Hi David Again, in this matter of highlander groups locations, I am not certain. I claim no special knowledge of Polish highlanders or Lemkos. Your grandmother's family was likely Rusnacy (or "Rusniak") but today we'd simply identify them as Lemko. Halbow was a small village along the Wisloka River about 30 miles south of Jaslo. In the 19th Century, the village had 220 residents who were nearly all Greek Catholic and worshipped at Desznica. Halbow was in the territory of the Roman Catholic parish at nearby Zmigrod. The village is probably most remembered as the site of the mass grave of 1250 Jews who were executed by the Nazis there in July, 1942. For many of the villages in this highland area, events during and after World War II caused them to become unpopulated and abandoned. I am not sure of the fate of Halbow. We did a feature article on Nieznajowa a year or two ago. Nieznajowa is also located on the Wisloka River and is a few miles upstream from Halbow. Our Polish buddy and collaborator Robert Zasadni followed and photographed two sisters from Detroit as they visited the ancestral village of their grandmother. Here's the story: http://spuscizna.org/wisniewski/sadie-0.html Be forewarned, it is kind of bittersweet. I hope this is satisfactory. Cheers! Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <cdawargo@insight.rr.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Cc: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] Maciejowa > > >> OK, Dennis, so if my grandmother came from Halbow/Halbiv, to which of the >> highland groups would she have belonged? Her family was Greek Catholic. >> >> Thanks, >> David Wargo >> >> >> ---- Dennis Benarz <benarz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi Barbara >>> >>> Does the Polish word "gorale" mean anything to you? Well, it means >>> "highlander" and your ancestor was very likely one. >>> >>> In the 19th Century the village of Maciejowa had 416 Greek Catholic >>> residents who worshipped at the wooden church in Maciejowa, 99 Roman >>> Catholics who worshipped at Nawojowa, and 51 Jewish residents who >>> worshipped >>> at Nowy Sacz. Texts of that period refer to Maciejowa as a "Ruska wies" >>> or >>> "Ruthenian village". The earliest known mention of the village was made >>> in >>> 1229 AD. >>> >>> Neighboring Labowa, a little more than a mile to the east, was a bit >>> larger >>> with 783 Greek Catholic residents who worshipped at the masonry church >>> in >>> Labowa and 79 Roman Catholic residents who also worshipped at Nawojowa. >>> >>> I am not entirely sure, but I believe that this area was populated by >>> the >>> Gardloki highlander group. This group was frequently lumped together >>> with >>> the Spizacy highlander group for enumeration purposes and the total >>> population for both groups in 1851 was 20,530. Today, they would >>> probably be >>> referred to simply as being "Lemko". Here's some information on the >>> various >>> highlander groups that lived in Galicia in the 19th Century: >>> http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/highlanders.html >>> >>> Because of their relative isolation in the valleys and meadows of the >>> Tatra >>> Mountains, the various highlanders groups each developed their own >>> distinctive style of dress and often had particular peculiarities of >>> language. Hence, they could be "grouped". Nearly all of the highlanders >>> were >>> of either East Slavic or West Slavic origin, but there were a few >>> pockets of >>> non-Slavic Cossaks and Wallachians up in the hills as well, usually much >>> farther to the east.. The West Slavic highlanders tended to be Roman >>> Catholic while the East Slavic highlanders tended to be Greek Catholic. >>> >>> And all of this leads us to the rather famous Gorale's Lament or "Goralu >>> Czy >>> Ci Nie Zal": http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/ezine-3-1.html >>> >>> Is that satisfactory for today? >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Barbara K McLeroy" <bmcleroy@genevaliberty.com> >>> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:07 AM >>> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >>> >>> >>> > >>> > Dennis, >>> > I would like to say thank you for such an informative, and eloquent >>> > reply. >>> > The information you provided is useful for all of us researching our >>> > Galician roots. Would you care to offer some insight into the history >>> > of >>> > Maciejowa? Thank you for all the knowledge you share. Regards. Barb >>> > Starynchak >>> > >>> > ********************************* > >> >> >

