On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 7:35:41 AM UTC+1, Dee Horn wrote: > I have Hawkwood and de Vere in my family tree. at the moment I am doing corrections on the Hawkwoods on my ancestry family tree > > Dee Horn > > > > > I have just read the 2006 postings on Sir John Hawkwood which are interesting to me because they mention castle Hedingham and the De Veres, I trace my name back to the marriage of John Alliston and Rachel Fyrmyn in Sudbury 1606 and I think John was the son of John Alliston And Mary Payne from Castle Hedingham who married in Castle Hedingham 1577 ( the 1578 births page in ST Nicholas church have been destroyed so I cannot confirm ). When I did a DNA match both the De Vere and Liston names came up which following on from the earlier post does suggest that they Hawkwood, De Vere , Liston and now Alliston all had family connections. My Liston match had a time to common ancestor of between 600 and 900 years and he was from Edinburgh Scotland. The family is mentioned in the book https://archive.org/details/memoirsofmyances00mcca which says they came up down from Essex at the time of William I. Liston is a village near Sudbury and the Liston family held the manor there until the mid 1300's, They held it from De Vere. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Well done Dee, have you come across any connections to Listons as well? Thanks Mark

On 27/05/17 17:51, Jordan Vandenberg wrote: > Thanks everyone for the responses. There are a lot of good suggestions to check out. One question that I have is, when you have ancestors that appear in multiple descents is there a way to have them appear once with multiple branches from them, rather than appearing multiple times. This would require for the lines to intersect. I am not sure if this is something that can only be done if you create the chart manually rather than generating one with software based an already inputted tree. > I suspect manual creation will be needed*. You probably have more constraints than simply showing the lines of descent. At the very least you'll want it to be aesthetically acceptable. In my example that I quoted (4 lines of descent) one particular requirement was to highlight the fact that all these lines were providing brides to 4 successive generations of one male line so I started out by drawing that in at one side and adding the multiple descent beside it. If that hadn't been a constraint an automated layout might have not made that aspect obvious. You might also need to decide what genealogical conventions you need to ignore. Running generations along one axis is probably the last to go but you may well need to choose between avoiding cross-overs and representing the various children of a marriage in chronological sequence. *It might also be a good deal quicker than hunting for a genealogical application that does it for you! -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

I have Hawkwood and de Vere in my family tree. at the moment I am doing corrections on the Hawkwoods on my ancestry family tree Dee Horn On May 18, 2017, at 11:05 PM, [email protected] wrote: I have just read the 2006 postings on Sir John Hawkwood which are interesting to me because they mention castle Hedingham and the De Veres, I trace my name back to the marriage of John Alliston and Rachel Fyrmyn in Sudbury 1606 and I think John was the son of John Alliston And Mary Payne from Castle Hedingham who married in Castle Hedingham 1577 ( the 1578 births page in ST Nicholas church have been destroyed so I cannot confirm ). When I did a DNA match both the De Vere and Liston names came up which following on from the earlier post does suggest that they Hawkwood, De Vere , Liston and now Alliston all had family connections. My Liston match had a time to common ancestor of between 600 and 900 years and he was from Edinburgh Scotland. The family is mentioned in the book https://archive.org/details/memoirsofmyances00mcca which says they came up down from Essex at the time of William I. Liston is a village near Sudbury and the Liston family held the manor there until the ! mid 1300's, They held it from De Vere. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 7:27:52 PM UTC+1, Dee Horn wrote: > i have him on my family tree and at the moment am doing corrections on it.  I have done lots of searching and keep getting different info on how many children and who had them so i am going back thru.  also correcting Tyrells and Chilies.  the book i got from my cousin has lots of errors in it. > > > On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:17:38 PM UTC+1, wjhonson wrote: > > Well then you do understand that all the Y is telling you, is that somewhere in your line, a biological father had a different surname, then you expect him to have. > > > > It doesn't tell you anything about how long ago that occurred. > > Except the surnames have the same origin, Liston and Alliston ( Al Liston) are derived from the manor of Liston in Essex. Other surname variations include Alston, Elliston, Allaston and Austyn.  Names gradually change over the years like Chinese whispers. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Sorry I did not mean to give the impression that De Vere and Hawkwood have the same paternal line. All I was highlighting was the fact that Hawkwood did have family connections to those who had connections to the De Veres as well although at different times. John Hawkwood: An English Mercenary in Fourteenth-Century Italy by William Caferro suggests that John Liston may have been an Uncle of Hawkwood. John Liston was the, if so it would be a maternal Uncle. Sir John Liston had sons John and Thomas who fought at Crecy. Sir John Liston was married twice once to Maud and then to Eleanor. His son by Maud was John. Thomas may have been by Eleanor. That means either Eleanor or Maud could have been the sister of the mother of Hawkwood.

