On 9/05/2017 5:22 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: <snip> > > If Robert had a niece then he would have usurped her rights to her > father's inheritance in Calabria. As the son of a disgraced man, who > had gone from Normandy to Italy long before, he would hardly have > presented himself in England much less with a niece in tow who was > supposed to be his dead brother's heiress despite his own earlier > conduct. > > And as I mentioned before, there is no evidence whatsoever that his > brother William ever married. As a grandson of Robert Guiscard, we > would certainly expect to find some record of it if he survived long > enough to have offspring. We would also expect to find some trace of > Pernel's very grand relatives in Italy. If Pernel had been a daughter of the Calabrian William, she must have been somewhat older than the known chronology indicates. She first occurs as wife of Robert son of the earl of Leicester in a charter dated by Round to ca 1155/59, and the lives of her children suggest that she had probably not been married long before this. But William was evidently dead by June 1127, when his younger brother Robert was described as one of the counts in Calabria at the siege of Omignano: it is highly unlikely that Pernel was not married to Robert until she was around 30 years old. It is equally unlikely that Robert would have encumbered himself with an inconvenient niece when he left Italy afterwards. Peter Stewart

The minimum marriage age for girls by medieval Canon law was 12 years with the restriction that the girl in question reached puberty. If Gisela was 14/15 at the time of her first marriage and being born at the end of the '80, a first marriage ca.1002 is not troublesome, being the year of the latest known mentioning of count Bruno. As Peter remarked, the remarriage end 1004 was a conclusion based on an inauthentic charter. It need not be that early. When in 1015 duke Ernst I died his eldest son was still a minor. Eduard Hlawitschka assumes that Ernst and Gisela married around 1009 as in his opinion their eldest son Ernst II was born 1009/1010. Ernst II appears firstly in 1025. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/ernst_1_herzog_von_schwaben_1015_babenberger/hlawitschka.html If we accept a birth year < Jan. 992 for brother Hermann III. His eldest sister (he had 3) could easily have been born ca.988. That would make her 14 years in 1002. Hans Vogels > > It seems very unlikely that she was already married with her econd husband Ernest in 1004 since she would only have 14-15 years old she probably only married in 1009 or so.

Rev. William and Katherine Craighead Homes of Martha's Vineyard had a quite numerous progeny, with at least the following descendants (or spouses) covered in entries in the _Dictionary of American Biography_. Henry Augustus Homes Arthur Tappan Benjamin Tappan Eli Todd Tappan John Henry Wright Lewis Tappan Henry Chandler Bowen David Tappan Stoddard Rufus Wilmot Griswold (the "frenemy" and literary executor of E.A. Poe) William McCrillis Griswold Additionally, I think the wife of Henry Varnum Poor, of the family behind Standard & Poors, was a descendant.