OK, Dennis, so if my grandmother came from Halbow/Halbiv, to which of the highland groups would she have belonged? Her family was Greek Catholic. Thanks, David Wargo ---- Dennis Benarz <benarz@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi Barbara > > Does the Polish word "gorale" mean anything to you? Well, it means > "highlander" and your ancestor was very likely one. > > In the 19th Century the village of Maciejowa had 416 Greek Catholic > residents who worshipped at the wooden church in Maciejowa, 99 Roman > Catholics who worshipped at Nawojowa, and 51 Jewish residents who worshipped > at Nowy Sacz. Texts of that period refer to Maciejowa as a "Ruska wies" or > "Ruthenian village". The earliest known mention of the village was made in > 1229 AD. > > Neighboring Labowa, a little more than a mile to the east, was a bit larger > with 783 Greek Catholic residents who worshipped at the masonry church in > Labowa and 79 Roman Catholic residents who also worshipped at Nawojowa. > > I am not entirely sure, but I believe that this area was populated by the > Gardloki highlander group. This group was frequently lumped together with > the Spizacy highlander group for enumeration purposes and the total > population for both groups in 1851 was 20,530. Today, they would probably be > referred to simply as being "Lemko". Here's some information on the various > highlander groups that lived in Galicia in the 19th Century: > http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/highlanders.html > > Because of their relative isolation in the valleys and meadows of the Tatra > Mountains, the various highlanders groups each developed their own > distinctive style of dress and often had particular peculiarities of > language. Hence, they could be "grouped". Nearly all of the highlanders were > of either East Slavic or West Slavic origin, but there were a few pockets of > non-Slavic Cossaks and Wallachians up in the hills as well, usually much > farther to the east.. The West Slavic highlanders tended to be Roman > Catholic while the East Slavic highlanders tended to be Greek Catholic. > > And all of this leads us to the rather famous Gorale's Lament or "Goralu Czy > Ci Nie Zal": http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/ezine-3-1.html > > Is that satisfactory for today? > > Cheers! > > Dennis > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara K McLeroy" <bmcleroy@genevaliberty.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > > > > > Dennis, > > I would like to say thank you for such an informative, and eloquent reply. > > The information you provided is useful for all of us researching our > > Galician roots. Would you care to offer some insight into the history of > > Maciejowa? Thank you for all the knowledge you share. Regards. Barb > > Starynchak > > > > ********************************* > > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anyone recommend a genealogist who specialises in Kiev archives - a genealogist who is good and trustworthy I am now determined to find traces of my maternal grandfather who was born there and his family which remained there after 1917 Have names of my greatgrandparents and my grandfathers details - and a bit of loose details passed on to me by my grandmother And that is it Lucyna

Hi Barbara Does the Polish word "gorale" mean anything to you? Well, it means "highlander" and your ancestor was very likely one. In the 19th Century the village of Maciejowa had 416 Greek Catholic residents who worshipped at the wooden church in Maciejowa, 99 Roman Catholics who worshipped at Nawojowa, and 51 Jewish residents who worshipped at Nowy Sacz. Texts of that period refer to Maciejowa as a "Ruska wies" or "Ruthenian village". The earliest known mention of the village was made in 1229 AD. Neighboring Labowa, a little more than a mile to the east, was a bit larger with 783 Greek Catholic residents who worshipped at the masonry church in Labowa and 79 Roman Catholic residents who also worshipped at Nawojowa. I am not entirely sure, but I believe that this area was populated by the Gardloki highlander group. This group was frequently lumped together with the Spizacy highlander group for enumeration purposes and the total population for both groups in 1851 was 20,530. Today, they would probably be referred to simply as being "Lemko". Here's some information on the various highlander groups that lived in Galicia in the 19th Century: http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/highlanders.html Because of their relative isolation in the valleys and meadows of the Tatra Mountains, the various highlanders groups each developed their own distinctive style of dress and often had particular peculiarities of language. Hence, they could be "grouped". Nearly all of the highlanders were of either East Slavic or West Slavic origin, but there were a few pockets of non-Slavic Cossaks and Wallachians up in the hills as well, usually much farther to the east.. The West Slavic highlanders tended to be Roman Catholic while the East Slavic highlanders tended to be Greek Catholic. And all of this leads us to the rather famous Gorale's Lament or "Goralu Czy Ci Nie Zal": http://spuscizna.org/spuscizna/ezine-3-1.html Is that satisfactory for today? Cheers! Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara K McLeroy" <bmcleroy@genevaliberty.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > Dennis, > I would like to say thank you for such an informative, and eloquent reply. > The information you provided is useful for all of us researching our > Galician roots. Would you care to offer some insight into the history of > Maciejowa? Thank you for all the knowledge you share. Regards. Barb > Starynchak > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dennis, I would like to say thank you for such an informative, and eloquent reply. The information you provided is useful for all of us researching our Galician roots. Would you care to offer some insight into the history of Maciejowa? Thank you for all the knowledge you share. Regards. Barb Starynchak

