Contact me off list and I will provide this info privately Joecook @gmail

Hello all, I had a question regarding Gary Boyd Roberts' work "The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants," regarding one of the lines in there. I was unable to find a work email for Mr. Roberts, at least on wikipedia, just a link to the New England Historical Genealogical Society. Is that who I should contact with any questions? Thank you- Nick

On 17/06/2017 4:55 PM, taf wrote: > On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:54:13 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: >> In a 2016 article available here: >> >> http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18 >> >> Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I >> the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St >> Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that >> Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega. >> >> The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor >> Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through >> the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of >> Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos). >> >> The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega, >> is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English >> wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter >> Richlind, duchess of Swabia. > Unfortunate error in the last table. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, with Christopher Lekapenos having a brother Christopher Lekapenos, who married Christopher Lekapenos. (The latter couple, of course, are Helena Lekapene and Constantine VII.) It caps the repetition by mistakenly giving the triplicate Christopher the death date of his father (all three times). She does the same thing with Richlind in that last table, repeating her name four times, in a line that is supposed to consist of Otto I, Liudolf, Richlind and (? Adela). It looks like she copied the cells in the table intending to substitute in the other names, then never got around to making the swap (and it doesn't speak well for the editor that something this obvious would not be detected, assuming the PDF represents the final published form). > > I note she also shows Empress Theophanu, wife of Otto II, as daughter of Romanos II, a placement that is very much out of favor. Thanks for explaining, I didn't take further notice of the tables after seeing the generations were weirdly skew-whiff with Richlind as her own daughter, granddaughter, etc - unfortunately this kind of carelessness is not too unusual in Ukrainian publications. It's interesting that some historians are prepared to base theories on the names given for princes of Rus' when these are so often inaccurate, in this case relying on "Odo" being correct but his stated relationship to Roman literally not. I have some shares in the Brooklyn bridge available for anyone who would buy into either side of that. Peter Stewart

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 5:36:55 PM UTC-4, John Watson wrote: ... > > Douglas' source if hidden away among the footnotes at the bottom of the page: > > Trinity Term, 2 Edward III, 1328, Warwickshire. The executors of the will of Ida late the wife of John de Clynton, sued John Pecche the elder and John Murdak in a plea of debt. Court of Common Pleas: CP 40/274 25d. > Index of Placita de Banco, Part II, Lists and Indexes, 32 (1910), 681. > > Since Ida had executors, she must have left a will, but it is very unlikely that it has survived. > > Regards, > > John Here is the image of CP 40/274 25d: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no274/bCP40no274dorses/IMG_0049.htm

In a 2016 article available here: http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18 Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega. The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos). The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega, is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter Richlind, duchess of Swabia. I think this is far-fetched, but then there is probably nowhere left except far to fetch another Agatha hypothesis from. St Boris is known to have married at a young age, not long before he and his brother St Gleb were killed, usually placed in 1015 (but possibly in 1017 according to Yasynetska). The hypothesis relies heavily on onomastics and also on a rather forced interpretation of a passage in a 13th-century Polish chronicle, stating that Maria-Dobronega was daughter of the Russian prince Roman son of Odo/Otto ("Kazimirus ... duxit uxorem, filiam Romani principis Russiae filii Odonis nomine Dobronegam, alias dictam Maria"). Yasynetska thinks that Boris-Roman was described as "son of Odo/Otto" as the husband of a descendant of the emperor. She suggests that the connection to St Boris was "carefully hushed up" due to embarrassment by Roman Catholics about descent from an Eastern Orthodox saint. However, in my view this is highly unlikely as the official line was that saints from before the Great Schism (and indeed Russian saints from afterwards) were acceptable in the West. Peter Stewart

On Saturday, 17 June 2017 19:42:26 UTC+1, Nicola Lowe wrote: > Dear Douglas Richardson, > > First, thanks for a magnificent job in compiling 'Magna Carta Ancestry'. Can you help with a query please? I am looking for the will of Ida de Clinton who died in office as Abbess of Wroxall Abbey in 1325. Your page 514 says she dies testate but I wonder if you could tell me what the source is please and where I might see the will if it still exists. Thank you > > Nicola Lowe Douglas' source if hidden away among the footnotes at the bottom of the page: Trinity Term, 2 Edward III, 1328, Warwickshire. The executors of the will of Ida late the wife of John de Clynton, sued John Pecche the elder and John Murdak in a plea of debt. Court of Common Pleas: CP 40/274 25d. Index of Placita de Banco, Part II, Lists and Indexes, 32 (1910), 681. Since Ida had executors, she must have left a will, but it is very unlikely that it has survived. Regards, John

Thanks, Joe! This is just what I needed.

Dear Douglas Richardson, First, thanks for a magnificent job in compiling 'Magna Carta Ancestry'. Can you help with a query please? I am looking for the will of Ida de Clinton who died in office as Abbess of Wroxall Abbey in 1325. Your page 514 says she dies testate but I wonder if you could tell me what the source is please and where I might see the will if it still exists. Thank you Nicola Lowe

On 17/06/17 06:43, Vance Mead wrote: > Here is an early entry in Common Pleas for Wordsworth/Wordelworth in Peniston, Yorks: > > Easter term, 1432, second entry: > Yorks. Dean and canons of the free chapel within Westminster Palace, by John Lake, attorney, versus William Wordelworth of Penyston, yeoman, for trespass: breaking and entering an enclosure and house belonging to the dean and canons at Penyston, and carrying away goods and chattels worth 10 pounds at Langsyde and Thorleston. > Thanks, Vance. I'll have to try to get the Wordsworths into my head again to find out how a William fits in with those locations. -- Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng at austonley org uk

The census will take you to 1801, the parish records (baptisms, marriages and deaths) to 1538 (with luck). Before that, the best place to start would be: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml And particularly the feet of fines: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/search.php Some useful sources (searchable and online) are : Patent rolls: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/search.html Medieval soldiers: http://www.medievalsoldier.org/database/maindbsearch.php Legal records (common pleas): http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html A couple more: http://www.british-history.ac.uk http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk Also useful might be wills, tax records (lay subsidy and poll tax), but I’m not sure what’s available online or in print for Yorkshire. I’m sure others here can recommend other sources. Also, for many of these records, the spelling to check might be Thwaites, Thwaytes, Thweytes and other variations. > I've used censuses, marriage and death records, as well as combined family records. Possibly that would be sufficient.

