Hello everyone. I would appreciate any help in finding some information about my G G Grandfather,James ARMSTRONG,a farmer and a native of Clones County, Fermananagh. They had a son also named James ARMSTRONG (My g grandfather) born 6 February 1808 who married Elizabeth Davis and came from Killishanabra, County Cavan, Ireland.They migrated to Australia in1841 with their five children. Allan

Does anyone have any information on MUSGRAVES prior to 1860? - particularly Charles MUSGRAVE (saddler) who married Anne LOVE before 1812. Charles and Anne MUSGRAVE had both died by 1849. They had children who immigrated to Australia at various times from the 1820's to 1860. I believe Charles had other brothers and sisters in Tyrone, possibly including a James and Elizabeth. The names: Omagh, Killesher, Dromore, Gortmore, Killisher, Mahenny, Ivinstown and Inneskillen appear on marriage and death certificates of the following children who came to New South Wales, Australia: Charles MUSGRAVE jnr (later married Matilda OSBORNE from Northern Ireland) John MUSGRAVE of Omagh and his wife Eliza (nee WALLACE) married in Fermanagh William Love MUSGRAVE farmer of Omagh and his wife Ann Jane (WALLACE) married Killesher, Fermanagh Thomas MUSGRAVE (later married Jane DOWEY) Jane MUSGRAVE dairymaid (later married John LINDSAY from Northern Ireland) Thanks, Robyn Musgrave

Looking for ancestors of Michael D'Arcy (aka Darcy) and Susanna Magee Name:Michael D'Arcy Born:Abt 1813, Tyrone, Ireland Married:4 November 1838, Blackbog, Magheraculmoney (Ederny), Fermanagh Died:26 July 1856, Yarrandi, Scone, NSW Burial: 28 July 1856, Old Catholic Churchyard Kingdom Street Scone. Father:Michael D'Arcy Mother:Mary Stars Wife:Susanna Magee Born:Abt 1807, Co Fermanagh, Ireland Died:6 December 1894, Mount Moobi, NSW Father:Larry Magee Mother:Catherine ??? CHILDREN 1 Name:Hugh Patrick D'Arcy Born:6 October 1841, Co Fermanagh, Ireland Married:Mary Anne Tripp, 1872, Scone, NSW Died:10 July 1927, Mount Mooby, NSW 2 Name:Catherine D'Arcy Born:24 May 1843, Wybong, NSW Married:William Hatton,1893 Died:15 September 1914, Gunnedah, NSW Other Spouses: George Newcombe, Thomas Roworth 3 Name:Michael Augustus D'Arcy Born:20 June 1845, Wybong,NSW Married:Elizabeth Ann Coffey, 30 October 1870, Scone,NSW Died:12 July 1919, Werris Creek,NSW 4 Name:Francis D'Arcy Born:10 December 1846, Wybong, NSW Married:Elizabeth Duigan, 5 May 1884, Richmond, Vic Died:6 November 1888, Richmond, Vic 5 Name:John D'Arcy Born:23 October 1848, Wybong, NSW Died:1917, Scone, NSW 6 Name:James Matthias D'Arcy Born:4 June 1851, Merton, NSW Married:Sarah A Thompson, 1879 Died:1943 _________________________________________________________ Paul McLennan e-mail: 'hdfi026@ibm.com' Searching families: McLennan, Matheson, Wright, D'Arcy, Hackett

Hello all: Does anyone know the name(s) of any magazine(s) published for teachers in Ireland in the 1960s? I am trying to find an article that supposedly appeared in one, about a family from Fermanagh that had several generations of teachers, from the penal times down to today. I'd like to check in libraries, but thought it would be easier if I had the names of some magazines first. Thanks, Janet C-S

Janet I am a Frances and have a Francis in every generation as far back as I have researched so I tend to notice everything said about the name. (And if I had a dollar for every idiot who's ever mentioned 'Francis the Talking Mule' I'd be stupendously wealthy). I've never come across Fras. as an abbreviation. I have seen Fraser shortened like that, but only once. Fran Higham Caiside@aol.com wrote: > Hello all: > I recently found a name I assume to be of a man, written as Fras. Cassidy. Am > I safe to assume this is an abbreviation for Frances? > > Janet C-S >

i'm researching the ancestors of thomas kennedy. he married esther (last name unknown) their first child, john kennedy was born in ireland abt 1839.they moved to queens county, new brunswick, canada in 1841. their children born in new brunswick were: thomas, robert, william, claude , augusts , margaret, i have searched the 1821 census of fermamagh county but found nothing that was any help to me.( thomas' death record states that he was born in fermanagh in 1820) love to hear from anyone doing a kennedy search county fermanagh in ireland. thanks daryll kennedy

