Does that include Federal Census Records? If so then people should not be using the LDS to obtain film but should be told about this and that way not be violating rules of the LDS....if these are public records such as census and such why do we then get into trouble because we choose to go to the LDS versus a local library or to order direct from the nat archives...I have always loved working with the folks at the LDS libraries and just would go there to do film reading and abstracting records...when any of the public records were mentioned in a report to a client or such the the Church was always given complete credit for copying the materials and such...as directed in the "how to cite sources" that the Nat. Genea. Soc...suggested to be used...and if I posted something in a book or online I also cited sources...I never realized that they forbid us to use such as the census records...only books and materials which were actually copyrighted by an author/compiler or such...but if I am wrong in telling others please correct me...and I will not ever again suggest anyone use the LDS church for transcriptions/abstractions but suggest they order the film from another source. Thank You, God Bless, Gloria ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Kathryn Kozy" <mkozy@attglobal.net> To: <GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [GAGEN] Re: Commercial use of the County sites... > Gloria - > > I'll just throw this out once again for those who may have joined the > project after the last time I posted.... > > Data contained in LDS microfilms is done through a copyright agreement with > the LDS Church's Family History Dept. and the entity that holds the > originals. These are NOT considered in the "public domain" as such. In > order to extract, abstract, index, etc. any of these records (even if they > are just court records from your county, marriages, wills, etc.), you must > first get permission from the LDS Family History Dept.'s Copyright Office. > They are generally more than willing to give it, but it is a necessary step > to help prevent the FHL from legal problems should a particular entity not > give permission for further indexing or some such thing that we as patrons > reading the film (for personal research reasons) are not aware of. The LAST > thing any of would want to do is jeopardize the FHL's reputation or > standing amongst those whose good graces we all stand in need of (i.e., > county court houses and other repositories/donors of these original > records) or put them in any legal trouble. > > Here is the information I received from Kathy Warburton of the Family > History Dept.'s Copyright Office several months back: > > <start> > Before I respond to your request, I must make you aware of some policies of > the Family and Church History Department concerning appropriate uses of > materials in our collection. Due to the increasing publication of these > materials on the Internet, we are having to become more strict in enforcing > these policies to keep the department from being in violation of our > contractual agreements with the donors of the records in our collection. > > Records held in the collection of the Family History Library and Family > History Centers are intended for non-commercial personal family history > research only. Use of the records beyond the scope of non-commercial > personal family history research may violate contractual agreements with > the records custodians and/or copyright laws. > > In order to be sure that we are in compliance with contractual obligations > and copyright laws, the following uses of the records in our collection are > not permitted: > > 1. Creating indexes or extracts of multiple entries or of entire record sets, > 2. Copying or reproduction of multiple pages (beyond the limits of "fair > use.") > > For certain materials for which the Genealogical Society of Utah or the > Family History Department possesses unrestricted rights of use and > publication, an officer of the Society may approve indexing projects in > exchange for unrestricted rights to use and publish the resulting indexes. > To obtain such approval, please provide full details in writing, including > your name and address, the author and title of the materials to be indexes > along with all film numbers proposed to be indexed and a full description > lf the purpose of the index and any proposed publication (including > publication to the Internet) to: > > President, The Genealogical Society of Utah > 50 East North Temple Street, 5th Floor > Salt Lake City UT 84150 > > Please keep this policy in mind before beginning any indexing or extraction > projects involving microfilms from our collection or before posting such > projects that you may have already completed. A notice of this policy has > been sent to all family history centers and should now be posted in the > centers. We would appreciate your cooperation in ensuring that the > Department is able to comply with its contractual agreements with the > donors of these materials. > > I wish you every success in your family history efforts. If you have any > questions, please contact me. > > Sincerely, > Kathy Warburton > Copyright Coordinator > Family and Church History Department > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints > Phone: 801-240-2049 > Fax: 801-240-2494 > Email: fhd-copyright@ldschurch.org > <end> > > I hope this clears up any misconceptions or confusion any of ya'll have > about their policies. If not, feel free to contact Ms. Warburton! > > Thanks, > > Mary Kathryn Kozy > mkozy@attglobal.net > Mitchell Co., GAGenWeb CC > > At 07:52 PM 5/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >If each CC ordered one film per month...about $3.60....from a local LDS > >Church/FHL and transcribed the indexes for Wills, Marriages, Warranty Deeds, > >Warrantor and Warrantee indexes they would in a years time have a multitude > >of material on their site that would allow the visitors to our pages find > >their ancestors name and then the person could order a copy of that deed, > >will, marriage record. No professional would be needed to search those > >records (and I worked as a professional genealogist for some years). No > >search fee would be charged for looking up records by clerks..as the index > >would give each researcher what they needed to order a copy of those > >records. There is no need to abstract or transcribe the records. If just > >the indexes were done that would be a wonderful gift to the genealogy > >community. Now why haven't I done that? Well when I first adopted GA > >counties I was also preparing and researching to write a book which grew > >into what could now be two books about the Lumbee Indian Tribe and all of > >the families. For over ten years I ordered "all" of the microfilmed public > >records for Robeson County, NC and also records from Bladen, Sampson, > >Lenoir, Guilford, Cumberland, and many other NC Counties, and then went up > >into VA and ordered VA filmed records and then made several trips to the > >areas to search in the courthouses and the State Archives to find more that > >might have missed being filmed. So that took a primary until about eight > >months ago when I felt I had gone as far with the research as I would go in > >my lifetime. Will leave more for others to pick up where I left off. But > >now I have started working on the GA Counties that I host...With Ben Hill > >the records have not been filmed as of yet...but I will make a trip up there > >within this year to copy those indexes...Luckily Irwin County records have > >been microfilmed and are available..and a cousin has already done a lot of > >those transcriptions which he will be providing and what he doesn't provide > >I will do.. The Ben Hill County Newspapers have all been microfilmed and I > >plan soon to order my first of many films and those I will purchase at about > >$24- $28.00 per film..forget correct amount...and I do have a film reader > >and a fiche reader at home...my files are full of copies of original > >documents from VA and NC records but very few of GA records and that is > >because when I began hosting the GA Counties I was in the middle of another > >labor of love which is now completed and my time and attention will be on > >the GA sites..but any of us can take the time to place the indexes online > >and then no one will need to have a professional go into those records. What > >I propose we do will take years to accomplish and there is an occasional > >need for a professional and they get in touch with us or a person will > >contact us and request the name of a professional in which ever case I will > >be happy to provide that person with the name of someone who can help but as > >for the County Pages I believe with all my heart that they are not for > >commercial use...a special page with commercial options in research...that > >is fine...but allow the viewer the option of going there is that is what > >they want and not misrepresenting links and such by just sending them there. > >As someone who did make money at one time from professional genealogy I > >never took a GA commission...but only in NC, PA, and SC and WV....just my > >principals and what I feel was the right thing to do...with GA research I > >did it for free in all cases....a lot of our visitors are elderly folks with > >limited incomes or disabled people and those who have pcs but can't afford > >the extras, and all are unable to travel... those are the ones who benefit > >the most from our project..Can we be proud of our selves if we send them to > >a commercial site thinking they are going to find real records that are free > >of charge only to find they have arrived at a paying site that they don't > >have the money to subscribe to...sorry I can't do that...But that is just my > >opinion....but free is what the project is all about and free is how it > >should remain...Gloria..... > > > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > >USGenWeb's motto is - Volunteers dedicated to free, online information. > > > > ==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > Do you have a suggestion to include in our taglines? If so, please write > GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com > >

Gloria - I don't believe it applies to things like the census (which after all, are available from NARA, online, etc.), as the LDS films aren't your only source. Potentially, you could get that data from a number of sources, and I believe that once NARA releases that information it is generally considered in the public domain (hence the 72-year release restriction). You are able to use the LDS microfilms for personal research purposes and even for clients (you, after all, are doing their personal research for them). Using the FHL's census or other records in the pursuit of data concerning your own or a client's records (and citing them as such) is not what I'm talking about here. What I'm talking about ordering a film and indexing whole sets of records and publishing them on our GenWeb sites. For the most part, I don't think the Family History Dept. has a problem with this. They simply ask that you check with them to verify that they don't have any agreements with the donor of the data (which are unknown to you as the user of the microfilm) that might restrict your ability to do this (or their ability to allow it under these legal agreements). Think about it... The LDS Church has gotten permission to film whole sets of records from different churches, individuals, public entities, etc. These are each individual agreements, and if nothing else, it is a courtesy that we make sure we aren't violating any of those agreements they have with the donors of the records. It was something I was not made aware of until very recently, and I doubt it was much of an issue up til now with the advent of the Internet and genealogy