Hi Ian Extract from "Advanced Information" on transcribers page. At the top of the page it says "N.B. If you are using one of the add-on packages to do transcription, for example, SpeedBMD, you may not need to read this stuff!" Go past all the stuff about formats. Near the bottom of the page it says "Insert one at the beginning/end of each page. The optional page number, if present, should be the number of the page that follows. If it is at the end of the dataset, it should be the page number of the following page anyway. If it is at the end of a volume, it should be 1 greater than the highest page number." Bob Phillips (John Slann Institute of Transcribers) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Brooke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: half page explained > Hi, > I'm not sure that two aspects of what you say are correct Stephen. > 1. There definately isn't a limit of one page per file - I don't believe > there is any upper limit and I have transcribers who regularly upload files > containing multiple pages. However, these don't really differ from your > description except that there are additional +PAGE,n+1 in the 'middle' of > the file. > 2. I'm unsure about your scenario #3. Assuming (and I think this is > correct) that the 'complete page' matching routine uses nothing but the > +PAGE lines to decide if a page is complete then I don't see how it could do > anything with a file with no opening +PAGE. I have no idea though what such > a file would look like, nor indeed why anyone would want to do this (it > seems to make much more sense to simply add the later lines to the end of > the first and upload the file again). I would guess though that the 2nd > file should look like the first, ie have the same opening +PAGE,n but this > time have a closing +PAGE,n+1 - this is a pure guess though! > > I too am interested in the answer to the other question that someone > raised - how does one close the last page in a quarter when, by definition > there is no page n+1. Is it done by a simple +PAGE or by PAGE,n+1 > regardless of the fact that nothing will ever match n+1. I suspect that > either of these is acceptable but again this is a guess. > Regards > Ian > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Carter" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: half page explained > > > > Graham, at 01:16 28/10/2001, you wrote: > > > > >Hi Garry, > > > > > >lat one before I go to bed ! > > > > > >Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > > > > > Another point that needs clarification: > > > > It is not 'half page' but split page, wrongly named IMHO. > > > > The only time +PAGE is left out is when a 300 name page is split into > > > two files. The > > > > +PAGE is omitted on the first file only. A rare occurence I'm told. > > > > > >Dave wrote on the admins list > > > > I used the term "half page". I should have said "part transcribed > > > > page". > > > > > > > > > >so I think we are in agreement about the wording of half page :) > > > > Sorry to milk this even further, but it seems to me there are four > distinct > > scenarios. > > > > 1) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry and completes > > it to the last entry - in which case there should be a +PAGE,n [n = page > > number] in the first line of the file and a +PAGE, (n+1) in the last line > > of the file. > > > > 2) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry, and closes > > the file before completing the transcription of that page, there should be > > a +PAGE,n in the first line of the file and no +PAGE at all at the end of > > the file. > > > > 3) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the > > first one and completes the page to the last entry, there should be no > > +PAGE,n in the first line of the file but there should be a +PAGE,(n+1) in > > the last line of the file. > > > > 4) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the > > first one and closes the file before completing the page to the last > entry, > > there should be no +PAGE lines at all, either at the beginning or the end > > of the file. > > > > Is this a correct understanding? ( I am assuming that there is a maximum > > of one page per file - this understanding does not allow for there being a > > complete page, between two other +PAGE lines, in the middle of the file). > > > > > > Stephen > > > > Revd S H Carter > > [email protected] > > > > United Benefice of Coalbrookdale, Ironbridge and Little Wenlock > > http://www.rectorshouse.freeserve.co.uk/benefice/benframe.html > > > > > > ============================== > > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library > > > > > > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog >

Maureen My comments to you yesterday still stands. *************************************** My suggestion is to upload your files as soon as you complete or amend them. I can well imagine what is going to happen with a message on the FreeBMD site along the following lines. For example lets assume that the message quotes, "Update due to start 26 October". For whatever reason lets suppose that the update didn't start on 26 October, we will then be inundated with "has the update started" or "why hasn't the update started". ************************************** The same problem above would happen if we substituted "mailing list" for FreeBMD site. These are my personal views, but I believe Dave has enough to do when he starts the database update without having to remember to send emails or update the site as appropriate with messages that he is due to start the update. >From what you have said, you shouldn't have any problems as you upload or replace your files as soon you check them. Incidentally, CONGRATULATIONS. I have just checked the database and you are one of our most prolific transcribers having transcribed over 65,000 records. Without doing any further checks this must put you in the top 5 in our list of transcribers. Regards Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maureen Leadbeater" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 28 October 2001 08:14 Subject: Re: DB Rebuild What about a message on mailing groups 24 - 48 hours before you plan to start the update. My completed files were all uploaded - they go on as soon as they are checked. They just have lots and lots of "_" in them waiting for me do necessary amendments after occasional visits to alternative index source. Home page is now up and running (with some links not working) Maureen

