On Saturday, 20 May 2017 00:29:32 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > According to: > Prestwold and its Hamlets > in Medieval Times By George F. Farnham, F.S.A. > > The family of de Berges is the same as Prestwold. > > The family who bore the name " of Prestwold " appear to have held the manor of Prestwold in the latter part at latest of the twelfth century. They bore for their > arms—Sable, a chevron Or, fretty Gules, between three garbs > Argent > > click here to view: its the 2nd version: > > https://coadb.com/surnames/prestwold-arms.html > > Robert Just as I had hoped that progress had been made on applying the same rules of evidence to mediaeval heraldry as are used in other branches of history including genealogy, we now seem to be going backwards again. With only a handful of exceptions, there is no evidence of heraldry in England during the twelfth century except amongst some, but not all, of the rank of earl. There is no evidence of the quoted arms before the Ashmolean Roll c.1334 and those rolls that are based on that collection. And please, please, please, do not use that website again to discover anything. They know even less about mediaeval heraldry than you do, and only want to fleece gullible members of the public. Peter Howarth

You can search the NYPL catalog here: https://catalog.nypl.org/#

Certificates of homage are described here: http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/blog/the-certificates-of-homage-some-preliminary-thoughts/ On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 5:06:08 AM UTC+3, Chris Hampson wrote: > I've recently been looking at the Swynnerton family of Staffordshire, who were pretty well documented by one Canon Bridgeman. While doing general searches on the National Archives website I came across this http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6553377. Now, John son of John d.1408, proved his age in 1429, so that is one of the John's involved. But he died the following year and his successor was his uncle Thomas. There is no cousin John in the pedigrees I've looked at. So, now I have a bit of a mystery. Would this document be likely to have anything that might help explain this? Or is this just going to be another case of a scribe with too many Johns?

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 7:47:04 PM UTC-7, Chris Hampson wrote: > On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 9:19:34 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > > > According to WorldCat, the New York Public Library has a copy - the ONLY copy listed in WorldCat. > > Can you give me a link to the entry? I haven't been able to find it. It's hard to find, but here: https://www.worldcat.org/title/armorial-bearings-of-jane-beaufo/oclc/41207352&referer=brief_results

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 9:19:34 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > According to WorldCat, the New York Public Library has a copy - the ONLY copy listed in WorldCat. Can you give me a link to the entry? I haven't been able to find it.

I've recently been looking at the Swynnerton family of Staffordshire, who were pretty well documented by one Canon Bridgeman. While doing general searches on the National Archives website I came across this http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6553377. Now, John son of John d.1408, proved his age in 1429, so that is one of the John's involved. But he died the following year and his successor was his uncle Thomas. There is no cousin John in the pedigrees I've looked at. So, now I have a bit of a mystery. Would this document be likely to have anything that might help explain this? Or is this just going to be another case of a scribe with too many Johns?

According to: Prestwold and its Hamlets in Medieval Times By George F. Farnham, F.S.A. The family of de Berges is the same as Prestwold. The family who bore the name " of Prestwold " appear to have held the manor of Prestwold in the latter part at latest of the twelfth century. They bore for their arms—Sable, a chevron Or, fretty Gules, between three garbs Argent click here to view: its the 2nd version: https://coadb.com/surnames/prestwold-arms.html Robert

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 2:31:29 PM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the > Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin > it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the > "Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing > little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy > requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which > to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees > something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree. Over-the-top rhetoric aside, there is nothing special about this line, and no requirement for a different approach. Conjecture is part of the standard approach, but it should not be made on a whim and it should be clearly and explicitly marked and explained as such (and I mean the specific connections, not just a label at the top calling the whole tree conjectural without indicating what is and what isn't). Such conjectures tend to take on a life of their own, even when well marked, so one should exercise extreme care in presenting them, and absolutely should make it abundantly what is deduction and what is speculation and what is outright guesswork. taf

Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the "Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree. By the way, you say only two sons have been identified Geoffrey and ivo, that is not an accurate statement. William is named with Ivo in the charters of Cecily , Lady of Skipton. Ivo was the Constable of the Skipton fee and sometime Constable of the Castle of Coventry. John, you mentioned that two nephew's of Ivo de Alspath have been identified, perhaps suggestiing that Anschetil Dispenser had an otherwise unknown dau. I'm just wondering if you have ever shared this information before this post? Thank you Robert

Hello all. I have an entry from the Welsh Rolls for 3rd March 1283, referring to one Roger de Ripariis or Riparia being excused from sending supplies to the army in Wales due to his charitable works. I know a little about a Riparia family in Yorkshire in this era but cannot find any more information on Roger. Can anyone help please? Below is the reference: 'As the king has heard much good said of Roger de Ripariis by trustworthy men and that his com and other goods scarcely suffice for the maintenance of himself and his household, hospitality and other works of mercy, which he frequently and willingly performs, he wills that nothing shall be taken from Roger's com or other goods for the use of the king or of others by reason of the present war of Wales, and order is given to all bailiffs, etc. in Ireland to cause Roger to have peace in this matter so far as in them lies. These letters shall last during the king's pleasure.'

Interest in the Pontifex family is an esoteric taste, but for the select few I would like to post the following. There weren't a lot of them, just 60 or 70 each time in the census in the mid-19th century. They probably descended from a single source. In the 16th to 18th centuries they lived in Bucks, in West Wycombe, Iver, Burnham, etc. I don't know the origin of the family name. A couple of times I have seen "Bishop alias Pontifex" in Common Pleas records, but I think this may have been a scribal error. I don't have proof of family connections, but arranged chronologically by approximate date of birth they are: Born 1400-1410 Richard Pontifex, of Wingrave, Bucks, husbandman, found in Common Pleas 1432-1465. Possibly this is father and son, since they are over a period of 30 years. Born 1410-1420 William Pontifex, of London, girdler, in the will of his uncle Roger Celle, of St Albans, Herts, chaplain, 1446. Born 1440-1460 John Pontifex, of East Claydon, Bucks, carter or husbandman, in Common Pleas 1489-1512 William Pontifex, priest, of West Ham, Essex, in Common Pleas 1498-1505, will 1518 Born 1460-1480 Robert Pontifex, of East Claydon, carrier or husbandman, Common Pleas in 1505-1512 William Pontifex, of East Claydon, husbandman, Common Pleas 1509, died at Leighton Buzzard, Beds, 1523 (Letters & Papers, Henry VIII) Born 1500-1520 John Pontifex, of Hughenden, Bucks, cook, wife Joan. Common Pleas 1551-1553 Born 1530-1540 John Pontifex, of West Wycombe, Bucks, will 1589, wife Alice, children William and Edward.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 9:19:34 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote: > According to WorldCat, the New York Public Library has a copy - the ONLY copy listed in WorldCat. Thanks, at least I am in the same country. Perhaps I can get it on inter-library loan.

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 7:04:59 AM UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > I have just read the 2006 postings on Sir John Hawkwood which are interesting to me because they mention castle Hedingham and the De Veres. John De Liston was supposed to have trained John Hawkwood and it is believed they were probably family. I trace my name back to the marriage of John Alliston and Rachel Fyrmyn in Sudbury 1606 and I think John was the son of John Alliston And Mary Payne from Castle Hedingham who married in Castle Hedingham 1577 ( the 1578 births page in ST Nicholas church have been destroyed so I cannot confirm ). When I did a DNA match both the De Vere and Liston names came up which following on from the earlier post does suggest that they Hawkwood, De Vere , Liston and now Alliston all had family connections. My Liston match had a time to common ancestor of between 600 and 900 years and he was from Edinburgh Scotland. The family is mentioned in the book https://archive.org/details/memoirsofmyances00mcca which says they came up down from Essex at the time of William I. Liston is a village near Sudbury and the Liston family held the manor there until the mid 1300's, They held it from De Vere.

