I'm sorry to be blunt. This is getting totally out of hand and these sort of comments whether tongue in check or not is not helping the situation. Dave gave the definitive and official advice regarding the period (or full stop) it shouldn't be for Syndicate co-ordinators to advise their volunteers to do something to the contrary. Syndicate co-ordinators or volunteers have a perfect right to disagree with the "official" advice offered by Dave, but these should be raised via the DISCUSS list or with Dave direct and if need be to get the advice amended or clarified.. Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger J. Legg" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 26 October 2001 03:20 Subject: The Infamous period............ Dave Mayall wrote on 23/10/2001:- >Having reviewed the position that we find ourselves in now, in particular with regard to the large number of files that have been loaded without transcribing the full stop, we will adopt the following strategy; 1) The full stop *is* potentially valuable data. 2) If transcribers can see a clear full stop at the end of a forename, they should transcribe it. 3) It is accepted that there will be occasions where transcribers cannot *clearly* determine whether a full stop is present, and in such cases it can be omitted. 4) There is NO requirement or expectation that transcribers will make changes to previously loaded files. 5) The database routines will be amended to disregard the presence or absence of the full stop in names (but the full data *will* still be retained by FreeBMD.< I checked with my syndicate organiser after reading the above. My syndicate organizer disagreed with Dave Mayall and told me not to enter the period after forenames when transcribing the deaths index. With tongue in cheek I would urge all transcribers to check with their syndicate organizer before making any decision as to the merits of ........... Roger J. Legg Surname Interests:- CARR Broom Hill, Northumberland, England HEAD / HEDE Kintbury, Berkshire, England LEGG Saint Giles, Camberwell, Surrey, England SHIELD South Shields, County Durham, England WOODS Gorleston on Sea, Suffolk, England, Pre 1889 WOODS Gorleston on Sea, Norfolk, England Post1889 ICQ 129377740 ============================== Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history learning and how-to articles on the Internet. http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library

We are now in the discuss mode on what constitutes a "half a page" and I have moved this topic across to the DISCUSS list. Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheelagh Hawkins" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 26 October 2001 07:19 Subject: Re: Half a page Sorry Phillip I would have to disagree with you there. Surely if a page does not contain any information after a point, then it is complete regardless of whether it is only one line or 380 lines. However, when I know there is about to be a rebuild, I upload my latest file regardless of how complete it is. I work on the basis that the more uploaded the better. If I have not completed a page there should not be a +PAGE at the bottom ( I am sure this is the instance that Dave was talking about) Obviously on the next rebuild, the remaining data will be added complete with its expected +PAGE marker. I guess another example would be if someone gave up half way through, or if a scanned page faded badly or was damaged after a certain point making it impossible to complete. Does that sound like sense, or am I talking complete b******t again:-) Regards Sheelagh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Powell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Half a page > In message <[email protected]>, Allan Raymond > <[email protected]> writes > >I'm intrigued and would like to know in which circumstance would > >volunteers only transcribe half a page (ignoring the particular > >instances where the actual page is devoid of the normal compliment of > >records when there is a change in the index letter or end of a time > >period) > > I suspect it is indeed the change in the index letter - I've had such an > occurrence in my last batch and my present batch. > -- > Philip Powell > > > ==== FreeBMD-Admins Mailing List ==== > Want to help FreeBMD? > Go to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/Signup.html to find out how. > > ============================== > Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp > Search over 2500 databases with one easy query! > > ==== FreeBMD-Admins Mailing List ==== Need to get a fast answer to your transcribing problems? Go to the Transcribers Knowledge Base at http://FreeBMD.RootsWeb.com/vol_faq.html ============================== Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp

"Roger J. Legg" wrote: > I checked with my syndicate organizer after reading the above. My > syndicate organizer disagreed with Dave Mayall and told me not to enter > the period after forenames when transcribing the deaths index. > > With tongue in cheek I would urge all transcribers to check with their > syndicate organizer before making any decision as to the merits of Your syndicate co-ordinator is quite at liberty to disagree with the official line, but he must not instruct people to disregard it. Decisions upon what should be transcribed are taken centrally and apply, without exception, to all syndicates. We have gone to a great deal of trouble to ensure that FreeBMD can work round the problem caused by existing files which have failed to follow the correct rules, but for all future files, the proper method MUST be used. -- Dave Mayall