hi, John Slann wrote: > > Graham wrote, > > We can run through the data in that quarter and identify the +PAGE numbers > and print out the sequence. This > can easily highlight missing and odd ones eg. where there is a +PAGE,362 > followed by a +PAGE,368 in the sequence (from different files, tho) we know > that some pages are 'missing' and will check back with you. Its quick to > look and see that these were blank. > > Graham you say "quick", but, I am not so sure. For instance pages with a > large initial only (those denoting a surname change) will appear as blanks. > Not all have been reported by transcribers and they will show as gaps. Each > will want investigation, a thorough job means looking at the tiff before, > the alleged blank, and the tiff afterwards. That will take 5 minutes, 26 > times to get through the alphabet, say two hours. Then in the case of > 1846BQ1 there are at least 19 runs of blanks. Similar checking applies, > but this time only 2 lookups required to look at the tiff at each end of the > blanks to make sure the sheets either side with data do follow on in an > alphabetical sequence. Say 3 minutes at least 19 times means another hour. > That looks like three hours to check for blanks. And (tongue in cheek) can > I get on the site? :)) I would have thought it would take longer than three hours :)) ... I meant quick compared with the original transcription time. It will take time to clean a quarter and the people doing it will spend some time doing. I meant that 3 hours is not a lot in the scheme of things. There will be other checking that will take far far longer !.. I didn't mean to imply that it would be you looking at the scans, btw. Cleaning should be done by volunteers, who may also happen to be coordinators, of course, but not necessarily. I don't see the cleaning being a role of the cordinator.... > I know I do not have to do it all at once but it is not quick. > > So Graham, thanks for helping, I feel that progress is being made, but we > must not minimise the problem (and I must not overstate it!) No, I wouldn't minimise it ... but 'quick' is relative :) Cheers Graham > > John

Graham wrote, We can run through the data in that quarter and identify the +PAGE numbers and print out the sequence. This can easily highlight missing and odd ones eg. where there is a +PAGE,362 followed by a +PAGE,368 in the sequence (from different files, tho) we know that some pages are 'missing' and will check back with you. Its quick to look and see that these were blank. Graham you say "quick", but, I am not so sure. For instance pages with a large initial only (those denoting a surname change) will appear as blanks. Not all have been reported by transcribers and they will show as gaps. Each will want investigation, a thorough job means looking at the tiff before, the alleged blank, and the tiff afterwards. That will take 5 minutes, 26 times to get through the alphabet, say two hours. Then in the case of 1846BQ1 there are at least 19 runs of blanks. Similar checking applies, but this time only 2 lookups required to look at the tiff at each end of the blanks to make sure the sheets either side with data do follow on in an alphabetical sequence. Say 3 minutes at least 19 times means another hour. That looks like three hours to check for blanks. And (tongue in cheek) can I get on the site? I know I do not have to do it all at once but it is not quick. So Graham, thanks for helping, I feel that progress is being made, but we must not minimise the problem (and I must not overstate it!) John