On 9/05/2017 3:41 PM, Douglas Richardson wrote: > Dear Greg ~ > > There is a long and interesting Wikipedia article on the Grandmesnil family found at the following weblink: > > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_de_Grandmesnil > > Scribla: la fin d'un château d'origine normande en Calabre (2010) by Anne-Marie Flambard Héricher includes two references to a later charter of Mabilia, wife of Guillaume (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil: > > pg. 8 "En outre, dans une charte de l'abbaye Santa Maria della Mattina datant de la fin de l'année 1128 ou du début 1129, Mabille, veuve de Guillaume de Grandmesnil, fait don au monastère de deux terres situées «in tenimento Sagicte» dont la charte precise les limites ..." > > pg. 23. En 1130, c'est Mabilla, veuve de Guillaume de Grandmesnil, qui fait don à l'abbaye Santa Maria della Mattina de terres qu'elle possède dans le tenement "Sajetta." On y trouble pour la première fois la mention d'une dédicace à saint Antoine: via que descendit apud Sanctum Antonium de Stribula. Il est possible qu'un oratoire, ou une chapelle, voire une église dédiée à ce saint, a été édifié ..." > > Elsewhere I find that Pratesi, Carte latine di abbazie calabresi provenienti dall'archivio Aldobrandini (1958): 34 refers to the same charter: > > "Mabilia contessa, vedova di Guglielmo di Grantmesnil, dona per l'anima sua e dei parenti, vivi e defunti, all'abbazia di S. Maria della Matina due terre nella tenuta Sajetta." > > Mazza, Castrovillari: storia, cultura, economia (2003): 48-49 provides more specific information regarding the elder Guillaume de Grandmesnil (died 1108/14), signore of Castrovillari, and his wife, Countess Mabilia (living 1132). Mazza's discussion include mention of their sons, Guillaume/Guglielmo and Roger [recte Robert]. > > "Bandita la prima crociata, Guglielmo di Grantmesnil si schierò nel contingente imperiale insieme con i fratelli Ivo ed Alberico, che nel 1096 lo avevano raggiunto a Costantinopoli. Come nota Olderico Vitale, Guglielmo non eccelse per valore se, durante l'assedio di Antiochia da parte dei Turchi, si diede alla fuga, calandosi dalle mura insieme con altri nobili, che per tale gesto furono qualificati "furtivi fanaboli." E Pasquale II non esitò a comminargli la scomunica nel 1100. Quando sia tornato in Calabria insieme con la famiglia è difficile stabilirlo, dato il silenzio delle fonti a tale proposito, ma la censura papale dovette probabilmente escluderlo da una gestione diretta di quelle terre che Mabilia aveva portato in dote e delle quali, Castrovillari inclusa, continuava ad essere domina. E tale rimase dopo la morte del marito, avvenuta tra il 1108 e il 1114. In una carta del 1130 con la quale si confermavano al monastero benedettino di Santa Maria della Matina alcune terre nel territorio di Castrovillari, Mabilia appose la firma dichiarandosi "comitissa." Ma, nel ricordare contestualmente di essere stata moglie "quondam Guillelmi protoplaustro de Gratamanilla", non fa riferimento ad una funzione comitale del marito, del quale ricorda solo il titolo imperiale ricoperto. Che Mabilia sia stata, perciò, contessa di Castrovillari risulta altresì confermato da un'ingiunizione con la quale nel 1234 Matteo Marchafaba, funzionario della dogana imperiale di Federico II, ordinò ai procuratori del demanio di Castrovillari di non molestare il monastero della Matina essendo tale proprietà concessa appunto dala figlia del Guiscardo. In altri documenti, come una donazione del 1122 al monastero di Santa Maria del Patire, tra Rossano et Corigliano, Mabilia ricorda di essere filia "felicissimi Roberti Viscardi", sottoscrivendo insieme con il figlio Guglielmo, che si qualifica appunto semplicemente come suo figlio. Di Mabilia non si hanno più notizie dopo il 1132. La tradizione erudita locale pone ! al 1129 un tentativo di ribellione posto in atto da parte del figlio Ruggero di Grantmesnil, fratello minore di Guglielmo, stroncato dai fedili de Ruggero II. Vero è che alle morta di Mabilia Castrovillari venne assorbita nel demanio regio insieme con le altre località ad essa soggette, e tale rimase sino agli inizi dell'Età moderna." > > The above indicates that Guillaume/Guglielmo, the son of Countess Mabilia, was living in 1122. Mazza explains that his brother "Roger" [recte Robert] de Grandmesnil rebelled in 1129. The Wikipedia article adds that Robert subsequently abandoned his Italian fiefdoms and left southern Italy to join his family "beyond the Alps" (probably in Normandy). If Robert de Grandmesnil had a niece, Pernel, I assume she would have been brought to Normandy at that time, and thus brought into the orbit of the Earls of Leicester. Eventually as heiress of the large Grandmesnil honour in Normandy, she would have proved an attractive bride for young Robert de Bréteuil, future Earl of Leicester. You can't do history by Google Books snippets, or genealogy by ignoring any posts that don't reflect well on your own. If Robert had a niece then he would have usurped her rights to her father's inheritance in Calabria. As the son of a disgraced man, who had gone from Normandy to Italy long before, he would hardly have presented himself in England much less with a niece in tow who was supposed to be his dead brother's heiress despite his own earlier conduct. And as I mentioned before, there is no evidence whatsoever that his brother William ever married. As a grandson of Robert Guiscard, we would certainly expect to find some record of it if he survived long enough to have offspring. We would also expect to find some trace of Pernel's very grand relatives in Italy. And by the way, the dating of the last known charter of Robert's mother, Guiscard's daughter Mabilia, to 1132 is dubious - the year AM corresponds to 1128, the indiction to 1132 (the charter must be a forgery if the year is correct, though I doubt that it is). She evidently called herself 'countess' as the widow of a Byzantine protosebastos - her husband William held that rank according to her, and had held office as domestikos in Constantinople according to another source. She did not use the title countess in all her extant charters. Peter Stewart

