On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 11:07:28 AM UTC-4, Geraldine Bridgewater wrote: > On Sunday, June 6, 1999 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, David MacDougall wrote: > > DGM > > Hello David I believe I am purchasing the Lordship and wonder whether you were able to find any information out about Pitstone Neyrnut other that what is known by Manorial? I particulraly interested in any old maps or documents showing boundaries, But anything you have found out would be of great interest to me. Geraldine, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I believe David left this group 18 years ago. I do not have a current contact info. -Joe C

On Sunday, June 6, 1999 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, David MacDougall wrote: > I'm in search of further details respecting the NEYRNUT (alias > Nernettys, Nerint, Narintt) family of Buckinghamshire. > > They were somewhat obscure manorial lords from about the time of King > Henry II, and were likely extinct in the male line with a certain John > NEYRNUT circa 1450. > > The arms given in VCH Bucks are "Sable billety and a lion argent". In > "General Armory Two" by Morant (under NEYRMUT) they are the same. > > I have several specific questions: > > 1. Is there a crest attributed to this family? > > 2. Are/were the arms officially entered in the College of Arms? > > 3. Is it possible to determine if these arms are borne today by anyone > by virtue of being descended from an heiress of the Neyrnuts (i.e. as a > quartering)? > > Many thanks, > > DGM Hello David I believe I am purchasing the Lordship and wonder whether you were able to find any information out about Pitstone Neyrnut other that what is known by Manorial? I particulraly interested in any old maps or documents showing boundaries, But anything you have found out would be of great interest to me. Kind regards Geraldine Bridgewater

Vivienne, Here are some earlier cases involving Elryngtons. There are three: Simon, John, and Robert. Simon is identified only as "of Middlesex" in these, but he is probably of Hackney, as in 1458. John is identified only as esquire, but could be the same as in in 1458, of Newcastle. And Robert is of Elryngton, Northumberland, esquire. Simon Elryngton, of Middx, esquire or gentleman 1440 Easter d 1596 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/bCP40no717dorses/IMG_1596.htm London. Anne or Aune, Alexander, executor of; (Elryngton, Simon) versus Estfeld, William, of London, knight & former mayor. Debt. 1442 Hilary f 679 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no724/aCP40no724fronts/IMG_0679.htm Northumb. Elryngton, Simon, esq; Proctour, Thomas, clerk, versus Wales, John, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant; Anbell or Aubell, John, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant. Debt. 1448 Hilary f 698 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/aCP40no748fronts/IMG_0698.htm Middx. Elryngton, Simon versus Drayton, John, of Tottenham, gent. Debt. 1450 Trinity d 728 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/bCP40no758dorses/IMG_0728.htm Northumb. Elryngton, Simon, of Middx, gent; Prottour or Proctour, Thomas, chaplain, versus Stevenson, Hugh, of Alwentdale, yeoman; Cottysford, Alwentdale, yeoman; Stevenson, John, of Alwentdale, yeoman; Barker, Roger, of Hexham, tanner. Debt. 1453 Hilary d 1335 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no768/bCP40no768dorses/IMG_1335.htm Middx. Elryngton, Simon, gent versus Smallage, John, of Hakeney, husbandman; Wetwange, Robert, of Dunstan, Northumb, gent; Heron, John, of Forde, Notts, knight; Botell, John, of Greys Inn, Holburn St Andrew, gent; Warde, Thomas, clerk, executor of; (Durant, William, of London, notary). Debt. John Elryngton, esquire 1440 Easter d 1596 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/bCP40no717dorses/IMG_1596.htm Middx. Elryngton, John, esq, on his own account, versus Hepehill, Richard, of Etton, Yorks, clerk; Briggefeld, Richard, of North Cave, Yorks, gent; Alverd, William, of Hakeney, Middx, husbandman; Girlyngton, Edmund, of Hakeney, husbandman. Debt. Robert Elryngton, of Elryngton, Northumb, esquire 1448 Hilary d 1741 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1741.htm Northumb. Langley, Thomas, Bishop of Durham, executors of; (Alnwick, William, Bishop of Lincoln; Neville, Richard, Earl of Salisbury; Hulme, Nicholas, canon of Derlyngton; Strother, Robert, esq; Corston, Richard, chaplain) versus Wodryngton, Roger, of Wordryngton, esq; Elryngton, Robert, of Elryngton, esq; Bartram, John, of Bottale, knight. Debt.

On Thursday, 11 May 2017 14:39:04 UTC+10, Vance Mead wrote: > Was Simon Elryngton of Hackney originally from Newcastle on Tyne? I am seeing quite a few cases where he is suing people from Northumberland. For example, there are these two entries in Common Pleas from 1458: > > http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no788/aCP40no788fronts/IMG_0775.htm > f 953, third entry: > John Basyngthawyte versus John Elryngton, of Newcastle on Tyne, esq; Robert Mitford, of Seton, Northumb, esq. > > http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no788/aCP40no788fronts/IMG_0775.htm > f 775, last entry: > Simon Elryngton, of Hakeney, Middx, and Thomas Proktour, clerk, versus Alan Kar, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant; and Joan Spence, widow, executrix of John Spence, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant. There were certainly Elringtons in the north much earlier than Simon Elrington of Hackney and I would love to know how they connect. 'A History of Northumberland, in Three Parts: General history of the country' p. 371 mentions a number of them. https://archive.org/details/ahistorynorthum01tynegoog Sir John Elrington through his first wife Maud Disney acquired Fosham manor in Aldbrough and other lands in 1467 which passed to their son Simon but this was later than your references. See http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_294_74.shtml#45 and K J Allison, A P Baggs, T N Cooper, C Davidson-Cragoe and J Walker, 'Middle division: Aldbrough', in A History of the County of York East Riding: Volume 7, Holderness Wapentake, Middle and North Divisions, ed. G H R Kent (London, 2002), pp. 5-27. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/east/vol7/pp5-27.

On Thursday, 11 May 2017 10:26:41 UTC+10, Brian Hessick wrote: > On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:51:17 AM UTC-4, Brian Hessick wrote: > > > F. W. T. Attree (ed.), Notes of post mortem inquisitions taken in Sussex. 1 Henry VII to 1649 and after. Sussex Record Society, vol. 14. (1912) > > > > > > > > > It was in there and stated a will being made. Went back to TNA and bracketed the time frame. Sure enough the will populated this time around. In it he bequeaths to his eldest son Edward and youngest son Richard, and for default of issue, to the daughters of his brother Combe. I would assume this means Edward was the only male heir of Sir John Elrington. He also mentioned his brother-in-law Richard Shirley Esq. And thus in the Visitation of Sussex (HSP 53), it lists Beatrix Shirley as marrying Edward Elrington of Hoxton. > > > > Did Margaret Echingham marry a 4th time? > > 46. John Elryngton, the elder, Robert Forster, and Robert Kyllyngham, and Margaret, his wife, widow of Thomas Combes, "gentilman." A messuage and garden in Tryllemylstrete, next Clerkenwell. Warranty against William, abbot of the church of the Blessed Mary and St. Modwenne, of Burton upon Trent. Anno 13. I have only ever found three marriages for Margaret Echingam, firstly to William Blount who died in the Battle of Barnet 1471, secondly Sir John Elrington and thirdly Thomas Combe. The daughters of the Brother Combe are the daughters 'begotten of my sister Anne' (from my reading of the actual will). Anne Elrington was the wife of Edward Combe. I do not know the relationship between Thomas and Edward Combe.

On Saturday, May 18, 1996 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, cyberm wrote: > The following are notes from my various records regarding Osbourne and = > would still need to be verified. These are various bits of info I have = > in my database. Hope this is helpful and perhaps you can send me = > anything you may find that may connect the Bakers mentioned. Good = > reading. > > 1 Richard Osborne, Knight, born 1488 Ashford, Kent =3D Elizabeth Flydane > 1-1 Richard Osbourne (B1510) =3D Jane Broughton, d/o John > 1-1-1 SIR EDWARD OSBOURNE (D1591) , Knight and Lord Mayor of London in = > 1583 =3D Ann Hewett d/o William and Ann Levenson Hewett (Ann is buried = > at St. Martins) =3D=3D Margaret Chapman > 1-1-1-1 Thomas Osbourne > 1-1-1-2 John Osbourne > 1-1-1-3 Sir Hewitt Osbourne, grandfaher 1st Duke of Leeds > 1-1-1-4 Thomas Osbourne at College Land in 1624 census, BONA NOVA in = > 1619 > 1-1-1-5 Adria Osbourne =3D Thomas Harris (B1584) invested =A325 in = > Virginia Company. (Thomas Harris a brother to Arthur Harris who married = > Johanna Percy (D/O Sir Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland). = > Thomas had another brother named "Sergeant" John Harris whose daughter = > Dorothy was the third wife of my ancestor John Baker (unknown if = > related to Sir John Baker mentioned later.) > 1-1-1-6 Ann Osborne (1570-1653) =3D Robert Offley (D1625) at = > Jamestown in 1609 > 1-1-1-6-1 Sarah Offley =3D Cap. Adam Thorogood > 1-1-1-6-2 ___ Offley =3D Sir John Baker of Mayfield and Tenderten > 1-1-1-6-3 Elizabeth Offley =3D Cap John Michael > > I am looking for a Jenkins Osbourne who in 1635 lived adjacent to Wm = > Bayly, and claimed head rights for 8 including Thomas Bateman. In 1647, = > his son Francis Osbourne lived adjacent to Wm Farrar, Cap. Francis = > Eppes, and John Baker when he claimed head rights for Thomas Bayly. = > Robert Hollom lived adjacent to the other orphan brother Edward = > Osbourne in 1636. Cap Thomas Osbourne Jr was near here in 1637 and = > claimed head rights for Thomas Hunt in 1637. > --------------- > 1 William Offley, Mayor of Stafford, Sheriff of Chester in 1517 =3D =3D = > Elizabeth (D/O William Rogerson (D1519) > 1-1 Sir Thomas Offley (D1582), Lord Mayor of London (of the first = > marriage) > 1-2 Robert Offley (D1596), eldest son =3D widow of Nicholas Rose = > (D1572) (Robert was very wealthy, growing from the merchant class = > developing from trade. He moved to London and established himself in = > Grace Church Street as a merchant of staples. Member of the East India = > Company.) She is buried at St Bennetts. > 1-2-1 Robert Offley (D1625), Turkey Merchant (Levant Company) =3D Anne = > Osbourne (1570-1653) (D/O Sir Edward Osbourne (D1591) )(M1588) > ---------------- > 1 Sir William Harris of Crixes > Alice Smythe (D/O Sir Thomas Smythe) > 1-1 Sir Arthur Harris invested =A337 in the Virginia Co. Lincoln=B9s = > Inn Oxford College, Member of Parliament. Married Johanna Percy (D/O = > Sir Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland) > 1-2 William Harris (1582-1622) never married. Came to Virginia on the = > GEORGE in 1621 > 1-3 =B2Sgt=B2 John Harris (1588-1638) invested =A337. Came to Va =3D = > Dorothy 200 acres at Shirley Hundred House of Burgesses 1627-1630. = > Children born at St Dunstans in England, same church as Cap. Wm = > Claiborne of Virginia and Maryland fame. > 1-3-1 Thomas Harris > 1-3-2 John Harris (B1624) > 1-3-3 Dorothy Harris (B1620) =3D =3D John Baker of "Neck of Land" (City = > Point in Hopewell, Va) > 1-4 Thomas Harris (B1584)invested =A325. Came to Va in 1611 =3D Adria = > Osbourne (B1601) at =B3Neck of Land=B2 Henrico in 1623 =3D =3D Joane = > Gurgany (D/O Edward Gurgany) [Cap Thomas Harris, =B3Ancient Planter in = > time of Sir Thomas Dale=B2 , ship PROSPEROUS, Henrico (1623)] > 1-4-1 Robert Harris =3D Mrs Mary Clayborne Rice (W/O Edward Rice)(D/O = > Cap. Wm Claiborne) (via Adria) > 1-5 Alice Harris =3D Sir John Smith of Ostenhanger > 1-5-1 Catherine Smith =3D Sir Henry Baker (Baronet in Sissinghurst, = > Kent in 1611) > > Regards, > > Vaughn Baker The 1616 Will of Thomas Harris, son of Sir William Harris and Alice Smythe, was found in England and published in "The Virginia Genealogist" in Vol 38, No 2, May-Jun 1994. This Will, probated in 1617, proves conclusively that Sir William Harris and Alice Smythe's son Thomas Harris, died in 1617 in England, UNMARRIED and without issue. There are no proven parents for the Capt Thomas Harris 1586 - 1658 of Jamestown and yDNA from his living direct male Harris descendants does not match the yDNA of the living direct male Harris descendants of Sgt John Harris d1638.

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 6:52:58 AM UTC+10, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Em quinta-feira, 11 de maio de 2017 20:09:04 UTC+1, Hans Vogels escreveu: > > A German paper by Armin Wolf on the ancestors of some Medieval German kings and queens can be downloaded from the internet, "Ahnen deutscher Könige und Königinnen. Alternativen zu dem Werk von Eduard Hlawitschka". > > > > http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/b/b045192.pdf > > > > Prepare yourself to 121 pages information and discussion. > > > > It was his answer to the work of Eduard Hlawitschka from 2006, "Die Ahnen der > > hochmittelalterlichen deutsche Könige, Kaiser und ihrer Gemahlinnen. Ein > > kommentiertes Tafelwerk." Bd.I: 911-1137. 2 Teile. Hannover 2006 (Monumenta > > Germaniae Historica, Hilfsmittel 25, 1-2). > > > > For the ones not informed, Eduard Hlawitscha (1928) and Armin Wolf (1935) are > > adversaries for years and have produced lots of words on trying to dismantle > > each other genealogical/historical opinions. > > > > Hans Vogels > > There is a point in which they agree Kuno of Ohningen was the same as Konrad of > Swabia although they disgree if that man's wife was Richilde granddaughter of > Otto the Great defended by Wolf or a certain Judith defended by Hlawitsckha. It is worth noting for anyone who has not seen it that Hlawitschka's 2006-2009 work (on which Wolf commented over 121 pages) represents around 900 pages, covering a vastly wider field of research than just the Richlind controversy. Peter Stewart

Em quinta-feira, 11 de maio de 2017 20:09:04 UTC+1, Hans Vogels escreveu: > A German paper by Armin Wolf on the ancestors of some Medieval German kings and queens can be downloaded from the internet, "Ahnen deutscher Könige und Königinnen. Alternativen zu dem Werk von Eduard Hlawitschka". > > http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/b/b045192.pdf > > Prepare yourself to 121 pages information and discussion. > > It was his answer to the work of Eduard Hlawitschka from 2006, "Die Ahnen der hochmittelalterlichen deutsche Könige, Kaiser und ihrer Gemahlinnen. Ein kommentiertes Tafelwerk." Bd.I: 911-1137. 2 Teile. Hannover 2006 (Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Hilfsmittel 25, 1-2). > > For the ones not informed, Eduard Hlawitscha (1928) and Armin Wolf (1935) are adversaries for years and have produced lots of words on trying to dismantle each other genealogical/historical opinions. > > Hans Vogels There is a point in which they agree Kuno of Ohningen was the same as Konrad of Swabia although they disgree if that man's wife was Richilde granddaughter of Otto the Great defended by Wolf or a certain Judith defended by Hlawitsckha.

On 11/05/2017 1:03 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 11/05/2017 11:13 AM, Roger LeBlanc wrote: >> I have been following with interest the on-going discussion about the >> Empress Gisela, and have discovered errors in the ancestry I show for >> another relative of hers, Bernard von Werl (c 1007-1063). He is shown >> as a >> descendant of Gerberga of Burgundy (who was the mother of Empress >> Gisela), >> but descended from her first marriage rather than the second. What >> should be >> the correct links between Bernard and Gerberga? <snip> > From the dates in your post it appears you may be following the > genealogy given by Friedrich von Klocke in 1049 If only a genealogist had studied this lineage in 1049... The correct year was 1949, in 'Die Grafen von Werl und die Kaiserin Gisela: Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des 10. und 11. Jahrhunderts mit einem Exkurs über Mittelalter-Genealogie', *Westfälische Zeitschrift* 98/99. Peter Stewart

On 11/05/2017 11:13 AM, Roger LeBlanc wrote: > I have been following with interest the on-going discussion about the > Empress Gisela, and have discovered errors in the ancestry I show for > another relative of hers, Bernard von Werl (c 1007-1063). He is shown as a > descendant of Gerberga of Burgundy (who was the mother of Empress Gisela), > but descended from her first marriage rather than the second. What should be > the correct links between Bernard and Gerberga? Unfortunately there isn't a definite or simple answer, as the genealogy of the counts of Werl is somewhat obscure in the late-10th and early-11th centuries. According to Annalista Saxo, writing in the mid-12th century, Gisela had a brother named Bernard ("Gisla et soror eius Machtildis fratresque eius Rodulfus et Bernhardus nati erant in Uuestfalia de loco, qui dicitur Uuerla", see p. 362 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=362. Perhaps this was badly phrased and he meant that Gisela and Mathilde had half-brothers Rodulf and Bernard who were born in Werl, rather than that all four were full-siblings born there. But of course, he may have been flatly wrong. Anyway, Rodulf and Bernard are thought to have been uterine half-brothers of Gisela, and their father was probably Hermann who occurs as count in the approximate timeframe of a first marriage of their mother Gerberga of Burgundy. However, the name of her Werler husband is uncertain. This Bernard according to Annalista Saxo had only daughters ("Bernhardus comes, alter frater eiusdem regine, habuit filias ...", p. 363 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=363). He is usually identified as the count of Hövel and advocate of Essen who died after ca 1030, by ca 1050. From the dates in your post it appears you may be following the genealogy given by Friedrich von Klocke in 1049, identifying Gisela's half-brother Bernard with the count of Werl and advocate of Paderborn who died in the 1060s or later. However, Klocke's version has been contradicted by others and this man is more usually placed as her nephew, the son of Hermann II (thought to have been probably the eldest son of Gerberga of Burgundy by her Werler husband, whether or not he was also named Hermann). Peter Stewart

A German paper by Armin Wolf on the ancestors of some Medieval German kings and queens can be downloaded from the internet, "Ahnen deutscher Könige und Königinnen. Alternativen zu dem Werk von Eduard Hlawitschka". http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/b/b045192.pdf Prepare yourself to 121 pages information and discussion. It was his answer to the work of Eduard Hlawitschka from 2006, "Die Ahnen der hochmittelalterlichen deutsche Könige, Kaiser und ihrer Gemahlinnen. Ein kommentiertes Tafelwerk." Bd.I: 911-1137. 2 Teile. Hannover 2006 (Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Hilfsmittel 25, 1-2). For the ones not informed, Eduard Hlawitscha (1928) and Armin Wolf (1935) are adversaries for years and have produced lots of words on trying to dismantle each other genealogical/historical opinions. Hans Vogels

After years of trying to find my Dunham connection, it appears I am from the Jonathan Singletary. I remain mystified by that surname because it seems to just appear in Surfleet Lincs no earlier than mid 1500s. I researched in Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire, Lincolnshire and other counties. I was somewhat skeptical of the Richard Dunham poulter offered by Reed but DNA seems to support that, provided the lineage used was correct. This confusion is similar to the new revelations of the ancestry of Richard Lee, immigrant. Pat Sent from my iPhone > On May 10, 2017, at 11:01 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> On Thursday, April 2, 1998 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-7, Reedpcgen wrote: >> >> Since it is usual that people have a difficult time giving up what has so long >> been familiar, I post the following to finish this thing off once and for all. >> > snip >> >> If I were a Dunham descendant, I would be grateful to have an account of the >> real marriage and origin of the immigrant John Dunham in Bedfordshire as >> published in TAG and a possible father, which traces the line back with real >> records as far as what is left of the fake ancestry. >> > > I am a Dunham descendant who initially got caught up in the faux Dunham lineage; however, I am now scrupulous about vetting my family tree. I believe there is a real father for the immigrant John Dunham (source and details are shown below). > > Source: England \u0026amp; Wales\u002C Christening Index\u002C 1530-1980 > > Name John Dunham > Gender Male > Christening Date 8 Feb 1589 > Christening Place Pirton, Hertfordshire, England > Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map 12369 > Father Richard Dunham > > Household Members > Name Age > John Dunham > Richard Dunham > > The above information is probably old news to many Dunham-watchers, but there are still people buying into and perpetuating the glamour of knighthood and pageantry of the misdirection held sway for so long. For example, on ancestry.com someone uploaded a portrait of "Sir John Dunham" that I discovered to be Titian's Portrait of Federico II Gonzaga. Go figure. > > sed > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 11/05/2017 1:36 AM, [email protected] wrote: > I know this is drudging up an old post, but I've been trying to sort out the Ferrers family recently. The older genealogies (Burkes, etc.) have numerous errors, conflating different branches of the Ferrers family, and those that don't even seem to be Ferrers. <snip> > 2. Ferrers of Rutland/Oakham. > > The descent of this line comes from a William de Ferrers (1060-1131). Most accounts have him as the son of Henry, who came with the conqueror. This is problematic. Some accounts say Robert I inherits because his older brothers Engenulf and William died before their father, Henry, did. On a similar note, some accounts say Engenulf and William are the same person, and he died before his father, Henry. The problem with these theories are that the Rutland William had heirs, 3 sons, yet none of the property ever held by Henry seems to be held by this line. Engenulf is said to have been given Duffield, by his father, but that property ends up in Robert I's hands, as well, apparently skipping an older brother William, if he existed, and his heirs. > > On the flip side, neither Henry, nor Robert I appear to hold any of the family's ancestral property, back in Normandy. William, however, does. And, when Normandy splits with England, it is William's line that keeps their Normandy property as their main inheritance, joins France, and leaves Oakham to a younger brother, who dies, leaving it to a sister. It is William who is travelling about Normandy with Robert, duke of Normandy, and off on the first Crusade with him. > > In 1086, Oakham is held directly by the king, and in 1166 this line is a direct tenant to the king in Oakham. It is not part of the greater Ferrers holdings, belonging to the Derby Ferrers. > > Everything seems to add up to the conclusion made by Auguste Le Prevost, that William was the son of Henry's older brother, also named William. The Conqueror's army was packed with younger sons wanting to make a name for themselves. Henry appears to be one of them, while his older brother, and his descendants, inherited the ancestral lands, back in Normandy. > > So, if Robert I, of the Derby line, did have a brother, William, he may have died before Henry, but nothing would suggest he's the same William at the top of the Oakham and Normandy line. The evidence seems pretty clear to me that Robert did have a brother named William, and that their father Henry was the seigneur of Ferrières-Saint-Hilaire in Normandy rather than the younger brother of a seigneur named William with heirs of his own. Henri's three sons are named in the foundation charter of Turbury priory, written 1087/1100 in the reign of William Rufus ("ego Henricus de Ferrariis fundavi ecclesiam in honore sancte dei genetricis Marie apud castellum meum Tuttesbur’ pro anima W. regis et Matildis regine et pro salute anime patris mei et matris mee et uxoris mee Berte et filiorum meorum Eugenulphi [sic], W., Roberti ac filiarum mearum ... Hanc autem ecclesiam et quicquid huic ecclesie vel jam prebui vel deinceps prebere voluero per concessionem et auctoritatem W. junioris regis Anglorum dono ecclesie mee Tuttesbur’ et monachis meis ibidem deo servientibus sicut constitutum est apud Melbergam ante prefatum regem Willelmum.") Although the comma after Engenulf's name is presumably an editorial addition, I see no reason to think that this was one son with two names. "W." stood for the name William with both kings named, so why would Henri's son Robert not have a second brother named William? And if the William who became seigneur of Ferrières was an elder brother of Henri, why would the latter assume the conventional style of a seigneur in subscribing a charter of William the Conqueror in April 1067 ("Signum Henrici de Ferreris"), as also in the foundation charter of Tutbury quoted above? Younger brothers of seigneurs at this time were more usually identified only as sons of their father, not with their own territorial designation or surname. It was quite usual for Norman and English lands to be divided between different sons of seigneurs in the generation after the Conquest, with the eldest normally sticking to the Norman inheritance that was considered more secure. Peter Stewart

RE > 4. Thomas Hasilden, inherited his father's property in Yorkshire, which > he sold in May 1437; living, 1439. Hi, could you give me the sources for the two dates above please. TY Peter