Surely the GRO could provide the definitive answer to this question? They must hold the records of the instructions issued to their transcribers as to the format they should use when compiling the indexes, where to place full stops, commas etc. and the reasons for doing so. Would it not be worthwhile contacting them? David Gray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Hart" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Dave: Period means the END !! > Hi, > > Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > | Dave Mayall said: > > | > > 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following a > > forename, > > | > > separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. > > | > > 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not all records > > | > > on a page > > | > > 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor typesetting > > | > > > > | > > We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter is a > > | > > contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a period > > | > > following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not indexed > > snip > > > > I don't know which page Dave is on about but I have checked out a number of typed > > pages here; > > http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/GUS/1868/Marriages/March/DB-01 > > 1868M1-0007.tif > > 1868M1-0008.tif > > 1868M1-0009.tif > > > > The fullstop/period denotes the end of something not the opposite. My dictionary says > > 'Complete cessation'. IMHO the period signifies the end of the forenames, NOT the > > possible continuance of. Notice they use a comma after a surname MEANING more > > follows. > > > Surely the full stop after Mr. Mrs. St. etc shows it as being a method > for indicating a shortened form of the word. It can also be a full stop > at the end of a sentence of an expression meaning the end. In this case, > the discussion is whether it is being used to indicate that the data > immediately preceding it has been shortened in some way. > > Neither you nor I are able to say for sure that they are not shortened. > But we can say that, if the period is indicating that something was > shortened, then not transcribing it loses that information from the > index. The deision we have to take is whether it can carry informtion or > not and we believe it can. > > > - Contrary to 2) above: There is a period at the end of EVERY Forename on each page > > above and if it's not there it's been obliterated. > > That is a very small subset of pages in the index and you are surely not > asking us to extrapolate from 3 scan images to apply it to the rest of > the 100 million records ? > > > - If there are two forenames the period is only entered after the second name. > > - Some names have three F'names ie Mary Ann B., the period is at the end (this period > > must be entered as it's an abbrev.). > > Surely this is the whole crux. We are saying that you cannot be sure > that the others are not abbreviations as well. I am sure that for > certain periods of time the indexes contain a consistent way of > indicating abbreviations, but that is unlikely to be consistent across > the 60 years and the set of data. > > > - I tried to find a 4+ F'name example but could not. But I assume they would write it > > Mary Ann B C. Maybe someone could give us an example of a name longer than 3 F'names. > > I think there have been some recently on the admins list. > > > | Dave Mayall said > > | > Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum...snip > > > > It's worse than bunkum, I think it's a load of hot smelly air to be honest, Dave!. > > And we're all downwind :-). > no comment. > > > > Logic/common sense has to prevail here at sometime, I'm sure. > > Yes, but common sense can differ from person to person and someone has > to take a decision. Our deiciosn is based on the whole project and what > we are trying to achieve. > > > THE PERIOD is there to say THE END...... and is NOT 'potentially valuable data'. > > > What say you?. > > I say a full stop is used frequently to indicate an abbreviation and may > be being used in that way in some of these records. > > Cheers > > Graham > > > > > Garry > > KIWIZ Syndicate Co-ordinator > > > > ============================== > > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237 > > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > >

Hi Teri, See my response to John's posting .. :) We'll try to make the determined position clear in chnges on the website so that you know what we would prefer and what is or isn't acceptable :) Its possible that what I have said in the preceding emails will get adjusted a bit is Ihave missed anything. The disucss list is for discussing and, at the moment, I am joining in with the discussing as opposed to stating policy :)) cheers Graham Gypsy wrote: > > You know I have to admit, I've been getting a bit lost here at > times with all of this BUT (not shouting) I do see what John's > trying to say now - I think! > > See, I download all the files. I then email them out to my > team. Obviously I dont email out the blanks sooooooooo, my > teams +PAGE numbers are not going to be right are they because > there's big gaps in the number sequences to allow for the blank > files? > > I send out 1862B1-0380.tif as the last page before the > alphabetical change so that files +PAGE,0380 & +PAGE,0381 - the > next file after the blanks is 1862B1-0392.tif ending up with > +PAGE,0392 & +PAGE,0393 > > Oh ooooops. Now what have I done? > > Cheers > Teri > -- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 156 Release Date: 25/10/2001 > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp

Hi, Philip Powell wrote: > > In message <[email protected]>, Ian Brooke > <[email protected]> writes > >I too have this problem with lots of blank pages. > >The reply that was given to me was that the file containing the page > >immediately before a blank should terminate with a +PAGE,n where n is the > >page number of the next non-blank page. > > That presupposes you will know what the number of the next non-blank > page will be. Yes, it does .. but if it is not known and you use the next page number, then this will show up in the chekcing phase and can be validated. See my response to John Slann... > In the examples from my own experience which I have > previously quoted, had I received my normal allocation of 10 pages I > would have had no definite idea where the next non-blank page was. hopefully, it won't be a problem :) Cheers Graham > -- > Philip Powell > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237

