Hi Derek I was interested to see this item as I am researching this Alice Neville who is a direct ancestor of my husband. I have seen so many things on the internet, where this Alice is mistaken for Alice Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville and married a Fitzhugh. She cannot possibly be "my" Alice Neville, and I believe the one you talk about below is most probably the one. Do you have any further information about her marrying Thomas Tunstall. If you don't mind me having a copy of the will plus the Flowers and Dougdales Visitation (which I have no knowledge of) and any other information you know of, I would be extremely grateful as I have been looking for some evidence of her for a long time. Many thanks Anita Batty On Saturday, May 21, 2011 at 8:32:31 AM UTC+1, Degs wrote: > Oxford DNB artcle on Robert Neville:- > > This biography was published in the DNB in 1894 > Neville, Robert (1404–1457), bishop of Salisbury and Durham, by H. E. > D. Blakiston > Published 1894 > > > "Neville died 8 or 9 July 1457, and was buried in the south aisle of > the cathedral, > where the marble slab, despoiled of his brass effigy by the Scottish > prisoners > after the battle of Dunbar, may be seen near the second pillar from > the cloister > door (cf. SURTEES, Durham, vol. iv., cathedral plates, No. 3). In his > will, dated 8 July 1457, > but ‘nunquam approbatum,’ and presumably invalid (it is printed in > RAINE, op. cit. App. cclv.), > he had desired burial near the Venerable Bede in the galilee. > Sequestration of his goods was > granted to Sir John Neville, afterwards marquis of Montagu [q.v.] , > his nephew by the half-blood. > He intended to leave a hundred marks to Thomas Neville, ‘scolari in > tenera ætate constituto ad exhibicionem suam,’ > the same to Ralph, and the same to their sister Alice for her > portion; these three can hardly be > the children of the Earl of Salisbury, and, as they do not occur > elsewhere in the Neville pedigree, > may possibly be offspring of his own." > > > > The only and oldest place I can find Alice Neville refered to by name. > > I have a copy of the above Will plus Flowers & Dougdales Visitations > where they mention Alice. > If anyone wants a copy,please let me have your email address & I will > send. > Derek

On Monday, 5 June 2017 14:22:57 UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > > Dear all, > > I now have a copy of the Feet of Fines for Gloucestershire, 1199-1299 (£5+p&p). The July 1227 fine mentioned by Doug does not seem to exist, however, there is another fine concerning the manor of Tetbury dated August 1221, which mentions Walter de Beauchamp and Bertha, daughter of William de Braose. > > There is a pdf scan of the relevant fine here, for those who are interested: - > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77946141/Genealogy%20Notes/CP%2025-1-73-4%20no%2020.pdf > > Here is an edited transcription: > 16 August 1221, Gloucester. Morrow of the Assumption. Walter de Beauchamp (de Bello Campo) petitioner: Reynold de Braose (Breaus) tenant. Half of the manor of Tetbury (Tetebir'), Writ of mort d'ancestor. Reynold acknowledged and granted to Walter £15 of land in the said manor, that is [list of yardlands with tenants]. To hold to Walter in free marriage for the land which William de Braose his [i.e. Walter's] grandfather [avus] gave to Bertha his daughter in marriage, in land and rents in villeinage, with the villeins holding those villeinages with all their families (sequele), and in homage and services of free men, in meadows and common pastures and easements and in all other things belonging to the £15 of land. For this Walter remised and quitclaimed to Reynold the residue of half of the manor. Made in the presence of Robert de Charlton, Walter de Upton, Adam de Charlton, and Ellis le Tailor, who acknowledged that they owed the said services. Endorsed: Glouc' in the fifth year of H[enry III]. Thomasyn. Gloucestr' [Worn] > CP 25/1/73/4, number 20. > C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 23, no. 124. > > At first sight it would appear that Bertha, daughter of William de Braose was the wife of Walter de Beauchamp, since he was holding half of Tetbury in free marriage, and in fact the editor of the volume has shown this in the index. However, the fine also states that Walter de Beauchamp was the grandson of William de Braose, so Walter must have been the son of Bertha de Braose. > > Regards, > > John I should point out that land held by "free marriage" was the maritagium of the woman and held by her and her heirs for three generations. So Walter de Beauchamp as the son and heir of Bertha could be said to be holding the land in free marriage. Regards, John

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 8:17:37 PM UTC+1, taf wrote: > On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 12:13:52 PM UTC-7, taf wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 11:52:09 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > > > Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. > > > > > > Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? > > > > > > Or where I could find any more information on their children? > > > > See the Introduction to Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400 Volume 1  > > > > http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/6513 > > > > Both sources you ask about are on p. 12: > > > > http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6513/ABBREVIATIONS_12.png?sequence=17&isAllowed=y > > > > Just to be clear, the text you ask about are sources, so GX 385 is presumably p. 385 in Harley 1969 (which Barton abbreviated as GX). > > taf What is Harley 1969?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 12:03:29 AM UTC+1, John Higgins wrote: > On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 11:52:09 AM UTC-7, [email protected] wrote: > > Thanks for the help. I couldn't make out the spelling of Abergele. > > > > Do you have any idea what is meant under "15 Huw = Alice f. John Owen of Abergele" when it says in Marchudd 6 (D1) "GX 385. L.D. ii288"? > > > > Or where I could find any more information on their children? > > > > Thanks > > LD is Sir Samuel Rush Meyrick's 1846 edition of Lewys Dwnn's "Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the marches between the years 1586 and 1613". Both volumes of this work are available at the FHL's website here: > https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/247270?availability=Family%20History%20Library > > Although Bartrum cites p. 288 of volume 2 of the Dwnn work, the pedigree you're looking for is actually on page 289, where the children of Huw [Williams] and Alice ferch John Owen are shown. Also shown is one grandchild, who happens to be the Capt. Huw Williams of Wig that you've asked about in a different inquiry. I'm so sorry, I can't believe that I missed your most helpful reply. I really appreciate it, thank you John! This might be an obvious answer for you, but I was wondering how you know that the grandchild is the same Capt. Huw Williams of Wig? Thanks again

Nice to be back! I am having trouble with the marriage of John Colepepper to Juliana 'Cromwell' c 1418. She was to marry twice more : John Brauncespath and John Fenne, but only had issue with John Harrington, Katherine, 1418-1476, who married John Harrington. Here is what I have : OHN CULPEPER, Knt., Sheriff of Rutland, 1430, son and heir. He married before 10 June 1425 (date of fine) JULIANA CROMWELL. They had one daughter, Katherine. In 1425 he and his wife, Juliana, conveyed the manors of Great Newton and Little Newton, Northamptonshire to William Tresham, William Aldewyncle, and others. In 1429 Robert Dabrichescourt and his wife, conveyed to John and his wife, Juliana, John Daneys, Knt., and two others one messuage and lands in Cottesmore and Greetham, Rutland, which formerly were of Bernard de Brus. His widow, Juliana, married (2nd) before 12 Nov. 1437 (date of fine) JOHN BRAUNSPATH, Knt., of Exton, Rutland, Sheriff of Rutland, 1435–6, Escheator of Northamptonshire and Rutland, 1436–7, Knight of the Shire for Rutland, 1437, 1442, brother of Nicholas Braunspath, Esq. In 1440 John Braunspath, Esq., sued John Crak, of Glooston, Leicestershire in the Common of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1444 he and his wife, Juliana, conveyed the manor of Woodcroft, Northamptonshire to Edmund Grey, Knt., of Ruthin, and others. SIR JOHN BRAUNSPATH died before 12 Dec. 1448 (date of charter). In 1450 Master William Breton, and three others, executors of John Braunspath, Knt., sued John Duffyn, Gent., of Islip, Northamptonshire regarding a debt of 40s. His widow, Juliana, married (3rd) before 12 Dec. 1448 (date of charter) ROBERT FENNE, Esq., of Exton, Rutland and Barton Seagrave, Northamptonshire, of the Chancery, 1446–60, Ranger of Salcer, 1446–79, Knight of the Shire for Rutland, 1449–50, Sheriff of Rutland, 1449–50, 1453–4, 1458–9. In 1448 he and his wife, Juliana, and others conveyed the manor of Woodcroft, Northamptonshire to Thomas Dyve and John Clippesham; the same year the said Dyve and Clippesham conveyed the same property back to Robert and his wife, Juliana. In 1452 he and his wife, Juliana, conveyed the manor of Wodecroft, Northamptonshire to Humphrey, Duke of Buckingham, Humphrey, Earl of Stafford, and others. In 1457 John Boxted, son and heir of Nicholas Boxsted owed a debt of £400 to Thomas Palmer, John Dyve, and Robert Fenne and his wife, Juliana. In 1459 Henry Grene, Esq., William Aldewynele, Esq., and others conveyed the manor of Wodecroft, Northamptonshire to John Melton, Edmund Hampden, and others which Robert Brudenell and John Buxstede recovered in the king’s court in 1458 against Robert and his wife, Juliana, then tenants. About 1459 he and his wife, Juliana, complained that Oliver Sutton, Philip Sutton, and others unjustly disseised them of their free tenement in Woodcroft, Etton, Helpston, etc., Northamptonshire. In 1460 Robert Fenne, Esq., sued Simon Mason, Gent., of Alderton, Northamptonshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of six marks. In 1462 Richard Wydvyle [Wydville], Knt., Lord Rivers, John Melton, Knt., and other feoffees conveyed the manor of Woodcroft, Northamptonshire to Robert and his wife, Juliana. His wife, Juliana, was living 16 Feb. 1463. In 1465 he sued William Adyngton, of Potterspury, Northamptonshire, yeoman, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of seven marks. In 1470 Henry Assheborn sued Robert Fenne, Esq., of Barton Seagrave, Northamptonshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £60. ROBERT FENNE, Esq., died in 1480. References: Banks Supp. to Bank’s Dormant & Extinct Baronage (1826): 198–200 (sub Hardredeshull). List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 112–113. Benolte et al. Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633–4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 2–3 (Culpeper ped.: “Sir John Culpeper. = .... d. of Cromwell.”). Wrottesley Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 439. Tristram Moated Houses (1911): 252–253. Comber Sussex Gens. 2 (1932): 120. Wedgwood Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 103–104 (biog. of John Braunspath), 317 (biog. of Robert Fenne). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/717, image 446f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/aCP40no717fronts/IMG_0446.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, image 967d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/bCP40no758dorses/IMG_0967.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/796, image 105f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no796/aCP40no796fronts/IMG_0105.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/814, image 1180d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no814/bCP40no814dorses/IMG_1180.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/837, image 389d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no837/bCP40no837dorses/IMG_0389.htm). National Archives, C 241/243/6 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/837, image595d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no837/bCP40no837dorses/IMG_0595.htm). National Archives, C 241/243/6 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/179/93, #28 (see abstract of fine at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html). Northamptonshire Record Office, F(M) Charter/660, F(M) Charter/664, F(M) Charter/665, F(M) Charter/668, F(M) Charter/672, F(M) Charter/676, F(M) Charter/677, F(M) Charter/679, F(M) Charter/2240 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Can anyone help with the identity of Juliana, which seems to be contested? Peter

On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 07:20:12 UTC+1, John Watson wrote: > On Wednesday, 31 May 2017 04:49:24 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: > > On 31/05/2017 1:18 PM, taf wrote: > > > On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:31:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > > > >> Maybe the name William is a slip of the editor, silently supplying, > > >> rather than the 14th-century annalist - the manuscript (BL Cotton. > > >> Caligula A x) is not online as far as I can tell, but perhaps only the > > >> initial W. is given there under 1225. > > > I have seen the same slip in reverse, where an ipm gives Walter when the person in question was clearly William, and I always suspected a similar cause, the use of a W. somewhere in the transmission process. > > > > This can't very well be the case with the Sele priory record "excepting > > the services of Walter de Beauchamp and Hugh de Mortimer, and their > > heirs by the daughters of William de Brewse", since it was dated July > > 1227 and William the (generally supposed) husband of Berta de Braiose > > had died in 1197. > > > > Where did this information come from? How certain is it that the > > original text doesn't mean "and their heirs descended from the daughters > > of William de Brewse", i.e. allowing for Walter de Beauchamp himself to > > be the son rather than husband of Berta? > > > > Peter Stewart > > Hi all, > > It occurs to me that this particular fine relating to property in Gloucestershire should be in print somewhere. > > Does anyone have access to: > L. F. Salzman, ed., The Chartulary of the Priory of St. Peter at Sele (1923) > or, > C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003) > > Regards, > > John Dear all, I now have a copy of the Feet of Fines for Gloucestershire, 1199-1299 (£5+p&p). The July 1227 fine mentioned by Doug does not seem to exist, however, there is another fine concerning the manor of Tetbury dated August 1221, which mentions Walter de Beauchamp and Bertha, daughter of William de Braose. There is a pdf scan of the relevant fine here, for those who are interested: - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77946141/Genealogy%20Notes/CP%2025-1-73-4%20no%2020.pdf Here is an edited transcription: 16 August 1221, Gloucester. Morrow of the Assumption. Walter de Beauchamp (de Bello Campo) petitioner: Reynold de Braose (Breaus) tenant. Half of the manor of Tetbury (Tetebir'), Writ of mort d'ancestor. Reynold acknowledged and granted to Walter £15 of land in the said manor, that is [list of yardlands with tenants]. To hold to Walter in free marriage for the land which William de Braose his [i.e. Walter's] grandfather [avus] gave to Bertha his daughter in marriage, in land and rents in villeinage, with the villeins holding those villeinages with all their families (sequele), and in homage and services of free men, in meadows and common pastures and easements and in all other things belonging to the £15 of land. For this Walter remised and quitclaimed to Reynold the residue of half of the manor. Made in the presence of Robert de Charlton, Walter de Upton, Adam de Charlton, and Ellis le Tailor, who acknowledged that they owed the said services. Endorsed: Glouc' in the fifth year of H[enry III]. Thomasyn. Gloucestr' [Worn] CP 25/1/73/4, number 20. C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire 1199-1299, Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 23, no. 124. At first sight it would appear that Bertha, daughter of William de Braose was the wife of Walter de Beauchamp, since he was holding half of Tetbury in free marriage, and in fact the editor of the volume has shown this in the index. However, the fine also states that Walter de Beauchamp was the grandson of William de Braose, so Walter must have been the son of Bertha de Braose. Regards, John

Hi Ken, I came across the catalogue entries for a few records that may be helpful to you in your research on Rolleston of Tanshelf, Toynton & Watnall. You may have already taken a look at these, but they are housed in the Nottingham archives, so you may not have seen them. http://nawcat.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=AP266-0029&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=NaviTree.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqItem=DD%201355/A&dsqField=RefNo#HERE Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/64 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Grant Date 24 Mar 1544 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription (1) John Ballett of Nethertynton [Low Toynton, Lincolnshire], chaplain (2) John Goderic of Ely Cambridgeshire], esq (3) William Goderic son of (2) Grant from (1) to (2) of the manor in Nethertynton with all lands, tenements, meadow, pasture etc. with appurtenances in vill and fields of Nether and Upper Tynton, Wayth cum Gransbye [Waith cum Grainsby, Lincolnshire] and Teithforth [Tetford, Lincolnshire]. (2) to hold of chief lords of fee by due and customary service and after death of (2), (3) to hold premises. Memorandum of endorsed delivery of seisin. Dated 24 Mar 35 Henry VIII 1544. Parchment; signature and seal of (1). AccessStatus Open Language Latin Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/99 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Indenture, arbitration Date 27 Jul 1618 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription (1) Lancellett Roulston [Rolleston] of Watnowe [Watnall], esq, [plaintiff] (2) Sir John Byron, junior, of Bulwell, knight; Timothy Pusey, esq; and Silvester Smyth, gentleman [deforciants] (3) Gervase Teverey; and William Mosley, esqs Reciting that at Assizes held at Nottingham in Lent 1618 trial was held between (1) and (2) regarding the trespass by (2) surrounding certain piece of ground of (1) by maintaining a dam or pond of water serving iron works of above Sir John Byron then occupied by Pusey and Smyth; cause depending notwithstanding above trial and all other controversies between (1) and (2) by mutual consent referred to (3) for arbitration, now (3) after view of quantity and quality of above parcel of ground, damage and loss sustained by (1) and benefit and advantage gained by (2), find it reasonable that Sir John Byron as in (2) pay (1) unpaid rent amounting to 40s. until beginning of suit and £6 for costs sustained in suit and on payment (1) to demise above parcel of meadow ground to Byron from Annunciation B.V.M. [Blessed Virgin Mary] [25 Mar] 1618 for term of 7 years if (1) live, (2) paying 26s 8d per annum rent at house of (1) in Watnowe. Proviso that if rent unpaid 20 days demise void. Signatures of all except Pusey and Smyth; seals missing. Dated 27 Jul 16 James I 1618. AccessStatus Open Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/100 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Answers to interrogatories in examination of Robert, Earl of Kingston at Worksop Date 10 Nov 1635 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription In Chancery case between William Copely, esq, plaintiff and Earl of Kingston deforciant concerning lease of ironworks. Commission addressed to Sir Ralph Hansby, knight, Robert Rockley and William Moseley esqs. Signatures and seals of Hansby, Rockley and Moseley; signature of Kingston. AccessStatus Open Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/101 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Copy plea of trespass [enrolled 21 Charles II] Date 8 Jun 1667 Date 8 Oct 1669 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription (1) William Roulston [Rolleston] of Acton [Middlesex], esq, respondent (2) William Dodd by attorney Charles Rampayne, plaintiff (1) to answer (2) on plea of trespass [debt] re £21 6s 10d for various merchandise sold to (1). Endorsed memorandum: Receipt by (2) for £10 9s in full for all demands of (1). AccessStatus Open Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/102 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Bond Date 29 Mar 1684 Date 15 Apr 1684 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription (1) Lancellot Rolleston of Carburton, esq (2) Edward Bigland, esq, serjeant at law (3) Christopher Hall, mayor of Nottingham; Ralph Edge, Clerk of Recognizances of Debt, Nottingham Bond for £600. (1) to (2) on 10 Apr 1684 on production of bond. If default made in payment (1) to incur penaulty and distraint under statutes merchant. Parchment; signatures and seals of (1) and (3) - latter Statute Merchant Seal of Borough of Nottingham. Endorsed enrolment dated 15 Apr 1684. AccessStatus Open Language Latin Level Item Repository GB 0157 Nottinghamshire Archives ReferenceNo DD/1355/103 FullCatalogue View collection catalogue AccessionNo 3605 Title Copy petition to George Lord Jeffreyes [Judge], chancellor of England Date 15 Apr 1684 Extent 1 doc ContentDescription (1) Sir Robert Sawre, knight, attorney general to James II (2) Late William Rolleston of Acton [Middlesex] and Kettleborough [Kettleburgh, Staffordshire], gentleman (3) Lancellot Rolleston of Watnall, gentleman; and Alured Rolleston of Middlesex, gentleman, both executors of (2) (4) Edward Rolleston of Toynton [Lincolnshire] esq. executor of Lancellot Rolleston as in (2) (1) petitions chancellor Jeffreyes on behalf of inhabitants of town of Rolleston [Staffordshire] laying information that (2) seized in fee of reversion expectant on death of H.M. Katherine Queen Dowager of fee farm rents at manor of Rolleston c £30 per annum purchased by (2) of Charles II. (2) possessed in lifetime of great personal estate of value of £1500, having no issue and with pious intention to settle above fee farm rent up to yearly value of £100 for building hospital, increase of schoolmaster's salary, maintenance of poor people in Rolleston [Staffordshire] and other charitable uses for town of Rolleston where (2) or some of ancestors born and dwelt and where family seat for many year (though lately alienated), on 23 July 1672 by will [long preamble] (2) instructed executors to convey his body to Rolleston church in Staffordshire and bury it in St Mary's Isle [aisle] within grave of ancestors near where father's bones lye and to set up inscription. £100 left to poor of Rolleston from fee farm rents of town, bell given and charge of making steeple fit to be at testator's charge, house to be built of brick with Rolleston arms over door and on door and inscription concerning donor and to be as near schoolhouse 'as you can buy a piece of ground to sett it one'. School master to have £10 out of above £100 per annum to read prayers twice a day and scholars to have 10s a quarter to buy cakes on St Stephen's Day [10s], Easter Monday [10s], Midsummer Day [10s] and Michaelmas Day [10s], 6 poor men and women to have £6 a year 'but every 2 yeares to take out soe much as will buy them gownes', remainder of above £100 per annum given to be made use of for poor that are newly married to have it without use [interest] for 4 years provided they give good security and return it at end of 4 years and then to another couple for same use only. £5 per annum to member of Rolleston family overseeing hospital with one of Agotts living near Rolleston 'to give a dinner to them and the best of that Towne of Rolleston on May Day at the Cross if it bee faire weather'. All lands at Acton [Middlesex] and all stock there and at Kettleborough [Staffordshire] to be sold to advantage and laid out in Staffordshire for uses above, £50 per annum to be taken out of farm at Kettleborough to go to Henry Penninge and heirs. (3) appointed executors of will and fee farm rents of Rolleston given to poor and to be made up to £100 per annum out of lands of Acton. £500 given to Alured Rolleston as in (3) and remainder to Lancellot Rolleston as in (3) in case he buy Rolleston and 'if hee doth not to that Rolleston that shall buy it. If not it is to bee putt into a bank to trade towards any Rolleston that shall doe it'. Lancellott Rolleston, the Agotts and the Everets are to supervise transaction and to trade to best advantage till considerable sum tempts a Rolleston to purchase in case Lancellot Rolleston refuse. To Mary Rolleston and Elizabeth Rolleston, daughters of Symon Rolleston of Lambeth, or to any child that his wife claims to be his, 12d each. To servant James Rhenolds £5 per annum or option to be one of the Alms men at Rolleston. Testator prays God to bless executors and to send them grace not to wrong the poor nor testator that curse may not fall on them that injure poor and not fulfill will of dead. True friend Mr Robert Butler and cozen John Rolleston and Mr Humphrey Butler of Grays Inn appointed overseers of will and given £10 each for rings. (2) died shortly after making will and will proved in Feb 1672 in Prerogative Court of Canterbury and possession taken by (3) of all money, goods, chattels, corn, stock etc and personal estate of (2) sold and great sums of money raised; Lancellot Rolleston entered premises in Acton charged with raising £100 per annum for above charitable uses and which ought to have been sold for that purpose, disposed of premises and received rents and profits from death of (2) during remainder of own life (c 13 or 14 years), pulled down buildings and sold materials to value of £200 and woods to value of £100 - all of which rents and profits etc at Kettleborough and Acton should have been applied to erecting almshouse providing bell, fitting and preparing steeple of church of Rolleston [Staffordshire] for placing bell, paying £10 per annum to schoolmaster of Rolleston and yearly sums to poor and other charitable uses. Lancellot Rolleston possessed in demesne of real and personal estate in Watnall, Gresley, Torkard, Mansfield etc and Riddings Greenhill Lane in parish of Alfreton [Derbyshire] etc and personal estate amounting to £1000 per annum by will c 9 Aug 1685 made provision that all debts, legacies etc including premises in Acton [Middlesex] died without issue and (4) proved will, entered premises devised to him in Acton took rents and profits and possession of personal estate of Lancelot Rolleston and together with Alured Rolleston as in (3) surviving executor of (2) ought to account for all rents and profits etc raised from above premises in Acton which Lancellot Rolleston had taken and received since death of (2), make up fee farm rents sum of £100 being debt justly owing by Lancellot Rolleston and ought to be paid by (4) to charitable uses above and (4) ought to account for rents and profits of premises in Acton taken by him since death of Lancellot Rolleston and pay same to charitable uses, selling Acton premises and with money raised and goods and stock at Acton and Kettleborough purchase premises in Staffordshire which together with fee farm rents should amount to clear annual value of £100. Lancellot Rolleston received rents and profits in Acton and never paid same to uses for which intended by (1), and (4) executor of Lancellot Rolleston and Alured Rolleston [surviving executor of (1)] or one of them having unjust design to defeat above charitable uses and to defraud and deprive poor and others of town of Rolleston, concealed personal estate, avoided account for rents and profits and money raised in Acton received since death of (2) and kept growing rents to own use, neglected and refused to build hospital and to pay and settle £100 per annum and execute provisions in will of (2) and to perform trusts reposed in (3). Further in prosecution of design (3) combined with Joseph Moore of Southwark [Surrey], upholsterer, and wife Mary and Philip Jacob of Lambeth [Surrey], gentleman, and wife Elizabeth [Elizabeth and Mary are or pretend to be cousins and heirs of (2) or daughters and heirs of Symon Rolleston, eldest brother of (2) and others unknown to (1) who when discovered should be made parties 'and charged with confederates holding deeds, evidences etc. re above premises with intention to obstruct performance of will of (2), deny that (2) made such will, claimed title to Acton premises by ficitious settlement or conveyance or that will is unintelligible and imperfect to sustain matter'. Incomplete. AccessStatus Open I hope some of these are of help to your research. Cheers, Jordan. On Saturday, April 30, 2016 at 10:49:03 AM UTC-4, Ken Rolston wrote: > Back in March 2014 we were discussing in this forum the rather intricate complexities of the Rowlstons of Tanshelf branch in Yorkshire and their marriages with Copleys and Bosviles and Cressy, etc. Following Terry Booth's excellent proposal of 3 x Edward Rowlstons in succession for the family at Cridling Stubbs in Womersley parish, I posted a lot of detail in "Rolston of Tanshelf in Pontefract, Part 1" and more about the connections to Goodrickes at their moiety of Nether Toynton in Lincolnshire, in "Rolston of Tanshelf in Pontefract, Part 2". We discussed our interpretations of the Rowlston marriage to Anne Goodricke, by which Nether Toynton first came to the Rowlstons. > > Since then I have been concentrating on refining the details and have hopefully resolved many of the questions that concerned us at that time. I agree now with Terry that Edward Rowlston who married Anne Goodricke was not of the Watnall branch, but was son of Edward (I) Rowlston and Mabel Anne at Cridling Stubbs. > There was also discussion about Edward Rowlston of Nether Toynton who received all of the Watnall estates by bequest from Lancelot Rolleston of Watnall in 1685, through whom the Toynton and Watnall branches combined. The identity of that Edward of Toynton was questionable, Burke, following errors in Visitations, defined him as son of Philip Rolleston of Watnall and Frances Pierrepont. I have now proved that to be wrong. I have identified a number of errors in the family's previous pedigrees and have pinned down the identity of Edward of Toynton. I have tentatively integrated Vance Meade's data from the Close Rolls about John & Isabell Roulston at Pontefract who might provide the connection between Swarkeston manor and Tanshelf around 1483. > As I feared at the time, this has radically changed the generally accepted lineage of the Rollestons at Watnall, of whom the post-1687 family have a different ancestry to those at Watnall pre-1685. > I have to confess that much of the interpretation about individuals and family lineages in the Part 2 post of March 2014 is superseded and I strongly recommend that conclusions derived from that post should be scrapped. > > I have written all of this into a research paper that I would like to present to any on this forum who may be interested to follow through with the story. The paper runs to 59 pages including 6 pedigree charts and cannot be posted here. I have placed it into DropBox and provide the link here for anyone to access it to view or download. The paper is titled: "The Rollestons of Toynton and Watnall, a Re-Evaluation - 2nd Draft". It remains in draft form until I have found supporting data for the Swarkeston-Tanshelf connection and for the proof of identity of Thomas Rowlston who received the conveyance of Nether Toynton from Anne Goodricke in 1606 and thus became ancestral to Rollestons of Toynton and Watnall. The charts define the revised lineage from around 1370 when Rollestons branched off to Swarkeston and from there to Tanshelf, then onward to Nether Toynton and finally Watnall. As this is still a draft, there are likely to be further changes in future as I gather more detail, and some of the charts will be revised, but I believe I am now much closer to a correct definition of these family lines. > > In 7 chapters, the paper discusses: > History of Nether Toynton and how it came to the Rollestons. > Rolleston of Watnall Chaworth, the direct family line. > Rolleston of Swarkeston manor in Derbs. > Rowlston of Tanshelf in Pontefract, Yorks. > The transfer of Nether Toynton manor to Thomas Rowlston. > Rowlston of Toynton, inheritors of Watnall and progenitors of the post-1687 Watnall branch. > Conclusions regarding the re-evaluated Watnall branch. > There is also an Appendix providing a summary description of each of the 11 x Thomas, 10 x Edward and 6 x Lancelot that come into the story. > > Please note that this paper is only about the Rolstons of Tanshelf descended from Lyonell (II), mercer of Pontefract, and is not concerned with the other Rolstons descended from his father Lyonell (I) who were involved with Copleys, Cressys, etc. That substantial other half of the Tanshelf branch will be discussed in a future research paper. > > Here is the link to the pdf file in DropBox: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/hgs41be16c5wc37/Toynton%20%26%20Watnall%20re-evaluation.pdf?dl=0 > > Happy reading..... > Ken Rolston.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:03:32 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote: > Thanks, Nathan ... great work! > > Percival Boyd's research explains where the initial source got the reference to Beatrix "Pitt" as a first wife for St. Leger Codd, though I wonder where he got the precise "18 May 1667" marriage date, when it was actually in the month of October seven years previous. > > It's good to have such detailed info on the first wife of St Leger Codd. You've discovered an addition to Royal Ancestry and Adventurers of Purse and Person. Best, Nathan