online. One example that might make this a little clearer is that I am currently researching my husband's lines in some Polish Catholic Church records which actually contain marriage indexes up until 1945! Some of these individuals are still living, and I doubt that should I decide at some point to index them for WorldGenWeb that they would like having their personal information indexed and plastered all over the internet. Just a guess.... It could also cause friction between the FHD and the Catholic Church should something of this nature happen, which would surely affect their ability to microfilm such record sets in the future. Again, it might not even BE a problem, but the smart thing to do would be to write to the FHD Copyright Office and check (I did this via email and had no problem...). I hope this makes sense. Please don't think the LDS Church's Family History Dept. is being miserly here. For goodness sake, they spend their member's donated money for projects like these to help all of us! Mary Kathryn Kozy Mitchell Co., GAGenWeb CC At 03:39 PM 5/22/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Does that include Federal Census Records? If so then people should not be >using the LDS to obtain film but should be told about this and that way not >be violating rules of the LDS....if these are public records such as census >and such why do we then get into trouble because we choose to go to the LDS >versus a local library or to order direct from the nat archives...I have >always loved working with the folks at the LDS libraries and just would go >there to do film reading and abstracting records...when any of the public >records were mentioned in a report to a client or such the the Church was >always given complete credit for copying the materials and such...as >directed in the "how to cite sources" that the Nat. Genea. Soc...suggested >to be used...and if I posted something in a book or online I also cited >sources...I never realized that they forbid us to use such as the census >records...only books and materials which were actually copyrighted by an >author/compiler or such...but if I am wrong in telling others please correct >me...and I will not ever again suggest anyone use the LDS church for >transcriptions/abstractions but suggest they order the film from another >source. Thank You, God Bless, Gloria >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mary Kathryn Kozy" <mkozy@attglobal.net> >To: <GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:13 PM >Subject: Re: [GAGEN] Re: Commercial use of the County sites... > > > > Gloria - > > > > I'll just throw this out once again for those who may have joined the > > project after the last time I posted.... > > > > Data contained in LDS microfilms is done through a copyright agreement >with > > the LDS Church's Family History Dept. and the entity that holds the > > originals. These are NOT considered in the "public domain" as such. In > > order to extract, abstract, index, etc. any of these records (even if they > > are just court records from your county, marriages, wills, etc.), you must > > first get permission from the LDS Family History Dept.'s Copyright Office. > > They are generally more than willing to give it, but it is a necessary >step > > to help prevent the FHL from legal problems should a particular entity not > > give permission for further indexing or some such thing that we as patrons > > reading the film (for personal research reasons) are not aware of. The >LAST > > thing any of would want to do is jeopardize the FHL's reputation or > > standing amongst those whose good graces we all stand in need of (i.e., > > county court houses and other repositories/donors of these original > > records) or put them in any legal trouble. > > > > Here is the information I received from Kathy Warburton of the Family > > History Dept.'s Copyright Office several months back: > > > > <start> > > Before I respond to your request, I must make you aware of some policies >of > > the Family and Church History Department concerning appropriate uses of > > materials in our collection. Due to the increasing publication of these > > materials on the Internet, we are having to become more strict in >enforcing > > these policies to keep the department from being in violation of our > > contractual agreements with the donors of the records in our collection. > > > > Records held in the collection of the Family History Library and Family > > History Centers are intended for non-commercial personal family history > > research only. Use of the records beyond the scope of non-commercial > > personal family history research may violate contractual agreements with > > the records custodians and/or copyright laws. > > > > In order to be sure that we are in compliance with contractual obligations > > and copyright laws, the following uses of the records in our collection >are > > not permitted: > > > > 1. Creating indexes or extracts of multiple entries or of entire record >sets, > > 2. Copying or reproduction of multiple pages (beyond the limits of "fair > > use.") > > > > For certain materials for which the Genealogical Society of Utah or the > > Family History Department possesses unrestricted rights of use and > > publication, an officer of the Society may approve indexing projects in > > exchange for unrestricted rights to use and publish the resulting indexes. > > To obtain such approval, please provide full details in writing, including > > your name and address, the author and title of the materials to be indexes > > along with all film numbers proposed to be indexed and a full description > > lf the purpose of the index and any proposed publication (including > > publication to the Internet) to: > > > > President, The Genealogical Society of Utah > > 50 East North Temple Street, 5th Floor > > Salt Lake City UT 84150 > > > > Please keep this policy in mind before beginning any indexing or >extraction > > projects