On 9/05/2017 3:40 PM, Hans Vogels wrote: > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: >> On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>> Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. >>> >> I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of >> circumstantial evidence. >> >> Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before >> November 1014, > Would logic not suggest that Gisela was already a remarried widow at the time. That she remarried before or in 1012 with her second husband as he received the duchy of Swabia. > Yes it would - I was not thinking connectedly about this. Hermann of Reichenau explicitly stated that Gisela was married to her brother's successor (her second husband, Ernest of Babenberg), under the year 1012 ("Herimannus quoque iunior dux Alemanniae defunctus, Ernustum, sororis suae Giselae maritum, successorem accepit"). Peter Stewart

In December 2014, there were reports of the rediscovery of a crude gold disc in what is now Poland, near the ancient location of the viking stronghold of Jomsborg. It's history is convoluted and accounts somewhat contradictory - it is said to have formed part of a viking hoard originally found in the crypt of a ruined church in 1841. During WWII the disc fell into the hands of a Polish army officer (I have seen different accounts of how this happened) and the value of the disc not recognized. In 2014, his great-grandchild took the interesting trinket to show her teacher and the rest, as they say, is history (perhaps). The disc has come to be called the 'Curmsun disc'. Why do we care? The disc contains a curious inscription, which if contemporary would be one of the oldest pieces of genealogical evidence regarding viking-era Scandinavia not found on a rune stone. Specifically it reads +ARALD CVRMSVN+ REX AD TAN ER+SCON+J VMN+CIV ALDIN+ Which has been interpreted as: Harald Gormson, King of Danes, Scania, Jomsborg, and Oldenburg (there are various alternative interpretations). There is some dispute as to whether it is authentic or a later forgery, and those in the 'authentic camp' all seem to have a different interpretation of when and why the disc was cast (it is agreed it was cast and not struck). Is anyone aware of any published scholarly analysis of this item? (hopefully not requiring me to learn Polish or Danish to read) The following two Academia.edu deposits appear respectable, but I am intereted in what the broader scholarly community is making of it. https://www.academia.edu/9647410/A_unique_object_from_Harald_Bluetooth_s_time._2015_ https://www.academia.edu/29233334/The_Curmsun_Disc_-_Harald_Bluetooth_s_Golden_Seal See also: http://www.thecurmsundisc.com/ taf

Em terça-feira, 9 de maio de 2017 20:50:29 UTC+1, Hans Vogels escreveu: > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: > > Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. > > Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html > > suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. > > If we accept count Bruno as the first husband of Gisela, he must have died early 1004 at the latest. His son Liudolf could have been born 1003/1004. > > From the other side, nothing is certain of the marriage year of Gisela's parents. It varies from 986 to 988. With a Gisela as their eldest daughter, one can be certain that Gisela's first marriage must be in or around 1002, with Liudolf as her only child with count Bruno. > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > > > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > > > > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > > > circumstantial evidence. > > > > Hermann von Reichenau seems to be the source of the knowledge that duke Hermann II had three daughters and one son. The duke had only daughters and went on a pilgrimage for a son, one that thereafter indeed was born. > > > > That would mean that at least 2 daughters have to be born before the son Hermann III. The son was named parvulus in 1003 when his father died, adhuc puerulus in 1004 and died on 1 April 1012 as a puer/adolescentulus. > > > > Hermann III functioned in 1007 as dux (rechtsfähig) that could mean > > a. he was born no later than January 992 (15 years) or > > b. he was born in/before January 995 (full 12 years). > > > > Paul Friedrich von Stälin, "Geschichte Württembergs", 1882, seite 194. > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012_konradiner/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012.html > > > > From this can be concluded that the two eldest (perhaps all three) sisters were born before 992 (most likely). > > > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > > > November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first > > > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > > > Agatha page. > > > > > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > > > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > > > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > > > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > > > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > > > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > > > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > > > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > > > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > > > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > > > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > > > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > > > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > > > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > > > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > > > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > > > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > > > > > Peter Stewart It seems very unlikely that she was already married with her econd husband Ernest in 1004 since she would only have 14-15 years old she probably only married in 1009 or so.

On 9/05/2017 1:22 PM, taf wrote: > On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 7:41:09 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: >> On 9/05/2017 10:47 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote: >> >> <snip> >>> (2) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may be the William (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil, signore of Oriolo in Italy, who issued a charter in 1117 with his widowed mother, Countess Mabel, to Cava. References: Il monastero di S. Elia di Carbone e il suo territorio dal Medioevo all'età moderna (1996): 123; Monasteri, principi, aristocrazie: la Trinità di Cava nei secoli XI e XII (2008): 75. >> Where does Cawley state this? Assuming he does, he is up to his usual >> standard - the first reference cited specifically states that the year >> should be corrected from 1117 to 1113. > Cawley says it here: > > http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc479099765 > But the sole reference given by Cawley is "Codice Diplomatico Verginiano, Vol. I, 132, (extract in translation only)" - as far as I can see, there is no mention of the two references given in Douglas Richardson's post. The discredit for failing to read the first of these (or even to identify its author, Hubert Houben) seems to belong elsewhere... Peter Stewart

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. If we accept count Bruno as the first husband of Gisela, he must have died early 1004 at the latest. His son Liudolf could have been born 1003/1004. >From the other side, nothing is certain of the marriage year of Gisela's parents. It varies from 986 to 988. With a Gisela as their eldest daughter, one can be certain that Gisela's first marriage must be in or around 1002, with Liudolf as her only child with count Bruno. Hans Vogels > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > > circumstantial evidence. > > Hermann von Reichenau seems to be the source of the knowledge that duke Hermann II had three daughters and one son. The duke had only daughters and went on a pilgrimage for a son, one that thereafter indeed was born. > > That would mean that at least 2 daughters have to be born before the son Hermann III. The son was named parvulus in 1003 when his father died, adhuc puerulus in 1004 and died on 1 April 1012 as a puer/adolescentulus. > > Hermann III functioned in 1007 as dux (rechtsfähig) that could mean > a. he was born no later than January 992 (15 years) or > b. he was born in/before January 995 (full 12 years). > > Paul Friedrich von Stälin, "Geschichte Württembergs", 1882, seite 194. > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012_konradiner/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012.html > > From this can be concluded that the two eldest (perhaps all three) sisters were born before 992 (most likely). > > Hans Vogels > > > > > > > > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > > November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first > > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > > Agatha page. > > > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > > > Peter Stewart

On 9/05/2017 10:47 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote: <snip> > (2) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may be the William (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil, signore of Oriolo in Italy, who issued a charter in 1117 with his widowed mother, Countess Mabel, to Cava. References: Il monastero di S. Elia di Carbone e il suo territorio dal Medioevo all'età moderna (1996): 123; Monasteri, principi, aristocrazie: la Trinità di Cava nei secoli XI e XII (2008): 75. Where does Cawley state this? Assuming he does, he is up to his usual standard - the first reference cited specifically states that the year should be corrected from 1117 to 1113. Peter Stewart

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > circumstantial evidence. Hermann von Reichenau seems to be the source of the knowledge that duke Hermann II had three daughters and one son. The duke had only daughters and went on a pilgrimage for a son, one that thereafter indeed was born. That would mean that at least 2 daughters have to be born before the son Hermann III. The son was named parvulus in 1003 when his father died, adhuc puerulus in 1004 and died on 1 April 1012 as a puer/adolescentulus. Hermann III functioned in 1007 as dux (rechtsfähig) that could mean a. he was born no later than January 992 (15 years) or b. he was born in/before January 995 (full 12 years). Paul Friedrich von Stälin, "Geschichte Württembergs", 1882, seite 194. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012_konradiner/hermann_3_herzog_von_schwaben_1012.html >From this can be concluded that the two eldest (perhaps all three) sisters were born before 992 (most likely). Hans Vogels > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > Agatha page. > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > Peter Stewart

