A cottager. Here's the OED definition. DSH ----------------------------------------------- coterell 1 Feudal Antiq. Also cotterell, -ill. [a. OF. coterel, med.L. coterellus, dim. of OF. cotier, med.L. cotarius, coterius, the occupant of a cota or cot. Cf. coterie.] A cottar, a cottager. [c 1086 Domesday Bk. (Du Cange), Septem villani quisque de una virgata, & 16 coterelli, & 2 servi. 1289 Charter in Kennett Par. Antiq. I. 439 Una cum villanis, coterellis, eorum catallis, serviciis, sectis et sequelis.] 1393 Langl. P. Pl. C. x. 97 (MSS. G & I) These were almes?to comfortie suche coterels [other MSS. cotyers]. Ibid. 193 (MS. I) As coterels þei lybben. 1440 Promp. Parv. 96/1 Coterelle. 1560 in Crossraguel Chart. (1886) I. 120 His and thair subtennentis, cottrallis, servandis, and assignayes. 1866 Macm. Mag. XIII. 252 Besides these villains there are eight coterells or cottagers, four of whom are women and probably widows. 1866 Rogers Agric. & Prices I. iv. 75 There are nine coterells, each holding a cottage, and most of them an acre of land. ¶Applied (erroneously) to the tenement. 1617 Minsheu Ductor, Coshe or Coterell in old English, is the same that a Cottage, or a little house. [Hence in Phillips 1657-1706.] c 1640 J. Smyth Lives Berkeleys (1883) I. 193 Each Copiholder of a yard land, halfe yard land, farrundle, and Cotterell. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lux et Veritas et Libertas "It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals] (1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956) wrote in message news:[email protected] I'm having trouble with the phrase 'Rents of coterels by the year' in the Cartulary of Ramsey Abbey. I believe the rental amount of 'duo solidi, sex denarii; duo altilia' to be in modern terms '2s 6d and 2 chickens (?)' but I don't know what a coterel is. I didn't come up with anything with google or an online dictionary. Perhaps it's the spelling. Also as this is a book of charters to the abbey, would this be a grant of the income from a coterel that the donor owns or is this rental that he is paying for a coterel that the abbey owns? Whatever a coterel is. Thanks.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 9:36:51 AM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote: > On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Brian Hessick wrote: > > The will of Peter (or Piers) Drayton of St. Michael Cornhill, London, written in 1518, and proven 2 August 1518. He was son and heir of Robert Drayton of St. Mildred Poultry, London, by his (1st) wife Jane d/o Piers (or Peter) Peckham Esq., of Denham, Bucks. , Peter Drayton died in 1518. His sister Jane, wid. of (1st) Richard Lucy and (2nd) William Wriothesley, York Herald, became heir. Religious affiliation: Catholic. > > > > PROB 11/19/121 > > > > In the name of God, and our Lady, and my patron St. Michael, I, Peter DRAYTON clerk, being of perfect memory and good mind, thanks to God, make this my last will and testament. First, I bequeath my soul to the mercy of God; and my body to be buried in the chancel of St. Michael’s church in Cornhill at the coming in of the door of the quere*, or else in any other place as God pleases to dispose. Also, I give to buy an altar cloth to the high altar, £6 13s 4p. Also, I give to be distributed amongst poor people within my parish, £6 13s 4p willing that poor householders and most impotent persons shall be principally relieved by it. And the funeral costs discharged and all my debts paid, I will that my sister Jane YORK widow, shall have the one half of the residue of my goods, and the other half to be distributed equally to her three children, Thomas, Anne, and Edward, by her discretion so that they be ruled by her, or else to obtain no part of it but all to be hers freely. And I will that if they be ruled by her that then Anne, her daughter, have her portion at the time of her marriage or else at the age of 21 years; and Thomas and Edward, her sons, at the age of 24 years, or else sooner as she shall please. And if that any of them depart this world afore they have received their portion, then I will that the said portion shall be freely pertaining to Jane, my sister (their mother) aforenamed. And I ordain the said Jane YORK widow, my sister, sole and only exex of this my last will and testament. In witness of the which I have written this testament and subscribed it the year of our Lord 1518. > > > > The testament of the abovesaid deceased, having etc., was proved before the Lord at Lambeth on the 2nd day of August Anno Domini 1518, by the oath of Jane YORK widow, the exex named in the same testament, for that the same exex expressly refused to assume the burden of the execution of the said testament, and administration was granted of the goods and debts of the said deceased to the foresaid Jane YORK by way of an intestacy, sworn on the Holy Gospels to well and faithfully admin, and to exhibit a full inventory before the Feast of St. Bartholomew the Apostle next to come, and also to render a plain and true account. > > > What makes you think that this Jane was the mother of Thomas Wriothesley? See “The Wriothesley Tomb in Titchfield Church: Its Effigial Statues and Heraldry”, by Benjamin W. Greenfield, published in Hampshire Field Club and Archaeological Society, Papers and Proceedings, vol. 1 no. 3 (1889), pp. 65ff (particularly the folded pedigree following page 82). This source is available via Google Books, but the folded pedigree containing the pertinent information was carelessly scanned by Google and is unreadable.