Really! Great! Ok here is what I have so far. My grandmothers maiden name was Helen Wrobel. I found a ship manifest that lists her as Hella Wrobel. Another document lists her as Helena Wrobel. She came to the US according to family stories in 1906. Also on a census it lists her as coming in 1906. The story is she came to the US in 1906 with her mother Mary, Maria,or Maryanna- Wrobel. Then returned to Poland to bring back her younger sister Fannie-I believe is Stephania born in 1903. I found as stated above a ship manifest on March 10,1907 from Bremen to New York. Next to her name is stamped return. next to her sister is stamped admitted. (another person has deported stamped next to their name) This indicates to me that she was here and this was a return trip to the US validating census info on arrival date and family oral tradition. Home is listed as Novy Lacz. But it is hard to read it may say NovySacz. Her application for Social Security lists home as Novy Sonch. I understand Novy Sacz,Novy Sonch has about 40 variant spellings. I would like to find Anton Wrobel's initial arrival in the us prior to 1/25/1901. I would like to find Mary Wrobel and Helen Wrobel arriving in 1906 I would like to find Victoria Lesaks initial arrival in US I would like to find Charles (Carl) Richard Wurzburg of Germany arrival in US I would like to find Elizabeth Lesak's arrival in US I would like to find her husband Sanislaw Nowak's arrival in US I would like to find Felix Lesaks arrival in US I would like to find Kazimierz(Casimir) Lesak's arrival in US (and wife Josephine) I would like to find Jan Lesak and wife Salameja arrival in US. Any information more on the Lesak and Wrobel family would be appreciated. 1/25/1901-I have found Maria (Lesak) Wrobel coming to the US ,NY,on SS LAHN, to visit Husband Anton Wrobel in Waterbury Conneticut. She has Jan andStanislava(may be Stella born 1900) with her. Lists Stanislava as 8 months. from Dorozce 1904/5- Casimir Lesak and wife Josephine come o US March 1906- oral tradition- Helen Wrobel comes to US with Mother Mary 1906 - Census of 1920 indicates initial immigration of Helen Wrobel in 1906, Citizenship papers indicate March 1906 as well. March 10,1907- Helen and Stanislava come to NY on SS Brandenburg from Bremen 7/13/1908 I find Charles Richard Wurzburg and Wife Victoria (Lesak) Wurzburg coming to the US with Stella on Graf Waldersee from Cuxhaven to NY 7/13/1908 I find Johann Wrobel coming to US on Graf Waldersee to NY to visit Uncle Richard Wurzburg. last in US 1902 Waterbury Connecticut visiting Father Anton Wrobel Johann was listed as Jan in 1901 May 20, 1909 -Maria Wrobel and Stephania from Bremen to Galveston on SS Koln from Kaduk Galicy. previous in US 1901/1908 1/11/1910 - Antoni Wrobel arrives from Bremen Germany to Galveston on Chemnitz from Dabrowka Galicy wih Weronika and Joseph May 3 1911- Franciszek and Michal arrive Galveston they are from Dabrowka Here is the family tree as I know it. Franciszek Lesak- Maria Domanski -Children -Maria, Victoria,Elizabeth,Felix,Franciszek,Kazimier,Jan,Karol Franciszek and Maria remained in Poland US MARIA LESAK ANTON WROBEL \ Helena Weronika(Winnie) Stanislava(Stella) Michal Franciszek John Jozeph Maria- Remained in Nysa , Husband; ____Kisza, 5/6 sons Jan,Jozef,Adam,Jerzy,Szezepan US Victoria Lesak Charles Richard Wurzburg US Elizabeth Lesak Stanislaw Nowak US Felix Lesak US Kazimir (Casimir)Lesak Josephine_____ US Jan Lesak Salameja_____ Poland-Krakow Karol Lesak Regina Szczep \Childern Karoline Lesak Husband Wincenty Mitka- 2 sons died WWII Marian Lesak Wife Weronika Garnalzi- son Janusz died in Childhood, Daughter Eva Lesak married Kazimierz Glowacki Poland-Novy Sacz Franciszek Lesak Maria ___(Krol?) / daughter Janina Lesak (Krol) Janina Lesak (Krol)/Tadeusz Zaranek- /Children Maria, Tadeusz, Karol, Edmund, Irena, Marta, Stamistawa - son Jozef Keller Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Hi Jeff > > My offer still stands. Give us the place name of your grandmother's > village > and I'll research it for you. > > Dennis

Lucyna, My partner in Ukraine does research. Contact me Lkrupnak@erols.com _______ Lavrentiy Krupniak Lucyna Artymiuk wrote: > > > > > > > > Can anyone recommend a genealogist who specialises in Kiev archives - a > genealogist who is good and trustworthy > > > > I am now determined to find traces of my maternal grandfather who was born > there and his family which remained there after 1917 > > > > Have names of my greatgrandparents and my grandfathers details - and a bit > of loose details passed on to me by my grandmother > > > > And that is it > > > > > > Lucyna > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jeff My offer still stands. Give us the place name of your grandmother's village and I'll research it for you. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Thanks. I do understand and am having enough trouble learning about my > polish roots. My point is that what ever I find is that much more for me > to > be proud of. > I know I have German, Scot/Irish and Polish heritage. My grandmother told > me > there was also some chek as well. If I find Jewish or anything I will > just > have that much more learning to do and be greatful. > Thanks > Jeff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:23 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> In this matter, you can only speak for yourself. And only thorough >> research >> will reveal just how "mixed up" you are. >> >> Please keep in mind that the average resident of the Kingdom of Poland >> and >> the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did not move around a lot. That is >> pretty >> true of most farmers everywhere in the 11th through 18th Centuries. >> >> With regards to the Poles of SE Poland (descendants of the West Slavic >> Wislanie tribe aka Vistulans) there is surprising homogeneity in their >> overall genetic make-up. Sure, you can find a smattering of Moravian >> here, >> some German there, and a dash of Hungarian added to the soup but not >> enough >> to call folks there ethnically "mixed". >> >> There are really only two ways to determine the likelihood of ethnic >> mixing >> in a particular family or geographic area. One is a careful study, going >> back a score of generations, of the genealogies of the persons involved >> with >> particular attention to the etymology of given names, surnames, and place >> names together with a thorough understanding of the local history of the >> geographic location. The other would be to undertake non-invasive genetic >> samplings of all the possible ethnic groups suspected to have been >> involved >> in any way with a particular locale. The results of either method are >> likely to produce only probabilities and not conclusive evidence. >> >> My research of my ancestral parish along the Wisloka River near Debica >> reveals evidence of some Germanic, Hungarian, and Roma mixing having >> occurred some centuries ago. It is apparent by merely looking at the >> names >> of the parishioners from an etymological viewpoint - you'll find the >> presence of folks named "Niemiec" (meaning "German") and Cygan (meaning >> "Roma") and "Ferenc" (meaning "Francis" in Hungarian) and others. From a >> historical viewpoint, you'll discover that our locale was raided by >> Moravians around 925 AD and by Hungarians around 1474 AD and by Swedes >> around 1655 AD. This might have provided an opportunity for ethnic >> "mixing". >> You'll find that King Casimir the Great invited immigrants from many >> lands >> to settle and pioneer our area in 1350 AD and many Saxons arrived shortly >> thereafter and eventually became part of our ethnic mix . And you'll find >> that in 1241 AD six Mongols were captured and forced to do farm work in >> our >> parish and they too might have added to our genetic soup. But the results >> of >> those mixings are hardly enough to call us, the descendants of the >> parish, >> anything but Poles. >> >> The point that I am trying to make is quite simple: Do your homework >> first, >> dream romantic fantasies later. Start with the village of your Polish >> grandmother and become the expert on that one place. What's the name of >> her >> village? I'll lend you a hand. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Dennis Benarz >> http://spuscizna.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:32 PM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>>I do understand but also recognize that those countries peoples are so >>>mixed >>> up over the generations. we poles from the se area of galicia may have >>> chek, >>> ukraine or God knows what nationalities. I just know the more I learn >>> and >>> the more mixed up I am nationality wise the more I have to be proud of >>> and >>> more research over traditions, foods, drink way of life etc etc etc... I >>> am >>> happy about it >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> >>> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM >>> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >>> >>>

Thanks. I do understand and am having enough trouble learning about my polish roots. My point is that what ever I find is that much more for me to be proud of. I know I have German, Scot/Irish and Polish heritage. My grandmother told me there was also some chek as well. If I find Jewish or anything I will just have that much more learning to do and be greatful. Thanks Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > In this matter, you can only speak for yourself. And only thorough > research > will reveal just how "mixed up" you are. > > Please keep in mind that the average resident of the Kingdom of Poland and > the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did not move around a lot. That is > pretty > true of most farmers everywhere in the 11th through 18th Centuries. > > With regards to the Poles of SE Poland (descendants of the West Slavic > Wislanie tribe aka Vistulans) there is surprising homogeneity in their > overall genetic make-up. Sure, you can find a smattering of Moravian here, > some German there, and a dash of Hungarian added to the soup but not > enough > to call folks there ethnically "mixed". > > There are really only two ways to determine