Excellent. So pleased to see that you've finally located definitive proof of this connection! All the best, Kelsey On Tuesday, 9 May 2017 17:04:10 UTC+1, Jan Wolfe wrote: > Document SC11/5/1644/11, held at the Orkney Archives, is the marriage agreement, dated 21 February 1644, for Margaret Heart, daughter of David Heart and Jean Mowat, and James Grahame. The NAS catalog description is here: http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=SC11/5/1644/11 > I recently ordered an image of this document from the Orkney Archives. > > The contract specifies that James Grahame's part of the agreement is to be done by the "advyse of the said Dauid Heart if he sall be on lyff And failyeing of him throw deceas be the advyse of the said [William] Heart his eldest sone and of Mr John Heart Minister his secund sone or ather of thame." > > With this evidence, I think that we can now confidently identify the parents of John Heart as David Heart and Jean Mowat. Jean's mother, Christian Stewart, was a daughter of Earl Robert Stewart of Orkney, and Robert was a son of King James V of Scotland by Euphame Elphinstone. > > John Heart, who received his M.A. at St. Andrews in May, 1637, was ordained at Crail on March 22, 1643. > > Agnes Heart, daughter of John Heart and Agnes Baxter, married Robert Craighead. Their children include colonial immigrants Thomas Craighead, husband of Margaret Wallace, and Katherine Craighead, wife of William Homes. Thomas and William were both Presbyterian ministers. Thomas and Margaret lived in Freetown, Bristol County, Massachusetts, and then in Pennsylvania. Katherine and William lived in Chilmark, Dukes County, Massachusetts (on Martha's Vineyard) where William was the minister from the fall of 1715 until his death in 1746. > > For some of the previous discussion of this topic, see > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2012-05/1337017240 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/fRZWTSsZitE/CpyCm3FfVCMJ > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/q6Q3xHo0oWg/Zpc5IaplG1YJ > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/qPH0BlVAXEs/SdFFkZMwCwAJ > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/qPH0BlVAXEs/gsh20rtICwAJ

Em terça-feira, 9 de maio de 2017 15:22:34 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu: > On 5/8/2017 4:15 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > One thing we can be pretty surge of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birthdate on 999 would lead to an unbeliavable short chronology > > That hasn't stopped everybody from proposing that the 999 date be > accepted. Biologically, the date could be described as "not quite > impossible" and Hans Dobbertin argued in two papers that the date was > correct, using "Annalista Saxo" to claim that Ernst was Gisela's first > husband and Bruno the second. See Hans Dobbertin, "Das > Verwandtschaftsverhältnis der 'schwäbischen' Edlen Ida von Elsdorf zum > Kaiserbruder Ludolf IV. von Braunschweig (+1038) und zu Papst Leo IX. > (+1054)," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 43 (1962): 44-76; and "Neues über > Ida von Elsdorf," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 53 (1972): 49-67. Most > scholars have rejected his arguments, but he has attracted occasional > followers. > > Stewart Baldwin As seen in your Henry II Project Hlawitschka presented a very good series of arguments that show that Gisela must have born before 999 and that Bruno was the first husband.