But not only do you have to ignore the ages in the IPMs of his nieces Elizabeth and Eleanor in 1376: "aged 24 years and more" and "aged 30 years and more" His age is given as "aged 50 and more" in the IPM of Gerard Braybroke in 1403. I don't see how you can argue that he is the Nicholas Wodhull, executor of his brother John in 1348, who had to of been born by 1327. On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:45:52 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > Specifically, Hansen cites a single pedigree, created some 100 years after the fact, used in a few legal battles amongst the same group of individuals, legal battles which have been included in the Tropenell Cartulary. > > For the time period you'd actually expect to find Thomas, the cartulary entries have no sign of him. Those entries have the same individuals found in the IPMs. > > If you follow all the primary records (ignoring IPM birth estimates), you seem to end up with a Nicholas that looks like this ... > > Born (bef 1328) > Age 21+: Executor to his brother's will (1349, assuming adult by this time) > Age 38+: Marries Margaret Foxcrote (1366, and they receive her inheritance) > Age 48+: Inherits from his nieces (1376) > Age 52+: Sheriff of Wiltshire (1380) > Age 55+: No longer sheriff of Wiltshire (1383) > Age 82+: Dies (1410) > > ... an individual who seems to live quite long, but a possible timeline, if we ignore the IPM birth estimates. He would be almost 20 years older than the closest IPM estimate of 1346, or before. If he were somehow an executor as a minor, he'd still need to be born by 1336, when the father dies, making the closest estimate still a decade off. The first question, I guess, would be ... how accurate we should expect IPM birth estimates for heirs, to be? If there's no surprise if they aren't accurate, then there's no real problem.

On Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Dcrdcr4 wrote: > Does anyone have any information on the White family of Farnham, Surrey and > South Warnborough, Hants. I am interested in this line: > > 1. Robert White, of Farnham, merchant of the Staple of Calais, married Alice > > 2. John White, Gent., of Farnham and South Warnborough, died 1469, married > Eleanor, daughter of Robert Hungerford, Lord Hungerford. She married (2nd) > 1470, Sir William Tyrrell, Knt., of Warley, Essex, and (3rd) by 1475, Sir Henry > Fitz Lewis of Nevendon, Essex and London. > > 3. Robert White, of Farnham and South Warnborough, born c. 1456, died 1518, > married Margaret Gainsford > > 4. Margaret White, married John Kirton, and her sister, Anne White, married > Nicholas Tichborne.

On Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Dcrdcr4 wrote: > Does anyone have any information on the White family of Farnham, Surrey and > South Warnborough, Hants. I am interested in this line: > > 1. Robert White, of Farnham, merchant of the Staple of Calais, married Alice > > 2. John White, Gent., of Farnham and South Warnborough, died 1469, married > Eleanor, daughter of Robert Hungerford, Lord Hungerford. She married (2nd) > 1470, Sir William Tyrrell, Knt., of Warley, Essex, and (3rd) by 1475, Sir Henry > Fitz Lewis of Nevendon, Essex and London. > > 3. Robert White, of Farnham and South Warnborough, born c. 1456, died 1518, > married Margaret Gainsford > > 4. Margaret White, married John Kirton, and her sister, Anne White, married > Nicholas Tichborne.

Specifically, Hansen cites a single pedigree, created some 100 years after the fact, used in a few legal battles amongst the same group of individuals, legal battles which have been included in the Tropenell Cartulary. For the time period you'd actually expect to find Thomas, the cartulary entries have no sign of him. Those entries have the same individuals found in the IPMs. If you follow all the primary records (ignoring IPM birth estimates), you seem to end up with a Nicholas that looks like this ... Born (bef 1328) Age 21+: Executor to his brother's will (1349, assuming adult by this time) Age 38+: Marries Margaret Foxcrote (1366, and they receive her inheritance) Age 48+: Inherits from his nieces (1376) Age 52+: Sheriff of Wiltshire (1380) Age 55+: No longer sheriff of Wiltshire (1383) Age 82+: Dies (1410) ... an individual who seems to live quite long, but a possible timeline, if we ignore the IPM birth estimates. He would be almost 20 years older than the closest IPM estimate of 1346, or before. If he were somehow an executor as a minor, he'd still need to be born by 1336, when the father dies, making the closest estimate still a decade off. The first question, I guess, would be ... how accurate we should expect IPM birth estimates for heirs, to be? If there's no surprise if they aren't accurate, then there's no real problem.

