presumably Pernel's grandfather). Ivo was ruined in 1101 after supporting Robert Curtheuse against Henry I, and he pledged his lands to Robert de Beaumont, 1st earl of Leicester (grandfather of Pernel's husband), for fifteen years, when his son and heir Ivo was to be married to the earl's niece (a daughter of Henry of Newburgh, earl of Warwick) and regain the inheritance. However, this agreement was not honoured. The younger Ivo and his brother Hugo were both drowned in the White ship in 1120. Pernel's father William may have been the man recorded with his wife Agatha under 3 October in the 13th-century obituary of Saint-Denis ("Willelmus de Grandmesnil et uxor ejus Agatha"), see https://archive.org/stream/recueildeshistor01acaduoft#page/327/mode/1up. Peter Stewart

On 7/05/2017 12:29 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Greetings, > > Is there a consensus as to the parentage of Pernel de Grandmesnil, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester? Seems to me this is somewhat important given her descent from Hugh, both a Domesday holder and Companion to the Conqueror. Or perhaps not. But here's what I've found: > > Richardson, in MCS (2005) 683 has her as the daughter of William, appearing to cite Crouch Beaumont Twins (1986) 91 and Keats-Rohan DP (1999) 263. In RA (2013) 3:559 he has her as the daughter of Hugh, appearing to cite Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum. > > Crouch in Beaumont Twins 91n calls her a daughter of William, citing “a charter of hers to St Evroult commemorates him by name, Ctl St-Evroult, ii fol 33v” (in Bibliothèque Nationale). Crouch mentions a suggestion in CP 7:533n that she was the daughter of Hugh, but his conclusion was that her charter overruled that suggestion. You can see the Saint-Evroul cartulary copy of her charter here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9066843b/f36.image fol 33v no. 33 (expanding abbreviations): "Petronilla Comitissa Legrecestrie ... pro salute anime mee necnon et Willelmi patris mei" Peter Stewart

Thank you Jan for your letter. I agree with Peter, be careful with the Loockermans those early generations are tricky and I have not tried to untangle them all. My article will answer your questions. Although the Sisters were of royal descent and had cousins who were no doubt wealthy -- those people then as often today did not hand out money to all their distant relatives. The sisters were most likely orphans when they married in Amsterdam and then came to America. Their father died in 1624 and after his widow Helen Livingston tried desperately to find money to support her family. The sisters were very lucky indeed to marry the merchants they did and not end up penniless spinsters as many women in their predicament surely did. Reformation ministers tended not to be wealthy although their grandfather Rev. John Duncanson did appear to make money acting as a kind of private banker lending money at interest -- he even lent money to their great grandfather Henry Livingston of Falkirk and his second wife Margaret Forrester -- all this detailed in my article. Adrian

Since I see you are connected to the TenBroecks you are a Loockermans descendant. I highly recommend you and others related to the Loockermans read Willem Frijhoff's article "Govert Loockermans And His Relatives" https://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/files/7114/5506/8078/Loockermans_narrative_and_genealogy_revised_version_January_7_2016.pdf In particular he, with help from myself, straightened out the confusion between Pieter Loockermans The Elder and Pieter Loockermans The Younger. Many people, including myself initially, thought that they were father and son. In reality they were uncle (The Elder) and nephew (The Younger). The Elder was married to once of the Duncanson sisters.