the likelihood of ethnic > mixing > in a particular family or geographic area. One is a careful study, going > back a score of generations, of the genealogies of the persons involved > with > particular attention to the etymology of given names, surnames, and place > names together with a thorough understanding of the local history of the > geographic location. The other would be to undertake non-invasive genetic > samplings of all the possible ethnic groups suspected to have been > involved > in any way with a particular locale. The results of either method are > likely to produce only probabilities and not conclusive evidence. > > My research of my ancestral parish along the Wisloka River near Debica > reveals evidence of some Germanic, Hungarian, and Roma mixing having > occurred some centuries ago. It is apparent by merely looking at the names > of the parishioners from an etymological viewpoint - you'll find the > presence of folks named "Niemiec" (meaning "German") and Cygan (meaning > "Roma") and "Ferenc" (meaning "Francis" in Hungarian) and others. From a > historical viewpoint, you'll discover that our locale was raided by > Moravians around 925 AD and by Hungarians around 1474 AD and by Swedes > around 1655 AD. This might have provided an opportunity for ethnic > "mixing". > You'll find that King Casimir the Great invited immigrants from many lands > to settle and pioneer our area in 1350 AD and many Saxons arrived shortly > thereafter and eventually became part of our ethnic mix . And you'll find > that in 1241 AD six Mongols were captured and forced to do farm work in > our > parish and they too might have added to our genetic soup. But the results > of > those mixings are hardly enough to call us, the descendants of the parish, > anything but Poles. > > The point that I am trying to make is quite simple: Do your homework > first, > dream romantic fantasies later. Start with the village of your Polish > grandmother and become the expert on that one place. What's the name of > her > village? I'll lend you a hand. > > Cheers! > > Dennis Benarz > http://spuscizna.org/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >>I do understand but also recognize that those countries peoples are so >>mixed >> up over the generations. we poles from the se area of galicia may have >> chek, >> ukraine or God knows what nationalities. I just know the more I learn and >> the more mixed up I am nationality wise the more I have to be proud of >> and >> more research over traditions, foods, drink way of life etc etc etc... I >> am >> happy about it >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>> Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't >>> help >>> anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at >>> Ellis >>> Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity >>> ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we >>> give >>> thanks.) >>> >>> You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a >>> reason >>> for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a >>> monarchic >>> union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, >>> they >>> each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia >>> was >>> Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. >>> >>> If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait >>> until >>> you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian >>> Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are >>> "united". >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Dennis Benarz >>> http://spuscizna.org/ >>> >>> > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In this matter, you can only speak for yourself. And only thorough research will reveal just how "mixed up" you are. Please keep in mind that the average resident of the Kingdom of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did not move around a lot. That is pretty true of most farmers everywhere in the 11th through 18th Centuries. With regards to the Poles of SE Poland (descendants of the West Slavic Wislanie tribe aka Vistulans) there is surprising homogeneity in their overall genetic make-up. Sure, you can find a smattering of Moravian here, some German there, and a dash of Hungarian added to the soup but not enough to call folks there ethnically "mixed". There are really only two ways to determine the likelihood of ethnic mixing in a particular family or geographic area. One is a careful study, going back a score of generations, of the genealogies of the persons involved with particular attention to the etymology of given names, surnames, and place names together with a thorough understanding of the local history of the geographic location. The other would be to undertake non-invasive genetic samplings of all the possible ethnic groups suspected to have been involved in any way with a particular locale. The results of either method are likely to produce only probabilities and not conclusive evidence. My research of my ancestral parish along the Wisloka River near Debica reveals evidence of some Germanic, Hungarian, and Roma mixing having occurred some centuries ago. It is apparent by merely looking at the names of the parishioners from an etymological viewpoint - you'll find the presence of folks named "Niemiec" (meaning "German") and Cygan (meaning "Roma") and "Ferenc" (meaning "Francis" in Hungarian) and others. From a historical viewpoint, you'll discover that our locale was raided by Moravians around 925 AD and by Hungarians around 1474 AD and by Swedes around 1655 AD. This might have provided an opportunity for ethnic "mixing". You'll find that King Casimir the Great invited immigrants from many lands to settle and pioneer our area in 1350 AD and many Saxons arrived shortly thereafter and eventually became part of our ethnic mix . And you'll find that in 1241 AD six Mongols were captured and forced to do farm work in our parish and they too might have added to our genetic soup. But the results of those mixings are hardly enough to call us, the descendants of the parish, anything but Poles. The point that I am trying to make is quite simple: Do your homework first, dream romantic fantasies later. Start with the village of your Polish grandmother and become the expert on that one place. What's the name of her village? I'll lend you a hand. Cheers! Dennis Benarz http://spuscizna.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >I do understand but also recognize that those countries peoples are so >mixed > up over the generations. we poles from the se area of galicia may have > chek, > ukraine or God knows what nationalities. I just know the more I learn and > the more mixed up I am nationality wise the more I have to be proud of and > more research over traditions, foods, drink way of life etc etc etc... I > am > happy about it > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't >> help >> anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at >> Ellis >> Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity >> ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give >> thanks.) >> >> You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason >> for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a >> monarchic >> union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, >> they >> each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was >> Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. >> >> If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait >> until >> you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian >> Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are >> "united". >> >> Cheers! >> >> Dennis Benarz >> http://spuscizna.org/ >> >>

I do understand but also recognize that those countries peoples are so mixed up over the generations. we poles from the se area of galicia may have chek, ukraine or God knows what nationalities. I just know the more I learn and the more mixed up I am nationality wise the more I have to be proud of and more research over traditions, foods, drink way of life etc etc etc... I am happy about it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't > help > anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at > Ellis > Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity > ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give > thanks.) > > You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason > for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a > monarchic > union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, > they > each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was > Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. > > If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait > until > you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian > Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are > "united". > > Cheers! > > Dennis Benarz > http://spuscizna.org/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the >> Hapsburg >> empire. >> Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member >> of >> the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of >> Austria Hungary. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>> Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. >>> Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> Laurence Krupnak wrote: >>>> >>>> Louis, >>>> >>>> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. >>>> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >>>> >>>> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >>>> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >>>> >>>> _______ >>>> >>>> Lavrentiy Krupniak >>>> > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In 1920, Anthony Chrzanowski, undertaker, lived at 893 Russell St., Detroit. He was 37 yrs old, b. MI, parents b. Germany, native tongue Polish. Wife, Mary, 33, b. MI, parents b. Germany, native tongue Polish. Children b. MI: daughter Rose, 11; daughter Irene, 7; son John, 11 mos. Mary Tom Malek wrote: > Looking for information about A. Chrzanowski, Undertaker in Hamtramck, > MI circa 1919-1920. > >

Try the Wayne County, Michigan, mailing list: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/usa/MI/wayne.html#MIWAYNE Mary Tom Malek wrote: > Looking for information about A. Chrzanowski, Undertaker in Hamtramck, > MI circa 1919-1920. > >

Looking for information about A. Chrzanowski, Undertaker in Hamtramck, MI circa 1919-1920.