On 9/05/2017 10:47 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote: > Dear Greg ~ > > Thank you for your post. You've asked an excellent question. > > You're correct that there is a pedigree of the Earls of Leicester included in the foundation narrative of Hospital of St. Leonard, Leicester. This material was published by Dugdale many years ago and reads as follows: > > “Robertus oves les Blanc Meins, Comes Leicestrensis tertius, post conquestum, desponsavit Petronillam filiam Hugonis Grantmenyl, cum qua accepit totum honorem de Hincley unà cum senescatu Angliæ, ex dono ejusdem Hugonis, &c. Hic genuit de dictâ Petronillâ, Robertum dictum filium Petronillæ hæredem; Rogerum, S. Andreæ in Scotiâ episcopum, et Willielmum leprosum, fundatorem hospitalis S. Leonardi Leicestriæ; Amiciam desponsatam Simoni de Monteforti, et Margaretam desponsatam Saiero de Quinci, &c.” Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 6(2) (1846): 686 (ped. of founders of Hospital of St. Leonard, Leicester). > > We see here that Pernel, wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester, is specifically called the daughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil ["filiam Hugonis Grantmenyl"]. The implication is made that she was an heiress, although this is not directly stated. > > The foundation narrative was the source for the following statement in a well written article on the early Earls of Leicester in the Genealogist n.s. 10 (1893): 1–16. This sentence reads as follows: > > “[Robert, Earl of Leicester] had married Petronilla, dau. and most probably sole heiress of Hugh de Grentemesnil. It is said that she was heiress of Hinckley, and that to this manor was attached the Stewardship of England.”). > > You're correct that Countess Pernel issued a charter to the Abbey of Saint Evroul, which charter was granted for her soul, and for the souls of William her father and all her ancestors. This charter was first noticed by the historian, David Crouch, in his book, Beaumont Twins (1986): 91. If I understand the Latin of this charter correctly, Countess Pernel also confirmed the previous gifts to Saint Evroul of her great-grandfather ["pro avi"], Hugh de Grantemesnil [Reference: Cartulaire de l’Abbaye de Saint-Evroul, dioc. de Lisieux, Latin 11055, fol. 33v–35v.]. The surname of Pernel's father is not given in this record, and it has been assumed that he was a male member of the Grandmesnil family. While I think this is probably a correct assumption, this may or may not be right. > > The noted medieval historian Mr. Round saw the original of another charter issued by the same countess to the same abbey, which charter had a fragment of a seal still attached to it [see transcript below]. He states that this charter was granted for the "weal" of the Countess' soul and "those of all her predecessors and successors." No mention is made of her father being named William in this record, nor is there any mention of her great-grandfather, Hugh de Grandmesnil. This charter was presumably issued about the same time as the other charter, as both are witnessed by her chaplains, Gregory and William, and William de Seneville. > > Insofar as the names of Countess Pernel's parents are concerned, this is a matter of ongoing research. Keats-Rohan, Domesday People I (1999): 263 states that Pernel de Grandmesnil’s father, William, was the son of Robert de Grandmesnil by Emma d’Estouteville, but no evidence is cited for this relationship. > > Charles Cawley in his online Medlands database states that inasmuch as Countess Pernel brought the honour of Grantmesnil in Normandy to her husband, her father, William/Guillaume, "must have been senior heir of the Grantmesnil family." > That is likely correct, but it deserves further study. Having said that, Mr. Cawley has suggested three different possibilities for the identification of Countess Pernel's father William and his place in the Grandmesnil family: > > (1) The ancient necrology of the royal abbey of St. Denys records the deaths “V. Non. October" [3 October] [year not stated] of "Vuillelmus de Grandmesnil & uxore ejus Agatha” (i.e., William/Guillaume de Grandmesnil and his wife, Agatha”) [Reference: Felibien, Histoire de l’Abbaye Royale de Saint-Denys en France (1706): ccxvi]. Cawley suggests that this couple may be the parents of Countess Pernel. > > (2) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may be the William (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil, signore of Oriolo in Italy, who issued a charter in 1117 with his widowed mother, Countess Mabel, to Cava. References: Il monastero di S. Elia di Carbone e il suo territorio dal Medioevo all'età moderna (1996): 123; Monasteri, principi, aristocrazie: la Trinità di Cava nei secoli XI e XII (2008): 75. > > (3) Mr. Cawley suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, could have been the grandson of Hugh de Grandmesnil [died 1098] by a younger son or one of his daughters. This statement suggests that Countess Pernel's father, William, may or may not have been a male member of the Grandmesnil family. > > What is my take of all of this? I think the charter evidence cited by Mr. Crouch is sufficient to accept that Countess Pernel's father was named William. Whoever this William was, he appears not to have lived in England. My guess is that he may not even have resided in Normandy. As such I'm attracted to Mr. Cawley's Italian alternative (Cawley Theory No. 2 above), but would like to know more about the Grandmesnil family in Italy before proceeding further. This is a blind alley - the heir of the William of Grandmesnil who occurs in a charter with his mother in 1117 was his younger brother Robert. This William died some time between August 1122 (when he occurs in another charter with his mother) and 1129 (when Robert held the fief of their father, but abandoned it following a dispute with his mother's cousin Roger II). There is no evidence that either of these men ever married. Peter Stewart

On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of circumstantial evidence. Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before November 1014, and her son by him must have been been born in the first few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project Agatha page. Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). Peter Stewart

On 5/8/2017 4:15 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > One thing we can be pretty surge of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birthdate on 999 would lead to an unbeliavable short chronology That hasn't stopped everybody from proposing that the 999 date be accepted. Biologically, the date could be described as "not quite impossible" and Hans Dobbertin argued in two papers that the date was correct, using "Annalista Saxo" to claim that Ernst was Gisela's first husband and Bruno the second. See Hans Dobbertin, "Das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis der 'schwäbischen' Edlen Ida von Elsdorf zum Kaiserbruder Ludolf IV. von Braunschweig (+1038) und zu Papst Leo IX. (+1054)," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 43 (1962): 44-76; and "Neues über Ida von Elsdorf," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 53 (1972): 49-67. Most scholars have rejected his arguments, but he has attracted occasional followers. Stewart Baldwin