On Saturday, January 12, 2013 at 4:30:52 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: > My article “The Livingston Ancestry of the Duncanson Sisters of New Netherland”, is the result of nearly five years of research partially co-financed by “The Duncanson/Livingston Project”, founded by the author and including Anthony Glenn Hoskins, Joseph V.R. V.E. Laux, and John Camp—all descendants of the Duncanson sisters. > > It is being serialized in THE GENEALOGIST, with part I appearing this April, part II this Fall, and part III in Spring 2014. For subscription information, please visit The American Society of Genealogists’ website: www.fasg.org > > The starting point for this project was an article by Gordon L. Remington, FASG, who identified the parentage of four Duncanson women in an article published in the RECORD in 1997. The Duncanson sisters were daughters of Mr James Duncanson, Minister of Alloa, Clackmannanshire, Scotland, and his wife Helen Livingston. Mr James was the eldest son and heir of Rev. John Duncanson, Minister to James VI. Mr James’s daughter Katherine arrived in New Amsterdam (New York City) in 1639 followed by three of her older sisters. (It is conceivable that some of their other siblings also immigrated but there is no evidence of this. I did discover an elder brother—not included in Remington’s article—who almost certainly lived in England.) > > Part I identifies Helen Livingston’s parentage and traces her Livingston ancestry for several generations, and includes her siblings and Livingston aunts and uncles. > > Part II examines in detail Helen’s legitimate descent from Robert III, King of Scots (d. 1406). The noted Scottish genealogist Andrew B.W. MacEwen of Stockton Springs, Maine, contributed several references. His analysis of key evidence bolstered aspects of the royal descent and corrected some errors that have appeared in print over the years. From this one royal line alone the vast number of descendants of the Duncanson sisters in America can claim a broad swath of British and continental European medieval ancestry. Much of this ancestry can be traced on Leo van de Pas’s site www.genealogics.org. > > Part III identifies Helen Livingston’s mother based on contemporary documents I obtained in England. I trace Helen’s maternal grandfather’s male line back through several generations of prosperous merchant burgesses of Edinburgh to the late 1400s. I also uncovered an unusually close network of servants to Mary, Queen of Scots, and her son James VI (later King of England) which included Helen’s mother, maternal grandmother and several other close relatives. The unique relationship between Helen’s mother and King James I of England is the likely reason why Helen twice received royal favor from King James and his son Charles I. > > Helen’s children appear to have been plucky and resourceful like their mother—Helen’s daughter Katherine Duncanson became a successful trader after the death of her husband Hon. Alexander Glen. And Katherine and Alexander Glen’s children founded large and prosperous families near Schenectady, New York. The mansion house built on the Glen plantation named “Nova Scotia” (Scotia, New York) survives to this day as the Glen-Sanders Mansion hotel and restaurant. I stayed at the mansion for several days and finished writing the first draft of my monograph in one of the upper rooms of the restored home (now used for corporate events and weddings). > > I published a notice of this project in FOUNDATIONS last year that mentioned the fact that Helen Livingston also descends from John Napier, 3rd Laird of Merchiston, and his wife Elizabeth Menteith of Rusky, senior co-heir general to the ancient Gaelic earldom of Lennox. This can be found online by subscription at www.fmg.ac. > > Many talented genealogists have provided assistance: Tony Hoskins, Janet Wolfe, John Blythe Dobson, FASG, and Andrew B.W. MacEwen. My editor Col. Charles Hansen, FASG, has worked tirelessly in preparing the lengthy manuscript and shown great patience over the past two years dealing with changes, additions, and corrections. > > I hope this project will promote greater interest not only in the Duncanson family but in other colonial New York families whose ancestries have not been studied in detail. > > ADRIAN BENJAMIN BURKE, JD, Bar of New York > NEW YORK CITY Dear Adrian, Thank you so very much for all you have done to discover and bring to light this exciting information about the Duncanson Sisters. I have just ordered my copy of the Genealogist and perhaps it will contain the answer to my question. I am very interested to know what prompted these sisters to immigrate to New Amsterdam in the first place..Surely with their royal connections, they would have been able to marry well in Scotland. Did they sail from Scotland or from Amsterdam, Holland? I am grateful to you for my royal roots. The process of discovering them, however, was the best part of the journey. I hope to hear from you soon, Jane TenBroeck Wilner

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 1:45:34 PM UTC+2, John Watson wrote: > You have obviously done a great deal of research into the early Hastings families, so I would like to ask you a question. In your opinion, are William fitz Robert de Hastings and William de Hastings, king's dispenser and steward of Bury St. Edmunds, the same person? No I think they are definitely different. Different parents, different spouses/widows, different heirs, died at different times, owned different things. Regards Andrew

On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 7:29:08 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > Crouch in Beaumont Twins 91n calls her a daughter of William, citing “a > charter of hers to St Evroult commemorates him by name, Ctl St-Evroult, ii > fol 33v” (in Bibliothèque Nationale). Crouch mentions a suggestion in CP > 7:533n that she was the daughter of Hugh, but his conclusion was that her > charter overruled that suggestion. > > CP 7:533n cites “the foundation narrative of Leicester Abbey,” which appears > to me to be secondary to Pernel’s own charter naming her father as William. While charters can be forged, mistranscribed/translated or contain scribal errors, unless you have reason to think one of these is the case, then you have to give priority to the contemporary record over anything written later. taf

Greetings, Is there a consensus as to the parentage of Pernel de Grandmesnil, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester? Seems to me this is somewhat important given her descent from Hugh, both a Domesday holder and Companion to the Conqueror. Or perhaps not. But here's what I've found: Richardson, in MCS (2005) 683 has her as the daughter of William, appearing to cite Crouch Beaumont Twins (1986) 91 and Keats-Rohan DP (1999) 263. In RA (2013) 3:559 he has her as the daughter of Hugh, appearing to cite Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum. Crouch in Beaumont Twins 91n calls her a daughter of William, citing “a charter of hers to St Evroult commemorates him by name, Ctl St-Evroult, ii fol 33v” (in Bibliothèque Nationale). Crouch mentions a suggestion in CP 7:533n that she was the daughter of Hugh, but his conclusion was that her charter overruled that suggestion. CP 7:533n cites “the foundation narrative of Leicester Abbey,” which appears to me to be secondary to Pernel’s own charter naming her father as William. Keats-Rohan, DP 263, holds with Crouch, and further cites Rounds, Calendar of Documents in France 653. Young, Blackmans of Knight’s Creek (1980) 106, cites a pedigree chart at CP 7:520 and calls her the heir of Grand-Mesnil in Calvados, but does not pursue her ancestry. I’m not so sure she would have been heiress to those lands: Ivo, son of Hugh, the Companion and Domesday holder, lost his English fief to Robert, 1st earl of Leicester (DP 233). Though they were Pernel’s ancestral homeland, it seems title to them came through her husband who had inherited them. They were subsequently was awarded to her son-in-law, Saher de Quincy and not Pernel (RA 3:559) likely by right of his wife, Margaret, by virtue of her descent from her father Robert, not her mother, Pernel. Thoughts, anyone? Thanks Greg Cooke