Hi Paula, Sorry, I tried to write you off LIST, but my letter to you came back.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah Vivona Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:54 AM To: Tea Cup Subject: Re: "Family Crest" yesme@Iamhere Good Morning Tea Cup, "Thank you," for your kind words and the information. Somehow what and how you explained it, didn't hurt....I was hurt and embarrassed that I had shared something that I was going to be cross stitching on with all of the LIST that I thought others were be interested in to. But, if through my ignorance of crests ,my choice of ignorance has saved others of throwing away their money, then something good did come out of it. Yes, what the English woman, CARNIVAL (?) said was kind too and appreciated...I do have a room such as her "genie" room! As usual, your wise words, are greatly received and warmly taken. "Thank you" for teaching me so politely. I will think of you in a week as I cross stitch in Italy, fondly, and I will keep my ears and eyes open for other Nigros as I continue to search for Vivonas. You have been a friend as Mary Nigro was to our Grandmother Sadie Vivona was in Kansas City.... Thank you, Sincerely, Deborah Vivona ----- Original Message ----- From: Tea Cup Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 2:13 AM To: GEN-ITALIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: "Family Crest" yesme@Iamhere "Deborah Vivona" wrote in message news:OE157sKd6QR7j1HaKtK0003620f@hotmail.com > Dear NOT ME @ NOT There, > Yes, you did burst my bubble... Hello, Well actually it sounded more like he was trying to protect you and anyone else who might fall for these schemes since this is a global newsgroup with many readers. Guys can sometimes be overly blunt but if Frank F would have tipsy-toed around the situation many people might not have understood as quickly. That old saying you quoted did not apply to accurate research, it was about "bad hair" days, a cake that didn't rise and things of that order. In research it is not about "if you can't say something nice don't say it" In research it is all about *Truth otherwise it is Fraud* Although his delivery tends to be rough It Truly seems like he just wants protect you and others from throwing away huge sums of money on this sort of thing and to help you understand the importance of accuracy. There are those poor souls out there who pay BIG bucks to have some phony bunch of heraldic papers given to them. The Italian Government has closed down 3 of them within the past 2 years, one in Roma and two in Firenze, for fraud in the millions$$. Purchasing a cute little pillow or piece of paper won't hurt anyone, if it stops there, but it is important to be truthful to oneself and to keep truthful records for future generations. Genealogy research is a little like bookkeeping. One may wish to believe they have thus and such but it is important to truly "count the beans" (so to speak). An honest Inventory is not wishful thinking...just the facts. Simply put: Many people share the same surname as some person way, way, way back in time who was raised to the ranks of nobility because of something he did for the King or the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperor. When he died or retired even his eldest son would need *approval* from the monarch (or someone in charge) in order to have the Title and Family Crest passed on down to him. The younger boys did not get it (unless the eldest son died) and the girls did not in most cases. Some sovereigns and titled people were women only because there were no male heirs and a special dispensation was granted. Most people who share those surnames worked at the castle...they didn't own it. Plus many "so called" Family Crests, like the ones Frank F found on > "thisisfake" and "ripoff". They had crests for all four names. > Never existed and are Totally Fake. Maybe you will feel better if you do as the English (?) woman who posts here does (the one with the Italian husbands surname) as she said... do it for "fun" . in your "genie room" Best wishes, Paula Marie Nigro ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer http://www.angelfire.com/hi3/brainseed/truth.html ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