Jason Clark and I are trying to work out a little problem with this Wodhull line. It would seem straight forward tracing IPMs. John Wodhull - died 1296, son and heir Thomas 23 yo https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387812#page/n263/mode/2up Thomas Wodhull (1272-1304) – died 1304, son and heir John 1 year 17 weeks old https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387820#page/n185/mode/2up John Wodhull (1302-1336) - died 1336, son and heir John 16 yo https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387861#page/n63/mode/2up John Wodhull (c1320-1348) – died 1348, son and heir John 5 ½ yo https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387879#page/n139/mode/2up John Wodhull (1342-1367) – Died 1367, 2 daughters and co-heirs Elizabeth 3 yo & Eleanor 2 yo https://archive.org/stream/cu31924011387903#page/n187/mode/2up Here is where the problem comes when. When Elizabeth and Eleanor both die underage in 1376/7, their heir was their great-uncle Nicholas Wodhull. He was called “Nicholas de Wodhull, aged 24 years and more, uncle of John their father.” And “Nicholas de Wodhull, aged 30 years and more, brother of John father of John de Wodhull their father.” The problem is, there is no way the brother of their grandfather was born c1352 when his supposed father died in 1336. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol14/pp277-288 Charles Hanson wrote a long article on the Wodhull family (The Genealogist, vol. 7 (1986):28-29.). He solves this problem by saying Nicholas was not a brother of their grandfather, but rather his nephew. He says the grandfather John Wodhull (1320-1348) had a brother Thomas and Nicholas was a son of this Thomas. Thomas Wodhull (1272-1304) | John (1302-1336) | . | ?|? John (1320-1348) Thomas (born about 1322) | | John (1342-1367) Nicholas (born 1352) | Eleanor&Elizabeth d. 1376 As evidence for the existence of this Thomas, Hanson cites the Tropenell Cartulary which includes a suit with testimony giving a long Wodhull descent: Manor of Little Dunsford granted to Thomas Wodhull by Harry Preiers (his father-in-law) Thomas Wodhull His son John Wodhull His son Thomas Wodhull His son John Wodhull d.s.p. His brother Nicholas Wodhull His son Richard Wodhull His brother Thomas Wodhull His son Thomas Wodhull His son John Wodhull (living at the time of the suit in 1471) https://archive.org/stream/tropenellcartul02davigoog#page/n374/mode/2up However this pedigree is clearly flawed: No John Wodhull died without issue, No Wodhull was ever directly succeeded by his brother. The first Thomas Wodhull had a son John, but his son and heir was John not Thomas. There is no evidence that the second Thomas Wodhull existed at all. There is evidence that the John who died in 1348 had a brother Nicholas, as he was the executor of his will. So, something is wrong in the IPMs of Eleanor and Elizabeth. 1. If their heir was Nicholas, brother of their grandfather, then Nicholas’ age cannot have been 24 years old as stated, and Hanson’s reconstruction is wrong. Could the translated dates from the original IPM be wrong? 2. If Nicholas was age 24 years old in 1376, then he cannot have been the brother of Elizabeth & Eleanor’s grandfather as stated. Could the translated relationship from the original IPM be wrong?

Yes, that's what I've discovered. Everything I've found online and through the archive are just like that. One will say Roger is Lewis' father and the next will say they are brothers. I've even found sources that list the incorrect wife, not Eleanor de Mowbray. It's frustrating, everyone copying everyone else instead of finding some documentation to prove one way or the other.

Correction to first post: The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser. 1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the 1.1.1 Hugh de Berges II, alias Hugh de Prestwold aka: Hugh de Loughborouh , he fls. 1176, He gifted extensive lands and also held land at Bawre, more exactly at "Wet-Berges with part of Barrow". 1.1.2 Anketin de Berges = Dionisia , nepohew of Ralph and Thurstan de Quineborough, and "overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter in question must have taken place after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date. 1.1.1.1 Anketin ( Anketil de Berges)= Rohese. He held the manor of Prestwold, and also held the Advowson of the church, which Anketin, son of Hugh de Prestwold, in or before the year 1228, gave to the prior and convent of the Gilbertine priory of Bullington in the county of Lincoln founded by Simon de Kyme (his conjectured cousin) 1.1.1.1.1 Elias de Prestwold -Lord of the manor of Prestwold. Confirmed the gift of the church of Prestwold to the church of Bullington witnessed by Phillip de Kyme. 1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Berges - Arch. Deacon of Berks. His heir was John Putrell. 1.1.1.1.1.2 Alice = Robert de Putrell 1.1.1.1.1.2.1 John Putrell - heir of William de Berges. 1.2 William, son of Anschetil(found in Lindsey Survey)= marries dau. of Waldin the Ingeniator (Artificer)found as "William brother of Ivo, son of Anschetil" in the Charters of Cecily of the Honor of Skipton.Held Friesthorp, and part of Langton at- Wragby in Lindsey Survey. William is also found as being William of Harewood, Yorks, in the charter. 1.2.1 Simon de Kyme fls. 1160 held "farm of Chester". - died c.1162. 1.3 Geoffrey, Dispensator of Earl Ranulph, 3rd Earl of Chester. Gifted the chapel of Bollington, Chester to St. Mary's York. 1.3.1 Thomas Dispensator d.c.1177/8 heir of his brother Elias Dispenser who had been enfeoffed of Anrseby in 1158, Hugh de Beauchamp. 1.4 Ivo de Alspath, Constable of the Honour of Skipton fee and sometimes Constable of Coventry for Earl of Chester. seem in Charters of Cecily. more to follow..... Robert Spencer