On 4/06/2017 9:18 AM, taf wrote: > On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:55:20 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > >> Well, if it serves for something, one of my great-aunts (a sister to my >> paternal grandmother) who was illiterate half of her life (she started >> school at 45 and died at 92), could recite her paternal ancestry up to the >> 6th generation, spouses included, and on her maternal side, she could do >> the same up to the 7th generation. > Sounds like a special person. On the other hand, I have seen visitation pedigrees that are completely false beyond the grandfather. Special in the degree of her interest and willingness to share it, but not unique and perhaps not all that exceptional as to her accuracy. I don't doubt there would be young people in Spain today who could recount as many details (mutatis mutandis) about their Facebook friends. One major difference between the great-aunt and many visitation informants is in the coherence of her family background - she was not a person on the make with ancestors who were equally on the make. There were surely fewer multiple marriages and half-blood kinships in a social milieu with less mercenary priorities for marriage and reproduction. Peter Stewart

Thank you Peter. I enjoyed reading the Life. Nancy

Thanks, Nathan ... great work! Percival Boyd's research explains where the initial source got the reference to Beatrix "Pitt" as a first wife for St. Leger Codd, though I wonder where he got the precise "18 May 1667" marriage date, when it was actually in the month of October seven years previous. It's good to have such detailed info on the first wife of St Leger Codd.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:55:20 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > Well, if it serves for something, one of my great-aunts (a sister to my > paternal grandmother) who was illiterate half of her life (she started > school at 45 and died at 92), could recite her paternal ancestry up to the > 6th generation, spouses included, and on her maternal side, she could do > the same up to the 7th generation. Sounds like a special person. On the other hand, I have seen visitation pedigrees that are completely false beyond the grandfather. taf

On 3/06/2017 8:43 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >> Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart >> escreveu: >>> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy >>>> was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the >>>> chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who >>>> probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and >>>> part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain >>>> ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was >>>> probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the >>>> Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi >>>> of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source >>>> about the House of Este. This particular connection is very >>>> interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este >>>> male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself >>>> male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the >>>> House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female >>>> generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the >>>> theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this >>>> newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>>> comments are welcome. >>> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >>> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >>> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >>> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not >>> enough >>> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >>> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >>> >>> Peter Stewart >> What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their >> respective thesis. > > There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book > in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such > luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It > is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily > reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, > that is simply inadmissable. > > Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido > of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. I should also have pointed out that this Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was mistaken for the the father of Oberto I by Muratori - but he was misidentifying the persons named in charters of a marquis Adalberto whose father was Oberto the son of another Adalberto. These charters were dated 13 March 1002 and 9 July 1011, and the Oberto in the middle of the genealogical Adalberto sandwich was Oberto II, not Oberto I. We have no evidence (beyond a guess from onomastics) to indicate that the latter's father may have been named Adalberto; and as to what his rank and title may have been, that is also left to guesswork - some conjecture that he may have been the Adalberto who occurs as count of Parma in May 921, but this is far from certain. Peter Stewart

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:28:56 PM UTC-6, Nathan Murphy wrote: > iii. Beatrix Codd, b. by 1668 (age above 21 in 1689), d. living 2 Jul 1717, St James Clerkenwell, Middlesex,[12] m. London St Dionis Backchurch, 18 Jun 1689 (Vicar General licence dated 11 Jun 1689), Richard Thornton.[7][8] Richard Thornton, Citizen and Apothecary of London, of London All Hallows Lombard Street, b. c1666 (age about 23 in 1689). London, England, Land Tax Records, 1692-1932, Ancestry 1692 Dec 25, Bishopsgate Within Ward, The First Division, Bell yard Richard Thornton & Will[ia]m Marriott, lands: 2.8.0, 100 each, stock: 0.6.0 each 1693 Mar 25, Bishopsgate Within Ward, The First Division, Bell-yard Richard Thornton & Will[ia]m Marriott p[ar]tners, lands: 2.8.0, 100, stock: 0.6.0 [Marriott:] 100, stock: 0.6.0 1693 Jun 24, Bishopsgate Ward Within, The First Division, Bell-yard Richard Thornton & William Marriott, lands: 2.8.0, stock: 0.6.0 each 1693 Sep 29, Bishopsgate Ward Within, The First Division, Bell yard Richard Thornton & William Marriott, lands: 2.8.0, stock: 0.6.0 each 1703 Mar 25, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Allhallowes Precinct Richard Thornton, rents: 10.0.0 (p. 5) 1703, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Second Division of the parish of St Botolph Bishopsgate, North Side of Rose And Crowne Court John Philips, Catherine Roberts, and Rich[ard] Thornton, rents: 0.16.0 (p. 14) 1705, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Bell yard Richard Thornton, personal estate: 0.18.0, rent: 0.10.0 (p. 5) 1706, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Bell yard Richard Thornton, personal estate: 0.18.0, rent: 0.10.0 & Mrs Hopkins Lodg[e]r, personal estate 0.12.0 (f. 6) 1707, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Bell yard Richard Thornton, personal estate: 0.18.0, rent: 0.10.0 (p. 6) 1708, Bishopsgate Within Ward, Bell Yard Richard Thornton, personal estate: 0, rents: 0.10.0 (p. 5) 1709, Bishopsgate Within Ward, North Side of Angell Ally Richard Thornton, lands: 1.4.0 (p. 7) 1710, Bishopsgate Within Ward, North Side of Angell Allye Richard Thornton, lands: 1.4.0 (p. 7) 1711, Bishopsgate Within Ward, North Side of the Ally Richard Thornton, lands: 1.4.0 (p. 7) Nathan