"Deborah Vivona" wrote in message news:OE157sKd6QR7j1HaKtK0003620f@hotmail.com > Dear NOT ME @ NOT There, > Yes, you did burst my bubble... Hello, Well actually it sounded more like he was trying to protect you and anyone else who might fall for these schemes since this is a global newsgroup with many readers. Guys can sometimes be overly blunt but if Frank F would have tipsy-toed around the situation many people might not have understood as quickly. That old saying you quoted did not apply to accurate research, it was about "bad hair" days, a cake that didn't rise and things of that order. In research it is not about "if you can't say something nice don't say it" In research it is all about *Truth otherwise it is Fraud* Although his delivery tends to be rough It Truly seems like he just wants protect you and others from throwing away huge sums of money on this sort of thing and to help you understand the importance of accuracy. There are those poor souls out there who pay BIG bucks to have some phony bunch of heraldic papers given to them. The Italian Government has closed down 3 of them within the past 2 years, one in Roma and two in Firenze, for fraud in the millions$$. Purchasing a cute little pillow or piece of paper won't hurt anyone, if it stops there, but it is important to be truthful to oneself and to keep truthful records for future generations. Genealogy research is a little like bookkeeping. One may wish to believe they have thus and such but it is important to truly "count the beans" (so to speak). An honest Inventory is not wishful thinking...just the facts. Simply put: Many people share the same surname as some person way, way, way back in time who was raised to the ranks of nobility because of something he did for the King or the Pope or the Holy Roman Emperor. When he died or retired even his eldest son would need *approval* from the monarch (or someone in charge) in order to have the Title and Family Crest passed on down to him. The younger boys did not get it (unless the eldest son died) and the girls did not in most cases. Some sovereigns and titled people were women only because there were no male heirs and a special dispensation was granted. Most people who share those surnames worked at the castle...they didn't own it. Plus many "so called" Family Crests, like the ones Frank F found on > "thisisfake" and "ripoff". They had crests for all four names. > Never existed and are Totally Fake. Maybe you will feel better if you do as the English (?) woman who posts here does (the one with the Italian husbands surname) as she said... do it for "fun" . in your "genie room" Best wishes, Paula Marie Nigro ------------------------------------------------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer http://www.angelfire.com/hi3/brainseed/truth.html

Looking for a distant relative, Giovanni "Johnny" Spallino (born in Italy around 1900) who married Jennie Alessi. Jennie died in 1927 in Amite, La.

Dear NOT ME @ NOT There, Yes, you did burst my bubble...there is a sucker born every day...and today was my day! I got so much enjoyment in being sent my family surname crest that I wanted to share to with all of you...the ones that share my love of family ancestry! The younger generation didn't grow up hearing the saying," If you can't say something nice ,don't say anything at all," Or the verse, "do on to others as you would have them do on to you." But...what you said was probably 100% correct! I too, had read and bought "MY Family History" from a kiosks in the mall. Our history said our VIVONAs all came from BIVONA Sicily! I have yet to find a single VIVONA from there. I have talked to VIVONAS in Trapani, and Canada and Australia and Flordia, New Jersey, Nevada...not one VIVONA ancestor has come from Bivona! Before, I ordered this family crest, I too, thought, these Vivonas that wanted an opportunity for a better life for their children probably didn't come over to America bearing a VIVONA Coat of Arms! Our Vivona ancestor left his 6 brothers and his parents and all his relatives! They were hard working and from what relatives have told me, and a little 'bitter' that their home country held no future for them. I don't think the VIVONA shoemaker put little family crests on all the shoes he made nor did the VIVONA carpenter burn the crest on the cabinets he made! They wanted their children that they brought with them from Sicily and the ones that they birthed in ! the US to speak English and be American! They wanted their children to have the freedom of CHOICE... Which brings me to this: I made the CHOICE to order and receive the VIVONA family crest. A computer may have randomly chosen it for me. As "POLLYANNA" as it sounds, I usually choose to look for the good in circumstances such as this one....the crest that was sent to me bearing our family name had a knight's helmet & shield- as a parents shields his family from the evils of this world; a star- whether you go to sleep in Sicily or the US we all fall asleep under one starry sky at night and the crest that was sent to me had an olive branch- a symbol of PEACE: Peace be with you... I could be cross stitching a pattern of flowers in Italy in a couple weeks...but I Choose to cross stitch on what someone says is my VIVONA family crest...and I choose for it to still bring me joy!Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Over the years, I've come across to excellent sources for discovering "Coats of Arms". One is a book called (in English) the "Golden Book" and another is microfilm holdings of the LDS. The university of San Francisco has a copy of this book in their holdings. Excellent documented source of Italian coats of arms. The Microfilm was of 14th (?) century records where the coat of arm is sketched out and in many cases, a pedigree chart follows. Perhaps someone on the list can come up with the film number and maybe another source for the Golden Books. I don't believe the Library of Congress has a copy, but I have persued this. BTW, none of my ancestors show up in the list<g>.