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Brian Hessick wrote: > The will of Peter (or Piers) Drayton of St. Michael Cornhill, London, written in 1518, and proven 2 August 1518. He was son and heir of Robert Drayton of St. Mildred Poultry, London, by his (1st) wife Jane d/o Piers (or Peter) Peckham Esq., of Denham, Bucks. , Peter Drayton died in 1518. His sister Jane, wid. of (1st) Richard Lucy and (2nd) William Wriothesley, York Herald, became heir. Religious affiliation: Catholic. > > PROB 11/19/121 > > In the name of God, and our Lady, and my patron St. Michael, I, Peter DRAYTON clerk, being of perfect memory and good mind, thanks to God, make this my last will and testament. First, I bequeath my soul to the mercy of God; and my body to be buried in the chancel of St. Michael’s church in Cornhill at the coming in of the door of the quere*, or else in any other place as God pleases to dispose. Also, I give to buy an altar cloth to the high altar, £6 13s 4p. Also, I give to be distributed amongst poor people within my parish, £6 13s 4p willing that poor householders and most impotent persons shall be principally relieved by it. And the funeral costs discharged and all my debts paid, I will that my sister Jane YORK widow, shall have the one half of the residue of my goods, and the other half to be distributed equally to her three children, Thomas, Anne, and Edward, by her discretion so that they be ruled by her, or else to obtain no part of it but all to be hers freely. And I will that if they be ruled by her that then Anne, her daughter, have her portion at the time of her marriage or else at the age of 21 years; and Thomas and Edward, her sons, at the age of 24 years, or else sooner as she shall please. And if that any of them depart this world afore they have received their portion, then I will that the said portion shall be freely pertaining to Jane, my sister (their mother) aforenamed. And I ordain the said Jane YORK widow, my sister, sole and only exex of this my last will and testament. In witness of the which I have written this testament and subscribed it the year of our Lord 1518. > > The testament of the abovesaid deceased, having etc., was proved before the Lord at Lambeth on the 2nd day of August Anno Domini 1518, by the oath of Jane YORK widow, the exex named in the same testament, for that the same exex expressly refused to assume the burden of the execution of the said testament, and administration was granted of the goods and debts of the said deceased to the foresaid Jane YORK by way of an intestacy, sworn on the Holy Gospels to well and faithfully admin, and to exhibit a full inventory before the Feast of St. Bartholomew the Apostle next to come, and also to render a plain and true account. What makes you think that this Jane was the mother of Thomas Wriothesley?

I would agree Vance. There is the small, ancient hamlet of Elrington, and Elrington Hall, about 4 miles west of Hexham, Northumberland, in the most beautiful, tranquil countryside setting. In fact, I'll be driving through it this afternoon. Yvonne -----Original Message----- From: Vance Mead [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 18 May 2017 05:54 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Robert Elrington Esq. of Hackney, Middx., and Kateryn Browne In 1448 in Common Pleas there was a Robert Elryngton, of Elryngton, Northumb, esquire. I think this must be East Elrington, about 25 miles west of Newcastle. Vance > > Elrington: > The ending of the surname (considering for both "ing" and "ton") suggests a place name. The suffix 'ing' (or ling) means being from a place, i.e. Earthling; and ton meaning town. These account for places such as Reading, Woking, Hastings, Nottingham etc., and also Milton, Brighton, Boston, etc. Many places combine both suffixes as is seen in Wellington, Washington, Durrington, Babington, Farlington, etc. > A good explanation for place names in England can be heard on The History of English Podcast, Ep. 30 "The Celtic Legacy". > > > > During this timeframe, I tend to think of England as three main tribes: Welsh, southern England (Anglo-Saxon), and northern England (Danelaw). Broadly speaking, these groups tend to marry with other families of their country. > > > There is a town in Yorkshire called Elvington, which is probably the etymology of the surname for this particular group of Elringtons. Also, note the marriages: > > Robert Elrington married Kateryn Browne (a family from the north) > Their children: > Dorothy, married John Darnall, Baron of the Exchequer (a family from > the north) Elizabeth, married Bartholomew Jekyll of Newington, Middx. > (a family from Lincolnshire) Anne, married (1st) ... Vaughan and (2nd) > William Lego of London (1. Welsh, 2. unknown) Ursula, married Martin > Massingberd (a family from Lincolnshire) Margaret, married Augustin > Massingberd (same family from Lincolnshire)