hi, John Slann wrote: > > Ian said > > > I too am interested in the answer to the other question that someone > > raised - how does one close the last page in a quarter when, by definition > > there is no page n+1. Is it done by a simple +PAGE or by PAGE,n+1 > > regardless of the fact that nothing will ever match n+1. I suspect that > > either of these is acceptable but again this is a guess. > > I anticipate being told off again but I promise to take it in good part. :)) I hope that you won't get tol off for asking genuine questions :)) > Here is the scenario transcriber A has a block of transcriptions which run > from 1846B1-G-P-1156.tif to 1846B1-G-P-1165.tif and dutifully finishes of > with +PAGE,n+1. Transcriber B is allocated pages that run from > 1846B1-G-P-1166.tif to 1846B1-G-P-1175.tif. Sadly on down loading these are > all blanks. So nothing is transcribed and nothing is uploaded and no record > will exist of files in this range will exist when the Range Check is run for > this quarter. The next download with data for transcription is > 1846B1-G-P-1176.tif . > > Now various kind people have tried to explain that this is not a problem, > but I cannot get my mind round their explanations. I do not see how this > can be when one file ends expecting to find a file that stems from > 1846B1-G-P-1166.tif, but there is no record of this. The next file in > sequence actually stems from 1846B1-G-P-1176.tif . ok, the reason that it is not a problem is that you will ultimately supply to us a completed quarter. We can run through the data in that quarter and identify the +PAGE numbers and print out the sequence. This can easily highlight missing and odd ones eg. where there is a +PAGE,362 followed by a +PAGE,368 in the sequence (from different files, tho) we know that some pages are 'missing' and will check back with you. Its quick to look and see that these were blank. Does that help ? > In case any one thinks I am banging on about a theoretical situation these > file numbers have been taken from my records and reflect what has been > reported to me. If anyone thinks it is an isolated instance there are 19 > runs of blanks in 1846 BQ1 reported to me so far. This means if someone > else has to do the range check in my place they have at least 190 pages of > gaps to investigate to be sure all data that should be present is present Yep, there will be some work to do to clean the data and sort it out, but the work can and will be mad easier by programming. But the checkers will need to confirm the 19 scans ... > I would be more than happy to let this matter die, but I will not rest easy > in my mind until I have understood the explanations that Dave and others > have given so far. > > I would dearly love to rest my case. I hope that has cleared it a bit (and hasn't introduced anything too controversial :) ) Cheers Graham > > John > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237

Hi Ian, Ian Brooke wrote: > > Hi, > I'm not sure that two aspects of what you say are correct Stephen. > 1. There definately isn't a limit of one page per file - I don't believe > there is any upper limit and I have transcribers who regularly upload files > containing multiple pages. However, these don't really differ from your > description except that there are additional +PAGE,n+1 in the 'middle' of > the file. There is no limit to the number of pages inside a file, that is correct. (file size is the limit, I suppose nd I don't thnk we are gonna hit that !) > 2. I'm unsure about your scenario #3. Assuming (and I think this is > correct) that the 'complete page' matching routine uses nothing but the > +PAGE lines to decide if a page is complete then I don't see how it could do > anything with a file with no opening +PAGE. I have no idea though what such > a file would look like, nor indeed why anyone would want to do this (it > seems to make much more sense to simply add the later lines to the end of > the first and upload the file again). I would guess though that the 2nd > file should look like the first, ie have the same opening +PAGE,n but this > time have a closing +PAGE,n+1 - this is a pure guess though! This scenario is less likely to occur these days with the scan syndicates, but is more common in separately transcribed entries which are not from scans or are from a one named study. E.g. if I transcribed the HARTs they could start in the middle of a page and cross a page boundary. > I too am interested in the answer to the other question that someone > raised - how does one close the last page in a quarter when, by definition > there is no page n+1. Is it done by a simple +PAGE or by PAGE,n+1 > regardless of the fact that nothing will ever match n+1. I suspect that > either of these is acceptable but again this is a guess. Yes, I suspect that you are correct and using +PAGE,n+1 is the sensible way in this instance. As far as the matchign is concerned, remember that the way we match at the moment and the way we will match with completed double entry runs will be slightly different. When a quarter is complete, it will be 'cleaned' as far as possible whilst keeping the integrity of the transcription. Part of this cleaning mechanism should be to split it into pages. When the double entry is then available for matching, the pages can be matched against each other as opposed to the long strings of entries that tends to happen today. When splitting into pages, the osftware can easily count, check and throw up apparent differences in page numbers etc which could then be checked against the scans. I think, and Dave will correct me if I am wrong, that this area is one that we wiil be able to identify problems programmatically and go back and tweak during the checking phase. This will highlight missing pages, blanks, places where people have the page number wrong etcetc... However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't get it right first time where possible :)) And it does have an impact on the matching process as it stands which is where this discussion came from in the first place. Hope that helps Cheers Graham > Regards > Ian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Carter" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: half page explained > > > Graham, at 01:16 28/10/2001, you wrote: > > > > >Hi Garry, > > > > > >lat one before I go to bed ! > > > > > >Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > > > > > Another point that needs clarification: > > > > It is not 'half page' but split page, wrongly named IMHO. > > > > The only time +PAGE is left out is when a 300 name page is split into > > > two files. The > > > > +PAGE is omitted on the first file only. A rare occurence I'm told. > > > > > >Dave wrote on the admins list > > > > I used the term "half page". I should have said "part transcribed > > > > page". > > > > > > > > > >so I think we are in agreement about the wording of half page :) > > > > Sorry to milk this even further, but it seems to me there are four > distinct > > scenarios. > > > > 1) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry and completes > > it to the last entry - in which case there should be a +PAGE,n [n = page > > number] in the first line of the file and a +PAGE, (n+1) in the last line > > of the file. > > > > 2) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry, and closes > > the file before completing the transcription of that page, there should be > > a +PAGE,n in the first line of the file and no +PAGE at all at the end of > > the file. > > > > 3) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the > > first one and completes the page to the last entry, there should be no > > +PAGE,n in the first line of the file but there should be a +PAGE,(n+1) in > > the last line of the file. > > > > 4) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the > > first one and closes the file before completing the page to the last > entry, > > there should be no +PAGE lines at all, either at the beginning or the end > > of the file. > > > > Is this a correct understanding? ( I am assuming that there is a maximum > > of one page per file - this understanding does not allow for there being a > > complete page, between two other +PAGE lines, in the middle of the file). > > > > > > Stephen > > > > Revd S H Carter > > [email protected] > > > > United Benefice of Coalbrookdale, Ironbridge and Little Wenlock > > http://www.rectorshouse.freeserve.co.uk/benefice/benframe.html > > > > > > ============================== > > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library > > > > > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

