List and Bill, I think the point is that there has been quite extensive communication between numerous diverse races and cultures in Ireland for around 5000 years, all of whom would have surely added to the physical gene pool and also to what I call "the cultural gene pool." There were people living in my town land over 5000 years ago. This was long before the celts came. The celts may have become the dominant culture but the other peoples did not disappear. In fact the settlement pattern of those pre celtic people remains virtually unchanged in a lot of rural Ireland until this very day. They were a peaceful people living in small family homesteads (The only european race of the time to do so, Other european peoples lived in larger groups for protection). The remains of those homesteads still dot the country side and for example in my townland there is one 3000 to 5000 year old home stead for each present home stead. Our small farm has one our neighbours and their neighbours have one. Prof Brendan Caulfield of UCG has done a lot of work on this and feels that those people may have influenced the modern Irish even more than the celts. It is nice to think that a family (Maybe my ancestors)have lived and farmed the same plot of land for over 3000 years. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Roland & Rosemary Golden [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 10:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Black Irish Listers: Having read a numer of e-mails regading the proper hair color of the Irish, I'd like to arrogantly and pompously remind the writers who appear to be in the heat of ire that the accepted root stock for the "Native Irish" is (are?) Celtic. These people migrated from eastern Europe, maybe as far east as the Indus River. Who Knows? In any case they were believed to be fair of skin and red of locks. In New Testament times Turkey was known as Galatia (sic), another spelling for Gaul or Celt. and a country that is near the Indus and Danube Rivers. There are tribes located in central Turkey who are light of skin and red of hair even today. There are some red headed Spanish in the Northwest of Spain. If you are climbing your family tree and hair and freckles are important to you, so be it, that is your business (unless you are also a social or cultural anthropologist). Lets just be nice and civil to one an other, please. Very Sincerly, Bill Golden, [email protected] ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Does anyone have John Cunninghams's E Mail address in Belleek ? Appreciate the response.

Michael, I have seen arguments in both directions on this subject but I have yet to see anyone arrogant enough to say from his high horse in the 21st century that there has NEVER been ANY intermarriage / intermingling between the the Irish and the Spanish. I don't think that would be the sole source of black hair - the Romans too certainly had the technical competence to arrive in Ireland. As they were able to sail and/or galley over to England, there's no reason they couldn't go to Ireland too. I have no proof they were there, but it was within there technical capacities. Let's not forget either that the Roman Legions were full of conquered peoples. Most of us on these lists have been humbled by the fact that we're trying to climb the branches our family trees and have run into brickwalls trying to find trace of an ancestor, knowing their name and where they supposedly came from. I wouldn't be so categorical. Tom Michael Cassidy <[email protected]> sur 26/03/2001 15:54:43 Pour : [email protected] cc : Objet : Re: Spainards in Ireland/Black Irish At 6:03 PM -0500 3/25/01, Mary McGinnis wrote: >The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article >on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on >the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled >"O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish >were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from the spanish has been debunked. The only true Black Irish are descendants of inter-marriage between African-Americans and Irish. If you go into the 1870 NYC census you'll find many marriages of Blacks and Irish; and this is only a few years after the Draft Riots. regards m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy ============================== Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp Search over 2500 databases with one easy query!

Hi Phil, You are correct. Ireland has had North African, Iberian, Scandanavian, British and European people, both as invaders and invitees, (eg in the Monasteries) over the last 2000 years and surely before that. As for redhaired people, I believe we actually have less than the average for other Northern European Countries. Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Spainards in Ireland/Black Irish How does intermarriage between blacks and Irish in America affect dark hair colour over in Ireland? The Irish had black hair long before the 1500's. Neither the intermarriage of races nor even the Spanish are of sufficient explanation. The "Black Irish" is probably an urban legend of sorts as the most of Europe have mixed roots (pun not intended) and gives rise to different hair colours and features. My consternation is the fact that people in my area of the world keep saying that natural Irish hair color is red. When I was there the last few times in Ireland, I only saw two red-haired people. The most I saw was the dark colored (brown and black) and then the various blondes. So "Black Irish" has no real meaning by way of race. The only topic I have never really seen is a discussion of how much the Dutch (Friesland and Holland) merchant traders had an effect on the culture in Ireland. They were there in the early 1500's. I have a few in my tree and I believe they reached Fermanagh a couple of times. Regards, Phil ============================== Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp Search over 2500 databases with one easy query!

Thomas, I agree wholeheartedly. There was some migration of Romans from Britain to Ireland. There was no "Official" Roman incursion but some Roman farmers travelled and settled in Meath..(I'm sure there were other places as well. There is archeological evidence of a roman Homestead quite close to Tara. Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Ref. : Re: Spaniards in Ireland/Black Irish Michael, I have seen arguments in both directions on this subject but I have yet to see anyone arrogant enough to say from his high horse in the 21st century that there has NEVER been ANY intermarriage / intermingling between the the Irish and the Spanish. I don't think that would be the sole source of black hair - the Romans too certainly had the technical competence to arrive in Ireland. As they were able to sail and/or galley over to England, there's no reason they couldn't go to Ireland too. I have no proof they were there, but it was within there technical capacities. Let's not forget either that the Roman Legions were full of conquered peoples. Most of us on these lists have been humbled by the fact that we're trying to climb the branches our family trees and have run into brickwalls trying to find trace of an ancestor, knowing their name and where they supposedly came from. I wouldn't be so categorical. Tom Michael Cassidy <[email protected]> sur 26/03/2001 15:54:43 Pour : [email protected] cc : Objet : Re: Spainards in Ireland/Black Irish At 6:03 PM -0500 3/25/01, Mary McGinnis wrote: >The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article >on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on >the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled >"O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish >were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from the spanish has been debunked. The only true Black Irish are descendants of inter-marriage between African-Americans and Irish. If you go into the 1870 NYC census you'll find many marriages of Blacks and Irish; and this is only a few years after the Draft Riots. regards m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy ============================== Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp Search over 2500 databases with one easy query! ============================== Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2