This is just a suggestion, intended to elicit discussion and perhaps proof, one way or the other (true / false). Duncan II, King of Scots, d. 1094 William FitzDuncan = Alice de Rumilly Amabel FitzDuncan = Reynold/ Reginald de Lucy Richard de Lucy = Ada de Morville Alice de Lucy = Alan de Multon Sir Thomas de Multon (assumed the name "de Lucy") = Isabel de Bolteby Alice de Lucy = Sir Guischard de Charron Joan de Charron = (2) Sir Richard de Willoughby Sir Edmund de Willoughby = Alice de Somerville Edmund Willoughby = Isabel Annesley Sir Hugh Willoughby = (1) Isabel Foljambe Margaret Willoughby = William Belgrave John Belgrave = Katherine Glenn/ Glene Richard Belgrave = Margery Cotton Dorothy Belgrave = (2) William Saunders Mary Saunders = John Sharpe Bridget Sharpe = Leonard Chester John Chester = Dorothy Hooker Leonard Chester = Mary Watts or Wade First generations, down to Richard Lucy (m. Ada de Morville) shown in this pdf from Cambridge University Press: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=21&ved=0ahUKEwiW_Z_xotfKAhWI8CYKHYOUBJg4FBAWCBswAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cambridge.org%2Fus%2Fdownload_file%2F225222%2F&usg=AFQjCNFMcvBviMKO5H9lOX0BcSPahDNrEg&bvm=bv.113034660,d.eWE&cad=rja The four generations from Reynold de Lucy to Thomas de Lucy (m. Isabel Bolteby) are shown in G. E. Cokayne, _Complete Peerage_, sub "Lucy." The marriage of Alice de Lucy to Sir Guischard de Charron is shown in this pedigree chart in the Northumberland county set (vol. 9, p. 251): https://archive.org/stream/historyofnorthum09nort#page/250/mode/2up The descent from Alice de Lucy (m. Charron) down to Sir Hugh Willoughby (m. Isabel Foljambe) is then shown in Leo's genealogics.org, apparently based on research by Robert O'Connor: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00262812&tree=LEO See also Thoroton, which shows the descent from Sir Richard Willoughby's second wife Joan Charron: https://books.google.ca/books?id=xD4uAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA209&dq=thoroton+willoughby+pole&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8s8qQoNfKAhXD4iYKHe9jBD4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=thoroton%20willoughby%20pole&f=false Simon Payling's _Political society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of Nottinghamshire_ also implies this link for the Willoughbys through Charron: https://books.google.com/books?id=VlBnAAAAMAAJ&q=%22had+purchased,+to+Edmund,+his+only+son+by+his+second+wife,+Joan+Charron%22&dq=%22had+purchased,+to+Edmund,+his+only+son+by+his+second+wife,+Joan+Charron%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9rZyL7PnTAhXCQiYKHUaCBXIQ6AEIIzAA The parents of Margaret Willoughby (m. Belgrave) are given as Hugh Willoughby and Isabel Foljambe in the Nottinghamshire Visitation: https://books.google.com/books?id=zS4EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA146&dq=annesley+willoughby]&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCq5eoitfKAhUCPCYKHRKLBXUQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=annesley%20willoughby]&f=false Also a few s.g.m. postings, such as: "Some sources show Sir Edmund de Willoughby as being married to a daughter of Sir R. Pole. This is incorrect. Sir Edmund de Willoughby was the only child of Sir Richard III de Willoughby (one time Chief Justice of the King's Bench) and his second wife Joan Charron (daughter of Sir Guichard III de Charron and Alice Lucy), widow of Sir Bertram I de Monboucher. Joan was married to Sir Richard de Willoughby by 11 November 1333 and Edmund was born shortly after this. Edmund was married to Alice de Somerville of Cossington co. Leicester daughter of James de Somerville." https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/alice$20lucy$20charron/soc.genealogy.medieval/z64wgKUg6Sw/HpYqniyIdM8J Doug had noted that if Guischard Charron's wife was in fact Alice de Lucy, there would be a Scottish royal line. There's also this snippet from a document showing that Sir Thomas de Lucy had the wardship of Guischard de Charron the younger (and then presumably married him to his own daughter): https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Receipt+in+French%2C+from+sir+Gwychard+de+Charron+to+sir+Thomas+de+Lucy%2C+of+part+payment+of+the+sum+in+which+sir+%22

Robert Elryngton appears 9 times in Inquisitions Post Mortem between 1419 and 1446. If these are all the same man, and the same person as in Common Pleas in 1448, them he would probably have been born between 1475 and 1495. http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/quick-search/?q=elryngton&rq=elryngton&exact=false

