Dear Freddie, I am usually pretty quiet about these things, but I feel I need to interject here. It is true that there are several "fake" coats of arms out there, but there are also very legitimate noble families. As a professional Italian genealogist, I have several different sets of books that list scores and scores of titled Italian families. (Including the Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliare Italiana, Libro D'oro, Dizionario Blasonico, and Dizionario Araldico.) For most Italians in Italy that is all they are concerned with is the study of heraldry. The moment I walked into the Archivio di Stato di Florence (State Archive of Florence) and asked about genealogy, the director of the facility pointed me to their collections on heraldry and not to their collections of the "commoners." It is not surprising that one of the few genealogy schools in Italy focuses on heraldry. Please see: http://www.iagi.info As for the Dujam de Judicibus tree and the website dedicated to it, I am not certain. But that was not my point. He is not trying to sell anything, but simply trying to research his tree like everyone else. My concluding point is that you are correct that there are scams out there, but the legitimate heraldic trees that have been proved by rigorous genealogical study should not be shunted or discounted. Sincerely, Suzanne Russo Adams, AG Accredited Genealogist(r) and AG(r) are certification marks of the International Commission for the Accreditation of Professional Genealogists. -----Original Message----- From: Freddie the Crook Finder [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 8:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 1415 Split - Dujam de Judicibus On 8 Jun 2004 17:05:17 -0700, [email protected] (Dr) wrote: >Hi Dario (Ciao) >I am wondering if you have someting on Venetian and Dalmatian heraladic rules? >Rgds. You guys are kidding, right? Say your kidding. Seriously, it is a blessing that this newsgroup does not see more of this coat of arms baloney being discussed. I expect it is because most people who participate in this newsgroup are way too serious to play that game. Thank God. Literally millions of dollars have been spent chasing the elusive coat of arms/family crest. Let's backup 30 to 35 years ago when the "genealogy kiosk" could be found in many shopping malls. There you'd find a person who would enter your surname into a computer. More often than not, Viola, up would pop your very own coat of arms. You could get a very fine printed copy of this, for a fee, of course. Also available were T shirts, cofee mugs, a leather bound one of a kind "Family History". All sorts of goodies were available. If the computer found nothing for your name, it was no problem at all to have a coat of arms or a family tree generated for you. While it may be hard to believe that this litrtle money maker is still around, fear not. See: http://genealogy.about.com/library/weekly/aa101501d.htm They are everywhere. Do a google search for <coats of arms scam>. You would think that the level of sophistication of the public today would be such that people in this "branch" of genealogy could not exist...wrong. It may be that some people just do not know better, or perhaps it's as simple as an ego trip. Whatever it is, it ain't genealogy! Freddie Freddie The Crook Finder is a free service of Freddie who's sole mission in life is to help people keep more of their own money in their own pockets.

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:23:36 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] ("Suzanne Russo Adams") wrote: >Dear Freddie, > >I am usually pretty quiet about these things, but I feel I need to >interject here. It is true that there are several "fake" coats of arms >out there, but there are also very legitimate noble families. As a >professional Italian genealogist, I have several different sets of books >that list scores and scores of titled Italian families. (Including the >Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliare Italiana, Libro D'oro, Dizionario >Blasonico, and Dizionario Araldico.) Thank you for your kindness, but I must add, "Me thinks thou dost protest too loudly", way too loudly. I love books but as an avid reader for nearly 70 years, I have to tell you there are no shortage of books written for nuts by nuts.Really. Most of our ancestors left Italy because of abject poverty. That those folks or any of their descendants, save the most pompus, care anything about coats of arms or family crests is... well everyone just add their own word. Would there be an interest in this type of thing in the more prosperous north of Italy? Sure. Do people who limit their geneological searching to pretty drawings on paper severely limit any results they might get? Without a doubt. >For most Italians in Italy that is all they are concerned with is the >study of heraldry. The moment I walked into the Archivio di Stato di >Florence (State Archive of Florence) and asked about genealogy, the >director of the facility pointed me to their collections on heraldry and >not to their collections of the "commoners." Commoners? Tell that to my father who arrived a child, and died a year ago a very succesful business man. Tell it to my mother who learned to sew out of neccesity and paid back by teaching those less fortunate to sew. >It is not surprising that one of the few genealogy schools in Italy >focuses on heraldry. Please see: http://www.iagi.info Of course not. It's a given that Native Italians could care less about ancestors the way we Italian Americans do. They are also pompus and grandeous to just love coats/crests. >As for the Dujam de Judicibus tree and the website dedicated to it, I am >not certain. But that was not my point. He is not trying to sell >anything, but simply trying to research his tree like everyone else. He really was not my point either. He's just the poor soul who brought up my favorite non subject. >My concluding point is that you are correct that there are scams out >there, but the legitimate heraldic trees that have been proved by >rigorous genealogical study should not be shunted or discounted. Actually we agree for the most part, only I put the number of crooks in the genealogy business (especially the coat of arms/family crest sales people) a lot higher than you do. Talk to people who investigate mail fraud. It is a booming business. What surprised me was that the subject would even come up in a group usually so knowledgeable in genealogy. I'd wager most folks who frequent this group would much rather have a nice family tree with 15 or 16 hundred ancestore going back 10 or 15 generations than some goofy coat of arms. Freddie