Dennis, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that "the priest was probably asked to confirm that the individual had been duly baptized so that he/she could be buried in consecrated soil". I don't have any proof of this so I might be wrong but I haven't heard of a practice of confirmation of baptism before burial. I have seen a lot of death notations and I just don't think that they were a result of such request. Sometimes deaths occurred in distant parishes, even overseas and, considering that burial usually took place just a day or two after the death, I don't think there even would be enough time to complete the paperwork. At the moment I can't find any references to required record keeping in the Catholic church in the 19th century but I think that, just like today, back then information on marriages and deaths/burials was supposed to be sent back to the parish where a person was baptized. As we see from our research, most priests did not follow this practice but I have seen death certificates attached to the back of a parish death registry book. Those certificates were sent from the parish where a person died to the parish where he/she was baptized. I think this is simply the case of such information flow and not the case of making sure a person was baptized before he/she could be buried. Ola Heska On 6 Aug 2009 at 7:02, Dennis Benarz wrote: > Hi Tom > > In Poland, you'll find that something like an asterisk or star preceding a > date signifies birth and a cross preceding a date signifies death. This > "Polish shorthand" is also apparent on many grave markers. > > Here's an image of the plaque on the mausoleum of the noble Joblonowski > Family of the Przyborow Estate in our ancestral parish cemetery. It > illustrates use of the symbols. See: > http://spuscizna.org/imagess/lg-wiz-r4-12.jpg . > > "22/II 1922" is indeed a date. In the customary European fashion, it is the > day, month, and year. In this case, It's the 22nd day of February 1922 or, > more simply, 22 February 1922. > > As the parish priest would receive requests for confirmation of various > sacramental issues on a former parishioner, he would often write down new > information that he garnered from the request.. In this particular case, the > priests was probably asked to confirm that the individual had been duly > baptized so that he/she could be buried in consecrated soil. From that > request, the priest added the notation of the date of death to the baptismal > record that he was viewing. It still happens all the time. > > It kind of makes you wonder what's noted on your "permanent record", doesn't > it? > > Cheers! > > Dennis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Malek" <tsmalek@post.harvard.edu> > To: "GALICIA" <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:00 PM > Subject: [GALICIA] Parish Register Date Entry > > > Have been transcribing some parish birth/baptismal information from a > FHL microfilm for Ruda, Mielec, Poland. The register entries are in > Latin and one of the entries has a notation made at a later date which > may have been the date of death. The subsequent notation is: > +23/II 1922 > My guess is that the II represents a month, but which one? Does II stand > for the second month (February)? Or is II a shorthand for VII > (September)? Or does it represent something else? > Has anyone else come across this? > Tom > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Ola Well, I only intended to create a likely scenario. Sure there might have been another reason, but only some communication from another parish, cleric, or church official would have resulted in the annotation. It had to be something. Come up with a better scenario and we'll examine it, too. Back in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, pastors and assistant priests were much more demanding of their parishioners than they are today. For example, little books, when signed by a confessor, proved that a parishioner had completed his/her Easter duty and thus was in "good standing" for any subsequent sacraments. That's something of a simplification but these little books existed well into the late 1930s and early 1940s in Chicago's Polish parishes. The Christian burial scenario that I proposed was one that is based in fact. The pastor of Saint James Parish here in Chicago created an uproar in our Czech community in 1876 because he refused to allow the burial of Maria Silhanek in the consecrated soil of Saint Adalbert Catholic Cemetery. Her sin: she was not "in good standing" in the parish. The uproar resulted in the founding of Bohemian National Cemetery, a nondenominational burial place. And besides, it's not hard to imagine an exchange of telegrams between the USA and Poland in 1922. Most Catholic priests have "lightened up" a lot regarding their parishioners in the last 100 years, taking to heart Pope John XXIII's admonishment that "God is love". But in Poland, you'll still find suicides buried within but near the outside fence of the parish cemeteries. It could have been any number of things but it could have been this one thing as well. Cheers! Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: <ola@hwwd.