The Craigheads have seemingly always been considered very respectable people in North Carolina and Tennessee. I notice that the father of Vice President John C. Calhoun married a Craighead daughter as his first wife (who was not the mother of John C., however).

I'm speaking about your idea that De Vere and Hawkwood also derive from the same stock in a general sense. All you really need is *one* De Vere or *one* Hawkwood to be the biological father, at any point in the line, to create this perception. That is why Autosomal DNA really clarifies the line.

On Wednesday, 24 May 2017 11:21:31 UTC+1, Rhys Howitt wrote: > I would be grateful for some pointers. I am resarching family history and apparently it has a heraldic dimension. The Hewitts of Killamarsh (/Hewet/Hewit/Huit etc) in the 1500s bore a shield with white lions and some wading birds (pewits presumably for a cant, or tyrwhits). In 1599 William Hewitt died and the heraldic procession used Gules, three owls and a chevron engrailed argent, which were apparently the ancient and correct arms of Hewet. > > The Dictionary of British Arms gives some references, which I would like to look up but have struggled to locate -- some armorials apparently have several names. Can anyone tell me (a) where I would find and (b) how I would access the armorials? They are LH “Letter H Roll” SOL MS476 c1520 aka Pedegrees Hereldry Armes painted and Inblason; XV “Wriothesley's Chevrons” c1525; SK “Starkey's Roll”. I gather none are available online. > > Rhys from Australia I'm afraid mediaeval heraldry does not have the facilities that are made available to genealogists, and accessing the sources you quote are likely to be so difficult that you will probably not bother. But here are the details anyway. As a preliminary point, the Dictionary of British Arms refers to these three sources under the sub-heading 'Gu chev betw 3 owls Arg', in other words the chevron is not treated as engrailed. It is possible that this is a mistake, but for it to have occurred three times is really not likely. The first reference is to the Letter H Roll (c.1520) no. 924, which is part of MS 476 at the Society of Antiquaries of London, Burlington House, Piccadilly, Mayfair, London W1J 0BE. The second reference is to Wriothesley's Chevrons (c.1525) Part I no.361, which is MS 4406 in the Norfolk Record Office, The Archive Centre, Martineau Lane, Norwich NR1 2DQ The third reference is to Starkey's Roll (c.1460) no. 856, the original of which has been lost and which, according to Wagner's CEMRA p 103, now exists as three different manuscripts: (a) MS. Gybbon's Ordinary of Arms, pp 227-83 (total of 1124 shields in trick) at the College of Arms, 130 Queen Victoria St, London EC4V 4BT (b) MS. Vincent 164, ff. 59b-83b (total of 771 shields in trick) also at the College of Arms (c) MS. 158, ff. 225-95 (total of 1124 shields in trick, but not exactly the same as (a)) at Queen's College, High St, Oxford OX1 4AW None of these manuscripts have been published, in print or on line. The Society of Antiquaries (an independent charity) and the Norfolk Record Office (run by Norfolk County Council) allow outside visitors by appointment; expect to provide evidence of identity (passport, driving licence) and current address (bank statement, utility bill). Queen's College normally also allow outside visitors, but they are in the process of moving their collections between now and the end of the Long Vacation in September. The College of Arms is unsupported from public funds and access to its records is therefore limited. However, the heralds do undertake searches in its records on payment of professional fees, and if an enquirer wishes to consult a particular manuscript 'appropriate arrangements can be made' (presumably for a price). As you can see, it would not be easy to look at any of these manuscripts (which are totally outside my period of interest). In comparison, genealogists are thoroughly spoiled! Peter Howarth

I would be grateful for some pointers. I am resarching family history and apparently it has a heraldic dimension. The Hewitts of Killamarsh (/Hewet/Hewit/Huit etc) in the 1500s bore a shield with white lions and some wading birds (pewits presumably for a cant, or tyrwhits). In 1599 William Hewitt died and the heraldic procession used Gules, three owls and a chevron engrailed argent, which were apparently the ancient and correct arms of Hewet. The Dictionary of British Arms gives some references, which I would like to look up but have struggled to locate -- some armorials apparently have several names. Can anyone tell me (a) where I would find and (b) how I would access the armorials? They are LH “Letter H Roll” SOL MS476 c1520 aka Pedegrees Hereldry Armes painted and Inblason; XV “Wriothesley's Chevrons” c1525; SK “Starkey's Roll”. I gather none are available online. Rhys from Australia

A Devon visitation makes him a son of Thomas Clifford: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/yale.39002002213917?urlappend=%3Bseq=209 And another work which discusses his genealogy in some detail puts him a further generation back, son of Robert, and brother to the above mentioned Roger: https://archive.org/stream/decontroversiai01scrogoog#page/n451/mode/1up Complete Peerage, (Vol III, page 292) says "Sir Lewis Clifford, K.G., whose curious will (1404) is given by Dugdale, and who is the reputed ancestor of the Barons Clifford of Chudleigh, was probably a br., but certainly not a son, of this Lord". The Lord being referred to is Roger de Clifford b. 10 July 1333, d. 12 July 1389, aged 56. Lewis did have a son Lewis. Nothing is known of what happened to him. Old pedigrees also often suggest he and his wife Eleanor had a son named William. For example see the Devonshire pedigree and Dugdale's Baronage. There are strong doubts about whether William is a son of Sir Lewis. The History of Parliament article for the MP Robert Clifford claims Lewis was even from a Devonshire branch of the Cliffords, and it and many other sources seem to accept it as likely (but not proven) that he was closely related to William Clifford who married Arnold Savage's daughter in Kent. There were similarities in the arms they bore, and also the Kent family used the name Lewis a lot. However, they do not seem to have ever been considered as potential heirs to Lewis's known daughter however.