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 1:20:53 AM UTC-5, John Watson wrote: > On Thursday, 25 May 2017 17:54:35 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:59:57 PM UTC-5, John P. Ravilious wrote: > > > Tuesday, 7 August, 2007 > > > > > > > > > Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al., > > > > > > Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley > > > had > > > kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys > > > of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather > > > more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this > > > family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part. > > > > > > The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and > > > well > > > documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation > > > chart. The first 10 generations are given below. > > > > > > The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the > > > identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the > > > Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to > > > the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by > > > Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be > > > seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote: > > > > > > ' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early > > > Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the > > > ancestor from whom this family was actually descended > > > was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning > > > of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the > > > lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de > > > Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale > > > (see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on > > > this matter. > > > The first point, then, which arises is the parentage > > > of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends > > > to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de > > > Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last > > > male representative of the first Lascy house, and who > > > was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the > > > grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from > > > whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is > > > not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual > > > proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr. > > > Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert > > > de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in > > > Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram, > > > through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due > > > to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in > > > benefiting an illegitimate son of his > > > predecessor. ' [2] > > > > > > If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of > > > Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then > > > have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci > > > (alleged) families. > > > > > > Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence > > > which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the > > > Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any > > > relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. > > > Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations > > > of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and > > > Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > John * > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > > > LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of > > > 1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram > > > Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231 > > > in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I > > > I > > > _________________________I > > > I > > > [c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY = > > > of Cromwellbottom I > > > living c. 1246 I > > > I > > > ________________________I________________ > > > I I > > > [c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the > > > living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk > > > I > > > _______________I > > > I > > > [c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of > > > m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland > > > I widow in 1309-10 > > > ________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > I I I > > > [c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET > > > d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16 > > > = (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335 > > > = (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de > > > living 1369 de Tong Thornhill > > > I I > > > ________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____ > > > I I I I I > > > [c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de > > > 30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill > > > Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby > > > in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud > > > I > > > _______I > > > I > > > [c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY = > > > I > > > __________________I _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > I I > > > [c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck > > > d. 1474, married I of Wakefield > > > twice I b. c. 1390 > > > > > > _________________I______________________________________ > > > I I I I I I > > > I > > > [c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. > > > I > > > 1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = > > > I > > > c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John > > > I > > > = Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- > > > I > > > dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth > > > I > > > William Mowbray Bank in Amyas > > > I > > > Scargill Southowram > > > I > > > I________ > > > ____I > > > ____I____________________ I > > > I I I > > > [c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU. > > > 1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian > > > = Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill > > > Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby > > > of Liversedge > > > I > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > NOTES > > > > > > [1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with > > > Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text > > > provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents > > > and Feudal Aids, p. 39. > > > > > > [2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and > > > Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The > > > Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468. > > > > > > [3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474. > > > > > > > > > * John P. Ravilious > > > > Hello John, > > > > I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof? > > > > Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible. > > > > Thanks for any help you might provide me! > > > > Bill H. > > Hi Bill, > > you can read the article here: - > > Charles T, Clay, "The Family of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorpe," Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 28-4 (1927), 468-490. > https://archive.org/stream/publicationsv28p4thor#page/468/mode/1up > > Regards, > > john Watson Thanks so much John, I greatly appreciate it! Bill H.

Interesting. Another Tappan-Homes descendant was the wife of American naturalist / entomologist / horticulturist Theodore Luqueer Mead. Her own father was the well known lepidopterist William Henry Edwards.

Thanks everyone for the responses. There are a lot of good suggestions to check out. One question that I have is, when you have ancestors that appear in multiple descents is there a way to have them appear once with multiple branches from them, rather than appearing multiple times. This would require for the lines to intersect. I am not sure if this is something that can only be done if you create the chart manually rather than generating one with software based an already inputted tree. On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 8:42:32 PM UTC-4, Jordan Vandenberg wrote: > Good day, > > I was wondering if anyone had experience creating large charts that show multiple descents from a person/couple in medieval times, and if so if they know of any decent software, or an app that is good for creating such a chart? > > Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Jordan Vandenberg.

Hi Jordan , another option is "Smart Draw 2010" version, free download, and block it from calling home with free "Zone Alarm" firewall, so it doesn't time out of the free trial period. It allows to you to do amazing charts, one of the features is called "Family Tree", it displays a box for each person , you can choose to add an ancestor, descendant or sibling at any point at any time, go any direction as far as you want, and the lines can be color coded to distinguish each descent, then save it or export it as a JPG to send to others who can view it fully by moving and enlarging(using the "Zoom" function. Robert

I mentioned earlier that among the descendants of John Heart was Austin Tappan Wright, author of ISLANDIA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Tappan_Wright I should also note one of Austin Tappan Wright's daughters, the journalist Sylvia Wright (1917-1981), who in a 1954 article in Harper's: http://www.drapersguild.com/uploads/1/2/8/5/12854632/harpersmagazine-1954-11-0006768.pdf -- coined the word "mondegreen": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen Sylvia Wright was the aunt, and Austin Tappan Wright was the grandfather, of my colleague and friend Tappan Wright King: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tappan_Wright_King -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden [email protected] nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng

On 26/05/2017 2:23 PM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: > The reference to Hamo Valoines as sheriff is from Brayley’s _History > of Surrey_. Hamon Dapifer (the Sheriff) held Titsey in Tanbridge > Hundred in 1086. Valoines appears to have acquired knights fees there > by the 13thc. I was just cross checking since I had not thought both > were called Sheriff. Brayley was wrong - Hamo the sheriff in Domesday book was son of Hamo dentatus of Creully & Torigny. He was not the same as Hamo de Valeines, a Breton, who also occurs in 1086, and the latter's surname was not the same as the Norman Valoines - see Keats-Rohan, *Domesday People* pp. 242-243: 'Domesday Book carefully distinguishes the orthography of Hamo's toponym from that of Peter de Valognes. Despite the subsequent approximation of the orthography of his descendants' name to that of de Valognes, there should be no grounds for confusion between two distinct places.' Peter Stewart

On 26/05/2017 11:01 AM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: > The reference to Hamo Valoines and Titsey comes from Calendar of Patent Rolls. Henry III (1225-1232), Vol. 2, HMSO. P. 281 My question was: What source do you find identifying Haimo the sheriff with a "Hamon Valoines"? The patent roll reference you have given does not address this - it is clearly to Hamo de Valeines in 1229, not to Haimo the sheriff in the 11th century, and not to Valoines for that matter. Peter Stewart

Thank you. Sent from my iPhone > On May 26, 2017, at 1:14 AM, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> On 26/05/2017 2:23 PM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: >> The reference to Hamo Valoines as sheriff is from Brayley’s _History of Surrey_. Hamon Dapifer (the Sheriff) held Titsey in Tanbridge Hundred in 1086. Valoines appears to have acquired knights fees there by the 13thc. I was just cross checking since I had not thought both were called Sheriff. > > Brayley was wrong - Hamo the sheriff in Domesday book was son of Hamo dentatus of Creully & Torigny. He was not the same as Hamo de Valeines, a Breton, who also occurs in 1086, and the latter's surname was not the same as the Norman Valoines - see Keats-Rohan, *Domesday People* pp. 242-243: 'Domesday Book carefully distinguishes the orthography of Hamo's toponym from that of Peter de Valognes. Despite the subsequent approximation of the orthography of his descendants' name to that of de Valognes, there should be no grounds for confusion between two distinct places.' > > Peter Stewart > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 26/05/2017 6:10 AM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: > I have been trying to determine the descent of the Hamons. Several sources say that Hamon the Sheriff held Titsey (John Morris-Domesday Book), while others state that it was Hamon Valoines, also called the Sheriff who held Titsey. Did is devolve to the Valoines? 1229: Hamonem de Valeines de tenement in Tychesey > What source do you find identifying Haimo the sheriff with a "Hamon Valoines"? Haimo the sheriff of Kent, more usually called Haimo dapifer, belonged to a different family, not the Norman Valoines or the Breton Valeines - his father was the rebel Haimo dentatus, seigneur of Creully & Torigny-sur-Vire. Peter Stewart