Hi, Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > | Dave Mayall said: > | > > 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following a > forename, > | > > separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. > | > > 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not all records > | > > on a page > | > > 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor typesetting > | > > > | > > We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter is a > | > > contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a period > | > > following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not indexed > snip > > I don't know which page Dave is on about but I have checked out a number of typed > pages here; > http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/GUS/1868/Marriages/March/DB-01 > 1868M1-0007.tif > 1868M1-0008.tif > 1868M1-0009.tif > > The fullstop/period denotes the end of something not the opposite. My dictionary says > 'Complete cessation'. IMHO the period signifies the end of the forenames, NOT the > possible continuance of. Notice they use a comma after a surname MEANING more > follows. Surely the full stop after Mr. Mrs. St. etc shows it as being a method for indicating a shortened form of the word. It can also be a full stop at the end of a sentence of an expression meaning the end. In this case, the discussion is whether it is being used to indicate that the data immediately preceding it has been shortened in some way. Neither you nor I are able to say for sure that they are not shortened. But we can say that, if the period is indicating that something was shortened, then not transcribing it loses that information from the index. The deision we have to take is whether it can carry informtion or not and we believe it can. > - Contrary to 2) above: There is a period at the end of EVERY Forename on each page > above and if it's not there it's been obliterated. That is a very small subset of pages in the index and you are surely not asking us to extrapolate from 3 scan images to apply it to the rest of the 100 million records ? > - If there are two forenames the period is only entered after the second name. > - Some names have three F'names ie Mary Ann B., the period is at the end (this period > must be entered as it's an abbrev.). Surely this is the whole crux. We are saying that you cannot be sure that the others are not abbreviations as well. I am sure that for certain periods of time the indexes contain a consistent way of indicating abbreviations, but that is unlikely to be consistent across the 60 years and the set of data. > - I tried to find a 4+ F'name example but could not. But I assume they would write it > Mary Ann B C. Maybe someone could give us an example of a name longer than 3 F'names. I think there have been some recently on the admins list. > | Dave Mayall said > | > Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum...snip > > It's worse than bunkum, I think it's a load of hot smelly air to be honest, Dave!. > And we're all downwind :-). no comment. > Logic/common sense has to prevail here at sometime, I'm sure. Yes, but common sense can differ from person to person and someone has to take a decision. Our deiciosn is based on the whole project and what we are trying to achieve. > THE PERIOD is there to say THE END...... and is NOT 'potentially valuable data'. > What say you?. I say a full stop is used frequently to indicate an abbreviation and may be being used in that way in some of these records. Cheers Graham > > Garry > KIWIZ Syndicate Co-ordinator > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237

In message <[email protected]>, Ian Brooke <[email protected]> writes >I too have this problem with lots of blank pages. >The reply that was given to me was that the file containing the page >immediately before a blank should terminate with a +PAGE,n where n is the >page number of the next non-blank page. That presupposes you will know what the number of the next non-blank page will be. In the examples from my own experience which I have previously quoted, had I received my normal allocation of 10 pages I would have had no definite idea where the next non-blank page was. -- Philip Powell