Keith For scan pages use the image number. Please see our "Transcribing Scanned Source" Web Page at: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/scan-source2.html which quotes: "Note that whilst the page number used by FreeBMD is often the same as the page number used on the original index page, many index pages are not numbered, and in some cases the numbering of the image files may not match the originals. In such cases, your allocations and file naming should match the file name, not the original page name" Anyone transcribing from scans are encouraged to have a look at the above Web Page, which presumably they should be doing when they down load their actual scans? Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Tinkler" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 25 October 2001 14:23 Subject: which page number? I am doing handwritten 1845 Dec births. The tifs I am currently assigned - each image represents one physical page in a record somewhere (!) - are numbered .0921 to .0930 whereas on the pages themselves there is a handwritten number - top right - which are 221 to 230 So - which page number should one enter in the +PAGE line? Keith ============================== Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp Search over 2500 databases with one easy query!

Dave Mayall wrote on 23/10/2001:- >Having reviewed the position that we find ourselves in now, in particular with regard to the large number of files that have been loaded without transcribing the full stop, we will adopt the following strategy; 1) The full stop *is* potentially valuable data. 2) If transcribers can see a clear full stop at the end of a forename, they should transcribe it. 3) It is accepted that there will be occasions where transcribers cannot *clearly* determine whether a full stop is present, and in such cases it can be omitted. 4) There is NO requirement or expectation that transcribers will make changes to previously loaded files. 5) The database routines will be amended to disregard the presence or absence of the full stop in names (but the full data *will* still be retained by FreeBMD.< I checked with my syndicate organizer after reading the above. My syndicate organizer disagreed with Dave Mayall and told me not to enter the period after forenames when transcribing the deaths index. With tongue in cheek I would urge all transcribers to check with their syndicate organizer before making any decision as to the merits of ........... Roger J. Legg Surname Interests:- CARR Broom Hill, Northumberland, England HEAD / HEDE Kintbury, Berkshire, England LEGG Saint Giles, Camberwell, Surrey, England SHIELD South Shields, County Durham, England WOODS Gorleston on Sea, Suffolk, England, Pre 1889 WOODS Gorleston on Sea, Norfolk, England Post1889 ICQ 129377740

Hi, Yes, we have and they are working on it as fast as they can. The article in rootsweb review is specifically intended to show that the records are on the free area of the site and that it is not part of the padi area. This is a result of the messages last week abuot the wording of the press release... Cheers Graham John Parker wrote: > > The current issue of RootsWeb Review > [[email protected]] > > Is promoting http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/main.htm > > Has anyone from FREEBMD told Ancestry that their Data is incorrect? > > John Parker > > Researching > > LAWRENCE - Canterbury - from c1812, Wandsworth, Battersea > > HUELIN - Jersey & London from 1800 > > PARKER - Forest Gate, London and Rochford, Essex from 1880 > > BURNS - Glasgow (Lanarkshire) & Ayrshire from 1840 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 23/10/01 > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2

>If, in your experience, you have seen index entries that lead you to >suppose or suspect that the period following the forename conveys >information, while the other punctuation doesn't (and it appears from your >earlier replies that you have) could you please share your knowledge. Since the discussions about periods started a few weeks ago, I have seen an Eliza. and an Obed. in the pages I have transcribed. Could these possibly be abbreviations of a first name, i.e. Elizabeth and Obediah respectively? Mary Trevan -----Original Message----- From: John and Val Turner <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 22 October, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Period Dilemma

The current issue of RootsWeb Review [[email protected]] Is promoting http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/main.htm Has anyone from FREEBMD told Ancestry that their Data is incorrect? John Parker Researching LAWRENCE - Canterbury - from c1812, Wandsworth, Battersea HUELIN - Jersey & London from 1800 PARKER - Forest Gate, London and Rochford, Essex from 1880 BURNS - Glasgow (Lanarkshire) & Ayrshire from 1840 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 23/10/01

