In a message dated 4/15/03 2:25:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tstowell@chattanooga.net writes: > The RC replied privately to her with > a Bible verse I give you the same Bible verse. Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

In a message dated 4/15/03 2:46:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tstowell@chattanooga.net writes: > Ms. Webb - was removed as CC when her page for over 10 days indicated it > was an independent page - not associated in any way with GAGenWeb. I wrote <asking her about it, never received a reply until I saw it as a complaint on 3/20 Quoting an email from Brenda Webb. " This is the email Tim sent to me on Saturday the 18th. Before I could redirect the link or explain, a new page was in place by him on Sunday the 19th. I knew at that time there was no need to bother with a reply."

Tim wrote: >That is true - yet 60 - 80% of your fellow citizens opt not to vote in most >elections around the country. While you may not take it as an option for >yourself - the vast majority often does. A sad fact. Just because many people do it, doesn't make it right. >As this is a free society folks have 4 options: they can opt to vote - yes, >no or present or not vote. Even sadder: I guess a lot of folks don't see that voting helps keep it free. Vivian Price Saffold Meriwether County 3570 Hildon Circle Chamblee, GA 30341

Tim, I wish your aunt and your family all the best and my prayers will be with the family through your aunt's procedure. Kim Gordon >From: Tim Stowell <tstowell@chattanooga.net> >Reply-To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com >To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [GAGEN] my aunt - catching up >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:14:09 -0400 > >Since several folks have asked - I find this is the best way to answer all >at once: > >Funny thing with visiting my aunt who is dying of cancer - I come away from >seeing her enriched, rewarded and refreshed for she has the sweetest spirit >regarding her future of anyone around her. > >On 4/21 they will try a one time procedure called 'gamma knife' where they >inject cobalt directly into the center of each of her 3 brain tumors in >hopes >of killing the tumors. Two are in the front, left and right and one at the >base of the brain in her neck. This procedure is a new one recently >approved of by the FDA and supposedly they've had remarkable success with >it. > >Of course this is all a delaying of the inevitable but we're grateful for >such time as she has. > >May 19th will be her 74th birthday. > >Tim > > >PS - I'm also posting replies to messages sent to the list as long ago as >4/8, >as I play catch up and wading through the snow...! > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== >Genealogy research usually begins with our great-grandparents to preserve > the privacy of 'living persons'. If you encounter a person searching >their birth parents, the need to go to the area on the web that deals >with just this type of research. Please refer them to: >http://www.adoption.org > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Tim wrote: >No it really isn't stupid to have material in more than one place. The >Internet is all about redundancy. The more places material appears the >better - for if one server is down or dies most likely another source is >still up. Its a spreading out of the eggs instead of keeping them all >together in one basket. which is most fortunate as the data has mushroomed. > >Tim So then why so you speak of AHGP and ALHN like you do? Kim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

>Is this really fair to the CCs of GAGenWeb to paint everyone with the same >brush? > >Individual people make individual decisions as to what to post, not post or >totally ignore. Individual people making said decisions do not speak for >everyone in the project. > >As the President said in the last couple of days - each situation presents >itself to be dealt with its own response. It does not mean that the whole >project or persons in the project would do the same. > >Tim > Don't you think it's fair for all CC's to know what is going on? If we are supposed to be a happy "family", it's only fair that CC's know everything that is going on. Would you rather me name the CC that is doing this????? Kim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

I personally don't consider AHGP a USGenWeb Project a wannabe. It is just another repository for information with NO politics, BASIC guidelines, and NO fighting either! Kim >From: Tim Stowell <tstowell@chattanooga.net> >Reply-To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com >To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [GAGEN] data placement >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:14:06 -0400 > > >While we're at it - consider AGHP or ALHN and other wannabe USGenWeb >projects. > >Tim > >At 02:34 PM 4/9/03 -0400, you wrote: > >Shall we include the two census projects in here, too and contemplate > >there are 4 possible places for census files to be on-line? > > > >Connie > >Acc: Heard > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Saffold [mailto:msaffold@bellsouth.net] > >Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 2:16 PM > >To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: [GAGEN] data placement > > > >Issues in the current debate seem to be fairly simply solved, in my > >opinion. > > > >Submitters, those who offer their data to be placed online (regardless > >of > >whether it is a CC or an outside source), should make the final call as > >to > >where their data goes. They should be made aware that they can have > >their > >data both places, but certainly should be free to choose one or the > >other. > > > >There are advantages to each: > >1. County sites generally are the researcher's first portal to the > >GAGenWeb > >project and potentially provide the researcher with "one stop shopping." > >2. Text presentation may be more suitable than html to some researchers. > > > >Ease of searching differs from site to site, and some days I've had > >trouble > >with the Archives search engine, too. > > > >Posting data in both locations also has its advantages: > >1. More people are likely to see it. > >2. Built-in redundancy gives some insurance that the data will remain > >available. > > > >One would hope we would not need to remind experienced researchers like > >our > >volunteers that *taking* data and presenting it as your own is illegal, > >not > >to mention wrong. > > > >Vivian Price Saffold > >Meriwether County > > > >3570 Hildon Circle > >Chamblee, GA 30341 > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > >Do you have a suggestion to include in our taglines? If so, please > >write > >GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== > >Genealogy research usually begins with our great-grandparents to preserve > > the privacy of 'living persons'. If you encounter a person searching > >their birth parents, the need to go to the area on the web that deals > >with just this type of research. Please refer them to: > >http://www.adoption.org > > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== >This list is for volunteers of the GAGenWeb Project. If you wish to >address only the GAGenWeb Board, send your email to: > <GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com> > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

I might have missed something in the conversation (there has been quite a bot of it lately!) but I have a question or two about this guidelines committee that is being formed. I understand that the committie is supposed to review and possibly change the current guidelines... 1) Was this committee formed with the okay from the higher ups at USGenWeb? 2) Is is normal for a state to have a different set of rules than is already in place at the USGenWeb level? (And is it really necessary) The reason I ask this is because I am hoping to get a county in MS and I am wondering if I am going to have to play by two different sets of rules. 3) When this commitee makes it's decisions, who has the final say so? Does it go to a vote to the CCs of the county pages and the CCs of the archives, or does the final draft go to USGenWeb for their approval? Michele McDuffie Co *** All outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus ***

> I gather you are speaking of the Jackson County CC that resigned > 12/27? This person was put in place by the former RC for the > Northeast Region - Mr. Giddeon. All the while he was RC - > he did her pages, told her she had no need for the password > for the account since she couldn't do webpages and wouldn't > know how to begin. She did no work other than transcriptions > which the RC placed online for her as well. No work other than transcriptions... ow my... what a crime... possibly the biggest benefit to the users there is. I'm sorry, this doesn't wash for me, nor do I think this CC with the work they did dedicate was treated fairly. I also find this seriously trivializes what that CC did do for GAGenWeb. You of course are entitled to disagree. > >I am NOT a malcontent. > > > >I am opposed to abuse of power and removal of volunteers before they > >have an opportunity themselves to this process of defense, that you > >claim is denied to Tim. Hypocrisy is the greatest crime, you want > >afforded to Tim, what he did not give to the CCs he removed. > >Removal, like you and others claim for him, should be the last > >resort, you have not proven that it was the last resort afforded > >those Dismissed from GA. > > Try as I might you've lost me in your last paragraph for your terms > seem to turn on themselves so that what point you were trying to make > got lost. CCs are Removed and then need to Appeal their Removal. You have fought your Removal based on no defense and not following Procedures. I find the 2 to be seriously at conflict and unfair. Why is it OK that CCs need to fight to be re-instated, yet Leadership wants the right to defence before being Removed. > Suffice it to say that dismissed CCs (2) had rights under our > Guidelines to appeal to the Council but chose not to. They went to > National who wasted 2 months of my time to basically say nothing > happened. Then we have another complaint signed by more 'new' led > down the primrose path CCs with encouragement from some from the > National scence. And so we have arrived here. Again, I must take offense. I have not been led down any primrose path. I am my own man. I am not a Malcontent. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? How long must I wait, 2 months, 6 months, 6 years? I'm sorry I didn't see that laid out in any guidelines. Although I am new perhaps to GA, I contend I am more aware and have been involved in Rootsweb <first donation '98> <I simply point out Rootsweb because of the resources that the USGenWeb and GAGenWeb uses on it and NOT because it is the USGenWeb or GAGenWeb> and Online Genealogy than most CCs in GA. I know the issues. I am not some new green recruit as some want to call me. I may not be a founding person in GA or US, but I've had my licks and I've done my time. And I'm really upset that everyone in Leadership can keep calling me malcontent, newbie, not my own person and that they see no problem with such. That to me speaks volumes. > Why 'present' was included in 02-23 as a valid choice - I don't know > or remember if it was discussed but it seems to me to be a wasted > vote. Abstaining <or Present> is found in every Parliamentary Procedures. People have a right to note they are there for the vote, yet not cast for either side. Derek Nichols Echols County, Ga

Tim said: > For those who think this is a power trip - it is not. I seek to serve > the USGenWeb project - GAGenWeb - to its fullest potential - to have > it be a better place than I found it in. I do not want to be SC > forever as some have infered. I do though wish to finish the task > I've started. Which in a democratic society, would mean running for office on that platform and seeing if you have the support of those you serve. Rather than saying, "I'm staying until I get this job done". If you believe in that task and think you are the right person for that job, take it to the people and confirm it is what they want. Otherwise, you could use that argument to stay in power for years, and that's not democracy, nor maybe what is leaving the project in a better place than before. Derek Nichols, Echols County, GA

> Each incident is weighed on its merits - do I make mistakes? You bet > I do, yet for some reason the SC is asked to be right 100% of the > time, forgetting that the SC is a faulty human as well. No, this is where you are wrong. Nobody expects you to be right 100% of the time. We do though expect when you are wrong to say so. That's all anybody ever wants from their Leaders in life. > Could some situations have been handled differently? Yes. It is *NEVER* to late to correct an error. > Would the results have been the same? Perhaps. When folks though > take off in a huff without listening for an explanation, refuse to > answer, keep throwing up roadblocks to communication, its rather hard > for anyone (including the SC) to make things right to the satisfaction > of all. Again, it's because we are volunteers. Often we aren't treated as such, more as employees. We are going to get upset and react much more because we are here for the passion of what we believe in. This needs to be considered and ALWAYS taken into account. > For those who think this is a power trip - it is not. I seek to serve > the USGenWeb project - GAGenWeb - to its fullest potential - to have > it be a better place than I found it in. I do not want to be SC > forever as some have infered. I do though wish to finish the task > I've started. Now, Tim... It will never hit it's fullest potential, that is the nature of potential, it can never be fulfilled. LOL. So can you be more specific, what tasks and what is the progress indicator? That isn't saying, hurry up and finish and move on, that's asking what tasks that you mention above. Derek Nichols Echols County, GA

> >2. Given the turmoil of the past few months, can the current state > >coordinator lead this project toward a more productive future, in > >which it is governed in an open manner conducive to complete member > >participation? > > Governed? There's not much to govern - CCs are mostly selected by the > RCs, the SC is mandated by the National Bylaws to maintain the state > mailing list (GAGEN) and the state site - which is mostly a collection > of links to the county sites plus a couple of Special Projects > (African American and Native American), and some state history that > I'm adding to the site. Yet we are here <recall> because of the removal of several CCs. I'd say that qualifies as Governing. Which remains Vivian's Question, what of the future, and will we still see the same, or will there be change from the current Leadership to move forward with *ALL* cc's for a more productive future, or after the vote will it be back to where we left off and CCs removed and an unwillingness to work with all CCs and their idiosyncracies. Signs that we *ARE^ volunteers and ^NOT^ employees to be called into the office and dismissed without laws to back us. > >As to voting, I take my citizenship in this project seriously. It is > >my right, my responsibility and my privilege to vote. Not voting > >simply is not an option. > > That is true - yet 60 - 80% of your fellow citizens opt not to vote in > most elections around the country. While you may not take it as an > option for yourself - the vast majority often does. > > As this is a free society folks have 4 options: they can opt to vote - > yes, no or present or not vote. Which is a much better way of stating such, than the previous method of you encouraging people not to vote. Derek Nichols Echols County, GA

At 01:00 PM 4/8/03 -0300, Derek wrote: > >>What I can say is this: Our State Coordinator, Tim Stowell, is being >>railroaded through this. At *no time* has the process been fair. At *no >>time* has the NC acted in any fashion that was not underhanded and completely >>and totally unfair. > >And it was 100% fair to those whom Tim Removed? I believe I'm correct when I say that's 3 folks. Ms. Graham - Upson Ms. Woods - Council Ms. Webb - Dawson Ms. Graham - used language unbecoming in any professional situation. Ms. Woods - was removed from the Council for she had no reason to be there. I mistakenly refered to the FGS as a Special Project when in fact it is not but rather her private project. She had been placed on the Council when she was asked to do the Unknown Queries project. After some time she said she wouldn't be able to do that and the project was passed along to Margie Daniels and subsequently is handled via Boards. Ms. Webb - was removed as CC when her page for over 10 days indicated it was an independent page - not associated in any way with GAGenWeb. I wrote asking her about it, never received a reply until I saw it as a complaint on 3/20. If you're gonna speak fair - perhaps you should ask these folks about such - were they fair to GAGenWeb with their actions or lack thereof? >>What are the complaints against Tim? They are bogus and ridiculous. They >>are nonjusticiable and are completely lacking in any form of merit >>whatsoever. They are complaintsa regarding the dismissal of an ASC who broke >>protocol and effectively attempted to start a mutiny (noting that the ASC and >>RC's serve at the pleasure of the SC and are subject to removal at any time >>without cause). They are complaints regarding the dismissal of a CC who >>could not create a document in html format if she wanted to, let alone ftp >>the document. They are complaints by a CC who came forward in defense of her >>cousin with such vulgar language that a sailor would be embarassed (but not a >>Marine - sorry, I remain true to my NAVY roots - Go Jolly Rogers!). > >But it was okay for that CC to serve this Project and host a page for some >time. Then it's discovered she can't do the job and is removed with no >regard to the work that she has done, or managed to get done. I gather you are speaking of the Jackson County CC that resigned 12/27? This person was put in place by the former RC for the Northeast Region - Mr. Giddeon. All the while he was RC - he did her pages, told her she had no need for the password for the account since she couldn't do webpages and wouldn't know how to begin. She did no work other than transcriptions which the RC placed online for her as well. >Although I despise swearing, and occasionally slip myself, it isn't against >the law to swear. Should someone be reprimanded for swearing to a fellow >Volunteer in this Project, yes. Should it mean their dismissal, no. There >needs to be some middle ground. True as far as swearing goes - but to sexually harrass is. >The point is every issue can be seen from 2 sides. Did some things need to >be corrected, certainly. Did they call for dismissal, well I guess that is >what we are voting on. I contend that the dismissals were unfair and too >harsh a punishment for volunteers and that they did not meet the allotted >warning times within our ByLaws. Why were these people removed before they >had their day in 'court' Some actions require immediate action - but - in this instance as well as in the instance regarding the Jackson CC the RC council did approve by majority vote that the actions were warranted. I rarely make unilateral decisions with regards to GAGenWeb but seek counsel of others - to make sure that I'm reading the situation correctly. The RCs can testify to the fact that while some have suggested x action on my part with regards to y situation, I have from time to time departed from their suggestion in an effort to peacefully resolve a situation. >>In closing, I urge you to vote your conscience. My conscience tells me that >>the charges against Tim are trumped, brought by malcontents (such as a former >>ASC who could not wait any longer to become SC, so he started a mutiny). >>Because my conscience tells me these things, voting my conscience means to >>not even go to the polls on this issue and to send a message to the NC that >>his dirty pool and dastardly acts are not welcome here. If you agree with >>me, then I urge you to vote your conscience by not voting. > >I am NOT a malcontent. > >I am opposed to abuse of power and removal of volunteers before they have an >opportunity themselves to this process of defense, that you claim is denied >to Tim. Hypocrisy is the greatest crime, you want afforded to Tim, what he >did not give to the CCs he removed. Removal, like you and others claim for >him, should be the last resort, you have not proven that it was the last >resort afforded those Dismissed from GA. Try as I might you've lost me in your last paragraph for your terms seem to turn on themselves so that what point you were trying to make got lost. Suffice it to say that dismissed CCs (2) had rights under our Guidelines to appeal to the Council but chose not to. They went to National who wasted 2 months of my time to basically say nothing happened. Then we have another complaint signed by more 'new' led down the primrose path CCs with encouragement from some from the National scence. And so we have arrived here. Some folks have also misconstrued what I said in my note of 4/7: I said in part: "I remind you that you have the absolute right to speak your mind by NOT voting. If we do not have a quorum, it will send a message to the AB that you believe they have handled this situation improperly." Some folks think I said don't vote. I did not say that. What I said was that you have options - you can vote (yes, no, present) you can not vote This holds true in every election in the USA. You don't have to vote if you don't want to. You can vote if you do want to. Why 'present' was included in 02-23 as a valid choice - I don't know or remember if it was discussed but it seems to me to be a wasted vote. So let me be perfectly clear - Vote your convictions - Vote - YES if you wish to have an election to replace me as your SC Vote - NO if you wish things to remain as they are pending Guidelines revision Vote - Present if you wish your vote to Not Count or Don't vote if you have better things to do with your time, don't want to be involved or for whatever other reason you can come up with and live with. Tim

At 12:29 PM 4/8/03 -0400, K. Gordon wrote: >For those of you who might not know what malcontent means... > >someone who is discontented, esp. with the government, and ready to make >trouble. > >I am shocked at the use of this word towards those of us CC's who signed the >petition from our so called leaders. This alone should tell those of you >who are unsure of voting because you don't know enough about the situation >that you indeed should vote. We need leaders that will treat us like the >humans we are and not like we are some kind of puppets under their power >hungry control. We are NOT ready to make trouble, we just want all CC's to >be treated fairly. We MUST stand up and stand together. Part of the job of SC entails listening to folks come to ones door and ask questions - to which there may not be easy answers - if at all, make complaints about other folks, get notice of a problem, seeking assistance and many other scenarios. Each incident is weighed on its merits - do I make mistakes? You bet I do, yet for some reason the SC is asked to be right 100% of the time, forgetting that the SC is a faulty human as well. Could some situations have been handled differently? Yes. Would the results have been the same? Perhaps. When folks though take off in a huff without listening for an explanation, refuse to answer, keep throwing up roadblocks to communication, its rather hard for anyone (including the SC) to make things right to the satisfaction of all. Rules, guidelines, bylaws can not cover every possible situation for mankind is adept at coming up with new problems unforeseen by the creators of rules - thus requiring revisions of rules to cover new situations. In the vacuum of no rules to cover x situation the enforcer of rules must use their best judgment - in consultation with others - to find the best possible response to the situation that will come closest to what rules do exist. For those who think this is a power trip - it is not. I seek to serve the USGenWeb project - GAGenWeb - to its fullest potential - to have it be a better place than I found it in. I do not want to be SC forever as some have infered. I do though wish to finish the task I've started. Tim

At 12:57 PM 4/8/03 EDT, MK Harrison wrote: >The bottom line in this fiasco is whether or not the leadership is fair, just >and efficacious. The question of capability has never come up. > >It is about nurturing volunteers to exceed (our) expectations. Georgia is >such a vital State in the realm of genealogical and history. Our enthusiasm >should be high and our projects challenging. > >Someone (today) wrote that few volunteer for projects - perhaps if all of us >felt we are vital members of this group, more would participate. But when >one knows that one slip can be used against her/him - why put oneself on the >line? > >The most productive people feel safe and valued - for their work and their >opinions. We are volunteers - working for the same cause. Period. There is >no room for ego. Personality is for our pages. And respect should be a >given. > >About the accusation of this being because one or all of us who signed the >petition having aspirations of being the SC or an RC - I haven't heard anyone >express interest in taking over. That theory is hooey. > >As far as the email Tim shared with all of us - the one full of marked out >(assumed) curse words. Well, I curse like a sailor.... and I found it >offensive, immature and tacky. On the other hand - it was full of passion. >Perhaps we all could be more passionate about this project...... or life..... > > >There are at least two sides to every story - and then there is the truth. I read over the weekend - never explain - your friends don't need it, your enemies won't believe it. However just for the few folks who are undecided I'll say it all again - in abbreviated form: From the 2/4 item that did/didn't happen according to whom you believe: 1 - P. Moon - Jackson County 2 - L. Graham - Upson County 3 - T. Stowell - Chatham and Coweta counties 4 - Mitchell County 5 - B. Woods - Walton County Additionally we feel that this SC has shown a failure to communicate and respond to CC's regarding GaGenweb Counties in a timely or effective manner. former CC, Evans Co. Debra Crosby, Baker, Dougherty & Lee Cos. Kim Gordon, Clayton & Habersham Cos. Jeff Johnson, Wilkinson Co. Ed Gordon, Clay and Seminole Cos. M.K. Harrison, Barrow Co. Donna Parrish, Forsyth Co. Lisa Graham (Dismissed UPSON COUNTY CC) Sylvia Rankin Pickens County coCC Linda Geiger, Pickens County coCC Paulette Moon (Dismissed Jackson County cc) Bettie Wood CC for Walton & Richmond County, GA, Family Group Sheet Project (& GA Council Member) Suzanne Yelton Shephard, CC for Chattooga County, GA Brenda Webb, Forsyth County (Dismissed Dawson County CC) 1 - The CC resigned on 12/27. We tried to work with her for 3 weeks and were continually rebuffed in our efforts. After 3 weeks we gave up and pulled the plug. My private, copyrighted note to her, was published all over without my permission. 2 - The CC jumped into the conversation of item 1 - without warning making several untrue accusations on GAGEN. The RC replied privately to her with a Bible verse and was subsequently lambasted by said CC with the foulest, vilest language I've seen on any list. It was not acceptable conversation under any circumstance nor would any organization of any quality allow such a person to remain in their organization. 3 - A complaint about some links I was missing on these sites - which neither of my RCs had said anything prior to me about. 4 - A complaint that some files requested by some contributors to the site had disappeared and that I had ignored their request. Since I'd never seen such a request it was rather hard for me to either honor or ignore such. 5 - Not filling CC positions in a timely manner. The RC declined to fill it with the CCs choice as is their right. I stated I'd put the person on the interest list and hadn't gotten to it. The interest list only meant interested in, didn't mean the person would ever get the county or that if someone else came along that fit better they would be passed up in favor of the best fit. - last comment - I don't answer every single message I receive for often folks write to say thank you and don't expect a response. Others write to bend my ear and while I may answer, I might not depending on if I felt they just wanted to get me to hear their side. This was brought to fruition by the former ASC, Mr. Giddeon, who was removed as ASC, not for seeking an election, but asking the rest of the Council to approve a change to the Guidelines so that we could 'pretend' that I had resigned as SC. As the ASC needs to be someone who can work closely with the SC and must be someone the SC can trust and believing that that trust had been broken, I fired him as ASC. Subsequently he chose to resign as RC and CC for his two counties. Since that time, until very recently he has egged folks into believing all sorts of things that just aren't so. Several of the signers are so new to GAGenWeb that they have no idea who I am or how I respond to situations. A couple of the persons I've never had any dealings with and yet another said they didn't pay attention to politics! Had the parties mentioned in the above items filed complaints I could well understand it - but folks who had nothing to do with any of these complaints - signing - mystifies me - other than the fact that they've been led down the primrose path. A few days ago, Mr. Giddeon, publically said that I could go to the hot place along with GAGenWeb - so now you know his feelings for our project. Tim