Gary What say I? The DISCUSS list is for general FreeBMD discussion. This list allows subscribers to offer opinion as to what we should be doing. Ideas discussed on this list will form a major input to the FreeBMD decision making process. However the last thing we want is to start a flame war by your out of order comments. Please desist from making derogatory comments. Rational discussion to get an end result is the order of play. Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kiwiz Syndicate" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 28 October 2001 06:28 Subject: Dave: Period means the END !! | Dave Mayall said: | > > 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following a forename, | > > separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. | > > 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not all records | > > on a page | > > 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor typesetting | > > | > > We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter is a | > > contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a period | > > following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not indexed snip I don't know which page Dave is on about but I have checked out a number of typed pages here; http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/GUS/1868/Marriages/March/DB-01 1868M1-0007.tif 1868M1-0008.tif 1868M1-0009.tif The fullstop/period denotes the end of something not the opposite. My dictionary says 'Complete cessation'. IMHO the period signifies the end of the forenames, NOT the possible continuance of. Notice they use a comma after a surname MEANING more follows. - Contrary to 2) above: There is a period at the end of EVERY Forename on each page above and if it's not there it's been obliterated. - If there are two forenames the period is only entered after the second name. - Some names have three F'names ie Mary Ann B., the period is at the end (this period must be entered as it's an abbrev.). - I tried to find a 4+ F'name example but could not. But I assume they would write it Mary Ann B C. Maybe someone could give us an example of a name longer than 3 F'names. | Dave Mayall said | > Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum...snip It's worse than bunkum, I think it's a load of hot smelly air to be honest, Dave!. And we're all downwind :-). Logic/common sense has to prevail here at sometime, I'm sure. THE PERIOD is there to say THE END...... and is NOT 'potentially valuable data'. What say you?. Garry KIWIZ Syndicate Co-ordinator ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=702&sourceid=1237

Hi I promised on the SYNDICATE list yesterday to prepare some instructions about +PAGE. I based the instructions from the recent emails on this subject and have included it on my own Web Site at : http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/FreeBMD_PAGE_Instructions.htm By including this instruction on my Web Site I can do immediate changes. This is meant to be the definitive instruction on +PAGE (based on the fact that the actual advice was given by one of the Project Leaders) until such time as it appears on the FreeBMD site. I welcome comments adverse or otherwise and also if you consider we need to include further clarification but please send them to the DISCUSS list and not me personally, I have included a link to the DISCUSS list on Web Page. Regards Allan Raymond [email protected] http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Monarchies_of_Europe.htm FreeBMD - putting birth marriages and deaths on the Internet http://FreeBMD.rootsweb.com/

forward to the discuss list. PLEASE keep it on the right list. Cheers Graham Brian Smart wrote: > > The explanation I was given regarding the need for +PAGE,???? on the end of > a file was as follows. > The data compiler looks for the +PAGE entry to know which is the next file > in the sequence. I had no problems with that, and it seems perfectly > logical. > > How is the following explained? > > In the 1845 births there are three strands of numbers all starting from 1. > Thus unless action is taken to avoid it, there will be three files with the > same +PAGE number at the end of the file. Although at present +PAGE has not > been added, two files that show this are 45B3A002 and 45B3J002. > > If the data compiler can overcome this, is +PAGE really needed? > > For my own reasons I did not use the numbering system as in the September > quarter, thus the March quarter has unique numbers for each file. > > Regards > > Brian Smart > > ==== FreeBMD-Admins Mailing List ==== > Want to help FreeBMD? > Go to http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/Signup.html to find out how. > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Powell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 3:59 AM Subject: Re: half page explained > In message <[email protected]>, Ian Brooke > <[email protected]> writes > >I too have this problem with lots of blank pages. > >The reply that was given to me was that the file containing the page > >immediately before a blank should terminate with a +PAGE,n where n is the > >page number of the next non-blank page. > > That presupposes you will know what the number of the next non-blank > page will be. In the examples from my own experience which I have > previously quoted, had I received my normal allocation of 10 pages I > would have had no definite idea where the next non-blank page was. > -- > Philip Powell Indeed it does. It also presupposes that the transcriber is aware that the following page is blank. If a transcriber is given an allocation of 10 pages ending in page x then then person has no way of knowing, without going out of their way and checking, that page x+1 is blank. However, that doesn't invalidate a way of handling the situations where the transcriber does know, or can be told, these details. Ian

