On 17/04/2015 22:35, Dee Byster-Graham wrote: > Congratulations to your son, Dave, a pleasant way to celebrate his birthday > :) > > Thanks also for the tip. > > Dee No problem Dee... I asked him what he wanted for his birthday and he just said "A surprise!"... ......so I bought him Petrol for the lawn mower!! Dave.

As it is my son's birthday this w/end Ancestry has FREE ACCESS to all immigration records. Ends Monday. http://www.ancestry.com/cs/us/april_immigration_campaign DH

FROM: LANDSCAPES OF ULSTER lower right hand corner is Esheleagh up the center, just north is Doon Esheleach is surronded by: on the north & west by Doon on the east and south by Kinran on the southwest corner by Knocknalosset Bud Flanagan, in Arizona

Doon (and Eshcleagh) townland is located in Clones Parish.  I am trying to determine the boundaries of the part that was/is Doon and the part that was/is Eshcleagh. I have looked at the 1832 Tithes for Doon and for Eshleah which show John Jackson was the lessor for each one.  There were no other sub lessors. I have looked at the 1835 OS maps 29 and 35 where the individual boundaries for Doon and for Eshcleagh are not shown.  One building is shown. Later maps such as the 1862 Griffiths map do not show separate boundaries for Doon and for Eshcleagh . The area of Doon and Eshcleagh seems to have increased by about 93 English acres between the 1832 and 1835.  The Tithe measure in 1832 was just over 336 Irish acres (about 542 English) and the area on the 1835 map was just over 635 acres. Does anyone know of any other maps or documents that would show the individual boundaries of Doon and of Eschleagh? Does anyone know generally which part was/is Doon and which part was/is Eschleagh e.g. north to south, or east to west? James

Then there was John of Gaunt, way back in the 14th century, who did much the same thing and what a mess that all turned out to be! Back in the world of we plebs, these days you can disinherit your children, as long as you give them a set small percentage which usually cannot be challenged in court except under certain circumstances, and give your money to charity or to whoever you wish to. So seeing the will of Shirley's ancestor still may not answer the question. Shirley, your ancestor was nothing if not virile! Eilish On 15/04/2015 12:52 AM, DSA2003 via wrote: > Until the law changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. > > Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject. An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title. The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son. In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. > > When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage. However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. > > Regards > > David Armstrong > > Maylands > Western Australia > > > > From: Shirley Smith via > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:11 PM > To: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com > Subject: FERMANAGH-GOLD Late marriage off topic > > I have just discovered I had an ancestor in England whose father was married, and the father was in love with another woman by whom he had twelve children before his wife died. He then married the mother of the 12 children. His son, my ancestor, used his mother's surname until his parents married, then he started using his father's surname. Does anybody know if these illegitimate children became legitimate when the parents married? I think it doesn't matter at this point but am just curious. I have had him listed under his father's name from the beginning but have put in a note that he used his mother's surname until the marriage. Makes me think of Leah and Rachel in the Bible except that the women were not sisters. Shirley > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > ================================== > > https://www.google.ie/ > ================================== > http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 14/04/2015 19:34, Ulster Ancestry wrote: > Yes Dave > > It can be very interesting if "testing" work. Every case is different > from the one before. > > Nothing delights me more than opening a new case file for the first time > > regards > > Robert =========================== Sooner you than me. I've often woken at 2 or 3 in the morning with the answer to a crossword puzzle that was bugging me... Gave up doing them! I'd be doing that regularly if I was doing inheritance stuff so not even going to try! DH

Until the law changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject. An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title. The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son. In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage. However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. Regards David Armstrong Maylands Western Australia From: Shirley Smith via Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:11 PM To: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com Subject: FERMANAGH-GOLD Late marriage off topic I have just discovered I had an ancestor in England whose father was married, and the father was in love with another woman by whom he had twelve children before his wife died. He then married the mother of the 12 children. His son, my ancestor, used his mother's surname until his parents married, then he started using his father's surname. Does anybody know if these illegitimate children became legitimate when the parents married? I think it doesn't matter at this point but am just curious. I have had him listed under his father's name from the beginning but have put in a note that he used his mother's surname until the marriage. Makes me think of Leah and Rachel in the Bible except that the women were not sisters. Shirley --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