On Thursday, 18 May 2017 16:57:31 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > The following "conjectured" line of descent may be useful to those interested the Leisc. families of Berges and Prestwold which are one and the same. > > This is intended to show my latest finds and areas of interest as the Berges, Prestwold , Kyme and Despenser families do exhibit some interesting interactions. > > 1.Anschitillus Despenser of the Burton Charter which states he donated some land at Waterfall, Staffordshire. He is also likely the Anschetil de Castello "of the Castle". alive in 1114, who land at Waterfala, and Church Stretton, Staffordshire. > > The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser. > > 1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the "Overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter must have taken after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date. <snip> Dear Robert, As you rightly point out, there is no evidence at all that Hugh de Berges had any connection with the family of Despenser. There is also no evidence at all that Hugh de Berges and Hugh son of Ansketil were the same person, so I am not sure that "conjectured" is the correct word for this descent. Fantastic may be a better description. If we look at the very scanty contemporary evidence for the early Despensers, the only record for Ansketil occurs in a survey of the properties held by Burton abbey, Staffordshire, compiled about 1126 [1]. The following land is listed amongst the abbey's possessions: "In Waterfala sunt ij bouate terre quas dedit nobis Aschetillus dispensator quietas & solutas ab omni seruicio & posuit super altare per unum cultellum, & hoc idem concesit in capitulo Galfridus filius eius & recepti sunt ipsi & vxor eiusdem Aschetilli defuncta in communione fraterne societatis & oracionum & beneficiorum, etc." [2]. Ansketil Despenser died before the date of this survey and his gift of 2 bovates of land in Waterfall was confirmed by his son Geoffrey and his wife who were accepted into the fraternity of the abbey. This strongly suggests that Geoffrey was the eldest son. Geoffrey certainly had a brother named Ivo (de Alspath). Between 1145 and 1147, "Gaufrido Disp[ensator] and Iuone fratri suo," were witnesses to a grant by Ranulf II earl of Chester to Robert earl of Leicester [3]. Between 1155 and 1167, Ivo de Hallespad' [Alspath] and Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother witnessed a charter of Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester to the abbey of Cumba [4]. There is no other contemporary evidence that Geoffrey Despenser had any other brothers, although there is a possibility that he had a sister. The charter of Ivo de Alspath granting the church of Alspath to the abbey of Coventry was witnessed by Robert and Ranulf [Rondulpho] his nephews [5]. After 1161, Thomas Despenser, son and heir of Geoffrey Despencer granted and confirmed to Garendon abbey, 10 bovates of land in Burton with the consent of his overlord for this land, Ansketil de Berges. "x bovatas terre, cum omnibus pertinentiis suis, in campo de Burtona, concessu Asketilli de Berges domini mei de eadem terra" [6]. The fact that Thomas Despenser was holding this land in Burton of Ansketil de Berges is not proof of any relationship betwen them other than that of landlord and tenant. It certainly does not justify your conjectured genealogy. As for Hugh son of Ansketil. He witnessed a charter of Ranulf de Gernon, Earl of Chester (not Richard, Earl of Chester) which Barraclough dated between 1130 and 1140 [7]. He may be the same person as Hugh son of Ansketil who accounted for his father's lands in Essex in the pipe roll of 1130 [8]. Regards, John 1. John Horace Round, The Burton Abbey Surveys, English Historical Review, 20 (1905), 275-289. 2. C. G. O Bridgeman, ed., "The Burton Abbey Twelfth Century Surveys," Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Third Series 1915 (1918), 225. 3. Report on the Manuscripts of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq., vol. 1, Historical Manuscripts Commission (London, 1928), 67. 4. Shakespeare Centre Library and Archive, Gregory of Stivichall, DR10/192. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3e2191de-6b47-4c4d-8b99-c7da14930106 5. William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 3, 194: Monastery of Coventry, No. XIII. 6. John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester, vol. 3, Part 2, (1804), 817. 7. Geoffrey Barraclough, ed., The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237, Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, 126 (1988), 50, no. 35. 8. Joseph Hunter, ed., Magnum Rotulum Scaccarii vel Magnum Rotulum Pipæ de Anno Tricesimo-primo Regni Henrici Primi, Record Commission (1833), 59. https://archive.org/stream/magnumrotulumsc01huntgoog#page/n97/mode/1up