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 3:39:38 PM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote: > This marriage license tells more: St. Leger Codd, bp. Lenham, Kent, 23 Nov 1638,[1] m. (1) St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Surrey, 23 Oct 1660, Beatrix Pett.[2] Dorman states St. Leger Codd had m. Ann (Mottrom) Wright Fox by 11 May 1670. He provides an excellent account of Codd’s Virginia and Maryland wives.[3] Children of St. Leger Codd by Beatrix Pett (order unknown; baptisms haven’t been found): i. James Codd, Gentleman, of Wateringbury, Kent and St Mary Whitechapel, Middlesex. Legatee in the will of [his uncle] William Pett, 1692.[4] Legatee in father’s will, 1706.[14] The parish register of St Mary Whitechapel records that on 23 Nov 1715, 'James Codd, a man bur[ied] at Lumbard Street.'[5] James Codd of the Parish of St Mary Matfellon al[ia]s White Chappel in the County of Middx Gentleman, left a will dated 29 Oct 1715, proved 5 May 1716. He mentions lands in Wateringbury, Kent, and left everything to his niece Jane Thornton of London St Botolph Bishopsgate, spinster, whom he appointed sole executrix.[6] He mentions no children in his will. ii. Elizabeth Codd, legatee in will of [her uncle] Peter Pett, 1680.[11] Perhaps d. by 1692, not a legatee in will of [her uncle] William Pett, 1692.[4] She is not a legatee in her father’s will, 1706.[14] No further information. iii. Beatrix Codd, b. by 1668 (age above 21 in 1689), d. living 2 Jul 1717, St James Clerkenwell, Middlesex,[12] m. London St Dionis Backchurch, 18 Jun 1689 (Vicar General licence dated 11 Jun 1689), Richard Thornton.[7][8] Richard Thornton, Citizen and Apothecary of London, of London All Hallows Lombard Street, b. c1666 (age about 23 in 1689). Legatee in will of [her uncle] William Pett, 1692.[4] Richard Thornton, wife Beatrix, and daughters Jane and Mary taxed in 1695.[13] Legatee in father’s will, 1706.[14] The will of "Richard Thornton of parish of Allhallows Lombard Street London Apothecary" is dated 1 Feb 1704[/5], and was proved 18 Nov 1708. He appoints his wife Beatrix Thornton executrix and mentions sons and daughters who are under age 21 (but not by name).[9] Issue, all bp. London All Hallows Lombard Street:[10] (1) Jane bp. 16 Jul 1691, universal legatee in will of James Codd, 1715,[6] (2) Mary bp. 22 Aug 1693, (3) Ann bp. 7 Oct 1694, (4) Richard bp. 11 Oct 1695, (5) Thomas bp. 9 Dec 1696, (6) Mary bp. 10 Apr 1698, and (7) Elizabeth bp. 6 Aug 1699. Credit: John Brandon. Notes: 1) The marriage to Beatrix Pett occurred in 1660, rather than 1667. 2) References to Beatrix Codd in 1692 will of William Pett refer to her as deceased, but do not call her a widow in the portion that is legible on Ancestry (much of the will is unreadable). 3) In APP, James Codd is assigned to St. Leger Codd’s second wife Anne, but because he is called a kinsman in his uncle William Pett’s will, he is probably a son by Codd’s first wife Beatrix. James continued association with his sister Beatrix (Codd) Thornton’s daughter Jane Thornton. 4. Apothecary Company apprenticeship bindings and freedom admissions do not begin until 1694 at FHL. Court minutes go back to 1661. 5. Percival Boyd created three family group records for William Codd that mention his son St Leger Codd (see below). He also created a record of the family of Richard Thornton, all available on findmypast.co.uk. 6. For the Pett family, see H. Farnham Burke and Oswald Barron, ‘The Builders of the Navy: A Genealogy of the Family of Pett,” The Ancestor 10 (1904):147-178. Beatrix is mentioned at p. 163. 7. There are no Codd(e) taxpayers in these www.british-history.ac.uk collections: (1) London Hearth Tax: City of London, 1662; (2) London Hearth Tax: Westminster 1664; (3) London Hearth Tax: City of London and Westminster, 1666. Sources: [1] Lenham, Kent, bishop’s transcripts, FHL Microfilm 1736839, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNVZ-CRH). [2] St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Surrey, parish registers, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31280_199007-00283). [3] John Frederick Dorman, Adventurers of Purse and Person Virginia 1607-1624/5, 3 vols. (4th ed., Baltimore, 2007), 3:107-109; citing Lancaster County, Virginia Order Book 1666-1680:147 and Charles Arthur Hoppin, ‘Some Descendants of Richard Wright, Gentleman, of London, England, and Northumberland, Virginia, 1655,’ Tyler’s Quarterly Historical and Genealogical Magazine 1 (1919-1920), 127-130 (https://archive.org/stream/tylersquarterly00tylegoog#page/n144/mode/2up). [4] Will of William Pett, Prerogative Court of Canterbury [PCC] 230 Fane (1692) folios 279-281, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310610-00753/978030). [5] St Mary Whitechapel, Middlesex, parish registers, Ancestry. [6] Will of James Codd, PCC 94 Fox (1716) folios 52-53, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310755-00422/1000863). [7] London St Dionis Backchurch, parish registers, Ancestry. [8] George J. Armytage, Allegations for Marriage Licences Issued by the Vicar-General of the Archbishop of Canterbury July 1687 to June 1694, Harleian Soc. Pubs. 31 (London, 1890), 108 (https://books.google.com/books?id=AH0_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA108). Found by John Brandon. [9] Will of Richard Thornton, PCC 274 Barrett (1708) folios 101-103, Ancestry. https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310726-00106/754610 [10] London All Hallows Lombard Street, parish registers, Ancestry. [11] Will of Peter Pett, PCC 50 Bath (1680) folio 394, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310575-00258/704599). [12] John M. L. Booker and Stephen Freeth, The Wiston Archives: A Catalogue (1975), 2:179. Found by John Brandon. (https://books.google.com/books?id=eOUIAQAAIAAJ&q=%22widow+and+executrix+of+richard+thornton%22&dq=%22widow+and+executrix+of+richard+thornton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHjsmVgKDUAhXF7SYKHfYeCHYQ6AEIKDAA) [13] London Inhabitants Within the Walls, London Record Soc. Pubs. 2 (London, 1966), pp. 285-299 (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/london-record-soc/vol2/pp285-299). [14] Will of St Leger Codd, dated 9 Sep 1706, proved 9 Feb 1707[/8], Maryland Prerogative Court, Vol. 12, p. 195, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/9068/007737516_00324). Abstracts: Will of William Pett Citizen and Apothecary of London Will dated:16 Jun 1692 Will proved:2 Dec 1692 by oaths of Richard Hoare and Richard Edmondson executors Requests burial at Coxton in the County of Kent as neare (to my late Father Mother and Brother who lye interred there) as may bee Capitall Messuage called Hewett house and severall Lands in parishes of Willesborough and Ashford al[ia]s Eshensford in the County of Kent, by indenture 23 Apr 1669, by fine and recovery, to the use of mee the said William Pett and Elizabeth my then wife (since deceased) and the heirs of our two bodies Two children by my late wife: Marriott Pett and Elizabeth Gell; in case they shall happen to dye without lawfull issue then and in such case I doe give devise and bequeath the said Messuages Lands and Tenements with thappurtenances unto my Cosen James Codd sonn of my late Sister Beatrix Codd deceased and to the heires of his body lawfully to bee begotten and for want of such issue to Beatrix Thornton wife of Richard Thornton and sister to the said James Codd, and to the heires of her body lawfully begotten or to bee begotten and for want of such issue then to remaine to my right heires for ever Whereas the aforesaid parish of Allhallowes Lumbard streete doth owe and is indebted unto mee £100 ... Note: Many others named, along with lands. Much of the will is illegible on Ancestry. He didn’t say his sister was a widow in the portion I read. PCC 230 Fane (1692) folios 279-281 https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310610-00753/978030 Will of Peter Pett Cittizen and Mercer of London Being sicke and weake in body Will dated: 1 Apr 1680 Will proved: 9 Apr 1680 by oath of brother William Pett Wife: Jane Pett £600 Kinswoman Elizabeth Codd daughter of St Leger Codd the sum[m]e of Fifty poundes Sister: Mary Bettenham £50 Nephew: Marriott Pett and niece Elizabeth Pett son and daughter of my Brother William Pett £50 each Brother: William Pett £100, residuary legatee, executor Friends and chapmen: John Freind of Canterbury, Thomas Marsden Junr., Samuell Fox of Rochester, Thomas Piper of Canterbury, and Edmond Harris of Canterbury 20s. each for rings Witnesses: Ro: Edmondson, Roger Thrupp[?], John Wing Scr[ivener] PCC 50 Bath (1680) folio 394 https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310575-00258/704599 Will of Richard Thornton of parish of Allhallows Lombard Street London Apothecary Will dated: 1 Feb 1704[/5] Will proved: 18 Nov 1708 by oath of relict Beatrix Thornton; power reserved to Richard Rider, Peter Pett Esq., and St. Nicholas Watts the other executors when they demand it Desires to be privately interred without Funerall pomp in the parish Church of Alhalows where I now dwell Bequest 40s. to poor of Allhallows Lombard Street Parish Executors: 20s. each for remembrance rings to Richard Ryder of London Skinner, Peter Pett of London Esqr., and St. Nicholas Watts of London Merchant Wife: Beatrix Thornton, executrix He has children who are under age 21 (not named) Witnesses: John Emes, Jno Hammerse, Henry Ellis, Samll. Stable PCC 274 Barrett (1708) folios 101-103, Ancestry. https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310726-00106/754610 Will of St Leger Codd of Cecill County in ye Province of Maryland Will dated: 9 Sep 1706 Will proved: 9 Feb 1707[/8] by oaths of witnesses Henry Anderson and Thos Simson; oath of Lothland Orchatt; Tho: Smyth renounced executorship [Relevant bequests:] Impr[imi]s I Give and bequeath to my Son James Codd all my Lands in the parishes of wateringbury Lenham & witchlin in the County of Kent in old England to him & his heirs Lawfully begotten forever and for want of such heirs my will is yt [that] all ye aforementioned Lands be Equilly devided between my two Sonns Berkley Codd and St Leger Codd & their heirs forever ... 4ly I Give to my Daughter Beatrix five pounds Ster[ling] & to my Daughter mary Perdison five shill[ings]. https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/9068/007737516_00324?pid=405124 Will of James Codd of the Parish of St Mary Matfellon al[ia]s White Chappel in the County of Middx Gentleman Will dated: 29 Oct 1715 Will proved: 5 May 1716 by oath of Jane Thornton executrix Has advanced £750 to Sir Thomas Style of Wateringbury, Kent, Barr[one]t; Style hath by Indentured of bargain Sale and demise 17 Jun 8 Anne, farm let to the said James Codd by the name of James Codd of Wateringbury, Gentleman, various lands [locations not specified]. Codd leaves these lands to his beloved niece Jane Thornton of the Parish of St Botolph Bishopsgate London Spinster, whom he appoints sole executrix. Trustees: Friends John Trowt of White Chappel Gentleman and Roger Osmond of the same Distiller, for their pains, two Guineas apiece Witnesses: Thomas Houmpharson Barber Tobias Harbrough Joyner John Coverly Serv[an]t to Mr Trowt Scr[ivener] all of White Chappell PCC 94 Fox (1716) folios 52-53, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310755-00422/1000863 Boyd’s Marriage Index 1660 Saint Leger Codd m. Beatrc Pett at Bermondsey St Mary Magdalen, Surrey St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey (Southwark Borough), Surrey 1660 Oct 23 St Leger Codde and Beatrix Pett marryed https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31280_199007-00283 London St Dionis Backchurch, Ancestry 1689 Jun 18 Richard Thornton of St Alhollowes Lombard Streett London and Beatrice Codd of ye same Parish were Maried ye Eighteenth day of June by Mr Blackall Lecherer https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_A101467-00062/6472453 London All Hallows Lombard Street, Ancestry 1691 Jul 16 Jane the Daughter of Richard & Beatrix Thornton was Baptized 1693 Aug 22 Mary the Daughter of Richard & Beatrix Thornton was Baptized 1694 Oct 07 Ann the Daufter of Richard & Beatrix Thornton was Baptized 1695 Oct 11 Richard the Sonn of Richard & Beatrix Thornton was Baptized 1696 Dec 09 Thomas the Sonn of Richard & Beatrix Thornton Baptized 1698 Apr 10 Mary the Daughter of Richard & Beatrix Thornton was born & Baptized 1699 Aug 06 Elizabeth the Daughter of Richard & Betrix Thornton was Baptized Percival Boyd, Inhabitants of London, findmypast.co.uk St Leger Codd S[on] & h[eir] bapt. Lenham, 23 Aug. 1638 mar. 18 May 1667 Beatrice da. of Anne Pett of Millsborough. St Leger Codd, of Wateringbury etc. bp. 1638 Nov 23, adm. To Gray’s Inn 9 May 1656 m. Beatrice daur of Amy Pitt of Millsborough 18 May 1667, aet. 18. Source: MSS. Chart Ped. by J. Harvey Bloom St Leger Codd, of Wateringbury & Barbadoes, s[on] & h[eir] bapt. Lenham 23 Aug 1638, adm. To Gray’s Inn 1656, m. 18 May 1667 Beatrice d. of Anne Pett of Hillsborough, then aet. 18. His brother Anthony Codd, of St Martin in Fields ? Draper conveyed lands in Nettlested to James Codd. Source: MS. Chart Ped. by J. Harvey Bloom [Question (NWM): Is this James Codd the son of St Leger Codd?] Nathan