On 19 May 2002 11:21:24 -0600, CCarnivale@aol.com wrote: >That was my subtle way of saying what you said. My "crest" is for a family >named for a place. That's the consensus of where this name comes from, from >every reference I have seen. So, in the beginning, are we ALL kin or was it >that our ancestors came from the same county in England? >So, who was this "crest" for? None were any more than farmers. I fact the >name comes from, partly, the word "Farm." >They are fun, if we remember that. I am framing the one I have, from another >family, (it came with a book on the surname). It is just something to hang in >my genie room, like a picture that that is pretty and colorful. Like the >greeting card of a Virginia church where they congregated, but which I can >connect directly with. >Everybody is out to make a buck, if you remember that, you aren't gipped. >Carleen > I picked up on your being subtle and your healthy attitude about everybody being out to make a buck. Your right. But I worry about the folks who actually believe this crest mubo jumbo. They are gipped, and that's never good. There's a town in Italy with the same name as my surname. I'd wager I could get any number of these crest salesmen to offer me that towns crest as my family crest, but that would be a lie and they would know it. The crest they would want to sell me would be a civic insignia and have nothing to do with my family. I happen to know that, at least for 9 generations, none of my ancestors ever lived anywhere near the town in question. It's also well inside the realm of possibility that some distant ancestor moved and founded a town with his surname. So, the fact that more than one fast buck artist will say that the Jones name originated among folks who lived in Jonesville, appears to lend credence to the scam, it means nothing. Frank F.

I obtained my family (Surname) family crest from Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas a few years ago and also from Halibuts in Ohio many years before that. I also obtained two long stem glasses from Sears and Roebuck with my Surname carved into the glass. I believe JC Penny's was also offering it at the same time. They all related that my family came from Amalfi and Nicola Setaro was given the title of Count and a yearly sum of gold in the 1300's by the king of Italy or the Two Sicily's at that time. Unfortunately he must have gambled away the title along with his money. For if I was a descendant from this noble person, I wonder why all my relatives as far back as the late 1700's were illiterate dirt farmers. I have stolen this persons family crest and have illegally used it for years to please my ego. Is that not why were seek a family crest to show others that we have descended from royalty and to please our ego. Mike Setaro

That was my subtle way of saying what you said. My "crest" is for a family named for a place. That's the consensus of where this name comes from, from every reference I have seen. So, in the beginning, are we ALL kin or was it that our ancestors came from the same county in England? So, who was this "crest" for? None were any more than farmers. I fact the name comes from, partly, the word "Farm." They are fun, if we remember that. I am framing the one I have, from another family, (it came with a book on the surname). It is just something to hang in my genie room, like a picture that that is pretty and colorful. Like the greeting card of a Virginia church where they congregated, but which I can connect directly with. Everybody is out to make a buck, if you remember that, you aren't gipped. Carleen

On 18 May 2002 21:13:57 -0600, CCarnivale@aol.com wrote: >How do you >know who this crest was made for? >Carleen > You don't, although technically it could be said that the crest was made for the name you submit. Submit an unusual name, make one up as I mentioned in an earlier post or submit a series of letters that are no name at all. Somebody, possibly just some software will generate some giberish they'd be glad to sell you. Family crests are bad enough, but the coat of arms racket is even worse. Coats of arms were awarded to INDIVIDUALS, not Families. They were awarded, usually for acts of bravery. They were to be worn or displayed by the person they were awarded to, not the"family". Even if one could prove that an ancestor actually was awarded a coat of arms, it could properly be displayed as having been awarded to the particular ancestor; not the Family. Frank F. Frank F.