AALT has now uploaded images of chancery cases for the entire term of Thomas Wolsey as Lord Chancellor (C1/378-C1/601, 1515-1529): http://aalt.law.uh.edu/ChanPro.html Nathan

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 3:14:32 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: > Possibly also the writer Thornton Wilder ... > > https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Tappan-Descendants-138 Here is a presentation of the role Rachel Craighead Caldwell played in the American Revolutionary War: https://books.google.com/books?id=LUoZUs4xg78C&pg=PA151 Rachel was a daughter of minister Alexander Craighead and granddaughter of Thomas and Margaret (Wallace) Craighead. Rachel was the grandmother of the female physician John mentioned earlier in this thread. For a biography of Rachel's father Alexander Craighead, see http://www.ncpedia.org/biography/craighead-alexander

Possibly also the writer Thornton Wilder ... https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Tappan-Descendants-138

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:17:38 PM UTC+1, wjhonson wrote: > Well then you do understand that all the Y is telling you, is that somewhere in your line, a biological father had a different surname, then you expect him to have. > > It doesn't tell you anything about how long ago that occurred. Except the surnames have the same origin, Liston and Alliston ( Al Liston) are derived from the manor of Liston in Essex. Other surname variations include Alston, Elliston, Allaston and Austyn. Names gradually change over the years like Chinese whispers.

Well then you do understand that all the Y is telling you, is that somewhere in your line, a biological father had a different surname, then you expect him to have. It doesn't tell you anything about how long ago that occurred.

Do the King of Jordan have Plantagenet ancestors by his mother? http://www.wargs.com/royal/muna.html

Gilbert Stuart's portrait of Mrs. Benjamin Tappan, a Homes descendant, and the ancestress of most of the Tappan line of descendants: https://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/Collection/art-object-page.52388.html

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:23:12 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: > Also ... architect Theophilus P. Chandler, educator and missionary George Washburn, and Major General Lewis Tappan Barney. > > https://books.google.com/books?id=tt4DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA492&dq=philander+washburn+homes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJxaqawITUAhXHOCYKHT6HBL8Q6AEIQjAF#v=onepage&q=philander%20washburn%20homes&f=false I believe the architect was an uncle of the Theophilus P. Chandler who had the Homes descent, so this is wrong. However, I believe one could add the California painters Isabella Homes (Bigelow) Kittredge and Daisy C. Kittredge. http://www.askart.com/artist/Isabella_Holmes_Kittredge/11004817/Isabella_Holmes_Kittredge.aspx http://www.askart.com/artist/Daisy_C_Kittredge/11004816/Daisy_C_Kittredge.aspx https://books.google.com/books?id=lcEKiggzDaEC&pg=PA285&dq=asahel+bigelow+dorcas+homes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbnqSQiobUAhVLhlQKHbbbCgcQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=asahel%20bigelow%20dorcas%20homes&f=false Also, very probably, the San Francisco newspaperman Henry D. Bigelow, associate of Ambrose Bierce and Hearst.

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 5:53:00 PM UTC+1, wjhonson wrote: > Are you referring to a Y-DNA test? > Or an Autosomal DNA test? Y DNA, autosomal would be too long ago.