I am doing handwritten 1845 Dec births. The tifs I am currently assigned - each image represents one physical page in a record somewhere (!) - are numbered .0921 to .0930 whereas on the pages themselves there is a handwritten number - top right - which are 221 to 230 So - which page number should one enter in the +PAGE line? Keith

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:46:11 EDT, you wrote: >Hello, >Just when I thought we finally had a DEFINITIVE answer on the "Full Stop >After the Forename" question, I ran across an entry in the 1872 index for >Thornton, Sarah Ann E followed by not one but TWO full stops. >It's the only entry on the entire page like that, including those such as >Tiddy, Elizabeth P. where a middle name is abbreviated. (Tiddy, Elizabeth P.< >= one full stop.) >If the first full stop after the forename holds some significance, how about >a second one? Who knows? Just transcribe it as ".." -- Dave Mayall

Hello, Just when I thought we finally had a DEFINITIVE answer on the "Full Stop After the Forename" question, I ran across an entry in the 1872 index for Thornton, Sarah Ann E followed by not one but TWO full stops. It's the only entry on the entire page like that, including those such as Tiddy, Elizabeth P. where a middle name is abbreviated. (Tiddy, Elizabeth P.< = one full stop.) If the first full stop after the forename holds some significance, how about a second one? Rick (Or in FreeBMD Terms "Rick.") Elliott<g>

Liz, Great tip. Anything that conserves the project's most important resource (volunteer effort) gets a cheer. Doing it this way with WINBMD also means that in the first pass you only get "true" sequence warnings rather than the superfluous ones introduced when periods are used. Val ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Hubbard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:32 AM Subject: tip for entering period/full stop > Since backspacing to enter a period, or full-stop, after forenames, seems to be a hindrance to efficiency in my own transcription, I use the block entry method and enter them as a separate pass thru of the data, using the arrow-down key and . key. The cursor always lands right after the last forename in the field, right where the period should go. > > This means keeping an eye on the original for missing dots so that I don't enter one where it doesn't exist, and avoiding entering a second one where an initial and period have already been entered, but I find it easier than typing them in at the same time as typing the forename. > > I appreciate the definitive statement on this issue, after all the discussion. > > Hope this tip is helpful to others, > > Liz Hubbard > Canada > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237 > >

Dave, At the risk of sounding patronising :-) can I say that this message was very clear, precise and helpful (OK, so d) needs a little tweak!). One could almost see the sweat! Two things: (a) could we capture it somewhere so it is available for reference (b) can we make sure the TKB (and Format.html) are amended where necessary to bring them in line or make them as clear Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Mayall [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 23 October 2001 16:51 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Full Stops, uncertain characters and +PAGE lines. > > > There has been a good deal of discussion on the Admins list > over recent > weeks regarding the above, much of which did not belong there, and has > caused confusion and irritation to other transcribers. ....

Since backspacing to enter a period, or full-stop, after forenames, seems to be a hindrance to efficiency in my own transcription, I use the block entry method and enter them as a separate pass thru of the data, using the arrow-down key and . key. The cursor always lands right after the last forename in the field, right where the period should go. This means keeping an eye on the original for missing dots so that I don't enter one where it doesn't exist, and avoiding entering a second one where an initial and period have already been entered, but I find it easier than typing them in at the same time as typing the forename. I appreciate the definitive statement on this issue, after all the discussion. Hope this tip is helpful to others, Liz Hubbard Canada

Since backspacing to enter a period, or full-stop, after forenames, seems to be a hindrance to efficiency in my own transcription, I use the block entry method and enter them as a separate pass thru of the data, using the arrow-down key and . key. The cursor always lands right after the last forename in the field, right where the period should go. This means keeping an eye on the original for missing dots so that I don't enter one where it doesn't exist, and avoiding entering a second one where an initial and period have already been entered, but I find it easier than typing them in at the same time as typing the forename. I appreciate the definitive statement on this issue, after all the discussion. Hope this tip is helpful to others, Liz Hubbard Canada

I suggest we divert this to the DISCUSS list so that the Admin list can be left for simple answer and questions. Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Smart" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 23 October 2001 19:35 Subject: RE: Full Stops, uncertain characters and +PAGE lines. Hello Dave, Could you put a little more detail into: >d) Use of comments > It is NOT helpful to put text such as "illegible", "page > torn", "Unreadable", "-?sp" > it just means that we have to do more work to fix things. If not for this, what is the comment field for? Brian Smart ==== FreeBMD-Admins Mailing List ==== Want to help FreeBMD? Go to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/Signup.html to find out how. ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237