I made a number of posts yesterday, most posts were bcc'd to a number of lists. As a result of my posts, my mailbox was 'hopping' this morning so to speak... Many people thanked me for what I had to say, the posts I made..and then many others have asked me questions. Some people had simply hit their reply to author and so I knew which lists they had picked up my posts on.....others had written new messages, and I don't know where they came from So, this is another post to all those lists again. I would like to thank everyone who complimented my posts.....I would be sitting here for the next few days if I replied to each one individually. I have answered as many questions as I can today, for those who asked, and I will gradually get to the others over the next week or so. If I see that someone has asked me a question and I think the answer would benefit more than one person I will reply to that as a post to the newsgroups.....I hope no one will mind that. Jane

Someone posted this site on another list. I thought I'd pass it on. It tells the history of emigration from Ulster, including pre-Famine emigration, as well as the effect of the Famine on Ulster. Very interesting and informative. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/emigration/ Janet C-S

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for opinions on Fras. Majority seem to think it stands for Francis, though one person suggested Frasier, which is also a possibility. Some also suggested it might stand for "Fathers" or "Friars", but since this is a list of individuals, and since the same list also identified several other persons as being a "popish priest," I think it is more likely to be a personal name. Thanks, everyone! Janet C-S

In a message dated 99-02-17 14:05:07 EST, Caiside@aol.com writes: << Also can someone tell me, is Phelim translated as Phillip? >> Not really... it is already anglicised... it is spelled (modernly) as Fedlimid... sometimes pronounced as Fell-LIMM-mee Philip in Irish is Philib or Filib or just Philip, depends on who and when you are talking to. TTFN Phil

Thanks everyone. I did mistype on that, I know that Francis is male and Frances is female, but wanted confirmation on the abbreviation of Fras., as it is not one I have come across before. Also can someone tell me, is Phelim translated as Phillip? Janet

Hello all: I recently found a name I assume to be of a man, written as Fras. Cassidy. Am I safe to assume this is an abbreviation for Frances? Janet C-S

I would appreciate it if no one asks me if any information on anything I have listed here is available outside Ireland. I honestly don't know what has or has not been copied by LDS centres or anyone..... I only know about Dublin. Also, wills will really only be of any use to those whose families had money....in the abstracts one does see various yeomen and others mentioned as witnesses..but ordinary everyday people did not normally make wills. ---------------------------------------- For a will to achieve legality it has to be 'proven' by a Probate court. Before 1858 Probate admin was the responsibility of the Church of Ireland and wills were either proven in Armagh or in a Consistorial or Dioscescan court in each Diocese. The Perogative Court (Armagh) was responsible for proving the wills of paoeple whose property was within 2 + dioceses and the propery in the 2nd diocese had to be valued at more than five pounds. A civil probate court system was established in 1857, and this is made up of a Principle registry & 11 probate districts. Listed below are those districts. Now, the majority of wills were destroyed in the Fire in the Four courts in 1922. What has been left are indices for some periods for each district, some which survived the fire....there are also teh annual calendars of wills and administrations produced by the probate court since 1858, each entry here only included the name, address & occupation of teh deceased, date & place of death and to whom probate was granted. A composite index to the calandars for the years 1858-1877 are held in the Nat Archives, Dublin. Those for Northern Ireland from 1918 are held in the PRONI Belfast. As are a complete set of calandars for the whole of Ireland to 1917. Those wills which survived are indexed in a card system in the Nat Archives of ireland here in Dublin. A number of wills had been abstracted prior to destruction, post destruction efforts were made to try and replace those lost working with solicitors, families, anyone who would have had copies. The lists of what remains to be searched for information on wills, genealogists who abstracted wills, where they may have been published is quite long...and I will work though where what is slowly over the next while. Armagh Probate District takes in Co. Louth; Co. Armagh; Co. Fermanagh; Co. Monaghan and part of Co. Tyrone Belfast Probate District: takes in Co. Down; Co. Antrim Londonderry Probate District: takes in Co. Londonderry (Derry); Co. Donegal and part of Co. Tyrone. Ballina Probate District: Takes in part of Co. Leitrim; Co. Sligo; Co. Mayo Cavan Probate District: takes in Co. Cavan; Co. Longford and part of Co. Leitrim Dublin Probate District: takes in Co. Dublin; Co. Wicklow; Co. Kildare and Co. Meath Mullingar Probate District: takes in Co. Westmeath and Co. Offaly (King’s County) Tuam Probate district: takes in Co. Galway and Co. Roscommon Kilkenny Probate District: takes in Co.Kilkenny; Co. Carlow; Co. Laois Waterford Probate District: takes in Co. Wexford, Co. Waterford; and part of Co. Tipperary Limerick Probate District: takes in Co. Limerick and part of Co. Tipperary Cork Probate district: takes in Co. Cork and Co. Kerry