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:59:47 PM UTC-3, taf wrote: > On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 4:31:53 PM UTC-7, J.L. Fernandez Blanco wrote: > > > Wow! Thank you for the link. I wasn't aware of the 10-year paywall. I've > > downloaded it to read as I was not very convinced by Margarita Torres- > > Sevilla's reconstruction, even though it has acquired a status of "almost > > definitive." > > I too was never entirely comfortable with her reconstruction, for one of the reasons Martinez Diez mentioned - the children of Flain Munoz, by both wives, seemed to be well documented with no Diego, and he just seemed to be forced in. That and a resistence to the general pattern where every noble family is made a younger branch of a small number of premier families. (For example, in Ireland, the way every family is made to descend from the kings one wonders who exactly they ruled over). > > That being said, I don't for a minute think the descent of El Cid from Lain Calvo can be taken for granted, based on the testimony of Historia Roderici. I don't know where the historical horizon is (the point at which authentic historical memory ends and before which is legend and tradition), but I doubt it is that far back, especially when we have the parallel of the Lara pedigree, which is completely fantastical. In one of the last papers Martínez Díez published, he went back over some of Menéndez Pidal's identifications in the Siete Infantes tale and concluded the only named figures that can be considered fully historical are count Garcia Fernandez, Almanzor, and one Cordoba general, Ghalib al-Nasiri. > > Gonzalo Martínez Díez, El Cantar de los siete infantes de Lara: la historia y la leyenda. Cahiers d'études hispaniques médiévales. no. 37:171-189 (2014). [http://www.cairn.info/article.php?ID_ARTICLE=CEHM_037_0171] > > taf Well, if it serves for something, one of my great-aunts (a sister to my paternal grandmother) who was illiterate half of her life (she started school at 45 and died at 92), could recite her paternal ancestry upto the 6th generation, spouses included, and on her maternal side, she could do the same upto the 7th generation. When I was I child I used to go to her house and we (my cousins, my brother and I) would sit under a centenarian apple-tree and she'd tell us those stories. Except for me, who always brought a notebook and a pen to take notes (at 8 years old!), the rest of the lot couldn't care less. When I grew up, I found out that all she knew, except in just one case (the first name, but not the last, which was correct) of one of her ancestress on the maternal side, at the 6th generation level, she had memorized (remember, she started as illiterate and never was a genealogist) all that vast information in an astonishingly accurate way. Even the places where they had been born were pretty accurate. She even knew the names of all her kinship on both sides of the family starting with her third cousins. That was prodigious for me. And a blessing because when I grew up I could start working--even though I had not much faith in what I had written down--with some material. To my completely disbelief, she was right! Her line of the family is the one I know the best. My mother only remembers her grandparents and my brother and cousins don't even know who their grandparents were. This is not to say that the Historia Roderici is accurate but she came from an area not disimilar to the one where the Cid's family belonged. She was from the mountains in Asturias (de Oviedo), and her family owned lands both in the mountain and the valleys and in some surrounding villages. When I traveled to Spain in my late 20's doing research, I was amazed at the memory the older generations still had. Now, when I went to Avilés, where one of my uncles lived, he didn't even know the name of his grandparents. Maybe the isolation, the fact that both her paternal and maternal families were patrons of churches, where many of those ancestors are interred, and who knows what else, were all contributing factors for her to learn the stories handed down generation after generation in those horrid winter nights in the mountains. Nothing to do, what else than tell stories about the family? The difference among her sides of the family and my mother's is that my mother grew up in a city, La Coruña. Well, after this little story, I'm going to read the other link you sent, which I was not aware of. For years now, I've been mostly dealing with European genealogies and haven't focused so much on Spain...maybe it's time to return to it! Thanks again.