Hi Jeff It's America, Jeff. You can be anything you want to be here. Just be careful not to let whimsy or wishes cloud your research. As for me, my paternal family line for at least the last 1100 years has resided in Maloposka, i.e. "Minoris Poloniae" in Latin. During this time period various states have claimed sovereignty over the place: Great Moravia (before 950 AD), the Duchy of Krakow, the Kingdom of Poland, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Kingdom of Austria and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Polish Rebublic, the German Third Reich (1939-1945), the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1945-1989 under the name Polish People's Republic), and the current Polish Republic. Looking at things the way you do, you have a much greater variety of things to choose to be - like Moravian, Lithuanian, German, and/or Russian. As for me, I am what I am and what my forbearers were: Polish. And my pre-Polish, proto-Slavic roots are firmly planted in the West Slavic Wislanie tribe which, over a thousand years ago, amalgamated with several other West Slavic tribes to form the Polish nation In the grand scheme of things, the 51-year life of the Austro-Hungarian Empire is merely two blinks of an eye.. Just my opinion. To each his own. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > all of us of ancestors of galicia region of what is today poland.. ie > Poland > did not exist when my grandmother was living there. She was a citizen of > austria hungary. > I can calaim austriahungary along with my german irish scott- and yes > polish > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't >> help >> anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at >> Ellis >> Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity >> ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give >> thanks.) >> >> You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason >> for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a >> monarchic >> union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, >> they >> each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was >> Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. >> >> If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait >> until >> you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian >> Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are >> "united". >> >> Cheers! >> >> Dennis Benarz >> http://spuscizna.org/ >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>> Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the >>> Hapsburg >>> empire. >>> Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member >>> of >>> the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of >>> Austria Hungary. >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> >>> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >>> >>> >>>> Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. >>>> Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. >>>> >>>> Mary >>>> >>>> Laurence Krupnak wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Louis, >>>>> >>>>> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian >>>>> Ukraine. >>>>> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >>>>> >>>>> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >>>>> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >>>>> >>>>> _______ >>>>> >>>>> Lavrentiy Krupniak >>>>> >> >> >> ********************************* >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at >> GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

oh forgot and have claimed austrohungarian as well as my Polish roots due to this political situation under the Hapsburgs just one more thing for me to be proud of... and if I find jewish roots that too just more to be proud of. Jeff just a different view of the same thing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't > help > anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at > Ellis > Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity > ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give > thanks.) > > You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason > for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a > monarchic > union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, > they > each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was > Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. > > If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait > until > you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian > Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are > "united". > > Cheers! > > Dennis Benarz > http://spuscizna.org/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the >> Hapsburg >> empire. >> Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member >> of >> the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of >> Austria Hungary. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>> Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. >>> Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> Laurence Krupnak wrote: >>>> >>>> Louis, >>>> >>>> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. >>>> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >>>> >>>> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >>>> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >>>> >>>> _______ >>>> >>>> Lavrentiy Krupniak >>>> > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