I'm having trouble with the phrase 'Rents of coterels by the year' in the Cartulary of Ramsey Abbey. I believe the rental amount of 'duo solidi, sex denarii; duo altilia' to be in modern terms '2s 6d and 2 chickens (?)' but I don't know what a coterel is. I didn't come up with anything with google or an online dictionary. Perhaps it's the spelling. Also as this is a book of charters to the abbey, would this be a grant of the income from a coterel that the donor owns or is this rental that he is paying for a coterel that the abbey owns? Whatever a coterel is. Thanks.

I have just read the 2006 postings on Sir John Hawkwood which are interesting to me because they mention castle Hedingham and the De Veres, I trace my name back to the marriage of John Alliston and Rachel Fyrmyn in Sudbury 1606 and I think John was the son of John Alliston And Mary Payne from Castle Hedingham who married in Castle Hedingham 1577 ( the 1578 births page in ST Nicholas church have been destroyed so I cannot confirm ). When I did a DNA match both the De Vere and Liston names came up which following on from the earlier post does suggest that they Hawkwood, De Vere , Liston and now Alliston all had family connections. My Liston match had a time to common ancestor of between 600 and 900 years and he was from Edinburgh Scotland. The family is mentioned in the book https://archive.org/details/memoirsofmyances00mcca which says they came up down from Essex at the time of William I. Liston is a village near Sudbury and the Liston family held the manor there until the mid 1300's, They held it from De Vere.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:57:02 PM UTC-7, Chris Hampson wrote: > On page 259 of Throckmorton's "A genealogical and historical account of the Throckmorton family in England and the United States", he refers to the "Armorial Bearings of Joan Beaufo" written by himself. Does anyone know where I can find this article? According to WorldCat, the New York Public Library has a copy - the ONLY copy listed in WorldCat.

i have tyrell/terrell in my family tree but not sure if i am that far back yet will check Dee Horn From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 2:10 PM Subject: Re: White family of Farnham, Surrey and South Warnborough, Hants On Thursday, January 21, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Dcrdcr4 wrote: > Does anyone have any information on the White family of Farnham, Surrey and > South Warnborough, Hants.  I am interested in this line: > > 1. Robert White, of Farnham, merchant of the Staple of Calais, married Alice > > 2. John White, Gent., of Farnham and South Warnborough, died 1469, married > Eleanor, daughter of Robert Hungerford, Lord Hungerford.  She married (2nd) > 1470, Sir William Tyrrell, Knt., of Warley, Essex, and (3rd) by 1475, Sir Henry > Fitz Lewis of Nevendon, Essex and London. > > 3. Robert White, of Farnham and South Warnborough, born c. 1456, died 1518, > married Margaret Gainsford > > 4. Margaret White, married John Kirton, and her sister, Anne White, married > Nicholas Tichborne. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Below is a link for a Middle English dictionary. For coterel it has cotter, lesser cotter or subtenant. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/ On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 6:52:45 AM UTC+3, [email protected] wrote: > I'm having trouble with the phrase 'Rents of coterels by the year' in the Cartulary of Ramsey Abbey. I believe the rental amount of 'duo solidi, sex denarii; duo altilia' to be in modern terms '2s 6d and 2 chickens (?)' but I don't know what a coterel is. I didn't come up with anything with google or an online dictionary. Perhaps it's the spelling. > > Also as this is a book of charters to the abbey, would this be a grant of the income from a coterel that the donor owns or is this rental that he is paying for a coterel that the abbey owns? Whatever a coterel is. > > Thanks.

On page 259 of Throckmorton's "A genealogical and historical account of the Throckmorton family in England and the United States", he refers to the "Armorial Bearings of Joan Beaufo" written by himself. Does anyone know where I can find this article?