At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: >Hi Pbuddyf, > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, >Portugal. ect. > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the >Irish Genes. did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired groups as they moved through europe. however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

The Celtic background is dealt with quite neatly in "The Pagan Celts" by A. Ross. ISBN 0-7134552-7-6, published by Batsford in 1970 and updated in 1986. The chapter headings (just abbreviated slightly) are Early Celtic World Orgnaization of Celtic Society Dwellings, Denence and Warfare Stock, Crops and Food Production Social Background of Celtic Life Law, Learning and Literature The World of the Spirit Art and Adornment Well illustrated in the 1986 edition. I enjoyed it very much. Covers about 700 BC to 500 AD. Crawford. On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Michael Cassidy wrote: > At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: > >Hi Pbuddyf, > > > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the > >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that > >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian > >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are > >unbelievably similiar to Irish ones. > > Maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. > "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon

Hi Michael, You must have taken me up wrong. My position was not "that dark hair and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast." My position was two fold: 1) That, yes, some sailors survived the armada sinking and had children in Ireland. 2) that your assertion that "The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes in some Irish come from the spanish has been debunked." is "not entirely true." There is documentary evidence for point 1. As for point 2. There have been spanish (as well as other peoples) here since pre christian times. It is inconceivable that "some" Irish are not descended from these and that "some" of them have a dark complexion from their ancestors, just as some would have inherited their fair complexions from the galician spanish peoples who sailed to Ireland in pre Patrick times if not pre christian times. Also I pointed out that very few Irish are red haired, and that the celts were thought to be dark. I also pointed out "There was however some contact between Spaniards, Portuguese and North Africans over many hundreds of years prior to that." The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the Irish race is the result of many peoples mixing together over the millenia and that "some" Irish had to have inherited their individual" dark complexion" from the spanish. Just as some had to have inherited their individual "dark complexion" from the North Africans.I also pointed out that I knew a particular family (two groups) who are documented to be directly descended from ONE Spanish Armada Survivor and that they have most definitely retained the surname, and unmistakable spanish traits. I'm sure many Irish have inherited dark complexions from African Americans but to claim that that is the only source of dark complexions in Irish people is, it seems to me, extremely unlikely. Our written and oral histories talk of "fir ghoirm" and people of dark complexion for hundreds of years if not thousands of years prior to the rediscovery of america. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:40 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: >Hi Pbuddyf, > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, >Portugal. ect. > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the >Irish Genes. did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired groups as they moved through europe. however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

My Irish ancestors came over from Fermanagh to USA in 1830, James & Jane (Keys) Robinson. His son, my line, had red hair and beard, so I'm assuming he (or Jane Keys, her mother was a Johnston) did too. Consequently, all us Robinsons in this line have red/auburn hair, including me.. don't know where it came from, and those are English sounding surnames, so don't know about that either! I always just assumed many irish did have red hair, it's what you always hear and it's true in my family anyway. Debra (Robinson) Short ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casey <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:18 AM Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair > Hi Michael, > > You must have taken me up wrong. > > My position was not "that dark hair and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish > sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast." > > My position was two fold: > 1) That, yes, some sailors survived the armada sinking and had children in > Ireland. > 2) that your assertion that "The myth that the trait of black hair and dark > eyes in some Irish come from the spanish has been debunked." is "not > entirely true." > > There is documentary evidence for point 1. > > As for point 2. There have been spanish (as well as other peoples) here > since pre christian times. It is inconceivable that "some" Irish are not > descended from these and that "some" of them have a dark complexion from > their ancestors, just as some would have inherited their fair complexions > from the galician spanish peoples who sailed to Ireland in pre Patrick times > if not pre christian times. Also I pointed out that very few Irish are red > haired, and that the celts were thought to be dark. I also pointed out > "There was however some contact between Spaniards, Portuguese and North > Africans over many hundreds of years prior to that." > > The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the Irish race is the > result of many peoples mixing together over the millenia and that "some" > Irish had to have inherited their individual" dark complexion" from the > spanish. Just as some had to have inherited their individual "dark > complexion" from the North Africans.I also pointed out that I knew a > particular family (two groups) who are documented to be directly descended > from ONE Spanish Armada Survivor and that they have most definitely retained > the surname, and unmistakable spanish traits. > > I'm sure many Irish have inherited dark complexions from African Americans > but to claim that that is the only source of dark complexions in Irish > people is, it seems to me, extremely unlikely. Our written and oral > histories talk of "fir ghoirm" and people of dark complexion for hundreds of > years if not thousands of years prior to the rediscovery of america. > > Regards > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:40 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair > > > At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: > >Hi Pbuddyf, > > > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the > >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that > >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian > >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are > >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. > > maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. > > > >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > > > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. > >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, > >Portugal. ect. > > > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the > >Irish Genes. > > > did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or > did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark > haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? > > communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and > black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired > groups as they moved through europe. > > however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark > hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold > waters off the irish coast. > > m > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk > http://www.panix.com/~cassidy > > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >