The descendants of Rev. Thomas Craighead and Margaret Wallace include numerous Presbyterian ministers, the author Jean Craighead George, and Dr. Annie Alexander of Charlotte, NC, supposedly the first woman with an M.D. to practice in the South. http://northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/annie-lowrie-alexander-1864-1929/

There's quite a bit of missing details there. Is there any reason to suspect that this family had connections to Ireland at all? Are there any indications that any members of this Barnes family ever went to Ireland? To get from 1630 to 1713 you have to cover a lot of ground in wills and property records. That should be where you start. What happened to all the property? I expect you will find that this family died out in the male line.

On 5/15/2017 12:26 AM, Hans Vogels wrote: > H. Dobbertin's self-admitted starting point was the plaque and 999 as > Gisela's birthyear. Published research, as well as contributions here > on the newsgroup, has proven him wrong on this account, therefore some > topics continue to buzz. The other piece of evidence which keeps Dobbertin's theory from being stopped dead in its tracks is Annalista Saxo, which incorrectly places Gisela's marriage to Ernst before her marriage to Bruno, consistent with what it necessary for Dobbertin's theory to work. The plaque and Annalista Saxo are both reasonable pieces of evidence that one should be reluctant to set aside without good reason, but there are so many pieces of evidence pointing in the other direction that their combined weight is sufficient to overturn the plaque and Annalista. However, when considered individually, none of these other pieces of evidence qualifies as a "smoking gun" by itself. Thus, someone who has already made up their mind based on the plaque and Annalista Saxo might very well believe that they could argue away the other pieces of evidence individually without considering their combined weight. So, it seems likely that some version of Dobbertin's theory will be making an appearance from time to time. Stewart Baldwin

On 14/05/2017 10:53 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Ida's son Ekbert was at least a teen when he was killed before 1054 so making Ida daughter of man bon in the 1000s is a bit tight but possible. However as you indicated there are good reasons for doubting Albert's narrative. I think the assumption that Ida's son Ekbert (if he existed at all) must have been at least an active youth when he was killed is not a weighty objection - little children can be murdered. The story is that Ekbert was killed near Elstorp by his kinsman the marquis Udo - however, Udo was only count of Stade until 1056/57 when he became a marquis shortly before he died, well after the death of Pope Leo IX to whom Ida is supposed to have gone for advice following the murder of her son by "marquis" Udo. Ida was supposed to be bereft of heirs by the act, yet Albert says she had other children. He also says she was born in Swabia, whereas Liutpold of Brunswick's homeland was in Saxony. Either way she could scarcely have known her alleged maternal uncle Leo IX, who was bishop of Toul from 1026 and pope from 1049. Presumably Ida would have had spiritual advisers wherever she lived, sparing her the trouble of going to Rome in order to receive advice that, in her response to it anyway, was outside the moral teaching of the Church - it may be required to forgive a wrongdoer, but not to reward him by adopting him into the place of his victim. It seems likely to me that the Stade family had a distorted idea of how they came by some part of their inheritance, and Ida's story was Albert's very unconvincing attempt to make sense of this. Peter Stewart

'Parishes: Elsfield', in A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 5, Bullingdon Hundred, ed. Mary D Lobel (London, 1957), pp. 116-122. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol5/pp116-122 [accessed 15 May 2017]. "Hugh son of William of Elsfield granted away lands in Elsfield in the late 12th and early 13th century. (fn. 19) John of Elsfield, probably his nephew, (fn. 20) held ½ knight's fee in Elsfield of William of Stratford in 1242. (fn. 21) In 1254 Elsfield was said to comprise 5 hides of which John of Elsfield held 4 and St. Frideswide's 1. They both held of William de Stratford and the St. Frideswide's portion was held as 1/5 knight's fee although in 1242 it was held in free alms. (fn. 22) In 1279 John of Elsfield, presumably a different man, held four-fifths of the manor and had granted a life-tenancy of it to Margery de Bolehuth or Rillehitch. (fn. 23) In 1304 John of Elsfield settled the manor on his son Gilbert, subject to a life-tenancy for himself. (fn. 24) Gilbert was lord by 1316 (fn. 25) and settled the manor on himself and his wife Joan in 1323. (fn. 26) In 1327 he received a grant of free warren and licence to impark his wood at Elsfield. (fn. 27) The manor was held in 1350 by Joan of Elsfield, presumably Gilbert's widow, (fn. 28) and in 1369 by Thomas of Elsfield. Thomas made an exchange with the canons of St. Frideswide's in that year by which he gave them 74 acres of arable, with wood, meadow, and pasture, from his demesne, and they surrendered to him their fifth of the manor and all its appurtenant rights. (fn. 29) The manor thus became united in the possession of the Elsfields. In 1471 it was said that William of Elsfield, who died seised of the manor in 1398, was the son of Gilbert and Joan who held it in 1323, (fn. 30) so that he may have been a younger brother of Thomas. William left two coheirs. The first was a granddaughter, Joan, who was the daughter of his daughter Anne and had become the wife of John Hore. The other, also named Joan, was the surviving, and presumably younger, daughter of William of Elsfield. She was married to Thomas Loundres. (fn. 31) Nothing more is heard of this Joan, and the future of the manor belonged to John Hore's descendants. He came from Childerley near Cambridge, where the 15th-century chapel of his family's moated manor-house may still be seen. His son Gilbert died in 1453, leaving a son and heir, John, (fn. 32) who lived until 1471, leaving only an infant daughter, Edith. (fn. 33) Edith married twice. Her first husband was Thomas Fulthorpe of Barnard Castle (co. Dur.), who was alive in 1516; (fn. 34) the second, Rowland, son of Henry Pudsey of Barford and Bolton in Yorkshire, the son and heir of Sir John Pudsey, also came from the north, but his family acquired property in Worcestershire, and the Elsfield branch of the Pudseys were the descendants of William Pudsey of Langley (Warws.). " FWIW Doug Smith

Op maandag 15 mei 2017 03:05:45 UTC+2 schreef Peter Stewart: > On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 7:32:25 AM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote: > > On 10/05/2017 12:22 AM, Stewart Baldwin wrote: > > > On 5/8/2017 4:15 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > > > >> One thing we can be pretty surge of, Gisela was born before 999 since > > >> placing her birthdate on 999 would lead to an unbeliavable short > > >> chronology > > > > > > That hasn't stopped everybody from proposing that the 999 date be > > > accepted. Biologically, the date could be described as "not quite > > > impossible" and Hans Dobbertin argued in two papers that the date was > > > correct, using "Annalista Saxo" to claim that Ernst was Gisela's first > > > husband and Bruno the second. See Hans Dobbertin, "Das > > > Verwandtschaftsverhältnis der 'schwäbischen' Edlen Ida von Elsdorf zum > > > Kaiserbruder Ludolf IV. von Braunschweig (+1038) und zu Papst Leo IX. > > > (+1054)," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 43 (1962): 44-76; and "Neues > > > über Ida von Elsdorf," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 53 (1972): 49-67. > > > Most scholars have rejected his arguments, but he has attracted > > > occasional followers. > > > > This controversy has been neatly described (I think by Herwig Wolfram) > > as a wasps' nest, with Hans Dobbertin indefatigably buzzing around it. > > This ascription to Herwig Wolfram was wrong, it was Hermann Jakobs in *Der Adel in der Klosterreform von St. Blasien* (1968), p. 184: 'Wer die Frage nach Idas Herkunft anpackt, greift aber gleichsam in ein Wespennest der Forschung, das zwar erst vor kurzem von H. Dobbertin zur Ruhe gebracht worden ist, in dem es aber immer noch recht unruhig summt.' > > Peter Stewart H. Dobbertin's self-admitted starting point was the plaque and 999 as Gisela's birthyear. Published research, as well as contributions here on the newsgroup, has proven him wrong on this account, therefore some topics continue to buzz. Hans Vogels

On 14/05/2017 8:21 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Albert of Stade doesn't say which brother of Henry III was Ida's father but since Ernest II and Hermann IV are unlikely candidates she has generally been placed as daughter of Liudolf. Not just unlikely candidates, they are impossible ones. Both of them were born too late, Ernest was evidently unmarried, and Hermann's wife was heiress of Turin. In any case, it is hardly worthwhile trying to find a way to retrieve some vestige of possible fact out of Albert of Stade's account - even if you can satisfy yourself with this biologically, as to Ida's origin that is problematic on both sides, there remains the biographic problem of her weird story. Albert was probably without a reliable source, stitching together some odd patches of local legend to make a crude sort of narrative quilt. Peter Stewart

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 7:32:25 AM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 10/05/2017 12:22 AM, Stewart Baldwin wrote: > > On 5/8/2017 4:15 PM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > > > >> One thing we can be pretty surge of, Gisela was born before 999 since > >> placing her birthdate on 999 would lead to an unbeliavable short > >> chronology > > > > That hasn't stopped everybody from proposing that the 999 date be > > accepted. Biologically, the date could be described as "not quite > > impossible" and Hans Dobbertin argued in two papers that the date was > > correct, using "Annalista Saxo" to claim that Ernst was Gisela's first > > husband and Bruno the second. See Hans Dobbertin, "Das > > Verwandtschaftsverhältnis der 'schwäbischen' Edlen Ida von Elsdorf zum > > Kaiserbruder Ludolf IV. von Braunschweig (+1038) und zu Papst Leo IX. > > (+1054)," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 43 (1962): 44-76; and "Neues > > über Ida von Elsdorf," Braunschweigisches Jahrbuch 53 (1972): 49-67. > > Most scholars have rejected his arguments, but he has attracted > > occasional followers. > > This controversy has been neatly described (I think by Herwig Wolfram) > as a wasps' nest, with Hans Dobbertin indefatigably buzzing around it. This ascription to Herwig Wolfram was wrong, it was Hermann Jakobs in *Der Adel in der Klosterreform von St. Blasien* (1968), p. 184: 'Wer die Frage nach Idas Herkunft anpackt, greift aber gleichsam in ein Wespennest der Forschung, das zwar erst vor kurzem von H. Dobbertin zur Ruhe gebracht worden ist, in dem es aber immer noch recht unruhig summt.' Peter Stewart

Alan of Elsfield has been mentioned here before, the informetion on him and especially this new info on his brother Richard of Elsfeld is hoped to be further explored. Any help from the team here would be most apprecaited. The summary of some of the info seems to imply the kinship was based on his brother Gilbert of Elsfeld being one of Hugh Despenser's knight's, and therefore his arms were similar to Despenser arms. That does not quite fit in my mind and I would like the imput of the great minds here to try to settle this issue. Richard of Elsfeld, brother of Alan of Elsfeild served as the Constable of Boreaux, Gascony from 1318-1320. I suspeect his appointemnt was arranged by Hugh Despenser to expand his influence. Richard's time in Gascony went very badly. Source: Richard of Elsfield as Constable of Bordeaux, 1318-20 Esme Pole Stuart and Hilda Johnstone The English Historical Review Vol. 52, No. 205 (Jan., 1937), pp. 23-38 In 1327, Gilbert de Elsfield, who died in 1397, applied for a royal licence to ‘impark’ his wood at Elsfield which would give him the right to protect young trees from grazing animals and also to preserve his own deer. There is no written record to show that he actually did this but Cole concludes that the purlieu was made between Woodeaton and Elsfield running from the Islip road to the Cherwell, i.e. along the northern boundary of the parish. Gilbert also obtained a grant of free warren which gave him the right to hunt small game such as roe deer, rabbits, pheasant and duc Gilbert de Elsfield, who sought to empark his wood, was the last man of his line, but his daughter Anne left a daughter Joan, who in 1407 married John Hore of Childerley in Cambridgeshire. Several generations later a daughter, called either Edith or Eliza, married as her second husband Rowland Pudsey, whose descendants were lords of the Manor until 1692. Gilbert de Elsefeld (Elsfield) Name(s): de Elsefeld (Elsfield), Gilbert Addressees: King and council Nature of request: [Petition badly damaged.]Gilbert de Elsefeld states that John de Seynte Eleyne, who married Juliana de Elsefeld, grandmother of the said Gilbert, had leased to Adam de Stretton £10 of land in Blunsdon for term of life and £5 of rent in the vill of Cricklade in the county of Wiltshire, of the dower of the said Juliana and of the inheritance of the same Gilbert. These tenements were seized into the hand of our lord the King, together with other lands and tenements of the said Adam, because of his forfeiture. [Gilbert and] John his father, son and heir of the said Juliana, have often sued by petition in parliament . . . our lord the King that that land and rent might be given to him as his . . . lord the king and his council that justice and reason be done to him . . . cannot have other estate in the said land and rent than the said Adam had. Nature of endorsement: [Not visible, due to damage to ms, and it is impossible to tell whether there was ever an endorsement. This is the endorsement edited in Docs. Illus. English History p.32: 'The Treasurer, Barons and Chamberlains of the Exchequer are to be ordered by a writ of the great seal, containing the entire effect of the petition, to examine the memoranda and muniments in the Treasury which belonged to Adam de Stretton, and to inform themselves on what they can find concerning this business: and if that is not sufficient to determine the business etc., then they are further to inquire in the Exchequer, and they are to inform the King in Chancery of what they have found in the Exchequer or by that inquiry: so that he might further ordain a suitable remedy for the complainant etc.'] Places mentioned: Blunsdon, Wiltshire; Cricklade, Wiltshire People mentioned: Juliana de Elsefeld; [John de Seynte Eleyne]; Adam [de Stretton]; John [de Elsefeld], son and heir of Juliana de Elsefeld. Note: The Latin summary of the petition is enrolled on the roll of the October parliament of 12 Edward II (1318) (Docs. Illus. English History p.32). Date: [? 1318] Related material: For another petition by the same petitioner on the same matter, see SC 8/178/8880 For the former reference number of a portion of this petition which has subsequently been reunited with this fragment, see SC 8/155/7702 For a much later but related petition, see SC 8/84/4158 For another petition by the same petitioner on the same matter, see SC 8/1/35 Source: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9062426 HARNESS PENDANT (found at Bushwood, Warwickshire) Unique ID: WMID-6F4932 Object type certainty: Certain Workflow status: Published An incomplete cast copper alloy heraldic horse harness pendant with remains of enamelling, dating to the 13th/ 14th century AD (length: 32.1mm; width: 20mm; thickness: 2.4mm; thickness at loop: 6mm; weight: 5.75g). This shield-shaped pendant has a suspension loop at the top that is due to wear and corrosion and with decoration on the front only in the form of a black strip of enamel running diagonally from the top left corner down to the right. There are three incised six-pointed stars appearing at irregular intervals on along the black enamel, with the remains of red enamel to the top and bottom fields of the decoration. There is no decoration on the back of the artefact. The pendant is in a worn but fair condition with a dark green patina. The heraldic pendant and its coat of arms have been studied by Irene Szymanski with the help of Jim Halliday, who clarifies the following information: ‘The design is unique amongst recorded arms. The piece probably shows the arms of Alan Elsfield - when new, the background would have been divided into four with two of the segments red (still visible); the other two would have been silver. The red segments would have had a lattice pattern in gold. The diagonal band (known heraldically as a "bend"), would have been black, and the stars (mullets of 6) would have been gold (the whole thing is illustrated in the enclosed picture passed on by Mrs Szymanski (arms1.jpg). The leftmost of Alan Elsfield's arms has "a fret" instead of "fretty" – both arms are recorded, but I'm not sure which was on this pendant - I can see a diagonal line there, but that's about it. Elsfield was probably a knight of Oxfordshire; Elsfield is a few miles NE of Oxford itself. I say probably re Alan, because nothing is known of him other than his name, which occurs alongside a note of his arms in three places (Segar's Roll, circa 1282; The Lord Marshall's Roll, circa 1310; Collins' Roll, circa 1295). He wasn't necessarily alive at all of those dates, but it does place him broadly as a contemporary of Edward I, and presumably involved with that monarch's wars against the Welsh and the Scots. There are two men who share the name Elsfield, Gilbert and John, who are thought to have been related to Alan. Their arms are not identical, but similar; note how they use the same palette of colours. Gilbert is known to have been a knight of Hugh Despencer's,and Alan's arms suggest that he was also. Again, if you look at the picture, you'll see that Alan's arms bear a notable resemblance to Despencer's arms; you expect this sort of similarity if there is an overlord/knight relationship’. Blazons of relevant arms: • Alan Elsfield: quarterly argent, and gules fretty or, over all a bend sable charged with three mullets of six • Gilbert Elsfield: barry undy argent and sable, a label gules • Hugh Despencer: quarterly argent, and gules fretty or, over all a bend sable I would like to say a big thank you to Irene Szymanski and Jim Halliday with their help in writing this record. finds.org.uk Sub class: heraldic Subsequent actions Subsequent action after recording: Returned to finder Chronology Broad period: MEDIEVAL Period from: MEDIEVAL Period to: MEDIEVAL Date from: Post AD 1250 Date to: Ante AD 1320 Dimensions and weight Quantity: 1 Length: 32.1 mm Width: 20 mm Thickness: 2.4 mm Weight: 5.75 g Discovery dates Date(s) of discovery: Monday 11th July 2005 Personal details Found by: This information is restricted for your login. Recorded by: Ms Caroline Johnson Identified by: Ms Caroline Johnson Secondary identifier: Mrs Irene Szymanski Materials and construction Primary material: Copper alloy Secondary material: Enamel Manufacture method: Cast Completeness: Incomplete Spatial metadata Region: West Midlands (European Region) County or Unitary authority: Warwickshire (County) District: Warwick (District) To be known as: Bushwood Spatial coordinates Grid reference source: From finder Unmasked grid reference accurate to a 100 metre square. finds.org.uk Discovery metadata Method of discovery: Metal detector General landuse: Cultivated land Thank you.. Robert Spencer

On 14/05/2017 3:37 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Mr. Stewart, in one post at the thread The Bad Logics of Geni's Agatha page you mentioned Ida of Elsterdof tradionally believed to be granddaughter of Empress Gisela and daughter of Liudolf however I must say that the chronology making her Gisela's granddaughter and Liudolf's daughter is very tight what do you think. This relationship of Ida to Gisela relies on the peculiar account given by Albert of Stade, which I think is probably wrong. That Liudolf was Gisela's son is proven by imperial charters where he is called step-son of Konrad II and (half-)brother of Heinrich III, but we don't have nearly such compelling evidence that Ida was a daughter of Liudolf. Despite the charter evidence, Albrecht von Finckenstein in 1978 questioned whether Liudolf was actually Gisela's son or perhaps was really her step-son - this seems unreasonable to me, as 'privignus' and 'frater' were not loose terms in imperial diplomatic. However, the connection to Ida is based on a source that seems equally unreasonable to me. Her son and heir is supposed to have been killed, whereupon she trekked to Rome to consult with her alleged uncle Pope Leo IX and on returning home adopted her son's killer as her heir despite having other biological offspring of her own. To me this narrative has a surreal quality, like an incidental story from 1,001 Nights. Peter Stewart

Ida's son Ekbert was at least a teen when he was killed before 1054 so making Ida daughter of man bon in the 1000s is a bit tight but possible. However as you indicated there are good reasons for doubting Albert's narrative.