Originally posted to Ireland & Genire Lists Date: 11 July 1998 11:59 Subject: From Ireland - but you don't know where - Advice. >Your ancestors came fom Ireland but you really haven't got a clue what >part.....there are a few things you need to *forget* in order to save >yourselves years of work. > >First of all...the BMD registers began in 1864. Not many actually >registered...but looking through these gives you some clues. Forget the >fact that your particular ancestors arrived whereever it was prior to this >date. Forget the Christian names you are looking for and concentrate on >the surname. > >Get the BMD registers for the year 1864......and read through the >surnames...and the references to where these people were registered. Take >every person of that surname and write the name down and the registration >district. > >Go to the 1880 registers...and do the same thing. > >Put the whole lot into an excel programme and sort by registration >district. You will begin to see 'clusters' of the name in various >counties......and these places are where you begin your Parish register >search...and the Griffiths and the Tithe books........and everything else >you can lay your hands on. > >Once you think you have something from the Parish registers find a person >willing to check the current local telephone directory, who knows the >area......and try to find more clusters or people located in the place you >want. > >Buy yourselves Irish OS maps.....the current Discovery series is quite >good. the only problem is that these maps do not necessarily cover a full >county. You may need to get four maps, each one covering bits of three or >four counties......these cost four pounds and twenty pence in Ireland. > > I don't know where you can get them outside Ireland so please don't anyone >ask me. > >The maps are not indexed..you will need to read through each quadrat one by >one. Cemeteries in any area are marked on some counties and not on others. > Some cemeteries have been transcribed and others not. Some cemeteries in >this country will never be transcribed because they are in such appalling >state that you can't even see one stone - just bumps in the ground. > >You'll never get anywhere by just collecting names from whatever part of >the counry they occur in, or someone gives you a list of. But a >combination of these will save you much frustration. > >Jane > >