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] Parish Register Date Entry > Dennis, > > I'm not sure I agree with your statement that "the priest was probably > asked > to confirm that the individual had been duly baptized so that he/she could > be > buried in consecrated soil". > > I don't have any proof of this so I might be wrong but I haven't heard of > a > practice of confirmation of baptism before burial. I have seen a lot of > death > notations and I just don't think that they were a result of such request. > Sometimes deaths occurred in distant parishes, even overseas and, > considering that burial usually took place just a day or two after the > death, I > don't think there even would be enough time to complete the paperwork. > > At the moment I can't find any references to required record keeping in > the > Catholic church in the 19th century but I think that, just like today, > back then > information on marriages and deaths/burials was supposed to be sent back > to the parish where a person was baptized. As we see from our research, > most priests did not follow this practice but I have seen death > certificates > attached to the back of a parish death registry book. Those certificates > were sent from the parish where a person died to the parish where he/she > was baptized. > > I think this is simply the case of such information flow and not the case > of > making sure a person was baptized before he/she could be buried. > > Ola Heska > > > > > On 6 Aug 2009 at 7:02, Dennis Benarz wrote: > >> Hi Tom >> >> In Poland, you'll find that something like an asterisk or star preceding >> a >> date signifies birth and a cross preceding a date signifies death. This >> "Polish shorthand" is also apparent on many grave markers. >> >> Here's an image of the plaque on the mausoleum of the noble Joblonowski >> Family of the Przyborow Estate in our ancestral parish cemetery. It >> illustrates use of the symbols. See: >> http://spuscizna.org/imagess/lg-wiz-r4-12.jpg . >> >> "22/II 1922" is indeed a date. In the customary European fashion, it is >> the >> day, month, and year. In this case, It's the 22nd day of February 1922 >> or, >> more simply, 22 February 1922. >> >> As the parish priest would receive requests for confirmation of various >> sacramental issues on a former parishioner, he would often write down >> new >> information that he garnered from the request.. In this particular case, >> the >> priests was probably asked to confirm that the individual had been duly >> baptized so that he/she could be buried in consecrated soil. From that >> request, the priest added the notation of the date of death to the >> baptismal >> record that he was viewing. It still happens all the time. >> >> It kind of makes you wonder what's noted on your "permanent record", >> doesn't >> it? >> >> Cheers! >> >> Dennis >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom Malek" <tsmalek@post.harvard.edu> >> To: "GALICIA" <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:00 PM >> Subject: [GALICIA] Parish Register Date Entry >> >> >> Have been transcribing some parish birth/baptismal information from a >> FHL microfilm for Ruda, Mielec, Poland. The register entries are in >> Latin and one of the entries has a notation made at a later date which >> may have been the date of death. The subsequent notation is: >> +23/II 1922 >> My guess is that the II represents a month, but which one? Does II stand >> for the second month (February)? Or is II a shorthand for VII >> (September)? Or does it represent something else? >> Has anyone else come across this? >> Tom >> >> ********************************* >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at >> GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ********************************* >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at >> GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Dennis, I didn't mean to offend you by disagreeing with your scenario, I'm sorry. If the notation on the margin included a date and a place name, then I definitely agree with you that it was made after communication from another parish. I just think that it was more likely that a death certificate, not a request for baptism confirmation, was sent to the parish after the person died and was already buried. I don't know if this is a "better" scenario but I think it's more likely and that's one I came up with in my original message. If the notation included only a date, most likely the person died in the parish where they were baptized. You mentioned little books signed by confessor as a proof of "good standing" for subsequent sacraments. In Poland a person is allowed subsequent sacraments based on his/her ability to provide a baptismal certificate with notations of receiving previous sacraments. Such baptismal certificate must be less than 3 months old. That's why notifications of all sacraments are being sent to the "baptizing" parish after those sacraments are administered. Proof of baptism is not required for burial. Best regards, Ola Heska On 6 Aug 2009 at 14:47, Dennis Benarz wrote: > Hi Ola > > Well, I only intended to create a likely scenario. Sure there might have > been another reason, but only some communication from another parish, > cleric, or church official would have resulted in the annotation. It had to > be something. Come up with a better scenario and we'll examine it, too. > > Back in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, pastors and assistant priests > were much more demanding of their parishioners than they are today. For > example, little books, when signed by a confessor, proved that a parishioner > had completed his/her Easter duty and thus was in "good standing" for any > subsequent sacraments. That's something of a simplification but these little > books existed well into the late 1930s and early 1940s in Chicago's Polish > parishes. > > The Christian burial scenario that I proposed was one that is based in fact. > The pastor of Saint James Parish here in Chicago created an uproar in our > Czech community in 1876 because he refused to allow the burial of Maria > Silhanek in the consecrated soil of Saint Adalbert Catholic Cemetery. Her > sin: she was not "in good standing" in the parish. The uproar resulted in > the founding of Bohemian National Cemetery, a nondenominational burial > place. > > And besides, it's not hard to imagine an exchange of telegrams between the > USA and Poland in 1922. > > Most Catholic priests have "lightened up" a lot regarding their parishioners > in the last 100 years, taking to heart Pope John XXIII's admonishment that > "God is love". But in Poland, you'll still find suicides buried within but > near the outside fence of the parish cemeteries. > > It could have been any number of things but it could have been this one > thing as well. > > Cheers! > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <ola@hwwd.