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:36:22 AM UTC+10, [email protected] wrote: <snip> > 2. Ferrers of Rutland/Oakham. > > The descent of this line comes from a William de Ferrers (1060-1131). Where did you find these dates for William? As far as I know, there is no record of his birth in 1060 or of his death in 1131 - the latter is actually counter to evidence, because his son Henri occurs several times holding the family's lands in England in the pipe roll compiled at Michaelmas 1130. (This used to be ascribed to 1131 and so the terminus ante quem for William's death was derived from that by 19th/early-20th century historians.) Henri's appearance in the pipe roll for 31 Henry I doesn't necessarily mean that he had only recently inherited by Michaelmas 1130 - William his father last occurs in the record of a judgment delivered in 1111, I think, though I haven't made a thorough search for him afterwards. Stapleton, who first gave the generally-accepted genealogy of this branch, noted that William was living 1090-1106. Lewis Loyd in his study of the family repeated this, stating that William was "Living 1106. Dead 1131". Peter Stewart

Thanks On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 8:18:51 PM PDT, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:On 11/05/2017 11:13 AM, Roger LeBlanc wrote: > I have been following with interest the on-going discussion about the > Empress Gisela, and have discovered errors in the ancestry I show for > another relative of hers, Bernard von Werl (c 1007-1063). He is shown as a > descendant of Gerberga of Burgundy (who was the mother of Empress Gisela), > but descended from her first marriage rather than the second. What should be > the correct links between Bernard and Gerberga? Unfortunately there isn't a definite or simple answer, as the genealogy of the counts of Werl is somewhat obscure in the late-10th and early-11th centuries. According to Annalista Saxo, writing in the mid-12th century, Gisela had a brother named Bernard ("Gisla et soror eius Machtildis fratresque eius Rodulfus et Bernhardus nati erant in Uuestfalia de loco, qui dicitur Uuerla", see p. 362 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=362. Perhaps this was badly phrased and he meant that Gisela and Mathilde had half-brothers Rodulf and Bernard who were born in Werl, rather than that all four were full-siblings born there. But of course, he may have been flatly wrong. Anyway, Rodulf and Bernard are thought to have been uterine half-brothers of Gisela, and their father was probably Hermann who occurs as count in the approximate timeframe of a first marriage of their mother Gerberga of Burgundy. However, the name of her Werler husband is uncertain. This Bernard according to Annalista Saxo had only daughters ("Bernhardus comes, alter frater eiusdem regine, habuit filias ...", p. 363 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=363). He is usually identified as the count of Hövel and advocate of Essen who died after ca 1030, by ca 1050. From the dates in your post it appears you may be following the genealogy given by Friedrich von Klocke in 1049, identifying Gisela's half-brother Bernard with the count of Werl and advocate of Paderborn who died in the 1060s or later. However, Klocke's version has been contradicted by others and this man is more usually placed as her nephew, the son of Hermann II (thought to have been probably the eldest son of Gerberga of Burgundy by her Werler husband, whether or not he was also named Hermann). Peter Stewart ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you for these clarifications Peter. They are very helpful. Roger LeBlanc -----Original Message----- From: GEN-MEDIEVAL [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart Sent: May-10-17 10:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Bernard Graf von Werl On 11/05/2017 11:13 AM, Roger LeBlanc wrote: > I have been following with interest the on-going discussion about the > Empress Gisela, and have discovered errors in the ancestry I show for > another relative of hers, Bernard von Werl (c 1007-1063). He is shown > as a descendant of Gerberga of Burgundy (who was the mother of Empress > Gisela), but descended from her first marriage rather than the second. > What should be the correct links between Bernard and Gerberga? Unfortunately there isn't a definite or simple answer, as the genealogy of the counts of Werl is somewhat obscure in the late-10th and early-11th centuries. According to Annalista Saxo, writing in the mid-12th century, Gisela had a brother named Bernard ("Gisla et soror eius Machtildis fratresque eius Rodulfus et Bernhardus nati erant in Uuestfalia de loco, qui dicitur Uuerla", see p. 362 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=362. Perhaps this was badly phrased and he meant that Gisela and Mathilde had half-brothers Rodulf and Bernard who were born in Werl, rather than that all four were full-siblings born there. But of course, he may have been flatly wrong. Anyway, Rodulf and Bernard are thought to have been uterine half-brothers of Gisela, and their father was probably Hermann who occurs as count in the approximate timeframe of a first marriage of their mother Gerberga of Burgundy. However, the name of her Werler husband is uncertain. This Bernard according to Annalista Saxo had only daughters ("Bernhardus comes, alter frater eiusdem regine, habuit filias ...", p. 363 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00066318.html?pageNo=363). He is usually identified as the count of Hövel and advocate of Essen who died after ca 1030, by ca 1050. From the dates in your post it appears you may be following the genealogy given by Friedrich von Klocke in 1049, identifying Gisela's half-brother Bernard with the count of Werl and advocate of Paderborn who died in the 1060s or later. However, Klocke's version has been contradicted by others and this man is more usually placed as her nephew, the son of Hermann II (thought to have been probably the eldest son of Gerberga of Burgundy by her Werler husband, whether or not he was also named Hermann). Peter Stewart