The following "conjectured" line of descent may be useful to those interested the Leisc. families of Berges and Prestwold which are one and the same. This is intended to show my latest finds and areas of interest as the Berges, Prestwold , Kyme and Despenser families do exhibit some interesting interactions. 1.Anschitillus Despenser of the Burton Charter which states he donated some land at Waterfall, Staffordshire. He is also likely the Anschetil de Castello "of the Castle". alive in 1114, who land at Waterfala, and Church Stretton, Staffordshire. The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser. 1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the "Overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter must have taken after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date. 1.1.1 Anketin de Berges = Dionisia 1.1.2 Hugh de Berges II, alais Hugh de Prestwold aka: Hugh de Loughborouh , he fls. 1176, He held land at Bawre, more exactly at "Wet-Berges with part of Barrow" 1.1.1.1 Anketin ( Anketil de Berges)= Rohese. He held the manor of Prestwold, and also held the Advowson of the church, which Anketin, son of Hugh de Prestwold, in or before the year 1228, gave to the prior and convent of the Gilbertine priory of Bullington in the county of Lincoln founded by Simon de Kyme (his cousin) 1.1.1.1.1 Elias de Prestwold -Lord of the manor of Prestwold. Confirmed the gift of the church of Prestwold to the church of Bullington witnessed by Phillip de Kyme. 1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Berges - Arch. Deacon of Berks. His heir was John Putrell. 1.1.1.1.1.2 Alice = Robert de Putrell 1.1.1.1.1.2.1 John Putrell - heir of William de Berges. 1.2 William, son of Anschetil(found Lindsey Survey)= dau. of Waldin the Ingeniator (Artificer)found as "William brother of Ivo, son of Anschetil" in the Charters of Cecily of the Honor of Skipton.Held Friesthorp, and part of Langton at- Wragby in Lindsey Survey. William is also found as being William of Harewood, Yorks, in the charter. 1.2.1 Simon de Kyme fls. 1160 held "farm of Chester". - died c.1162. 1.3 Geoffrey Dispensator of Earl Ranulph, 3rd Earl of Chester. Gifted the chapel of Bollington, Chester to St. Mary's York. 1.3.1 Thomas Dispensator d.c.1177/8 heir of his brother Elias Dispenser who had been enfeoffed of Anrseby in 1158, Hugh de Beauchamp. 1.4 Ivo de Alspath, Constable of the Honour of Skipton fee and sometimes Constable of Coventry for Earl of Chester. seem in Charters of Cecily. more to follow..... Robert Spencer

Earlier still, Robert Elryngton was one of the jurors at a Inquisition Post Mortem held in June 1431 in the Castle at Newcastle upon Tyne. http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-471/477

Hi Peter, your need for more accurate date for Alan de Elsfield is shown in the following book as brother of Richard de Elsfield from which see see when he was appointed the Constable of Bordeaux. In Great Britain. Public Record Office, H. C. Maxwell Lyte (Sir.) Kraus Reprint, 1971 - Great Britain for the years (1321-1324), Alan de Elsfield is shown in the index as appearing on pages, 136,318,and 319, and it is followed by "Richard his brother" who also appears on page 318. that gives you the same time period for both brothers. Source: Richard of Elsfield as Constable of Bordeaux, 1318-20 Esme Pole Stuart and Hilda Johnstone The English Historical Review Vol. 52, No. 205 (Jan., 1937), pp. 23-38 link to an excerpt: copy and paste! https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/LII/CCV/23/467434/Richard-of-Elsfield-as-Constable-of-Bordeaux-1318?redirectedFrom=fulltext Richard of Elsfeld, brother of Alan of Elsfeild served as the Constable of Boreaux, Gascony from 1318-1320. According to the book his time here went very badly. Robert