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:35 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] Parish Register Date Entry > > > > Dennis, > > > > I'm not sure I agree with your statement that "the priest was probably > > asked > > to confirm that the individual had been duly baptized so that he/she could > > be > > buried in consecrated soil". > > > > I don't have any proof of this so I might be wrong but I haven't heard of > > a > > practice of confirmation of baptism before burial. I have seen a lot of > > death > > notations and I just don't think that they were a result of such request. > > Sometimes deaths occurred in distant parishes, even overseas and, > > considering that burial usually took place just a day or two after the > > death, I > > don't think there even would be enough time to complete the paperwork. > > > > At the moment I can't find any references to required record keeping in > > the > > Catholic church in the 19th century but I think that, just like today, > > back then > > information on marriages and deaths/burials was supposed to be sent back > > to the parish where a person was baptized. As we see from our research, > > most priests did not follow this practice but I have seen death > > certificates > > attached to the back of a parish death registry book. Those certificates > > were sent from the parish where a person died to the parish where he/she > > was baptized. > > > > I think this is simply the case of such information flow and not the case > > of > > making sure a person was baptized before he/she could be buried. > > > > Ola Heska > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Aug 2009 at 7:02, Dennis Benarz wrote: > > > >> Hi Tom > >> > >> In Poland, you'll find that something like an asterisk or star preceding > >> a > >> date signifies birth and a cross preceding a date signifies death. This > >> "Polish shorthand" is also apparent on many grave markers. > >> > >> Here's an image of the plaque on the mausoleum of the noble Joblonowski > >> Family of the Przyborow Estate in our ancestral parish cemetery. It > >> illustrates use of the symbols. See: > >> http://spuscizna.org/imagess/lg-wiz-r4-12.jpg . > >> > >> "22/II 1922" is indeed a date. In the customary European fashion, it is > >> the > >> day, month, and year. In this case, It's the 22nd day of February 1922 > >> or, > >> more simply, 22 February 1922. > >> > >> As the parish priest would receive requests for confirmation of various > >> sacramental issues on a former parishioner, he would often write down > >> new > >> information that he garnered from the request.. In this particular case, > >> the > >> priests was probably asked to confirm that the individual had been duly > >> baptized so that he/she could be buried in consecrated soil. From that > >> request, the priest added the notation of the date of death to the > >> baptismal > >> record that he was viewing. It still happens all the time. > >> > >> It kind of makes you wonder what's noted on your "permanent record", > >> doesn't > >> it? > >> > >> Cheers! > >> > >> Dennis > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Tom Malek" <tsmalek@post.harvard.edu> > >> To: "GALICIA" <galicia@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:00 PM > >> Subject: [GALICIA] Parish Register Date Entry > >> > >> > >> Have been transcribing some parish birth/baptismal information from a > >> FHL microfilm for Ruda, Mielec, Poland. The register entries are in > >> Latin and one of the entries has a notation made at a later date which > >> may have been the date of death. The subsequent notation is: > >> +23/II 1922 > >> My guess is that the II represents a month, but which one? Does II stand > >> for the second month (February)? Or is II a shorthand for VII > >> (September)? Or does it represent something else? > >> Has anyone else come across this? > >> Tom > >> > >> ********************************* > >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > >> GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> ********************************* > >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > >> GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ********************************* > > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ola wrote: Hi Dennis, I didn't mean to offend you by disagreeing with your scenario, I'm sorry. Dennis responds: Hi Ola No offense was taken. One should never take offense during the course of a simple exchange of ideas with the objective being truth. Heck, I don't even take offense when my co-editor, Karen Wisniewski in Detroit, calls me a "duffus" or "an uncultured boob". I'm not sure if that means that I have thick skin or a thick skull. Have no fear, we're still friends. Ciao, bella senorina! Dennis