At 04:44 PM 4/9/03 -0400, Michele wrote: >The Archives and the CC pages are both part of the USGenWeb (GAGenWeb) project. > >It is not a competition nor a race to see who can get the best or the most info. Actually it is a competition and a race within the Archives to see who can get the most info online and it has been going on for several years. Tim

At 04:07 PM 4/9/03 -0400, you wrote: >Kim and the List, > >I hope you don't mind that I add here in reference to your files "With that >CC's name and copyright on that page also.... >and "If you have information that you would like to have added to the page >please submit to me at <<<<<<<CC>>>>>>". > >This has since been changed to a link frame page that the obvious intent of >is for it to appear that the CC did >the work and is taking credit for it. The link frame has that Counties >GenWeb information at the top with the CC's >name above the links to these files and the bottom of the page appears that >it is a part of the county pages...... >Again, I stress what the "intent" of acting in this manner is. > >Most researchers would go to this page and assume the CC did the work.....my >thoughts on this are, as I stated here before and was admonished for under >threat of being unsubbed from this mail list - >Why waste time going to great lengths to make it "appear" you have >personally done all of this hard work(and anyone who has transcribed a >census knows...it IS hard work).....and spend the time it takes to figure >out how to "get around" the rules/ethics/guidelines....whatever and do some >actual transcribing and place it wherever you would like! I think the real problem here stems from a misunderstanding. Misunderstandings by their very nature come when different folks view the same picture in different ways. Some folks see a vase - others see two faces looking at each other. If one takes the Archives statements at face value - and one would assume that when the Archives places a disclaimer that it says what it means and means what it says that if one proceeded accordingly one would be safe in one's actions regarding said disclaimer. However, the fact of the matter is that the Archives over the last 6 years has many disclaimers - varied over time - instead of a blanket disclaimer or the same disclaimer on every file as one would think they would. This item is currently, among other items, being discussed off and on at the National level and in conjunction with the Archives administrators. Even there the AB and the Archives folks have different views of the same picture. Hopefully at some time in the near future - an agreement will come about regarding the disclaimer - as to what it means in plain English that real people can understand - so that there can be no mistake about what it says and means. Otherwise, I fear, the courts will decide it - and that my friends would truly be a shame. Tim