On Wednesday, July 30, 2003 at 11:03:30 AM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote: > Dear Newsgroup ~ > > The following is a new royal descent from King Henry II through the > Longford and Neville families which goes down to two colonial > immigrants, namely Thomas Bressey, of New England, and Elizabeth > Butler (or Boteler), wife of William Claiborne, of Virginia. The > documentation for this line will appear in my forthcoming book, > Plantagenet Ancestry. Please contact me privately at my e-mail > address below for information regarding ordering the book. > > There are doubtless other colonial immigrants who descend from the > Longford and Neville families covered below. If anyone has > information on such descents, I'd appreciate if they would post a > brief summary here on the newsgroup. > > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah > > E-mail: [email protected] > > > I. THOMAS BRESSEY LINE > > l. HENRY II, King of England, by a mistress, IDA _____. > > 2. WILLIAM LONGESPÉE, Knt., Earl of Salisbury, married ELA OF > SALISBURY. > > 3. IDA LONGESPÉE, married WALTER FITZ ROBERT, Knt., Baron of Little > Dunmow, Essex. > > 4. ELA FITZ WALTER, married WILLIAM DE ODDINGSELES, Knt., of Solihull, > co. Warwick. > > 5. IDA DE ODDINGSELES, married ROGER DE HERDEBURGH, Knt., of > Prilleston, Norfolk. > > 6. ELA DE HERDEBURGH, married WILLIAM LE BOTELER (or LE BOTILLER), > Knt., of Wem, co. Salop. > > 7. ALICE LE BOTELER, married NICHOLAS DE LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford, > co. Derby. > > 8. NICHOLAS DE LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford, co. Derby, married ALICE > DEINCOURT. > > 9. NICHOLAS LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford, co. Derby, married MARGERY > (or MARGARET) SULNEY. > > 10. ALICE LONGFORD, married ROBERT NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co. > Nottingham. > > 11. THOMAS NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co. Nottingham, married > ELIZABETH BABINGTON. > > 12. WILLIAM NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co. Nottingham, and Holt, co. > Leicester, married KATHERINE PALMER. > > 13. THOMAS NEVILLE, Esq., of Holt, co. Leicester, married ISABEL > GRIFFIN. > > 14. THOMAS NEVILLE, of Cotterstock and Cottingham, co. Northampton, > married ALICE WAUTON. > > Children of Thomas Neville, by Alice Wauton: > i. JANE NEVILLE [see next]. > ii.ANNE NEVILLE, married JOHN SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Bletsoe and > Keysoe, co. Bedford [see BUTLER-CLAIBORNE line]. > > 15. JANE NEVILLE, married WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN (alias SPICER), of > Normanton-on-Soar, co. Nottingham. > > 16. AMPHYLLIS CHAMBERLAIN, married THOMAS SHEPPARD, Gent., of Maulden, > Hockliffe, and Littlecote (in Stewkley), co. Bedford. > > 17. CONSTANCE SHEPPARD, married EDMUND BRESSEY, Gent., of Maulden and > Wootton, co. Bedford. > > 18. THOMAS BRESSEY, baptized at Maulden, co. Bedford 8 Nov. 1601, 2nd > son, linen draper of London, immigrated to New England with his 2nd > wife in 1634 (in 1641 styled in London as "Thomas Brasey, > linen-draper, in New England"), died before 1648. He married (1st) at > London by license dated 30 Jan. 1626/7 HANNAH HART. He married (2nd) > at St. Lawrence Jewry, London 4 Aug. 1631 PHEBE BISBY, daughter of > William Bisby, of London. Reference: NEHGR 112 (1958): 42–44. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > II. BUTLER-CLAIBORNE LINE > > 14. THOMAS NEVILLE, of Cotterstock and Cottingham, co. Northampton, > married ALICE WAUTON (see above for earlier generations). > > 15. ANNE NEVILLE, married JOHN SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Bletsoe and > Keysoe, co. Bedford. > > 16. CRESSETT SAINT JOHN, married JOHN BUTLER (or BOTELER), Esq., of > Tofte and Lorings (both in Sharnbrook), and Souldrop, co. Bedford. > > 17. JOHN BUTLER(or BOTELER), Esq., of Little Birch, Essex, married > JANE ELLIOTT. > > 18. ELIZABETH BUTLER (or BOTELER), born before 1612, living 1 March > 1668/9, married about 1635 WILLIAM CLAIBORNE, Esq. (living March > 1676/7), of Crayford on Isle of Kent, Cheaspeake Bay, and New Kent, > Virginia, Surveyor of the Virginia Colony, member of the Council, > Treasurer and Secretary of the Colony of Virginia, justice of Accomac, > York & Northumberland Counties, Virginia. > References: N.M. Nugent, Cavaliers and Pioneers 1 (1979): 165. Gens. > of Virginia Fams. from VMHB 2 (1981): 1–70. Gens. of Virginia Fams. > from W&M Q. 1 (1982): 841–842. A.L. Jester, Adventurers of Purse and > Person (1987): 184–191. Just wondering, I have looked all through this line on Geni.com and tried to connect Elizabeth Butler Claiborne to King Henry II and what they have is completely different. Is what is in here more accurate?

