In my last post I innocently asked for a look up, as is done on perhaps every other 'uneducated' rootsweb lists such, AMERICAN-REVOLUTION, SHIPS, CSA, CIVIL WAR, Southern-Trails, NORCAL[Northern California] etc, and then the author posted, not to me personally but addressed to the whole list a caveat emptor of "buy only" her books on Clarke and Jackson Counties. Ms. Poss states: "I RESENT your post which basically says you want "something for nothing". The book has only been distributed to a few people and libraries to date - and you already want to share my work, through the medium of the Internet, with the group you call NORCAL, with no payment by yourself or others for that information. This is ethically and morally wrong! But here is what I said: "I am wondering if anyone would be willing to do lookups for this list in it?[Poss' book] I would be willing to help with any help needed in Glynn Co for trade." Researching Glynn Co public records as trade is not something for nothing. It involves my time, gas money, etc, all of which to say is usually considered worthwhile, as Ms. Poss stated, "Costs for microfilm, my personal travel expenses,...were far from cheap![even though she cites that she received funding from the R. J. Taylor Foundation]" I did not ask something for nothing, expecially in Glynn Co where records are far from the most organized from the last two centuries. And I am not soliciting my services for pay, i.e asking $36/hour to do look ups. My understanding is that there is not suppose to be soliciting on these lists. Ms. Poss states, "and my price is $36.00...Sorry, but that's the way it is.," And "I just happen to have written three books on Jackson Co. records...if anyone else, who is interested in paying for books, wants a listing, just send me an E-mail.)" Note the word "paying." and for four books no less, on lists that are suppose to be free of solicitation. Plus there is a certain je-ne-sais-quoi [to be generic] about saying that $36 for a book is a bargain. Everything is relative. It may be a bargain for all the expense and work done by an author, but for the 88 year old invalid in a wheel chair who can't get to a library easily, has her wits about her and enjoys doing genealogy to leave something for her grandchildren, but lives on a very fixed income, $36 for a book for one look up, that may or may not be in the book, is probably an unaffordable luxury and gamble. It is presumptuous for anyone to think they know what people can and cannot do, or can and cannot afford. Luckily there is Inter Library Loan [ILL] for what information cannot be found on the Internet, even though that can cost as much as $12. But as Bill Gates prophetically said, at some future point ALL info will be on line. We are now reaping the benefits of the incredible vastness of information that is on the net, not just in it's top ten use of genealogy. The net is information, there's no going back. Ms. Poss intimates sharing any info out of it is 'plagerizing.' Being trained as a paralegal [and a board certified physician assistant], I am familiar with legal citations, but I will keep it simple. Plagerizing, according to Random House Dictionary is "stealing [the language, ideas, or thoughts] from another and REPRESENTING THEM AS ONE'S OWN ORIGINAL WORK." Plagerizing is more than citing info out of a book, it has to be exact wording of so many words with the INTENT to steal it as ones own work. Of course, the work here of Ms. Poss are the newpaper abstracts themselves, written by others, so Ms. Poss is citing from abstracts she herself has copied. Ms Poss says: "There's also the issue of COPYRIGHT. If you don't want to step on the toes of various authors, I would suggest you and your group study up on copyrighting. It sounds as if they need educating." Again to keep it simple and out of Random House: "copyright is an exclusive right, granted by law for a certain number of years, to make and dispose of copies of a literary, musical, or artistic work." Ms. Poss cites an simplle article from Oct.'98 on basic copyright in the International Internet Genealogical Society Newsletter by Penny Bonnar who says, "Under some circumstances, usenet postings may fall under the doctrine of fair use and implied license. In such cases, they can be copied without attribution. The post must have been non-commercial and must not have been an artistic or dramatic work." Kinds of works that fall in the public domain from U. PA web site: "The copyright may have expired. The work might be a work of the U.S. Government; such works can't be copyrighted. The work might be one that can't be copyrighted. For example, titles, names, short phrases and slogans can't be copyrighted ( 37 C.F.R. 202.1(a) ). Note, however, they can be trademarks. As far as copyright law is concerned, they're public domain, but as far as trademark law is concerned, they might be protected. The copyright might have been forfeited. For example, the work may have been published without notice prior to the change in the law that eliminated the notice requirement (March 1, 1988, the effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act, PL 100-568, 102 Stat. 2853 ). The copyright might have been abandoned. This is pretty rare.Abandonment requires that the copyright holder intend to abandon the copyright, and generally requires an unambiguous statement or overt act on the part of the copyright holder that indicates his or her intent to dedicate the work to the public domain. National Comics Pub. v. Fawcett Pub., 191 F.2d 594, 598 (2d Cir., 1951). A statement that anyone who wishes to may reproduce, perform, or display the work without restrictions might be sufficient. Simply posting it on a computer network is not abandonment." Copyrights can be purchased, but in this case it would be hard to imagine that the original newspapers of early Clarke Co still exist from which to buy the copyrights. Publishing a census cannot be copyrighted for example. All this information can be shared without fear. Rootsweb might as well throw in the towel, if all authors of all books cited for their info, get as huffy about BGIFS. [her acronym: But Genealogy Is For Sharing]. "BTW, your group is also known by the name BGIFS (but genealogy is for sharing)....because this lack