On Tuesday, 23 May 2017 01:11:19 UTC+1, Jason Quick wrote: > There are a few high resolution rolls on this site too http://www.aspilogia.com > > > THE HERALD'S ROLL (The Fitzwilliam version) is an English roll of arms dating to c. 1270-80, consisting of 17 vellum membranes, now bound as a book of 39 leaves, each measuring 9.1" x 10.75", painted in color in the 15th century, illustrating 697 shields in 117 rows of 6 per row, with 1 shield over. The roll is now part of the Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Museum manuscript collection: MS. 297. > > SEGAR'S ROLL (Grenstreet 11; Papworth G) is an English roll of arms dating to about 1282. The original -- now lost -- measured 6.125" x 9' 4.75", and consisted of 212 shields in 53 rows of 4, with the names of the coresponding kings, princes, nobles, and knights above each shield. Several 17th century copies were made from the original. The following illustrations are based on the c.1600 color facsimile housed at the College of Arms in London -- Ga. MS. L14, Part I, ff. 26-31. > > GUILLIM'S ROLL (Grenstreet 18; Papworth J) is an English vellum roll dating to about 1295-1305. The original -- now lost -- is thought to be identical to the 17th century manuscript copy, MS. Harl. 6589, ff. 44-5 which consists of 148 shields in 21 rows of 7 + 1, with names above. The following illustrations are based on this copy. > > THE NATIVITY ROLL(Greenstreet 19; Papworth M) is a lost vellume English roll of arms dating to about 1300, and probably measuring about 6.25" by 4'. The original roll consisted of 79 names and blazoned shields written on the dorse of The Falkirk Roll (q.v.). The illustrations represented here are based on the blazons in the 16th century copy transcribed by Anthony R. Wagner, Richmond Herald, housed at the College of Arms, London; formerly Wrest Park MS. 16, ff. 6-8 > > THE PARLIAMENTARY ROLL (aka: The Great Roll or The Bannerets' Roll) is an English roll of arms dating to about 1312, consisting of 19 vellum leaves measuring 6" x 8.25", and including the names and blazons for 1,110 English nobles, knights and deceased lords of the day. The roll is part of the British Museum's manuscript collection: MS. Cotton, Caligula A. XVIII, ff. 3-21b. Many thanks, Jason. The illustrations at http://www.aspilogia.com are very attractive and the first four rolls seem to be based on Gerard Brault's 'The Rolls of Arms Edward I'. However, the Parliamentary Roll, dating from Edward II's reign, was written in Anglo-Norman blazon only, and so the illustrations can only be just one person's interpretation. For example, the original entry for N 360 is "Sire Rauf de Cheyndut, de azure a un cheyne de or e un label de goules." Gerard Brault, whose principal job before he retired was Professor of Early French, translates 'chesne' as oak-tree ('Early Blazon' p 141) [cf. modern French 'chêne']. Yet the illustration has the main charge as an acorn -- close, but not exactly right. But as long as this danger is borne in mind, this could be a useful site for the Parliamentary Roll, an important roll which doesn't appear in the rescued version of Brian Timms's site. Peter Howarth

I wrote a program (free) that will list all lines connecting a descendant and an ancestor in what is basically a trimmed down ancestor's list. It is not a graphical chart however. You would need to configure the Descendant Lists option. http://gigatrees.com

When I'm indexing Common Pleas records, I'll be listening to Dark Star, St Stephen, Ripple. Grateful Dead all the way.

There are a few high resolution rolls on this site too http://www.aspilogia.com THE HERALD'S ROLL (The Fitzwilliam version) is an English roll of arms dating to c. 1270-80, consisting of 17 vellum membranes, now bound as a book of 39 leaves, each measuring 9.1" x 10.75", painted in color in the 15th century, illustrating 697 shields in 117 rows of 6 per row, with 1 shield over. The roll is now part of the Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Museum manuscript collection: MS. 297. SEGAR'S ROLL (Grenstreet 11; Papworth G) is an English roll of arms dating to about 1282. The original -- now lost -- measured 6.125" x 9' 4.75", and consisted of 212 shields in 53 rows of 4, with the names of the coresponding kings, princes, nobles, and knights above each shield. Several 17th century copies were made from the original. The following illustrations are based on the c.1600 color facsimile housed at the College of Arms in London -- Ga. MS. L14, Part I, ff. 26-31. GUILLIM'S ROLL (Grenstreet 18; Papworth J) is an English vellum roll dating to about 1295-1305. The original -- now lost -- is thought to be identical to the 17th century manuscript copy, MS. Harl. 6589, ff. 44-5 which consists of 148 shields in 21 rows of 7 + 1, with names above. The following illustrations are based on this copy. THE NATIVITY ROLL(Greenstreet 19; Papworth M) is a lost vellume English roll of arms dating to about 1300, and probably measuring about 6.25" by 4'. The original roll consisted of 79 names and blazoned shields written on the dorse of The Falkirk Roll (q.v.). The illustrations represented here are based on the blazons in the 16th century copy transcribed by Anthony R. Wagner, Richmond Herald, housed at the College of Arms, London; formerly Wrest Park MS. 16, ff. 6-8 THE PARLIAMENTARY ROLL (aka: The Great Roll or The Bannerets' Roll) is an English roll of arms dating to about 1312, consisting of 19 vellum leaves measuring 6" x 8.25", and including the names and blazons for 1,110 English nobles, knights and deceased lords of the day. The roll is part of the British Museum's manuscript collection: MS. Cotton, Caligula A. XVIII, ff. 3-21b.

On 22/05/17 15:19, Peter Howarth wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m1o6h81udyjji2o/AACTUNEds5HOVqWtUAUoEa-4a?dl=0 > I wasn't familiar with the site but the contents of Dropbox indicates that its URL was www.briantimms.com Archive.org had archived copies of that site. This URL seems to be one of the last good captures: https://web.archive.org/web/20060402212658/http://briantimms.com:80/ although you may have to go back to about https://web.archive.org/web/20050330002245/http://www.briantimms.com:80 to get records from Early Rolls of Arms. Later captures suggest the domain was eventually cyber-squatted. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

You could try a network approach like this http://chris-hampson.com/wp/welcome/family-history/. I've done a more elaborate version using Gephi, open source software that provides more capability. I just haven't got 'round to putting it up on my site.