Document SC11/5/1644/11, held at the Orkney Archives, is the marriage agreement, dated 21 February 1644, for Margaret Heart, daughter of David Heart and Jean Mowat, and James Grahame. The NAS catalog description is here: http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=SC11/5/1644/11 I recently ordered an image of this document from the Orkney Archives. The contract specifies that James Grahame's part of the agreement is to be done by the "advyse of the said Dauid Heart if he sall be on lyff And failyeing of him throw deceas be the advyse of the said [William] Heart his eldest sone and of Mr John Heart Minister his secund sone or ather of thame." With this evidence, I think that we can now confidently identify the parents of John Heart as David Heart and Jean Mowat. Jean's mother, Christian Stewart, was a daughter of Earl Robert Stewart of Orkney, and Robert was a son of King James V of Scotland by Euphame Elphinstone. John Heart, who received his M.A. at St. Andrews in May, 1637, was ordained at Crail on March 22, 1643. Agnes Heart, daughter of John Heart and Agnes Baxter, married Robert Craighead. Their children include colonial immigrants Thomas Craighead, husband of Margaret Wallace, and Katherine Craighead, wife of William Homes. Thomas and William were both Presbyterian ministers. Thomas and Margaret lived in Freetown, Bristol County, Massachusetts, and then in Pennsylvania. Katherine and William lived in Chilmark, Dukes County, Massachusetts (on Martha's Vineyard) where William was the minister from the fall of 1715 until his death in 1746. For some of the previous discussion of this topic, see http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2012-05/1337017240 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/fRZWTSsZitE/CpyCm3FfVCMJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/q6Q3xHo0oWg/Zpc5IaplG1YJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/qPH0BlVAXEs/SdFFkZMwCwAJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/qPH0BlVAXEs/gsh20rtICwAJ

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 8:38:56 AM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote: > I am suspicious of the details as to the year in which Ciceley married Rowland. Can you provide a source for claiming it was in 1588? I can - https://books.google.com/books?id=SukGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=rowland+barker+1588+shropshire&source=bl&ots=7vhWz9NBe7&sig=b6ckyIcFMlM3QxeQ3yG_g9iyrKI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK0fuqsdrTAhWR0YMKHQg4CcAQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=rowland%20barker%201588%20shropshire&f=false