While we're at it - consider AGHP or ALHN and other wannabe USGenWeb projects. Tim At 02:34 PM 4/9/03 -0400, you wrote: >Shall we include the two census projects in here, too and contemplate >there are 4 possible places for census files to be on-line? > >Connie >Acc: Heard > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Saffold [mailto:msaffold@bellsouth.net] >Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 2:16 PM >To: GAGEN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [GAGEN] data placement > >Issues in the current debate seem to be fairly simply solved, in my >opinion. > >Submitters, those who offer their data to be placed online (regardless >of >whether it is a CC or an outside source), should make the final call as >to >where their data goes. They should be made aware that they can have >their >data both places, but certainly should be free to choose one or the >other. > >There are advantages to each: >1. County sites generally are the researcher's first portal to the >GAGenWeb >project and potentially provide the researcher with "one stop shopping." >2. Text presentation may be more suitable than html to some researchers. > >Ease of searching differs from site to site, and some days I've had >trouble >with the Archives search engine, too. > >Posting data in both locations also has its advantages: >1. More people are likely to see it. >2. Built-in redundancy gives some insurance that the data will remain >available. > >One would hope we would not need to remind experienced researchers like >our >volunteers that *taking* data and presenting it as your own is illegal, >not >to mention wrong. > >Vivian Price Saffold >Meriwether County > >3570 Hildon Circle >Chamblee, GA 30341 > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== >Do you have a suggestion to include in our taglines? If so, please >write >GAGENWEB-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >==== GAGEN Mailing List ==== >Genealogy research usually begins with our great-grandparents to preserve > the privacy of 'living persons'. If you encounter a person searching >their birth parents, the need to go to the area on the web that deals >with just this type of research. Please refer them to: >http://www.adoption.org > >

At 11:27 AM 4/9/03 -0500, you wrote: >There is one argument that I've never heard anyone mention when debating the >place of the Archives within the GAGenWeb Project as a whole, and that is >the advantages of having material presented in plain text, as opposed to >material presented in HTML (particularly if using tables and frames). There >are certain browsers that still cannot read tables and frames correctly. >Most county sites use both to format almost every record (I am just as >guilty as anyone else). I only use tables when absolutely necessary as the best way to present the data - and there are times when that works best. >We tend to forget that there are certain segments of the population who >cannot access our sites because of these problems. I'm not just talking >about people with slow or outdated browsers. From what I can tell, the >computer programs used by the blind to read web sites have a hard time >reading tables. Of course, this may have changed in the past few years as >technology evolves to meet the need. Still, this is a valid point...county >web sites are often complicated and graphically challenging, making them >hard for some people to navigate through. Folks who use the Internet have to learn to upgrade - even though we hate to move on from old comfortable program versions to newer ones. Unlike the old days (1996) browsers are now free, so that excuse is not as valid as it once was. As for the blind - the new technology - the coding replacing HTML 4.0 - XML - gives even more flexibility for the handicapped. The trick is to update the pages there already to the newer standards. >My solution to these problems was to streamline my pages, making them as >simple as possible, AND to place text versions of HTML documents in the >Archives. I don't feel like it's a waste of space. Rather, it provides an >alternate method of viewing the material for those who cannot (or prefer not >to) read material in table-and-frame form. The problem I've seen with the Archives is all that double spacing making it hard to read and or too much scrolling side to side which can be limited with HTML. Also if the data is on one's county site - it is much, much easier to make an update than to plead for months on end for someone from the Archives to make a change. Tim

At 11:56 AM 4/9/03 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Liz, > >I have placed many files in the Archives myself and have nothing against >them, but what do you think about CC's who steal the information and make it >look like their own? I'm not talking about just linking to them, outright >stealing and thinking it's ok to do so. We can't have our materials removed >from the Archives to protect against this and we want to have the >information available to researchers. > >This is the kind of thing GaGenWeb has come to in the last year and I for >one don't like it. > >Kim Gordon >Clayton & Habersham CC Is this really fair to the CCs of GAGenWeb to paint everyone with the same brush? Individual people make individual decisions as to what to post, not post or totally ignore. Individual people making said decisions do not speak for everyone in the project. As the President said in the last couple of days - each situation presents itself to be dealt with its own response. It does not mean that the whole project or persons in the project would do the same. Tim