<CCarnivalewrote in message news:b2.bb55e42.2a18726e@aol.com... > Where on this site do you get to look at what you are ordering? How do you > know who this crest was made for? > Carleen > http://www.sog.org.uk/leaflets/arms.html "Armorial bearings do not appertain to all persons of a given surname but belong to and identify members of one particular family. Coats of arms and crests are a form of property and may rightfully be used only by the male-line descendants of the individual to whom they were first granted or allowed." For Further information do searches on www.google.com/ ... for: L'araldica, Heraldic, heraldica, Araldica, heraldry, Coat of Arms, Nobles, Family Crest, Nobility, Italian Nobility,

The new Surnames By Town database, http://SurnamesByTown.com, is now accepting submissions of surnames from researchers who already know the exact town in Potenza or Matera province where their ancestors lived. This database is designed to avoid wasting time on messages from people researching the same surname, but in a different place from your. If the lines cross, then presumably there must be an event in common, and both researchers would submit the surname(s) associated with the event, under the town where it happened. In other words, it's really not very useful to compare notes until they have something in common. See http://SurnamesByTown.com/Italy/Potenza/potenza.html to see how the database looks.

Where on this site do you get to look at what you are ordering? How do you know who this crest was made for? Carleen

On 18 May 2002 15:19:09 -0600, HeyItsDebV@msn.com (Deborah Vivona) wrote: >Hi, awhile back a LIST writer had mentioned a site STORE to go to find your family name crest. I found an ordered it a week ago and today, by an emailed attachment received it! I think with the AVERY T-Shirt Transfers it may even work to iron the family crest on a T-shirt! I also ordered the cross stitch pattern of our family crest. I don't know when a gift "to myself" has delighted me more! For those of you that cross stitch or know someone that does and MIGHT make it for you, what a family heirloom to pass down! I know what all my VIVONA relatives are getting for Christmas next year! >Go to: http://www.store.yahoo.com/4crests/ > >I plan to take this cross stitch pattern with me to Italy in a week and work on it there for the next 6 weeks! >Good luck, finding your family surnames! >Sincerely, Deborah > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > People, think. What makes anyone who's ancestors came to the States with everything they owned in a cardboard box think the family ever had a "crest"? These coat of arms, family crest outfits used to operate out of kiosks in shopping malls. True to form, the company mentioned above evidently never heard of a name it did not have a crest for. I entered four totally fake names, the last two were, "thisisfake" and "ripoff". They had crests for all four names. I really hate to burst someone's bubble, but think for a moment. Another one to be on guard against is the "Family Report" scam which consists of lists of the name in question from 'phone books. Franf F.