Dave, thank you for explaining your thinking. As well as being a volunteer transcriber I am also a member of the UK branch of the Society of Indexers - hence my interest in understanding what you have seen/heard about the use of indices in the way described. It was certainly something I hadn't come across before. The Society of Indexers has Genealogy special interest group. It is possible that they have have contacts with specialist knowledge contacts with whom you can discuss your observations if this would be helpful. If you feel it is an avenue worth pursuing please contact me or the Society direct (the Genealogy SIG has its own page http://www.sigg.org.uk/ and welcomes contact from those involved in the use of historical documents). Hope you find this information useful. Val ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mayall" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 4:51 PM Subject: Full Stops, uncertain characters and +PAGE lines. > There has been a good deal of discussion on the Admins list over recent > weeks regarding the above, much of which did not belong there, and has > caused confusion and irritation to other transcribers. > > This message seeks to set out the definitive position on a number of > these issues, as well as restating the official line upon a range of > other queries which seem to recur on a regular basis. > > There is no question of this being a stamping of the foot. Discussion > *is* welcomed, whether on the FreeBMD-Discuss-L mailing list, direct > to me in person, or to the whole team at [email protected] > Discussion on *this* mailing list is however not appropriate. > > Full Stops (Periods to those on the other side of the Atlantic) > =============================================================== > These have been found to occur in some years following some forenames. > It is apparent that either as a result of advice issued by co-ordinators, > or as a result of a personal conscious or unconscious decision as to > the data value of this character, it has been omitted from a number of > transcriptions. In other cases, it has proved difficult or impossible, > due to unclear copies of the index to determine whether a full stop > is present or not. > > Inconsistent practice in this area was causing failures in the matching of > double entered data. > > Having reviewed the position that we find ourselves in now, in particular > with regard to the large number of files that have been loaded without > transcribing the full stop, we will adopt the following strategy; > 1) The full stop *is* potentially valuable data. > 2) If transcribers can see a clear full stop at the end of a forename, > they should transcribe it. > 3) It is accepted that there will be occasions where transcribers cannot > *clearly* determine whether a full stop is present, and in such cases it > can be omitted. > 4) There is NO requirement or expectation that transcribers will make changes > to previously loaded files. > 5) The database routines will be amended to disregard the presence or > absence of the full stop in names (but the full data *will* still be > retained by FreeBMD. > > +PAGE lines > =========== > In order to ensure that FreeBMD can properly build the complete data for a > quarter, it is VERY IMPORTANT that a +PAGE line is inserted at every page > break in the index. > > In typical single page files favoured by many syndicates, this means that the > file would both start and end with +PAGE (the starting +PAGE is added automatically). > > If your file contains multiple pages each page break should be indicated by a > +PAGE line. > > It is highly desirable that +PAGE lines should include the page number of the > page that follows (or would follow where the line is at the end of the file), but > this is not obligatory. > > In the (rare) cases where transcribers are submitting files that start or end mid-page, > no +PAGE line should be inserted. > > There is no general requirement for transcribers to go back and correct files, but > individual transcribers *may* be contacted by the organizers to arrange for correction > of some files. This will particularly apply to files which contain multiple pages but > no intervening +PAGE lines. > > Uncertain Characters > ==================== > A number of cases have come to light where transcribers are using incorrect symbols for > uncertain characters. Further work will be done to correct these cases, but the most common > errors are shown below. Please try to avoid these mistakes for the future, but again don't > go back to try and correct previous errors unless specifically asked. > > a) Use of "." to indicate an unreadable character > Don't! It is incorrect. Use "_" instead. > b) Use of "?" to indicate an unreadable character > "?" is used in only 2 ways. A single "?" at the end of an entry means that you are > uncertain. This use is NOT ENCOURAGED. A "?" is also used as the only character in > a field if the data is clearly not present in the index (as opposed to being there > but not readable). If you want to indicate an unreadable character, use "_" > c) Use of multiple "*" > "*" means 'a number of unreadable characters', so it is meaningless to put "**". If > what you mean is '2 unreadable characters', type "__" instead. > d) Use of comments > It is NOT helpful to put text such as "illegible", "page torn", "Unreadable", "-?sp" > it just means that we have to do more work to fix things. > > http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/Format.html#ucf gives details of the format. > > Transcribing District Names > =========================== > At the risk of overdoing it on the repetition front.... > "Transcribe EXACTLY what you see, including spelling errors and wrong volume numbers" > > Deviations from "Type what you see" > =================================== > Don't transcribe; > 1) Commas between fields > 2) The rows of identical dots that separate fields in the later printed index. > 3) Full stops after Age, Volume or Page Number > These are all merely data separators, and carry no data value. > > All accented characters should be transcribed with the accent (use the special characters > feature) > > Diphthongs are considered to be typographic conventions, rather than letters in their own > right, and should be transcribed as such (the "oe" in Phoebe is two letters not one). > The german "sz" diphthong (the one that looks like a large open "B") is an exception to this > and should be transcribed "as is". > > Where repeated surnames are shown as "----" (or similar) your transcription should include the > surname from the record above. > > Additional Information > ====================== > Additional information regarding special cases not covered above can be found in our > Transcribers Knowledge Base http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/vol_faq.html > > Transcribers who are having difficulty finding information should seek assistance > from their co-ordinator or from this mailing list (syndicate administration > queries must ALWAYS go to the co-ordinator). > > Co-ordinators should assist transcribers to locate the answers to queries from the > published sources. Where no definitive answer to a query exists, it must be passed > up to the project leadership in order to; > 1) Ensure that we can define a policy for the whole of FreeBMD > 2) Enable us to make the information available in the TKB for future cases. > > Co-ordinators passing such queries to the project leadership are encouraged to suggest > what they believe the answer should be! > > -- > Dave Mayall > > > ==== FreeBMD-Admins Mailing List ==== > Want to help FreeBMD? > Go to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/Signup.html to find out how. > > ============================== > Ancestry.com--Your #1 Source for Family History Online--FREE for 14 Days > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1238 > >