And in addition - having just had a really good look at my current Death page (1893)! On EVERY record there is: Name(s). blank space Age then the row of dots before the District e.g SLATER, Mary Ann. 55 ........ Pancras 1b. 131 _____ Mary Elizabeth. 2 ....... Sheffield 9c. 378 Sue E Sussex, UK My Family Tree Website is at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sadovaston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Burton" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 28 October 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Fullstop > Hi > > I could agree with the theory of a full stop showing an abbreviated name if > it wasn't for the following: > > 1) They are only found on Death records not on Births or Marriages > 2) They are found on EVERY Death record in my particular scans, whatever the > preceding Forename(s) or initials may be - Dave has this wrong in (2) below > > The only instances we've seen (so far) where this theory could be correct is > after Eliza and Obed - which could be a shortened form but are also names in > their own right > > To me it seems obvious that they have been put it as separators between the > Forenames and the Age in Death records. Especially when we have an instance > of 2 full stops after Sarah Ann E - that would be one full stop for the > initial E and one as a separator. > > Sue > E Sussex, UK > My Family Tree Website is at > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sadovaston > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Hart" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: 28 October 2001 1:10 AM > Subject: Re: Dave; Fullstop > > > > Hi Garry, > > > > As Dave is not around at the mo .. here is his answer from a few days > > ago on this list ... > > > > > > Dave Mayall said: > > > > 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following > a forename, > > > > separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. > > > > 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not > all records > > > > on a page > > > > 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor > typesetting > > > > > > > > We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter > is a > > > > contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a > period > > > > following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not > indexed > > > > > > > > Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum, we can easily tell the program at > some future > > > > date to ignore the periods. If my hypothesis is correct, and we decide > as a matter > > > > of policy to omit the periods, we cannot go back and have the program > insert the > > > > periods. We will have lost data. > > > > > > > > That explains why it isn't correct to omit the period. > > > > > > > > The question that we are trying to resolve is not whether it is right > to lose this > > > > data (it isn't), but whether it is realistic to try and capture it, or > whether we > > > > will lose so much of it through transcribers being unable to see the > character, through > > > > deliberate omission by transcribers who decline to follow policy, or > through transcribers > > > > who omit it without even considering that it may have data value, that > we are wasting our > > > > time. > > > > > > Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > > > >The full stop *is* potentially valuable data. > > > > > > I cant' see any possible way a fullstop could be 'potentially valuable > data' > > > after a F'name, the decision seems somewhat pedantic to me . Please > clarify > > > 'potentially valuable' for me please. > > > > I understand that some people may find it pedanitc, but it is for a > > reason. We believe that it might indictae a shortened name for example > > and it may be a clue to the person reading the record. We should give > > people as much info as we can .. > > > > Hope that helps > > > > Cheers > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > Garry > > > KIWIZ Syndicate Co-ordinator > > > > > > ============================== > > > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > > > > > > ============================== > > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > > > > > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library > >

Ian said > I too am interested in the answer to the other question that someone > raised - how does one close the last page in a quarter when, by definition > there is no page n+1. Is it done by a simple +PAGE or by PAGE,n+1 > regardless of the fact that nothing will ever match n+1. I suspect that > either of these is acceptable but again this is a guess. I anticipate being told off again but I promise to take it in good part. Here is the scenario transcriber A has a block of transcriptions which run from 1846B1-G-P-1156.tif to 1846B1-G-P-1165.tif and dutifully finishes of with +PAGE,n+1. Transcriber B is allocated pages that run from 1846B1-G-P-1166.tif to 1846B1-G-P-1175.tif. Sadly on down loading these are all blanks. So nothing is transcribed and nothing is uploaded and no record will exist of files in this range will exist when the Range Check is run for this quarter. The next download with data for transcription is 1846B1-G-P-1176.tif . Now various kind people have tried to explain that this is not a problem, but I cannot get my mind round their explanations. I do not see how this can be when one file ends expecting to find a file that stems from 1846B1-G-P-1166.tif, but there is no record of this. The next file in sequence actually stems from 1846B1-G-P-1176.tif . In case any one thinks I am banging on about a theoretical situation these file numbers have been taken from my records and reflect what has been reported to me. If anyone thinks it is an isolated instance there are 19 runs of blanks in 1846 BQ1 reported to me so far. This means if someone else has to do the range check in my place they have at least 190 pages of gaps to investigate to be sure all data that should be present is present I would be more than happy to let this matter die, but I will not rest easy in my mind until I have understood the explanations that Dave and others have given so far. I would dearly love to rest my case. John