The following applies to those of any religious denomination in Ireland Originally to genire & Ireland lists Date: 14 August 1998 15:09 Subject: Priests and Some facts for you to think about >I met a Parish Priest in west Cork recently and we got to talking about >what he does and about the people who search for their relatives. > >It was a Friday night when I first met him, when I met him on the Sunday he >was covering five Parishes...he gets four Sundays in five off...free time - >that's all. Other than that he works 6 days a week and is on call 24 hours >a day. > >Now, if you can all visualise a big circle, with a triangle in the >middle...the three angles (corners) of the triangle do not actually touch >the circle itself..it takes one to one and a half hours to drive along >those roads from any angle of that triangle to the other....the Priest has >to cover the whole area. He can spend the whole day and night on the road, >if enough people were dying....think of the milage and petrol, and the >hours involved. > >As i said we spoke of the searchers....someone sent him a letter last year >asking for copies of the baptismal certificates of 20 people. She did not >give townlands.just the names and she enclosed the equivalent of ten Irish >pounds........he had spent most of the first day I met him with some >Americans...and they shook hands and said thanks when he was finished. > >We spoke of the fact that he will probably be the last Parish Priest in the >Parish...not enough young men entering the Church today. > >For these people, when a parishoner goes into hospital they visit them, >whether the hospital is located in their town...or 60 miles away.....they >visit people all day every day in their homes, those who are too old or >infirm to get out and who need to talk to their priests. > >Our currency is based on 100 pennies in one pound. >Genealogists in this country charge anything from eight pounds fifty per >hour upwards. A litre of petrol costs from 59-79 pence, depending on >quality and area you are in. A babysitter charges anything from three >pounds and fifty pence per hour (teenagers), a Doctor charges from twelve - >twenty five pounds per surgery visit (again depending on locality) call a >plumber/tradesman to your house and he will charge you from twenty five to >thrity five pounds just to call to the house..doesn't matter if he lives >down the road. Also, note here...the genealogist and the plumber are >taxed...we have a number of taxbands, paying anything from around 21 pence >in the pound to about 56. My figures aren't accurate here. The babysitter >pays no tax. > >A sliced pan (bread) costs anything from fifty pence up, a pint of guiness >from one pound fifty to two pounds (depending on area - though they say >there is no price fixing <g>). A small car will cost from twelve thousand >pounds to buy, Insurance for a year will cost from four-five hundred pounds >up depending on age, and record. It can go up to over one thousand pounds > >Enough? So, the Church does not ask for money for time the Priest gives to >any of you when you come searching.....I've seen so many complaints where >people have sent money to priests and vicars....but searching records is >not what they studied for...how many of you actually realise how long it >takes to read through the record books? How long it takes to sit and write >out all these names and then a nice letter to go with it. If one of you >sends a Priest twenty five US dollars..then when the bank has charged >commission it usually works out at about sixteen pounds.....maybe a bit >more....if I have a Mass said for any reason I will give the Priest a >minimum of five-ten pounds, I don't know what people pay for Baptisms and >weddings nowadays but the last wedding I was at there were a number of >Priests and each one was given about twenty pounds, the main celebrant got >more. That was a few years ago. This money does not 'go into their >pockets' to the best of my knowledge, but to a combined fund....Priests are >then paid salaries and any money donated by people is used to pay the >salaries of Priest in poorer parishes and the upkeep of churches.....and >help for those Parishhoners who are needy. Many of you in America of >different religions pay a percentage of your salary to the church? Doesn't >work that way here. There are no 'fixed' amounts. We have collections in >each Parish on a sunday...people are advised that they could donate such >and such......but nobody is keeping tabs. > >I've commented before on peoples manners...and it was only when I began to >realise that people were rude that I could see that the Priests and Vicars >have probably dealt with searchers all their lives....and the majority of >them probably have not been appreciated by those they did things for. I've >said that those who do appreciate what goes in to all this have probably >lost out because of others who went before them. Also, in years gone by >the Priests had more time, because there were always at least two priests >to these Parishes. > >Please, please understand what it is these people do.....and when they put >themselves out for any of you please for the sake of those that will >follow thank them, even if you have originally sent them money. it would >be nice if you were to take the costs I have outlayed above into >consideration when you do ask them to do something for you........they will >be giving you a few hours of their time at least. > >Jane