involving microfilms from our collection or before posting such > > projects that you may have already completed. A notice of this policy has > > been sent to all family history centers and should now be posted in the > > centers. We would appreciate your cooperation in ensuring that the > > Department is able to comply with its contractual agreements with the > > donors of these materials. > > > > I wish you every success in your family history efforts. If you have any > > questions, please contact me. > > > > Sincerely, > > Kathy Warburton > > Copyright Coordinator > > Family and Church History Department > > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints > > Phone: 801-240-2049 > > Fax: 801-240-2494 > > Email: fhd-copyright@ldschurch.org > > <end> > > > > I hope this clears up any misconceptions or confusion any of ya'll have > > about their policies. If not, feel free to contact Ms. Warburton! > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mary Kathryn Kozy > > mkozy@attglobal.net > > Mitchell Co., GAGenWeb CC > > > > At 07:52 PM 5/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >If each CC ordered one film per month...about $3.60....from a local LDS > > >Church/FHL and transcribed the indexes for Wills, Marriages, Warranty >Deeds, > > >Warrantor and Warrantee indexes they would in a years time have a >multitude > > >of material on their site that would allow the visitors to our pages find > > >their ancestors name and then the person could order a copy of that deed, > > >will, marriage record. No professional would be needed to search those > > >records (and I worked as a professional genealogist for some years). No > > >search fee would be charged for looking up records by clerks..as the >index > > >would give each researcher what they needed to order a copy of those > > >records. There is no need to abstract or transcribe the records. If just > > >the indexes were done that would be a wonderful gift to the genealogy > > >community. Now why haven't I done that? Well when I first adopted GA > > >counties I was also preparing and researching to write a book which grew > > >into what could now be two books about the Lumbee Indian Tribe and all of > > >the families. For over ten years I ordered "all" of the microfilmed >public > > >records for Robeson County, NC and also records from Bladen, Sampson, > > >Lenoir, Guilford, Cumberland, and many other NC Counties, and then went >up > > >into VA and ordered VA filmed records and then made several trips to the > > >areas to search in the courthouses and the State Archives to find more >that > > >might have missed being filmed. So that took a primary until about eight > > >months ago when I felt I had gone as far with the research as I would go >in > > >my lifetime. Will leave more for others to pick up where I left off. But > > >now I have started working on the GA Counties that I host...With Ben Hill > > >the records have not been filmed as of yet...but I will make a trip up >there > > >within this year to copy those indexes...Luckily Irwin County records >have > > >been microfilmed and are available..and a cousin has already done a lot >of > > >those transcriptions which he will be providing and what he doesn't >provide > > >I will do.. The Ben Hill County Newspapers have all been microfilmed and >I > > >plan soon to order my first of many films and those I will purchase at >about > > >$24- $28.00 per film..forget correct amount...and I do have a film reader > > >and a fiche reader at home...my files are full of copies of original > > >documents from VA and NC records but very few of GA records and that is > > >because when I began hosting the GA Counties I was in the middle of >another > > >labor of love which is now completed and my time and attention will be on > > >the GA sites..but any of us can take the time to place the indexes online > > >and then no one will need to have a professional go into those records. >What > > >I propose we do will take years to accomplish and there is an occasional > > >need for a professional and they get in touch with us or a person will > > >contact us and request the name of a professional in which ever case I >will > > >be happy to provide that person with the name of someone who can help but >as > > >for the County Pages I believe with all my heart that they are not for > > >commercial use...a special page with commercial options in >research...that > > >is fine...but allow the viewer the option of going there is that is what > > >they want and not misrepresenting links and such by just sending them >there. > > >As someone who did make money at one time from professional genealogy I > > >never took a GA commission...but only in NC, PA, and SC and WV....just my > > >principals and what I feel was the right thing to do...with GA research I > > >did it for free in all cases....a lot of our visitors are elderly folks >with > > >limited incomes or disabled people and those who have pcs but can't >afford > > >the extras, and all are unable to travel... those are the ones who >benefit > > >the most from our project..Can we be proud of our selves if we send them >to > > >a commercial site thinking they are going to find real records that are >free > > >of charge only to find they have arrived at a paying site that they don't > > >have the money to subscribe to...sorry I can't do that...But that is just >my > > >opinion....but free is what the project is all about and free is how it > > >should remain...Gloria..... > > > > > > > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > > >USGenWeb's motto is - Volunteers dedicated to free, online information. > > > > > > > > ==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > > Do you have a suggestion to include in our taglines? If so, please write > > GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== >Got a problem? Contact your RC or ASC at GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com