I've used censuses, marriage and death records, as well as combined family records. Possibly that would be sufficient.

I suppose this must be the same man in 1440? Easter 1440, second full entry: London. William Chapman versus John Thwaytes, of Lofthous, Yorks, gentleman, for debt (and others). http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/bCP40no717dorses/IMG_1905.htm

I suppose this must be the same many in 1440? Easter 1440, second full entry: London. William Chapman versus John Thwaytes, of Lofthous, Yorks, gentleman, for debt (and others). http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/bCP40no717dorses/IMG_1905.htm

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:54:13 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote: > In a 2016 article available here: > > http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18 > > Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I > the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St > Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that > Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega. > > The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor > Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through > the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of > Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos). > > The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega, > is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English > wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter > Richlind, duchess of Swabia. Unfortunate error in the last table. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, with Christopher Lekapenos having a brother Christopher Lekapenos, who married Christopher Lekapenos. (The latter couple, of course, are Helena Lekapene and Constantine VII.) It caps the repetition by mistakenly giving the triplicate Christopher the death date of his father (all three times). She does the same thing with Richlind in that last table, repeating her name four times, in a line that is supposed to consist of Otto I, Liudolf, Richlind and (? Adela). It looks like she copied the cells in the table intending to substitute in the other names, then never got around to making the swap (and it doesn't speak well for the editor that something this obvious would not be detected, assuming the PDF represents the final published form). I note she also shows Empress Theophanu, wife of Otto II, as daughter of Romanos II, a placement that is very much out of favor. For those keeping score, this solution would make Agatha the 'daughter of a Russian prince' and 'niece' (younger kinswoman) of both Emperors Henry (II & III), but would not match the sources making her close kinswoman (daughter or sister-in-law) of the Hungarian rulers. Curiously, it would make Agatha grandniece of Mathilda, Abbess of Essen, to whom Æthelweard the Historian addressed his chronicle. taf

This is in Hilary term 1449, second entry: Northumb. Robert Elryngton, of Esperheles, esq, versus Johm Warde, of Newcastle upon Tyne, merchant, for a debt of 20 pounds. http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no752/aCP40no752fronts/IMG_0198.htm This would be Espershields in the parish of Bywell St Peter. It's about 10 miles from East Elrington, where there was a Robert Elryngton. Not sure if it's the same person.

On Saturday, 17 June 2017 01:09:36 UTC+1, Linda Tate Wilson wrote: > On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 11:55:44 AM UTC-5, wjhonson wrote: > > On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 6:42:07 PM UTC-7, Linda Tate Wilson wrote: > > > I have traced back in ancestry to John Thwaites, born in 1305 near Yorkshire, England and died in 1360 near Denton, Yorkshire, England. He had a son, Thomas Thwaites, born in 1330 and died in 1399 also in or near Denton, Yorkshire, England. > > > > > > Has anyone here been on that line of Thwaites? > > > > I would say your first problem, is that these particular birth and death years cannot be supported. > > > > You need to come a bit forward in time, and *cement* your facts with reputable sources before you build a house of cards here. > > Thanks for your input, for what it's worth. Troll much? Dear Linda, To try and clarify. About 1430, John Thwaites of Lofthouse, near Harewood, Yorkshire (died before October 1469) acquired the manor of Denton by purchase or grant. So earlier generations of this family were not from Denton. This John Thwaites was almost certainly the son of Thomas Thwaites of Lofthouse who was living in 1411. There is very little information in contemporary records regarding earlier generations of this Thwaites family. A Thomas Thwaites died on 15 October 1356 holding land in Lofthouse and leaving a son and heir Robert aged 5 years. The generation(s) between Robert Thwaites and Thomas, father of John Thwaites is unclear. See: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 10, Edward III (1921), 292, No. 343. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol10/pp292-305 Do not trust "internet pedigrees" they are often based on imagination and guesswork. Regards, John

And the link (the fingers are faster than the brain): http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no685/bCP40no685dorses/IMG_1502.htm

Here is an early entry in Common Pleas for Wordsworth/Wordelworth in Peniston, Yorks: Easter term, 1432, second entry: Yorks. Dean and canons of the free chapel within Westminster Palace, by John Lake, attorney, versus William Wordelworth of Penyston, yeoman, for trespass: breaking and entering an enclosure and house belonging to the dean and canons at Penyston, and carrying away goods and chattels worth 10 pounds at Langsyde and Thorleston.

It is not unreasonable to ask you to provide reputable sources. > > Thanks for your input, for what it's worth. Troll much?

José Verheecke web site, 'Princes of Belgium' - Google Search | | | José Verheecke web site, 'Princes of Belgium' - Google Search | | | From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, June 16, 2017 10:35 AM Subject: José Verheecke Does anyone know where José Verheecke's website, 'Princes of Belgium' has gone? It was a wonderful place, full of all kinds of information. I can't seem to find it on the web anymore. Any help would be appreciated. Bill ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message