On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 23:51:41 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote: > Dear Newsgroup ~ > > Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 518–520 (sub Marmion) has a good account of Sir John Marmion, 1st Lord Marmion, who died in 1322. Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided: > > "He married Isabel." END OF QUOTE. > > The source given for this limited information is a record taken from the Patent Rolls, cited by Complete Peerage as follows: > > "On 23 July 1310 he [John Marmion] had license to alienate in mortmain a messuage, two bovates of lands, and 44s. 4d. rent in Winteringham and Beelsby for the maintenance of a chaplain to celebrate divine service daily in the chapel of St. Nicholas, Winteringham, for the souls of the grantor, Isabel his wife, of Alexander Peck, and their ancestors and successors." END OF QUOTE. > > The actual record may be viewed in Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1307-1313 (1894), pg. 271, which may be viewed at the following weblink: > > http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarpatentr08offigoog#page/n279/mode/2up > > Beyond this, Complete Peerage provides no further particulars regarding Isabel, wife of Sir John Marmion. > > VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 54 cites British Library, Additional Manuscript 39,373, folio 181, which refers to a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1301, in which Ralph de Playz is described as the former husband of Isabel, wife of John Marmion. By this source, we learn that Isabel, wife of John Marmion, was previously the wife of Ralph (or Ranulph) de Plaiz, of Iford, Sussex, who died shortly before 6 Nov. 1283. > > Insofar as when the marriage of Sir John Marmion and his wife, Isabel, took place, it appears that they married sometime after 14 September 1287, when Isabel, widow of Ralph de Plaiz, sued the king in a plea regarding presentation to the church of Great Oakley, Essex. References: > > Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1256, image 220f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/Just1/Just1no1256/aJUST1no1256fronts/IMG_0220.htm). > Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1256, image 222f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/Just1/Just1no1256/aJUST1no1256fronts/IMG_0222.htm). > > Sir John Marmion and his wife, Isabel, were presumably married by 1292, as their son and heir, John Marmion, was born about 1292, he being aged 30 at his father's death in 1322. > > Feudal Aids 2 (1900): 129 records that in 1303 John Marmion held the manor of Great Oakley, Essex, "in the name of dower" of Richard de Plays, son and heir of Giles de Plays. See the following weblink: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=8SgMAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA129 > > From these records, we learn that Sir John Marmion and his wife, Isabel, were definitely married before 1303. > > Complete Peerage does not indicate that Isabel Marmion was assigned dower following the death of Sir John Marmion in 1322. But she clearly survived him, as in Trinity term 1325 Isabel, widow of John Marmyoun, sued John Marmyoun regarding services demanded by Alexander de Fryvill and Joan his wife, Ralph le Botiller, and Henry Hillary and Joan his wife for a tenement in Willingham, Lincolnshire. See the following weblink: > > Court of Common Pleas, CP40/257, image 13d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no257/bCP40no257dorses/IMG_0013.htm). > > In Trinity term 1327 [and Trinity and Michaelmas terms 1328] Richard de Amcotes, parson of the church of Scawby, Lincolnshire, and Robert de Loudham, executors of the will of Isabel Marmyun, sued Emma Cerf, of Cathreton, in the Court of Common Pleas in a Lincolnshire plea regarding the detention of chattels. Reference: Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 325, which may be viewed at the following weblink: > > https://archive.org/stream/indexofplacitade01newy#page/324/mode/2up > > See also Court of Common Pleas, CP40/270, image 190f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no270/aCP40no270fronts/IMG_0190.htm). > > From the above lawsuits, we learn that Isabel, Lady Marmion was living in Trinity term 1325, and that she died testate sometime before Trinity term 1327. > > For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir John Marmion, 1st Lord Marmion, and his wife, Isabel: > > Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Henry Corbin, Thomas Dudley, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Joseph & Mary Need, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Thomas Rudyard, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna Somerset, James Taylor, Margaret Touteville. > > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah Dear Douglas, If Isabel survived her husband who died in 1322, do you have any idea who this lady was? 1 April 1314, Order to the escheator on this side Trent to take into the king's hand the lands late of Isabel Marmyon, deceased, tenant in chief. Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 2, Edward II: 1307-1319 (1912), 192. Regards, John

On 17/05/2017 9:51 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: > In 1987 Eduard Hlawitschka quoted a source in which a daughter of > count Liupold and Ida of Ottenberg Make that Ida of Ottersberg - goodness knows what my fingers were thinking. Peter Stewart

In 1448 in Common Pleas there was a Robert Elryngton, of Elryngton, Northumb, esquire. I think this must be East Elrington, about 25 miles west of Newcastle. Vance > > Elrington: > The ending of the surname (considering for both "ing" and "ton") suggests a place name. The suffix 'ing' (or ling) means being from a place, i.e. Earthling; and ton meaning town. These account for places such as Reading, Woking, Hastings, Nottingham etc., and also Milton, Brighton, Boston, etc. Many places combine both suffixes as is seen in Wellington, Washington, Durrington, Babington, Farlington, etc. > A good explanation for place names in England can be heard on The History of English Podcast, Ep. 30 "The Celtic Legacy". > > > > During this timeframe, I tend to think of England as three main tribes: Welsh, southern England (Anglo-Saxon), and northern England (Danelaw). Broadly speaking, these groups tend to marry with other families of their country. > > > There is a town in Yorkshire called Elvington, which is probably the etymology of the surname for this particular group of Elringtons. Also, note the marriages: > > Robert Elrington married Kateryn Browne (a family from the north) > Their children: > Dorothy, married John Darnall, Baron of the Exchequer (a family from the north) > Elizabeth, married Bartholomew Jekyll of Newington, Middx. (a family from Lincolnshire) > Anne, married (1st) ... Vaughan and (2nd) William Lego of London (1. Welsh, 2. unknown) > Ursula, married Martin Massingberd (a family from Lincolnshire) > Margaret, married Augustin Massingberd (same family from Lincolnshire)