Pat, I also notice you put your li's above the item. Does this help you keep straight what you need to close after a group? Or is it just your preferred positioning for li? (rather than putting it as: li><a ) I think I understand how to move from Item I, then list of Items, then Item 2 (same level as Item 1) and list of items...end list. But how do I get another list "inside" and grouped under Item 2? Example: First Level Item 1 First Level Item 2 ---Group Item 1 ---Group Item 2 ---------Third Level Item A --------------Group Item 1 -----------------------Fourth Level Item -------------------------------Group Item 1 -------------------------------Group Item 1 ---------------Group Item 2 ---------Third Level Item B etc. How do you switch in and out of levels? I read a web page that made it all sound (deceptively?) simple. It said to do each list separately, then copy it into the spot in the bigger list. I need to get the "pattern" down for the uls and lis (like knit one pearl two) but I mess up the pattern when switching between levels. I'm missing something I need to use. Judy