of honorable conduct is - to put the best face on it - arising from a serious lack of education." Am I missing something, listowner Carol Middleton? This Clarke Co list is NOT for sharing info? The list is for an author personally soliciting her books? And being 'uneducated' in Ms. Poss terms is now considered 'lack of honorable conduct.' That GA is 48th in education needs no reminders to the taxpayers. But the implication that because I offered to exchange information is lack of honorable conduct, or "want something for nothing," can be taken to the extreme that Ms Poss just libeled and slandered me, as she took it to the extreme that sharing something out of her book is plagerizing. This is not creating goodwill for her books on this new list. What Ms. Poss doesn't seem to understand is marketing; that by sharing her info, it is how the book proves invaluable to the users. At the least a recommendation to the local library to buy it is commonly forthcoming. So the question becomes one of IF a book is recommended as a useful tool on a list, does the author have the right to solicit the book on Rootsweb? From what "uneducated-me" has seen upon subscribing to other lists, it is usually stated that soliciting is forbidden upon the introduction to the subscription. That is Rootsweb policy. Does Ms. Poss deserve credit for her work when cited? Without a doubt. Does Ms. Poss deserve renumeration for her research? Without a doubt. By those who can afford it. Should Ms. Poss be soliciting her own books on this list? Without a doubt, No. That is not Rootsweb policy. But I hope others on the list are not cowed by the tone of Ms. Poss in her post, and become unwilling to exchange information for fear of resentment, "plagerization and immoral conduct." It's hard to sign my usual Cheers, but Grumps and Grinches always make it even more necessary. Cheers, Tory for the full post see below. Subject: [GACLARKE-L] Re: GACLARKE-D Digest V99 #6 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:17:16 EST From: [email protected] To: [email protected] First - to Carol Middleton (our host), I would like to say 'THANKS!' for mentioning my new book entitled CLARKE CO. (ATHENS), GA, NEWSPAPER ABSTRACTS, 1808-1820! Secondly, I've been quite impressed with the Clarke Co. GenWeb page, and the information shown thereon, and know you're dong a wonderful job! The next item, was regarding an E-mail posted here by a Tory Braden of St. Simons, as follows: > > I belong to a great list for No CA called NORCAL. It has about 500 > members and innumerable resources and people doing all kinds of look > ups. Pray you have kin who ended up there because you will get >really knowledgeable help there. With the expense of the above >mentioned book, I am wondering if anyone would be willing to do lookups >for this list in it? I would be willing to help with any help needed >in Glynn Co for trade. > > Cheers, > Tory Braden > St. Simons > James and Dianna Ann Maddox MCGEE and children, James, John and Peter > in Clarke County @1800. Tory - my book came back from the printers on Dec. 14, 1998 - one month today. In abstracting these old newspapers, I poured over microfilm of newspapers that were almost 200 years old, that had been torn, some too dark, some too light, some blurred and frankly, none of it was easy to read. The abstracting, proofing, funding from the R. J. Taylor Foundation, and gettng the book back from the printers took one year and three weeks to accomplish. Costs for microfilm, my personal travel expenses, printing costs for the book were far from cheap! The book is 8-1/2 x 11 (which means there is almost twice as much as contained in a 6 x 9" book), counting the front matter, it has 400 pages. It is hardback, acid-free paper, which means the book will last indefinitely (and this paper is far more expensive than regular paper), and my price is $36.00. That's 9 cents per page, and that's a bargain! It weighs 3 lbs., and as of today, the Post Office still requires postage -so I have to charge for postage, plus tax for GA residents. Sorry, but that's the way it is. So, considering the above, and all my hard work and effort put into the book, I RESENT your post which basically says you want "something for nothing". The book has only been distributed to a few people and libraries to date - and you already want to share my work, through the medium of the Internet, with the group you call NORCAL, with no payment by yourself or others for that information. This is ethically and morally wrong! There's also the issue of COPYRIGHT. If you don't want to step on the toes of various authors, I would suggest you and your group study up on copyrighting. It sounds as if they need educating. There's an excellent article by Penny Bonnar in the IIGS Newsletter for Oct., 1998 (this is the International Internet Genealogy Society located at www.iigs.org) which includes information about copyrights. And this paragraph is from a member of the IIGS: The IIGS newsletter is having a special issue in April - all about plagiarism, copyrights, replication of ill-researched and flawed ancestries, etc. etc. The USIGS newsletter will also be issuing a special edition - ( a first, I believe in "co-operative genealogical journalism"!) - because this lack of honorable conduct is - to put the best face on it - arising from a serious lack of education. BTW, your group is also known by the name BGIFS (but genealogy is for sharing). I believe genealogy is for sharing also. The way I share is by spending my time and efforts in abstracting records. I even respond to a good many queries on various sites - many times the information I send is not yet published. As for the money part, I have yet to meet an author that gets rich on abstracting records and selling books - and I know a number of them who would definitely agree! One little hint about your query below, Clarke Co. was formed Dec. 5, 1801 out of Jackson Co. I just happen to have written three books on Jackson Co. records. They're found in the majority of the good genealogy libraries (or if anyone else, who is interested in paying for books, wants a listing, just send me an E-mail.) > James and Dianna Ann Maddox MCGEE and children, James, John and Peter > in Clarke County @1800. Sincerely, Faye Stone Poss ___