Ah ha!  Here we have a fine example of "splitting heirs" ;-) Cliff. On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 3:21 PM, Caroline via <fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com> wrote: Sent from my iPad > On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Dave H via <fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > The Heir Hunter programme on BBC now and then is interesting in that > even today English Law and Scottish Law differs as to who can inherit. > > DH > > > >> On 14/04/2015 15:52, DSA2003 via wrote: >> Until the law  changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. >> >> Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject.  An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title.  The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son.  In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. >> >> When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage.  However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. >> >> Regards >> >> David Armstrong >> >> Maylands >> Western Australia > > > ================================== > > https://www.google.ie/ > ================================== > http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ================================== https://www.google.ie/ ================================== http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 14/04/2015 17:32, Ulster Ancestry via wrote: > Inheritance laws vary in every country and even from State to State in the USA and Australia. I do quite a bit of probate research work for legal firms and estate administrators throughout the English speaking World. > best regards > Robert > www.ulsterancestry.com I wouldn't know too much about it but the programme can be very interesting as it touches on these.. There was one case where guy in US qualified under US laws.. but as inheritance was in England he couldn't inherit. You see the likes of an adoptee qualifying or not depending on when he was born etc so it looks like a bit of a minefield, of which I know very little but it is very interesting. Couldn't/wouldn't even try to say yes or no to Shirley's question. You must find it very interesting! DH

Yes Dave It can be very interesting if "testing" work. Every case is different from the one before. Nothing delights me more than opening a new case file for the first time regards Robert www.ulsterancestry.com > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 19:16:37 +0100 > To: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: FERMANAGH-GOLD Late marriage off topic > From: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com > > > > On 14/04/2015 17:32, Ulster Ancestry via wrote: > > Inheritance laws vary in every country and even from State to State in the USA and Australia. I do quite a bit of probate research work for legal firms and estate administrators throughout the English speaking World. > > best regards > > Robert > > www.ulsterancestry.com > > > > I wouldn't know too much about it but the programme can be very > interesting as it touches on these.. > > There was one case where guy in US qualified under US laws.. but as > inheritance was in England he couldn't inherit. > > You see the likes of an adoptee qualifying or not depending on when he > was born etc so it looks like a bit of a minefield, of which I know very > little but it is very interesting. > > Couldn't/wouldn't even try to say yes or no to Shirley's question. You > must find it very interesting! > > DH > ================================== > > https://www.google.ie/ > ================================== > http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Heir Hunter programme on BBC now and then is interesting in that even today English Law and Scottish Law differs as to who can inherit. DH On 14/04/2015 15:52, DSA2003 via wrote: > Until the law changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. > > Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject. An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title. The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son. In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. > > When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage. However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. > > Regards > > David Armstrong > > Maylands > Western Australia

Inheritance laws vary in every country and even from State to State in the USA and Australia. I do quite a bit of probate research work for legal firms and estate administrators throughout the English speaking World. best regards Robert www.ulsterancestry.com > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:33:07 +0100 > To: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: FERMANAGH-GOLD Late marriage off topic > From: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com > > The Heir Hunter programme on BBC now and then is interesting in that > even today English Law and Scottish Law differs as to who can inherit. > > DH > > > > On 14/04/2015 15:52, DSA2003 via wrote: > > Until the law changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. > > > > Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject. An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title. The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son. In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. > > > > When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage. However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. > > > > Regards > > > > David Armstrong > > > > Maylands > > Western Australia > > > ================================== > > https://www.google.ie/ > ================================== > http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sent from my iPad > On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Dave H via <fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > The Heir Hunter programme on BBC now and then is interesting in that > even today English Law and Scottish Law differs as to who can inherit. > > DH > > > >> On 14/04/2015 15:52, DSA2003 via wrote: >> Until the law changed (ca. 20 or 30 years ago), not in England Shirley, but in Scotland, an illegitimate child was legitimated if his parents married later AND they had been free to do so at the time of his birth. >> >> Quite a few years ago now, there was an article in a family history magazine on this subject. An an example, the article used the case of a member of the nobility who had both a Scottish and an English title. The man first had an illegitimate son, then married the mother of his son, and after the marriage had a second son. In other words, he had two sons by the same woman, one before, and one after his marriage. >> >> When he died, the first son inherited the Scottish title because he’d been legitimated in Scottish law by his parents subsequent marriage. However, the English title went to the second son as he’d been born after the his parent’s marriage. >> >> Regards >> >> David Armstrong >> >> Maylands >> Western Australia > > > ================================== > > https://www.google.ie/ > ================================== > http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/placenames/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to FERMANAGH-GOLD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For that you'd need to check inheritance laws in England applicable at the time.. if they could inherit and did then they were legitimately recognized.. If there was a Will and they couldn't inherit then not legitimate. DH On 14/04/2015 15:11, Shirley Smith via wrote: > I have just discovered I had an ancestor in England whose father was married, and the father was in love with another woman by whom he had twelve children before his wife died. He then married the mother of the 12 children. His son, my ancestor, used his mother's surname until his parents married, then he started using his father's surname. Does anybody know if these illegitimate children became legitimate when the parents married? I think it doesn't matter at this point but am just curious. I have had him listed under his father's name from the beginning but have put in a note that he used his mother's surname until the marriage. Makes me think of Leah and Rachel in the Bible except that the women were not sisters. Shirley