all of us of ancestors of galicia region of what is today poland.. ie Poland did not exist when my grandmother was living there. She was a citizen of austria hungary. I can calaim austriahungary along with my german irish scott- and yes polish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Benarz" <benarz@hotmail.com> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't > help > anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at > Ellis > Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity > ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give > thanks.) > > You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason > for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a > monarchic > union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, > they > each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was > Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. > > If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait > until > you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian > Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are > "united". > > Cheers! > > Dennis Benarz > http://spuscizna.org/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 PM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the >> Hapsburg >> empire. >> Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member >> of >> the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of >> Austria Hungary. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> >> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME >> >> >>> Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. >>> Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. >>> >>> Mary >>> >>> Laurence Krupnak wrote: >>>> >>>> Louis, >>>> >>>> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. >>>> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >>>> >>>> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >>>> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >>>> >>>> _______ >>>> >>>> Lavrentiy Krupniak >>>> > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it. But, alas, it doesn't help anyone trying to decipher the nationalities given on the manifests at Ellis Island and the term "Austrian-Hungarian" as a nationality nor ethnicity ("race or people") never appears on the manifests. (And for this, we give thanks.) You will notice that "Austria-Hungary" is hyphenated and there's a reason for that. The two separate political entities became joined as a monarchic union in 1867 under the rule of the Hapsburgs. But, as dual monarchies, they each retained their own separate governments and territories. Galicia was Austrian. Slovakia was Hungarian. And Laurence was right. If this "monarchic union" concept is new or foreign to you, just wait until you begin researching the Union of Krewo or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In such unions, you will find that only some things are "united". Cheers! Dennis Benarz http://spuscizna.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Almrauscher" <almrauscher1@comcast.net> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the > Hapsburg > empire. > Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member > of > the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of > Austria Hungary. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > >> Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. >> Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. >> >> Mary >> >> Laurence Krupnak wrote: >>> >>> Louis, >>> >>> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. >>> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >>> >>> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >>> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >>> >>> _______ >>> >>> Lavrentiy Krupniak >>>

Hello, I made no error. Prior to 1867, Hungary was part of the Austrian Empire. After 1867, the Austrian Empire became the Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary (aka the Austro-Hungarian Empire). Galicia was a province of Austria, before 1867 and after 1867. _________ Lavrentiy Krupniak Almrauscher wrote: > > Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the Hapsburg > empire. > Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member of > the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of > Austria Hungary. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> > To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > > > Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. > > Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. > > > > Mary > > > > Laurence Krupnak wrote: > >> > >> Louis, > >> > >> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. > >> Galicia was never part of Hungary. > >> > >> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to > >> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> Lavrentiy Krupniak > >> > >> > >> > >> LOUIS MICHAEL BARSI wrote: > >> > >>> Dennis, > >>> > >>> Thank you for your excellent suggestions. I have always wondered about > >>> those > >>> REMAX advertisements. John and his wife Elizabeth were married in > >>> Hungary > >>> before they left for America. I will check on the marriage information > >>> although it will be a bit difficult since it is not until child number > >>> four > >>> that there was a marriage. I appreciate you help very much. > >>> > >> > > ********************************* > > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Laurence you are in error. Galicia was part of Austria-Hungary the Hapsburg empire. Arch Duke France Ferdinand was assassinated in Boznia... He was a member of the Hapsburg family the rulers of Austria Hungary. Galicia was part of Austria Hungary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Snow" <marysnow@bellsouth.net> To: <galicia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [GALICIA] REMAK SURNAME > Hometown for Remaks entering through Ellis Island was Zeteny, Hungary. > Microfilm available from LDS. Links to message boards sent to Lou. > > Mary > > Laurence Krupnak wrote: >> >> Louis, >> >> Your ancestors are from either Slovakia or Transcarpathian Ukraine. >> Galicia was never part of Hungary. >> >> Several people in the past, e.g. Mary Snow, have directed you to >> explore Slovakia, etc., and you have not followed the suggestions. >> >> _______ >> >> Lavrentiy Krupniak >> >> >> >> LOUIS MICHAEL BARSI wrote: >> >>> Dennis, >>> >>> Thank you for your excellent suggestions. I have always wondered about >>> those >>> REMAX advertisements. John and his wife Elizabeth were married in >>> Hungary >>> before they left for America. I will check on the marriage information >>> although it will be a bit difficult since it is not until child number >>> four >>> that there was a marriage. I appreciate you help very much. >>> >> > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > GALICIA-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GALICIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message