[email protected] wrote: > > Hello, > This is not a moot "point" (ahem), I have actually seen it... > What if the period after the name on the page is MISSING? > Should I add it? Of course not; I can't just '"assume" there's one there, > can I? No. If there is no period there, you don't transcribe one. -- Dave Mayall

"Roger J. Legg" wrote: > > Entered:- > James (no period) > James William. (with period) > > No out of sequence error message. > > James. (both with period) > James William. > > Out of sequence error message displayed. > > The above situation is only encountered if the first two forenames are > the same and the second forename has an added forename. The message is a WARNING, not an error. If your transcription is identical to the original you should ignore the warning. -- Dave Mayall

John and Val Turner wrote: > > Dave, Perhaps you would share your reply to Sue to the list as she expressed > my confusion very well. I am not arguing your position - just trying to > understand from someone more experienced in genealogy than I am what the > "qualitative" difference is between the comma or period that always follow > the surname and vol field, and the period that follows the forename list. > If, in your experience, you have seen index entries that lead you to > suppose or suspect that the period following the forename conveys > information, while the other punctuation doesn't (and it appears from your > earlier replies that you have) could you please share your knowledge. My > experience of indices is limited to the 100 or so pages that I have > transcribed and the odd look up for my own family. It had never occcurred to > me that a period that wasn't indicating an abbreviation could be carrying > additional information. >From the indexes that I have examined, it would seem that; 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following a forename, separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not all records on a page 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor typesetting We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter is a contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a period following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not indexed Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum, we can easily tell the program at some future date to ignore the periods. If my hypothesis is correct, and we decide as a matter of policy to omit the periods, we cannot go back and have the program insert the periods. We will have lost data. That explains why it isn't correct to omit the period. The question that we are trying to resolve is not whether it is right to lose this data (it isn't), but whether it is realistic to try and capture it, or whether we will lose so much of it through transcribers being unable to see the character, through deliberate omission by transcribers who decline to follow policy, or through transcribers who omit it without even considering that it may have data value, that we are wasting our time. -- Dave Mayall