Basic outline on how to find your Italian Ancestors Records The only payment required is payment for the Government Records here and in Italy. You may also make a donation to the Church. No payment or "donation" is required to have others mail your letters or write them for you, etc. You do NOT have to join an organization and pay monthly dues to find your family tree. You do the research. YOU can do most of it yourself for the cost of postage and records ONLY. First: Gather documents here in the USA or where ever your ancestors immigrated. No matter where you live the steps are basically the same. Starting with yourself - go backwards gathering record by record, you to your parents, to grandparents, etc and finally to the town where the original immigrant was born because the most important step in doing your initial research is to find out exactly what comune in Italy your ancestors came from. Records such as Immigration papers, Birth records, Marriage Records, Death Records, Census Records, Ships Records, etc, (even copies of the original Social Security Number Applications) are all very useful in order to find out exactly where in Italy your ancestors resided and to pin-point their exact family tree. Here is a list of Where to Write for Vital Records in the United States: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/howto/w2w/alphabet.htm Here is a form for requesting the original Social Security Application on your ancestor. Generally, it will give you - your ancestor's place of birth and their parent's names including the mother's maiden name. (You can easily find the SS# on your ancestors official State Death Notice.): http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/ssn_app_request.html Almost everything you need in order to teach yourself to do Italian Family History Research or Genealogy Research in general will be found on this Genealogy Tools & Research page: http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/tools.html Writing to Italy: Read Steve Saviello's Tips - on How to Research by Mail, what Italian Records are available and what Archive in Italy has them: http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/saviello2.html After you know exactly which comune in Italy to write to, simply adapt and personalize David's Italian Form Letters to suit your needs. http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/Davids_form_letters.html Make changes using the Computer translation programs on the TOOLS Page and Italian Dictionaries & Phrase Books: http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/Italian_Latin_Translations.html Make sure to click on FORM LETTERS on the Tools page so that you can look at more examples to suit your personal needs: http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/tools_italy.html#italian.form.le tters Use this link to find the Postal and Province code for the comune in Italy in which you are doing your research. Type in the name of the comune at the " ....la LOCALITÀ" section: http://www.nonsolocap.it/ Double check it on the Official Italian Post Office Site: http://www.poste.it/ Use the Italian White Pages to find the exact street address of the comune (although addressing it the way shown in Steve Saviello's Tips will get the letter to the proper place because all your really need is the name of the comune, the name of the Archive Office you are sending it to, the Postal code and Province Code. If you are able to find the exact street address, then this is the format, which was recommend to me by the Officer in charge of the Ufficio Stato Civile of San Fele in October 2001. COMUNE DI SAN FELE (PZ) Ufficio dello Stato Civile Via Mazzini, 9 85020 SAN FELE (PZ) - ITALIA- *NOTE* The Census Office is the Anagrafe. The person in charge is the Officer of the Census = L'Ufficiale Di Anagrafe. The Civil Records Office is the Stato Civile. The person in charge is the Officer of the Civil Records = L'Ufficiale Di Stato Civile. Use the Italian White Pages to do specific address lookups: To look up the address of the town hall in the comune you are researching enter Municipio where it asks for Cognome. Sometimes I have used the word Municipale instead if nothing comes up for municipio or comune, or comune di or whatever else you can think of. Use the codes you got from the nonsolocap or Italian Post Office link above on whichever of these links is working at the moment you are searching: http://www.paginebianche.it/index.html or http://elenco.iol.it/elencotel/public/RicercaOmonimie.jsp or http://www.pronto.it/elenco/query.php Use this link to look up a church but if you are looking for a comune that starts with San or Santa and don't get a response use only the initial S. followed by Fele or whatever is part of the rest of the name. This link is generally reliable but always double-check everything as I have found mistakes in all the online lookups including this one and this link is not run by "the church", it is simply a private commercial endeavor: http://www.parrocchie.it You can double-check your answers by doing Church lookups on the Italian Yellow Pages. On different days and different churchs I have found results by doing a searches for - chiesa, chiesa cattolica, chiesa parrocchia, parrocchia and other variations. David Zerga recommends this phrase: Chiesa cattolica - servizi parrocchiali For some reason all searches, on all days, do not get the same responses. http://www.paginegialle.it/ OR I have been getting EXCELLENT results by simply using by using the Italian White Pages: http://www.paginebianche.it/index.html and entering parrocchia in the space under "Cognome.." and the name of the town in the space under "Dove" Use this to Find out the address of the Provincial Archives in Italy: http://wwwdb.archivi.beniculturali.it/UCBAWEB/indice.html Read Barbara's Story, a wonderful Italian-American Grandmother, on how she did her very own Italian Genealogy Research simply using the Post Office and Webtv. http://community-2.webtv.net/JIBA/MEETJIBAASPECIAL/page4.html She is an Italian Genealogy Hobbyist and freely shares what she has learned. Search through this message board and read what Barbara, Angelo, John, Richard, Maria, June, Pete, MaryAnn and countless others have done to find & obtain records on their ancestors: (you don't need to post or join anything simply read through what she and others have written to others as it will help you too.) http://disc.server.com/Indices/104917.html Italian Ancestry Family Tree Genealogies - Go through the Personal Italian Family Tree Stories listed on this page. Most of the Ancestry Sites include Surnames & Pedigree Charts. Some may be researching Italian Surnames from the same places in Italy your ancestors came from, so make sure to contact them. They are all Italian Genealogy Hobbyists and freely share what they have learned from researching their own Italian Family Trees: http://italiangenealogy.tripod.com/ If you are new to Family History Research, you might enjoy visiting your local Mormon Family History Library. They have free classes and give-away-sheets on how to do research, plus a nice booklet on doing Italian Genealogy Research for only one dollar and a very handy Italian Genealogy Word List for 50 cents. Go here to find one near you. http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp The Mormons also have microfilms on most of the comuni in Italy for the Civil Records from about 1810 to 1860. Some go up to the 1900/1910s ...BUT most don't ... so if your ancestors came over in the 1900s you will have a gap and will have to write to the Town Halls in the USA and Italy to find your ancestors records anyway. Check here to see if they have films for your Italian Town: LDS Italy Locality Search. The comuni and parishes in Italy welcome your financial contributions. They don't require much. Pay them for the records directly, its less expensive than hiring professional genealogists and gives you the knowledge of how to help others with the experience you learn in doing your own Italian Family Tree Research. Best Regards, Paula Marie Nigro http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdom/index.html