The reference to Hamo Valoines as sheriff is from Brayley’s History of Surrey. Hamon Dapifer (the Sheriff) held Titsey in Tanbridge Hundred in 1086. Valoines appears to have acquired knights fees there by the 13thc. I was just cross checking since I had not thought both were called Sheriff. Pat > On May 25, 2017, at 9:28 PM, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 26/05/2017 11:01 AM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: >> The reference to Hamo Valoines and Titsey comes from Calendar of Patent Rolls. Henry III (1225-1232), Vol. 2, HMSO. P. 281 > > My question was: What source do you find identifying Haimo the sheriff with a "Hamon Valoines"? > > The patent roll reference you have given does not address this - it is clearly to Hamo de Valeines in 1229, not to Haimo the sheriff in the 11th century, and not to Valoines for that matter. > > Peter Stewart > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Thursday, 25 May 2017 17:54:35 UTC+1, [email protected] wrote: > On Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:59:57 PM UTC-5, John P. Ravilious wrote: > > Tuesday, 7 August, 2007 > > > > > > Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al., > > > > Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley > > had > > kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys > > of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather > > more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this > > family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part. > > > > The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and > > well > > documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation > > chart. The first 10 generations are given below. > > > > The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the > > identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the > > Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to > > the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by > > Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be > > seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote: > > > > ' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early > > Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the > > ancestor from whom this family was actually descended > > was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning > > of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the > > lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de > > Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale > > (see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on > > this matter. > > The first point, then, which arises is the parentage > > of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends > > to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de > > Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last > > male representative of the first Lascy house, and who > > was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the > > grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from > > whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is > > not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual > > proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr. > > Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert > > de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in > > Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram, > > through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due > > to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in > > benefiting an illegitimate son of his > > predecessor. ' [2] > > > > If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of > > Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then > > have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci > > (alleged) families. > > > > Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence > > which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the > > Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any > > relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. > > Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations > > of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and > > Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know. > > > > Cheers, > > > > John * > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > > LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3] > > > > > > > > [Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of > > 1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram > > Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231 > > in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I > > I > > _________________________I > > I > > [c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY = > > of Cromwellbottom I > > living c. 1246 I > > I > > ________________________I________________ > > I I > > [c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the > > living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk > > I > > _______________I > > I > > [c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of > > m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland > > I widow in 1309-10 > > ________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I I I > > [c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET > > d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16 > > = (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335 > > = (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de > > living 1369 de Tong Thornhill > > I I > > ________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____ > > I I I I I > > [c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de > > 30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill > > Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby > > in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud > > I > > _______I > > I > > [c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY = > > I > > __________________I _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I I > > [c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck > > d. 1474, married I of Wakefield > > twice I b. c. 1390 > > > > _________________I______________________________________ > > I I I I I I > > I > > [c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. > > I > > 1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = > > I > > c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John > > I > > = Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- > > I > > dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth > > I > > William Mowbray Bank in Amyas > > I > > Scargill Southowram > > I > > I________ > > ____I > > ____I____________________ I > > I I I > > [c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU. > > 1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian > > = Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill > > Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby > > of Liversedge > > I > > I > > > > > > > > NOTES > > > > [1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with > > Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text > > provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents > > and Feudal Aids, p. 39. > > > > [2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and > > Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The > > Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468. > > > > [3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474. > > > > > > * John P. Ravilious > > Hello John, > > I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof? > > Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible. > > Thanks for any help you might provide me! > > Bill H. Hi Bill, you can read the article here: - Charles T, Clay, "The Family of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorpe," Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 28-4 (1927), 468-490. https://archive.org/stream/publicationsv28p4thor#page/468/mode/1up Regards, john Watson