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 4:51:23 PM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote: > Dear Jan, John, and Kelsey - > > Your research collaboration has been most impressive. Kudos to all of you for your collegial approach to problem solving the Heart-Mowat ancestral line. Way to go! > > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah Thanks, Douglas, and thank you for the sources you identified and suggested to us and for your discussion about and encouragement of this research. Now that I am convinced about the identity of John Heart's parents, I expect to turn some attention to your suggestions about the Elphinstone family and details of the life of Earl Robert that may identify Christian's mother. Fundamental to this whole project was John Brandon's initial insight that John Heart may have been a son of David Heart and Jean Mowat, his finding the 1638 charter signed by David Heart and his sons William Heart and Mr. John Heart, his identification of many other documents relevant to this family (including the existence of a marriage agreement for Margaret), and his noticing the Mather letter that suggests that John Heart had a son named David.

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 8:03:21 AM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 10/05/2017 5:50 AM, Hans Vogels wrote: > > Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: > > > > Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. > > > > Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen Geschichte", blz.196 > > > > http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html > > > > suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his marriage. > > This is based on an inauthentic charter from St Stephan abbey in > Strasbourg, and the dating is one of the give-away elements (the charter > states 1005, but with other details indicating 1004). > > By the way, it is unfortunate that the citation on > Genealogie-Mittelalter is to Wilhelm Wegener, who was the editor, > instead of Franz Tyroller who was the author. I had forgotten the details of this - Tyroller was misrepresenting the evidence in the forged charter anyway, since it claims that Werner, bishop of Strasbourg, had received authority over St Stephan abbey "mediantibus hoc principibus Hermanno duce, Ernesto palatino ...", i.e. if true Ernest must have been palatine in Swabia some time before the date of the charter that the forger placed in 1005 with indiction, concurrent and epact corresponding to 1004 (Tyroller sought to resolve the contradiction by placing it on 25 December 1004, the first day of 1005 Christmas style). However, we know from authentic sources that Werner was given the abbey by Heinrich II on 15 January 1003, after duke Hermann had ceded it on 1 October 1002 in reparation for damage he had caused in Strasbourg during his opposition to Heinrich - so if relying on this spurious document to conclude that Ernest was palatine while his father-in-law (who died on 4 May 1003) was duke, the marriage of Gisela to Ernest would have to be placed before January 1003 rather than by Christmas 1004. Peter Stewart

Was Simon Elryngton of Hackney originally from Newcastle on Tyne? I am seeing quite a few cases where he is suing people from Northumberland. For example, there are these two entries in Common Pleas from 1458: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no788/aCP40no788fronts/IMG_0775.htm f 953, third entry: John Basyngthawyte versus John Elryngton, of Newcastle on Tyne, esq; Robert Mitford, of Seton, Northumb, esq. http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no788/aCP40no788fronts/IMG_0775.htm f 775, last entry: Simon Elryngton, of Hakeney, Middx, and Thomas Proktour, clerk, versus Alan Kar, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant; and Joan Spence, widow, executrix of John Spence, of Newcastle on Tyne, merchant.