Ida's son Ekbert was at least a teen when he was killed which happened before 1054 so making Ida daughter of a man born in the 1000s is difficult although not impossible.

Albert of Stade doesn't say which brother of Henry III was Ida's father but since Ernest II and Hermann IV are unlikely candidates she has generally been placed as daughter of Liudolf.

Op zaterdag 13 mei 2017 19:37:27 UTC+2 schreef Paulo Canedo: > Mr. Stewart, in one post at the thread The Bad Logics of Geni's Agatha page you mentioned Ida of Elsterdof tradionally believed to be granddaughter of Empress Gisela and daughter of Liudolf however I must say that the chronology making her Gisela's granddaughter and Liudolf's daughter is very tight what do you think. >From what I read on Ida of Elsdorp, a later suggestion was that she was a stepdaughter of Liudolf, a daughter from a previous marriage of his wife Gertrud [of Egisheim or as a daughter of an Egbert). Even Liudolf could have married twice as well, an option that might explain that Ida was related to the counts of Egisheim (thus to pope Leo), to emperor Heinrich III (as [step-]daughter of his halfbrother), and otherwise were the name Egbert of Liudolfs son came from. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/brunonen_sippe/familie_der_brunonen.html http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/richenza_von_northeim_erbin_von_harsefeld.html Hans Vogels

Let's try this again: I'm trying to ascertain the validity -- or (probably) otherwise -- of an alleged line of descent that would derive my 7th great grandfather, Brinsley Barnes, who was christened at St Bride's, Dublin, in February of 1713, the son of a Dr James Barnes of William St., Dublin, grandson of another James Barnes, and thus the great grandson of George Barnes and Janeta Key. The question I asked earlier was, essentially, whether this George Barnes is to be identified with George Barnes, the known son Sir William Barne and Anne Sandys. Thanks -- again -- in advance. On Monday, 8, 2017, David Teague <[email protected]> wrote: > Does anyone know the name of the wife of George Barne/Barnes, son of Sir > William Barne and Anne Sandys? I'm checking a claimed line of descent, and > that's the point that looks a bit dodgy to me. > > Thanks in advance! > > David Teague >

Mr. Stewart, in one post at the thread The Bad Logics of Geni's Agatha page you mentioned Ida of Elsterdof tradionally believed to be granddaughter of Empress Gisela and daughter of Liudolf however I must say that the chronology making her Gisela's granddaughter and Liudolf's daughter is very tight what do you think.

Gus Gem [email protected] On 10 May 2017, at 02:10, [email protected] wrote: > Send GEN-MEDIEVAL mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists2.rootsweb.ancestry.com/mailman/listinfo/gen-medieval > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of GEN-MEDIEVAL digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Another Agatha sidelight - the birthdate of Empress > Gisela (Peter Stewart) > 2. Curmsun disc (taf) > 3. Re: Curmsun disc (Peter Stewart) > 4. Re: John Heart, son of David Heart and Jean Mowat, descendant > of James V of Scotland ([email protected]) > > From: Peter Stewart <[email protected]> > Date: 9 May 2017 23:03:11 BST > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Another Agatha sidelight - the birthdate of Empress > Gisela > > > > > On 10/05/2017 5:50 AM, Hans Vogels wrote: >> Op dinsdag 9 mei 2017 20:51:49 UTC+2 schreef Hans Vogels: >> >> Count Bruno was one of the pretenders in July 1002 when king >> Heinrich II was chosen. That seems to be his last mentioning. >> >> Dr. Wilhelm Wegener, "Genealogische Tafeln zur Mitteleuropäischen >> Geschichte", blz.196 >> >> http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/schwaben/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_1039_babenberger/hermann_4_herzog_von_schwaben_+_1038.html >> >> suggests that Ernst I, husband (married before 1012) of Gisela, was >> already married before Christmas 1004 when he appears as >> (Schwäbischer) Pfalzgraf, which can only be explained through his >> marriage. > > This is based on an inauthentic charter from St Stephan abbey in > Strasbourg, and the dating is one of the give-away elements (the > charter states 1005, but with other details indicating 1004). > > By the way, it is unfortunate that the citation on Genealogie- > Mittelalter is to Wilhelm Wegener, who was the editor, instead of > Franz Tyroller who was the author. > > Peter Stewart > > > > > From: taf <[email protected]> > Date: 10 May 2017 00:47:03 BST > To: [email protected] > Subject: Curmsun disc > > > In December 2014, there were reports of the rediscovery of a crude > gold disc in what is now Poland, near the ancient location of the > viking stronghold of Jomsborg. It's history is convoluted and > accounts somewhat contradictory - it is said to have formed part of > a viking hoard originally found in the crypt of a ruined church in > 1841. During WWII the disc fell into the hands of a Polish army > officer (I have seen different accounts of how this happened) and > the value of the disc not recognized. In 2014, his great-grandchild > took the interesting trinket to show her teacher and the rest, as > they say, is history (perhaps). The disc has come to be called the > 'Curmsun disc'. > > Why do we care? The disc contains a curious inscription, which if > contemporary would be one of the oldest pieces of genealogical > evidence regarding viking-era Scandinavia not found on a rune stone. > > Specifically it reads > > +ARALD > CVRMSVN+ > REX AD TAN > ER+SCON+J > VMN+CIV > ALDIN+ > > Which has been interpreted as: Harald Gormson, King of Danes, > Scania, Jomsborg, and Oldenburg (there are various alternative > interpretations). There is some dispute as to whether it is > authentic or a later forgery, and those in the 'authentic camp' all > seem to have a different interpretation of when and why the disc was > cast (it is agreed it was cast and not struck). > > Is anyone aware of any published scholarly analysis of this item? > (hopefully not requiring me to learn Polish or Danish to read) The > following two Academia.edu deposits appear respectable, but I am > intereted in what the broader scholarly community is making of it. > > https://www.academia.edu/9647410/A_unique_object_from_Harald_Bluetooth_s_time._2015_ > > https://www.academia.edu/29233334/The_Curmsun_Disc_-_Harald_Bluetooth_s_Golden_Seal > > See also: http://www.thecurmsundisc.com/ > > taf > > > > > From: Peter Stewart <[email protected]> > Date: 10 May 2017 01:31:59 BST > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Curmsun disc > > > > > On 10/05/2017 9:47 AM, taf wrote: >> In December 2014, there were reports of the rediscovery of a crude >> gold disc in what is now Poland, near the ancient location of the >> viking stronghold of Jomsborg. It's history is convoluted and >> accounts somewhat contradictory - it is said to have formed part of >> a viking hoard originally found in the crypt of a ruined church in >> 1841. During WWII the disc fell into the hands of a Polish army >> officer (I have seen different accounts of how this happened) and >> the value of the disc not recognized. In 2014, his great- >> grandchild took the interesting trinket to show her teacher and the >> rest, as they say, is history (perhaps). The disc has come to be >> called the 'Curmsun disc'. >> >> Why do we care? The disc contains a curious inscription, which if >> contemporary would be one of the oldest pieces of genealogical >> evidence regarding viking-era Scandinavia not found on a rune stone. >> >> Specifically it reads >> >> +ARALD >> CVRMSVN+ >> REX AD TAN >> ER+SCON+J >> VMN+CIV >> ALDIN+ >> >> Which has been interpreted as: Harald Gormson, King of Danes, >> Scania, Jomsborg, and Oldenburg (there are various alternative >> interpretations). There is some dispute as to whether it is >> authentic or a later forgery, and those in the 'authentic camp' all >> seem to have a different interpretation of when and why the disc >> was cast (it is agreed it was cast and not struck). >> >> Is anyone aware of any published scholarly analysis of this item? >> (hopefully not requiring me to learn Polish or Danish to read) The >> following two Academia.edu deposits appear respectable, but I am >> intereted in what the broader scholarly community is making of it. >> >> https://www.academia.edu/9647410/A_unique_object_from_Harald_Bluetooth_s_time._2015_ >> >> https://www.academia.edu/29233334/The_Curmsun_Disc_-_Harald_Bluetooth_s_Golden_Seal >> >> See also: http://www.thecurmsundisc.com/ >> > > You may have to wait a while yet - according to Karen Schousboe in > November 2014 (here: http://www.medievalhistories.com/harold-bluetooths-talisman-sensational-find-fake/) > , "However, the field is decidedly not covered and we still lack a > more detailed technical and philological examination by scholars and > scientists." > > With something as fishy as this object, experts may be in no hurry > to take a plunge. > > Peter Stewart > > > > > From: [email protected] > Date: 10 May 2017 02:06:19 BST > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: John Heart, son of David Heart and Jean Mowat, > descendant of James V of Scotland > > > Rev. William and Katherine Craighead Homes of Martha's Vineyard had > a quite numerous progeny, with at least the following descendants > (or spouses) covered in entries in the _Dictionary of American > Biography_. > > Henry Augustus Homes > Arthur Tappan > Benjamin Tappan > Eli Todd Tappan > John Henry Wright > Lewis Tappan > Henry Chandler Bowen > David Tappan Stoddard > Rufus Wilmot Griswold (the "frenemy" and literary executor of E.A. > Poe) > William McCrillis Griswold > > Additionally, I think the wife of Henry Varnum Poor, of the family > behind Standard & Poors, was a descendant. > > >