I have lost the first part of this post > >Abigail: Deborah (because ot the similarity of their respective diminutives >Abbie and Debbie and of Gubbie the diminutive of the Irish Gobnet) >Jane: Joan, Jean (all being rendered Johanna in Latin) >Alice: Ellen (probably due to the diminutive Eily for both the Irish names >Eilish and Eileen) >Grizell: Grace (In Ulster) >Susan: Johanna (as renderings of the Irish Siobhán) >Giles: Cecily, Cecilia, Celia, Julia (as renderings of the Irish Sheelagh) >Hannah: Honora, Johanna >Judith: Julia (perhaps due to the simillarity of their diminutives Judy and >julie) > >The fifth group of Irish Christian names is that used as the Irish or >English equivalents of one another, but not necessarily being a correct >translation of such names: > >Irish: English >Brian: Bernard, Barnabas (Barney) >Diarmaid (Dermot): Jeremiah, Darby, Demetrius >Tiernan: Terence >Teige: Thaddeus (Thady) >Morrogh: Morgan >Aodh : Hugh, Edie >Tirlogh: Terence >Eoghain: Owen, Eugene >Cormac: Charles >Cathal: Charles >Eamonn: Edmond, Edward, Aimon >Conchobar: Connor, Cornelius, Constantine >Donogh: denis, Donat >Dhonal: Daniel, Donald >Eileen: Ellen, Helen, Eleanor >Eilish: Alice >Siobhán: johanna, Susan, Jane >Sheelagh: Cecilia, Cecily, Giles, Sheila, celia, Julia >Oonagh: Una, WInifred. > >The correct or standard translation of such Irish names as Sean-John; >Seamus- James etc., can be found in a good Irish-English lexicon. > >Until the end of the mid 18thC it was unusual for a child to receivemore >than one Christian name in Ireland..although threr were some standard >favourite combinations such as Ann Jane, Mary Anne. Even in the 19thC the >practise of giving a second christian name was slowly adopted....starting >with the richer gentry. > >Favourite Catholic Christian names were: John, Patrick, James, Denis, >William, Darby, Dermot, daniel, Cornelius, Henry, Timothy, Thomas, Michael, >Jeremiah, Bartholomew, Brain, Laurence, Thady, Terence, Owen, Martin, >Mathias, David and Jospeh for boyus. Dominick enjoyed vogue in the >17thC..Columb, Malachy, Miles, Felix, Ambrose and Stanislaus were less >commonly used. Aloysius is rare before the 19thC. > >For girls: >Mary, Catherine, Bridget, Honora, Margaret, Ellen, Anastasia, Johanna, >Judith, Julia, Rosanna, Maryanne, ELizabeth and Jane. Less common were >Magdalen Monica and Theresa. Marcella is found in Ireland but is rare in >England. > >Protestants were more varied: >Arthur, John, Henry, James, William, Frederick, George, Edward, Richard, >Charles, Philip, Oliver, Jonathan, Anthony, Andrew, Simon, Marmaduke and >Sstephen. They also used old testament names which were rarely used by >Catholics such as Abraham, Jacob, Moses, isaac , Samuel, joshua, Gamaliel. > >Favourite Protestant girls names seem to have been: >Mary, Sarah, ELizabeth, Eleanor, Lucy, catherine, Susanna, Hannah, >Margaret, Jane, Isabella, Frances and Alice. Less frequently: Barbara, >Gertrude, Dorothea, Charlote, Diana, Rebecca, Lydia , race, Phoebe, >Henrietta, Lettice, Ursula, Penelope, Esther and Heather. > >The name Austin (for Augustine) was common in the Catholic peasantry in >Connaught but was uncommon elsewhere. Lettice was widespread amongst >Protestant families in Cavan. Lancelot in Monaghan. > >Jasper and Horatio had a vogue in Cork: Bernard and Sylvester in Cavan: >Hyacinth in Galway: Ignatius and Xaverius were common amongst Catholics in >Mayo and Galway, also Dominick. Florence was used as a boys name amongst >the Catholics in Cork....Moses, usually a name used by Protestants was a >popular Catholic name in Wexford. >

My apologies to those of you who may receive the posts I make today from a number of lists, or who have seen some of these posts in the past.... To those of you who have never seen any of these..I hope some of you will find something in them to suit your needs. Please hit your delete icon.....and not me Jane :-)

Jane, Thank you so much for the information. Everyone should want as much information as they can get before they go to Ireland or any country for that matter. Customs differ and no one wants to feel really dumb because thy didn't know the rules. You have provided a good service. Thanks again, from one of Scots and Irish decent. Joyce

In a message dated 2/16/99 7:36:56 AM, tullamore@sci.net.au wrote: <<Can anyone advise if this might be the case and if there are mailing lists for those Counties. >> According to the Book of Ulster Surnames, Brennan is found in Monaghan and Fermanagh. But there are also unrelated branches of the name in Galway, Kerry, Westmeath and Roscommon. That's a lot of territory to search without better clues. Do you have any idea where yours came from? You are probably better served trying to find out what county they came from through sources in the new country first--Australia? judging from your email. Good luck, Janet C-S

I've been subscribed to this list and have seen no reference to my BRENNAN (BRANNAN) family. Although they lived for a generation near Glasgow before emigrating to Australia in 1863, I have yet to trace a birthplace in Ireland, but have an idea they may have been more likely from Counties Sligo or Roscommon. Can anyone advise if this might be the case and if there are mailing lists for those Counties. Regards, Terence Brennan Batemans Bay, NSW