On 3/06/2017 10:29 AM, Nancy Piccirilli wrote: > Hi everyone, happy summer. I have become interested in one Burchard, Bishop > of Worms, and would like to know a bit about his family. He had a brother > Franco, also Bishop of Worms, and a sister, an Abbess of an unknown abbey. > Burchard was a noted canonist, and Mathilda was famous as a maker of > "sumptuous clothes." They were the children of a noble family in Hesse, > Germany, but I cannot find their parents' names. Can anyone tell me? > Their parents' names are unknown - you can find an English translation of Burchard's Vita here: http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1025burchard-vita.asp Peter Stewart

On 3/06/2017 8:43 AM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >> Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart >> escreveu: >>> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy >>>> was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the >>>> chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who >>>> probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and >>>> part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain >>>> ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was >>>> probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the >>>> Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi >>>> of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source >>>> about the House of Este. This particular connection is very >>>> interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este >>>> male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself >>>> male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the >>>> House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female >>>> generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the >>>> theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this >>>> newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>>> comments are welcome. >>> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >>> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >>> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >>> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not >>> enough >>> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >>> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >>> >>> Peter Stewart >> What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their >> respective thesis. > > There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book > in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such > luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It > is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily > reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, > that is simply inadmissable. > > Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido > of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his > brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that > he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo > denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins. > Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no > possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was > by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then > overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any > case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together > with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no > reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business. > > In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more > substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link > him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not > accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's > possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name > Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent > from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also > Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto. I should have added that this conjecture of Pallavicino was based on a theory first proposed by Pietro Ferrari in *La chiesa di S.Bartolomeo 'de donnicato' vicino a Pontremoli, gli Adalberti e le origini obertenghe* (1938), and developed by Ubaldo Formentini in 'La terza dinastia dei conti di Parma e le origini obertenghe', *Archivio storico per le provincie parmensi*, quarta serie 1 (1945-48). Peter Stewart

On 3/06/2017 3:31 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: > Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu: >> On 2/06/2017 4:16 AM, Paulo Canedo wrote: >>> Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of ! Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also, >>> comments are welcome. >> There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's >> contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is >> Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably >> descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough >> evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count) >> in April 945 to pin down his origin. >> >> Peter Stewart > What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respective thesis. There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, that is simply inadmissable. Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins. Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business. In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto. Peter Stewart

On 2/06/2017 9:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote: > > > On 2/06/2017 6:56 PM, Doug Thompson wrote: >> On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 11:00:29 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote: >>> On 2/06/2017 5:56 AM, Doug Thompson wrote: >>>> I know this is adding another possible layer of confusion but - >>>> >>>> What if, during Wm de Braose's custody of Elmley he married Berta >>>> to the heir. That would have been William, Walter's older brother >>>> who died in 1211. The Tebury jurors may then have had a correct >>>> descent of the land from William to Walter etc. but, since it was >>>> before their own lifetimes, made an assumption that the William was >>>> Walter's father rather than his brother! >>>> >>>> Since this is the only evidence for a Braose Beachamp marriage at >>>> all, the small error may have caused us all this confusion. It >>>> would seem to fit the time scales better than a marriage to the >>>> father, who seems to have had a wife called Amice according to many. >>> The younger William de Beauchamp (brother of Walter) is said to have >>> married Jeanne de Saint-Valery and to have died at around 20 years of >>> age. Can you let us know if you think this is incorrect, and what the >>> evidence is? >>> >>> Peter Stewart >> I have seen Joan de St Valery married to two different Williams in >> the pedigree but not this one before! I thought she was invented as a >> device to explain the Beachamp possession of the Tetbury lands, which >> Bertha's marriage does better. >> >> Is there any evidence at all for the existence of this Joan de St >> Valery? > > I was hoping you would answer this - I have no idea. There is an > article on the St Valery family by Herbert Fowler in *The > Genealogist*, new series 30 (1914) pp 1-16 & table, but unfortunately > Internet Archive is having pathway troubles and can't be accessed > (from Australia anyway) at present, so I can't find out if Joan is > mentioned there. I got there through a proxy server, and she is not mentioned by Fowler - a fairly good indication that she probably didn't exist. Peter Stewart