Hi I could agree with the theory of a full stop showing an abbreviated name if it wasn't for the following: 1) They are only found on Death records not on Births or Marriages 2) They are found on EVERY Death record in my particular scans, whatever the preceding Forename(s) or initials may be - Dave has this wrong in (2) below The only instances we've seen (so far) where this theory could be correct is after Eliza and Obed - which could be a shortened form but are also names in their own right To me it seems obvious that they have been put it as separators between the Forenames and the Age in Death records. Especially when we have an instance of 2 full stops after Sarah Ann E - that would be one full stop for the initial E and one as a separator. Sue E Sussex, UK My Family Tree Website is at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~sadovaston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Hart" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: 28 October 2001 1:10 AM Subject: Re: Dave; Fullstop > Hi Garry, > > As Dave is not around at the mo .. here is his answer from a few days > ago on this list ... > > > Dave Mayall said: > > > 1) There are cases where there is quite distinctly a period following a forename, > > > separate from and different to the row of dots that follow. > > > 2) The use of such a period would appear to be against some but not all records > > > on a page > > > 3) we can conclude that either it means something or is poor typesetting > > > > > > We know that a period following a single letter means that the letter is a > > > contraction of a name to an initial, so I propose a hypothesis that a period > > > following a forename MAY indicate that there are further forenames not indexed > > > > > > Now, if my hypothesis is bunkum, we can easily tell the program at some future > > > date to ignore the periods. If my hypothesis is correct, and we decide as a matter > > > of policy to omit the periods, we cannot go back and have the program insert the > > > periods. We will have lost data. > > > > > > That explains why it isn't correct to omit the period. > > > > > > The question that we are trying to resolve is not whether it is right to lose this > > > data (it isn't), but whether it is realistic to try and capture it, or whether we > > > will lose so much of it through transcribers being unable to see the character, through > > > deliberate omission by transcribers who decline to follow policy, or through transcribers > > > who omit it without even considering that it may have data value, that we are wasting our > > > time. > > > Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > >The full stop *is* potentially valuable data. > > > > I cant' see any possible way a fullstop could be 'potentially valuable data' > > after a F'name, the decision seems somewhat pedantic to me . Please clarify > > 'potentially valuable' for me please. > > I understand that some people may find it pedanitc, but it is for a > reason. We believe that it might indictae a shortened name for example > and it may be a clue to the person reading the record. We should give > people as much info as we can .. > > Hope that helps > > Cheers > > Graham > > > > > Garry > > KIWIZ Syndicate Co-ordinator > > > > ============================== > > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > >

What about a message on mailing groups 24 - 48 hours before you plan to start the update. My completed files were all uploaded - they go on as soon as they are checked. They just have lots and lots of "_" in them waiting for me do necessary amendments after occasional visits to alternative index source. Home page is now up and running (with some links not working) Maureen Reseaching in Durham , PREST, MAKEPEACE, BUXTON, COOK, SMITH

Graham, at 01:16 28/10/2001, you wrote: >Hi Garry, > >lat one before I go to bed ! > >Kiwiz Syndicate wrote: > > > > Another point that needs clarification: > > It is not 'half page' but split page, wrongly named IMHO. > > The only time +PAGE is left out is when a 300 name page is split into > two files. The > > +PAGE is omitted on the first file only. A rare occurence I'm told. > >Dave wrote on the admins list > > I used the term "half page". I should have said "part transcribed > > page". > > > >so I think we are in agreement about the wording of half page :) Sorry to milk this even further, but it seems to me there are four distinct scenarios. 1) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry and completes it to the last entry - in which case there should be a +PAGE,n [n = page number] in the first line of the file and a +PAGE, (n+1) in the last line of the file. 2) If someone starts transcribing a page from the 1st entry, and closes the file before completing the transcription of that page, there should be a +PAGE,n in the first line of the file and no +PAGE at all at the end of the file. 3) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the first one and completes the page to the last entry, there should be no +PAGE,n in the first line of the file but there should be a +PAGE,(n+1) in the last line of the file. 4) If someone starts transcribing a page from an entry other than the first one and closes the file before completing the page to the last entry, there should be no +PAGE lines at all, either at the beginning or the end of the file. Is this a correct understanding? ( I am assuming that there is a maximum of one page per file - this understanding does not allow for there being a complete page, between two other +PAGE lines, in the middle of the file). Stephen Revd S H Carter [email protected] United Benefice of Coalbrookdale, Ironbridge and Little Wenlock http://www.rectorshouse.freeserve.co.uk/benefice/benframe.html