The new Surnames By Town database is now up and running, presently limited to Basilicata Region, which is the provinces of Potenza and Matera at the ankle of the boot. http://SurnamesByTown.com

Hi, awhile back a LIST writer had mentioned a site STORE to go to find your family name crest. I found an ordered it a week ago and today, by an emailed attachment received it! I think with the AVERY T-Shirt Transfers it may even work to iron the family crest on a T-shirt! I also ordered the cross stitch pattern of our family crest. I don't know when a gift "to myself" has delighted me more! For those of you that cross stitch or know someone that does and MIGHT make it for you, what a family heirloom to pass down! I know what all my VIVONA relatives are getting for Christmas next year! Go to: http://www.store.yahoo.com/4crests/ I plan to take this cross stitch pattern with me to Italy in a week and work on it there for the next 6 weeks! Good luck, finding your family surnames! Sincerely, Deborah Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

ciao sono Romagnolo boun lavoro. "Tesfaye-Gardini" <cgcl08614@blueyonder.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio news:Ju0t8.1337$kv2.109508@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk... > Is there anybody who has any news on genealogy from the region > (Emilia)-Romagna in Italy? > C'e' qualcuno che ha notizie su genealogia della regione (Emilia)-Romagna? > If you do let me know. > Fatemi sapere. > > Thanks & grazie > > >

> re: >> Is it true that marriages in Italy in the 1800's and before were >> arranged? Or was that with wealthy families? > In south italy arranged marriages continued longer than in north italy, where the situation about marriages was the same of the other european countries. I point out that italy as state born in 1861 only. Before italy was diveded into a lot of small indipendent countries and there was many doubts of these populations to unification. Italy has an ancient culture tied to latin's one, but a very young national identity. This is the reason, pheraps, that italians are proud of their culture but they have not a deep patriotic feeling. For a lot of time they felt themselves as sicilians or lombards, or venetians, more than italians.

Hi, if you are loking for typical sicilian cakes go to this web-site http://shopping.supereva.it/ViaGBruno where you can buy Pignolata,Torroncini,Cannoli,ecc..

Segnalo questo sito per ricerche su famiglie italiane, argentine e provenzali (oggi francesi) http://space.virgilio.it/ulamagni/default.htm U.Lamagni