I have just discovered I had an ancestor in England whose father was married, and the father was in love with another woman by whom he had twelve children before his wife died. He then married the mother of the 12 children. His son, my ancestor, used his mother's surname until his parents married, then he started using his father's surname. Does anybody know if these illegitimate children became legitimate when the parents married? I think it doesn't matter at this point but am just curious. I have had him listed under his father's name from the beginning but have put in a note that he used his mother's surname until the marriage. Makes me think of Leah and Rachel in the Bible except that the women were not sisters. Shirley

Hi Shirley I have run across a similar situation. A gentleman in a small village posted banns to marry his servant, but the marriage never occurred (perhaps his family intervened). Her illegitimate son was born a few months later and was baptised with her surname and only her named as parent. Around the same time, the man married a "more suitable" wife. Over the next 12 years, the servant had 3 more illegitimate children all baptised with her surname and with only her named as the parent. Four days after the birth of the fourth child, the gentleman wrote his will, in which he gave his "best bed" to the servant woman and one-fifth shares of his farm and entire estate to the servant woman and each of her "four natural and illegitimate children". All are named, with the servant woman's surname. The will doesn't mention any relation between the gentleman and the beneficiaries. The gentleman's legal wife (who'd had no children) died a few months after the will was written. She is not mentioned at all in the will. The gentleman died 2 years later. The servant's four children subsequently used the gentleman's surname and named him as their father on their marriage certificates. The gentleman had had a much earlier illegitimate child with another servant, who was baptised with his surname and both parents named, but he wasn't remembered in the will. So it may be that in this case and yours that the man was actually living with his preferred family, rather than his legal wife. Kathy Lowe -----Original Message----- From: Shirley Smith via Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 7:11 AM To: fermanagh-gold@rootsweb.com Subject: FERMANAGH-GOLD Late marriage off topic I have just discovered I had an ancestor in England whose father was married, and the father was in love with another woman by whom he had twelve children before his wife died. He then married the mother of the 12 children. His son, my ancestor, used his mother's surname until his parents married, then he started using his father's surname. Does anybody know if these illegitimate children became legitimate when the parents married? I think it doesn't matter at this point but am just curious. I have had him listed under his father's name from the beginning but have put in a note that he used his mother's surname until the marriage. Makes me think of Leah and Rachel in the Bible except that the women were not sisters. Shirley

Also thanks to George Amrstrong...just added some Births and Marriages from Newtownbutler Circuit Methodist records. Also available from the main page under New in April http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/

> My husband has a connection to the Cowan and McGregor families. His gt gt > grandmother was Catherine McGregor of Drumall, Derryvullan who had a sister > Sidney who married Robert Cowan in 1826. > Gerard McGregor who I think is a brother to Catherine and Sidney's father. Thanks Kerrie for your message, I have forwarded it to Pia, the Cowan researcher. Pia originally contacted me after finding my message re- a Alexander Elliott of Clonkeen marriage to a (possible) daughter of Mary Cowan of Clonkeen. She will send you a copy of the 1838 indenture/land agreement. It was drawn up in anticipation of a Edward Cowan's marriage. Kerrie do you have the a copy of the.... May 1829 Enniskillen Chronicle and Erne Packet ? It lists all persons who have lodged applications to entitle them to register their ₤10 & ₤20 Freeholds? Included in the 1829 list is a.... Phibbs McGregor of Drumall, with house & land at Drumall, valued at ₤10. A Phibbs McGrigor is also listed on the 2/4/1839, in a petition of landowners and inhabitants of Co. Fermanagh. Best wishes, Carole Elliott.

Just added Upper Erne Methodist Circuit Marriages from George Armstrong. You can see a direct link on the main IGP archives page under April Additions. http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ Thanks! Christina

Hi Carole My husband has a connection to the Cowan and McGregor families. His gt gt grandmother was Catherine McGregor of Drumall, Derryvullan who had a sister Sidney who married Robert Cowan in 1826. They lived at Clonkeen and at least one of their sons came to Australia and on arrival he said he had a cousin or relative (can't remember just which at the moment) named Richard Cowan. I've collected a few bits and pieces on the Cowans in Ireland and would be very interested in the 1838 indenture particularly the reference to Gerard McGregor who I think is a brother to Catherine and Sidney's father. Regards Kerrie Far North Coast NSW Subject: FERMANAGH-GOLD Cowan, McGregor, Smyth and Elliott. Anyone out there with a connection to the Cowan family of Clonkeen/Glenkeen? I have been sent an 1838 indenture, drawn up at the time of a proposed marriage, between a Cowan and a Elliott. This indenture also refers to the 1770 Archdale lease, renewable forever, of land at Clonkeen, to the Cowan family. Other names in the identure mentioned are.... Gerard/Gerald McGregor, John Smyth of Pettigoe and William Elliott. If you have a connection to Clonkeen or the Cowan family or any of the names mentioned, please contact me. Thanks, Carole E.