The reference to Hamo Valoines and Titsey comes from Calendar of Patent Rolls. Henry III (1225-1232), Vol. 2, HMSO. P. 281 Pat > On May 25, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 26/05/2017 6:10 AM, Patricia A. Junkin wrote: >> I have been trying to determine the descent of the Hamons. Several sources say that Hamon the Sheriff held Titsey (John Morris-Domesday Book), while others state that it was Hamon Valoines, also called the Sheriff who held Titsey. Did is devolve to the Valoines? 1229: Hamonem de Valeines de tenement in Tychesey >> > > What source do you find identifying Haimo the sheriff with a "Hamon Valoines"? > > Haimo the sheriff of Kent, more usually called Haimo dapifer, belonged to a different family, not the Norman Valoines or the Breton Valeines - his father was the rebel Haimo dentatus, seigneur of Creully & Torigny-sur-Vire. > > Peter Stewart > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

i have him on my family tree and at the moment am doing corrections on it.  I have done lots of searching and keep getting different info on how many children and who had them so i am going back thru.  also correcting Tyrells and Chilies.  the book i got from my cousin has lots of errors in it. From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 10:05 AM Subject: Re: Family of Sir John Hawkwood On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:17:38 PM UTC+1, wjhonson wrote: > Well then you do understand that all the Y is telling you, is that somewhere in your line, a biological father had a different surname, then you expect him to have. > > It doesn't tell you anything about how long ago that occurred. Except the surnames have the same origin, Liston and Alliston ( Al Liston) are derived from the manor of Liston in Essex. Other surname variations include Alston, Elliston, Allaston and Austyn.  Names gradually change over the years like Chinese whispers. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have been trying to determine the descent of the Hamons. Several sources say that Hamon the Sheriff held Titsey (John Morris-Domesday Book), while others state that it was Hamon Valoines, also called the Sheriff who held Titsey. Did is devolve to the Valoines? 1229: Hamonem de Valeines de tenement in Tychesey Thank you for your thoughts. Pat

On Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:59:57 PM UTC-5, John P. Ravilious wrote: > Tuesday, 7 August, 2007 > > > Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al., > > Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley > had > kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys > of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather > more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this > family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part. > > The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and > well > documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation > chart. The first 10 generations are given below. > > The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the > identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the > Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to > the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by > Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be > seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote: > > ' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early > Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the > ancestor from whom this family was actually descended > was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning > of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the > lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de > Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale > (see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on > this matter. > The first point, then, which arises is the parentage > of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends > to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de > Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last > male representative of the first Lascy house, and who > was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the > grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from > whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is > not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual > proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr. > Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert > de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in > Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram, > through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due > to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in > benefiting an illegitimate son of his > predecessor. ' [2] > > If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of > Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then > have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci > (alleged) families. > > Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence > which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the > Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any > relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. > Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations > of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and > Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know. > > Cheers, > > John * > > > _______________________________________________________ > > LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3] > > > > [Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of > 1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram > Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231 > in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I > I > _________________________I > I > [c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY = > of Cromwellbottom I > living c. 1246 I > I > ________________________I________________ > I I > [c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the > living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk > I > _______________I > I > [c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of > m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland > I widow in 1309-10 > ________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > I I I > [c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET > d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16 > = (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335 > = (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de > living 1369 de Tong Thornhill > I I > ________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____ > I I I I I > [c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de > 30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill > Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby > in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud > I > _______I > I > [c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY = > I > __________________I _ _ _ _ _ _ > I I > [c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck > d. 1474, married I of Wakefield > twice I b. c. 1390 > > _________________I______________________________________ > I I I I I I > I > [c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. > I > 1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = > I > c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John > I > = Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- > I > dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth > I > William Mowbray Bank in Amyas > I > Scargill Southowram > I > I________ > ____I > ____I____________________ I > I I I > [c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU. > 1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian > = Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill > Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby > of Liversedge > I > I > > > > NOTES > > [1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with > Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text > provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents > and Feudal Aids, p. 39. > > [2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and > Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The > Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468. > > [3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474. > > > * John P. Ravilious Hello John, I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof? Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible. Thanks for any help you might provide me! Bill H.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 12:53:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote: > The Craigheads have seemingly always been considered very respectable people in North Carolina and Tennessee. I notice that the father of Vice President John C. Calhoun married a Craighead daughter as his first wife (who was not the mother of John C., however). This book is telling me the Calhouns were "backcountry 'elite'" ... https://books.google.com/books?id=eq5oAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA648-IA2&dq=%22patrick+calhoun%22+craighead&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7p-2bp4vUAhXKSSYKHYPdAn0Q6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=%22patrick%20calhoun%22%20craighead&f=false