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 3:27:29 PM UTC+10, Peter Stewart wrote: > On 10/05/2017 2:41 PM, Hans Vogels wrote: > > The minimum marriage age for girls by medieval Canon law was 12 years with > > the restriction that the girl in question reached puberty. If Gisela was > > 14/15 at the time of her first marriage and being born at the end of the > > '80, a first marriage ca.1002 is not troublesome, being the year of the > > latest known mentioning of count Bruno. > > The timing of Bruno's death is a vexed issue - he is usually identified > as the Bruno whose murder in his own home some time before was brought > up in the context of a crime committed by Thietmar of Merseberg's nephew > Werner in November 1014. Thietmar himself was present on 14 November > 1014 when Heinrich II was tasking counsel on the matter. I should have checked the details - Werner was a cousin, not nephew, of Thietmar (who called him his 'nepos'), and the date on which Thietmar was present with Heinrich II was 10 November, the day before Werner died (from his injuries in trying to abduct a second wife) on 11 November 1014. And I should have added, directly to the point made by Hans, that Werner's mother Godila was aged 12 (in her 13th year) when he was born. Thietmar states this in his chronicle, here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000689.html?pageNo=176 ("Liutharius ... quandam matronam Godilam nomine ... sibi in coniugem desponsavit et acquisivit, quae peperit ei in tertio decimo aetatis suae anno primogenitum, patris sui nomine appellans Wirinharium"). Peter Stewart

Have you looked in the Manorial Documents Register at Kew, Geraldine? - it lists 58 documents relating to manors in Pitstone, at least some of which seem to relate to Neyrnuts manor (latterly called Narnetts or Nernyatts, it seems): http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F241869 Matt Tompkins ________________________________________ From: [email protected] Sent: 12 May 2017 16:07 Hello David I believe I am purchasing the Lordship and wonder whether you were able to find any information out about Pitstone Neyrnut other that what is known by Manorial? I particulraly interested in any old maps or documents showing boundaries, But anything you have found out would be of great interest to me. Kind regards Geraldine Bridgewater

Some of those records having to do with Ashridge are at Hertford.