Dear Greg ~ There is a long and interesting Wikipedia article on the Grandmesnil family found at the following weblink: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_de_Grandmesnil Scribla: la fin d'un château d'origine normande en Calabre (2010) by Anne-Marie Flambard Héricher includes two references to a later charter of Mabilia, wife of Guillaume (or Guglielmo) de Grandmesnil: pg. 8 "En outre, dans une charte de l'abbaye Santa Maria della Mattina datant de la fin de l'année 1128 ou du début 1129, Mabille, veuve de Guillaume de Grandmesnil, fait don au monastère de deux terres situées «in tenimento Sagicte» dont la charte precise les limites ..." pg. 23. En 1130, c'est Mabilla, veuve de Guillaume de Grandmesnil, qui fait don à l'abbaye Santa Maria della Mattina de terres qu'elle possède dans le tenement "Sajetta." On y trouble pour la première fois la mention d'une dédicace à saint Antoine: via que descendit apud Sanctum Antonium de Stribula. Il est possible qu'un oratoire, ou une chapelle, voire une église dédiée à ce saint, a été édifié ..." Elsewhere I find that Pratesi, Carte latine di abbazie calabresi provenienti dall'archivio Aldobrandini (1958): 34 refers to the same charter: "Mabilia contessa, vedova di Guglielmo di Grantmesnil, dona per l'anima sua e dei parenti, vivi e defunti, all'abbazia di S. Maria della Matina due terre nella tenuta Sajetta." Mazza, Castrovillari: storia, cultura, economia (2003): 48-49 provides more specific information regarding the elder Guillaume de Grandmesnil (died 1108/14), signore of Castrovillari, and his wife, Countess Mabilia (living 1132). Mazza's discussion include mention of their sons, Guillaume/Guglielmo and Roger [recte Robert]. "Bandita la prima crociata, Guglielmo di Grantmesnil si schierò nel contingente imperiale insieme con i fratelli Ivo ed Alberico, che nel 1096 lo avevano raggiunto a Costantinopoli. Come nota Olderico Vitale, Guglielmo non eccelse per valore se, durante l'assedio di Antiochia da parte dei Turchi, si diede alla fuga, calandosi dalle mura insieme con altri nobili, che per tale gesto furono qualificati "furtivi fanaboli." E Pasquale II non esitò a comminargli la scomunica nel 1100. Quando sia tornato in Calabria insieme con la famiglia è difficile stabilirlo, dato il silenzio delle fonti a tale proposito, ma la censura papale dovette probabilmente escluderlo da una gestione diretta di quelle terre che Mabilia aveva portato in dote e delle quali, Castrovillari inclusa, continuava ad essere domina. E tale rimase dopo la morte del marito, avvenuta tra il 1108 e il 1114. In una carta del 1130 con la quale si confermavano al monastero benedettino di Santa Maria della Matina alcune terre nel territorio di Castrovillari, Mabilia appose la firma dichiarandosi "comitissa." Ma, nel ricordare contestualmente di essere stata moglie "quondam Guillelmi protoplaustro de Gratamanilla", non fa riferimento ad una funzione comitale del marito, del quale ricorda solo il titolo imperiale ricoperto. Che Mabilia sia stata, perciò, contessa di Castrovillari risulta altresì confermato da un'ingiunizione con la quale nel 1234 Matteo Marchafaba, funzionario della dogana imperiale di Federico II, ordinò ai procuratori del demanio di Castrovillari di non molestare il monastero della Matina essendo tale proprietà concessa appunto dala figlia del Guiscardo. In altri documenti, come una donazione del 1122 al monastero di Santa Maria del Patire, tra Rossano et Corigliano, Mabilia ricorda di essere filia "felicissimi Roberti Viscardi", sottoscrivendo insieme con il figlio Guglielmo, che si qualifica appunto semplicemente come suo figlio. Di Mabilia non si hanno più notizie dopo il 1132. La tradizione erudita locale pone al 1129 un tentativo di ribellione posto in atto da parte del figlio Ruggero di Grantmesnil, fratello minore di Guglielmo, stroncato dai fedili de Ruggero II. Vero è che alle morta di Mabilia Castrovillari venne assorbita nel demanio regio insieme con le altre località ad essa soggette, e tale rimase sino agli inizi dell'Età moderna." The above indicates that Guillaume/Guglielmo, the son of Countess Mabilia, was living in 1122. Mazza explains that his brother "Roger" [recte Robert] de Grandmesnil rebelled in 1129. The Wikipedia article adds that Robert subsequently abandoned his Italian fiefdoms and left southern Italy to join his family "beyond the Alps" (probably in Normandy). If Robert de Grandmesnil had a niece, Pernel, I assume she would have been brought to Normandy at that time, and thus brought into the orbit of the Earls of Leicester. Eventually as heiress of the large Grandmesnil honour in Normandy, she would have proved an attractive bride for young Robert de Bréteuil, future Earl of Leicester. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 02:08:30 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > On 9/05/2017 7:28 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > Onde thing we can be pretty sure of, Gisela was born before 999 since placing her birth in 999 leads to an unbeliveable short chronology. > > > > I would say impossibly short, and in conflict with a good deal of > circumstantial evidence. > > Gisela's first husband had apparently been murdered some while before > November 1014, Would logic not suggest that Gisela was already a remarried widow at the time. That she remarried before or in 1012 with her second husband as he received the duchy of Swabia. Hans Vogels and her son by him must have been been born in the first > few years of the 11th century, for reasons set out in the Henry Project > Agatha page. > > Gisela's sister Mathilde was married by April 1005, probably by January > 1003 (the dating of the synod at which her marriage was denounced by > Heinrich II is uncertain). Mathilde has usually been thought the elder > of the two sisters, but this is most probably a specious hold-over from > a time when historians had the order of Gisela's marriages confused. > When their brother died in 1012 his duchy of Swabia was given to > Gisela's second husband - Mathilde was a widow at the time, but she had > two sons. There is no evidence that Heinrich II passed them over for the > inheritance as sons of the eldest daughter, and in any case by 1019 > Gisela's third husband Konrad II (then duke of Franconia) was in > alliance with Mathilde's elder son in strife against the husband of her > younger sister Beatrix - the latter was evidently compensated for the > loss of her inheritance in Swabia with property in Styria. Neither > Mathilde or Beatrix (or their husbands) seem to have contested with > Gisela over the duchy of Swabia. When it was taken from one of Gisela's > sons in 1030 it was given to another, not to the elder son of Mathilde > (who subsequently became duke of Carinthia). > > Peter Stewart