Michael, That is not entirely true. As I have posted on this list before, there are, and I personally know them, descendents of sailors from the Spanish Armada still living in the North west. There is quite a body of evidence, besides the oral records, to support the two groups I know. In their cases the Black hair and dark eyes would appear to come from their spanish ancestors. There was virtually no contact between sub-saharan africans and Irish prior to the time of the Armada and for some considerable time afterwards. There was however some contact between Spaniards, Portuguese and North Africans over many hundreds of years prior to that. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 5:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Spainards in Ireland/Black Irish At 6:03 PM -0500 3/25/01, Mary McGinnis wrote: >The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article >on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on >the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled >"O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish >were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from the spanish has been debunked. The only true Black Irish are descendants of inter-marriage between African-Americans and Irish. If you go into the 1870 NYC census you'll find many marriages of Blacks and Irish; and this is only a few years after the Draft Riots. regards m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy ============================== Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp Search over 2500 databases with one easy query!

Here's a web site which discusses The Myth of the Black irish in detail: http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/ Janet C-S

I've been reading the info posted with much delight. My Italian genepool gave me blonde hair and blue eyes from my father....which overrode my mother's Irish side which could have given me black hair and brown eyes........The most fun I'm having searching my roots (which are now really gray) is in finding how diversified we all are.....which, in that regard, really makes us all alike.........happy hunting ! Chris

At 5:25 PM +0200 3/26/01, [email protected] wrote: > Michael, > > I have seen arguments in both directions on this subject but I have >yet to see anyone arrogant enough to say from his high horse in the 21st >century that there has NEVER been ANY intermarriage / intermingling >between the the Irish and the Spanish. Actually if you read the post I never said the there were no intermarriage between Irish the Spanish; though I'd be real surprised considering the temperture of the water that many sailors survived the sinking. Definately, no where near enough to explain black hair and eyes in Ireland, IF in fact the Irish/Celtics were as fair as you all are presuming. At 10:24 AM -0500 3/26/01, [email protected] wrote: >How does intermarriage between blacks and Irish in America affect dark hair >colour over in Ireland? The Irish had black hair long before the 1500's. >Neither the intermarriage of races nor even the Spanish are of sufficient >explanation. Actually, if I presume anything its that black hair and eyes are pretty much spread through all groups of humans; and as a dominate trait will frequently appear. In other words there is no need to explain dark hair and eyes they are normal. My understanding is that there were several migrations of Celtics into Europe and some going through the north of Africa. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

Listers: Having read a numer of e-mails regading the proper hair color of the Irish, I'd like to arrogantly and pompously remind the writers who appear to be in the heat of ire that the accepted root stock for the "Native Irish" is (are?) Celtic. These people migrated from eastern Europe, maybe as far east as the Indus River. Who Knows? In any case they were believed to be fair of skin and red of locks. In New Testament times Turkey was known as Galatia (sic), another spelling for Gaul or Celt. and a country that is near the Indus and Danube Rivers. There are tribes located in central Turkey who are light of skin and red of hair even today. There are some red headed Spanish in the Northwest of Spain. If you are climbing your family tree and hair and freckles are important to you, so be it, that is your business (unless you are also a social or cultural anthropologist). Lets just be nice and civil to one an other, please. Very Sincerly, Bill Golden, [email protected]

List and Michael: When one speaks of the Black Irish, and Spaniards, and Afro-Americans I am surprised that no mention of the 12,000 or so Italiens, members of Garibaldi's defeated Army, who came to Ireland in the late 1800's at the request of the British Government. This little noted migration, which was told on American Public Television and produced by The BBC and Telefeis Eirean (sic), originated in a valley that runs north from Naples to Rome. Oddly it was entitled North of Naples,South of Rome. Italiens have darker skin and Blacker hair than the Celtic Irish, if I'm not mistaken. In any case it is an interesting story, which is well told. It is worth pestering your local PBS station to show it. I saw it on Ch 36 out of Providence, RI. Just a thought! Watching this show is like sex. It is ok to do, but sinful if you enjoy it! Sincerely, Bill Golden, [email protected] Michael Cassidy wrote: > At 6:03 PM -0500 3/25/01, Mary McGinnis wrote: > >The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article > >on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on > >the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled > >"O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish > >were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. > > The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from > the spanish has been debunked. The only true Black Irish are descendants of > inter-marriage between African-Americans and Irish. If you go into the 1870 > NYC census you'll find many marriages of Blacks and Irish; and this is only > a few years after the Draft Riots. > > regards > > m > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk > http://www.panix.com/~cassidy > > ============================== > Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp > Search over 2500 databases with one easy query!

In a message dated 3/26/01 10:31:02 AM, [email protected] writes: << My consternation is the fact that people in my area of the world keep saying that natural Irish hair color is red. >> My understanding is that the redheads and blonds are of Viking extraction. And the Vikings only came to Ireland circa 800.

How does intermarriage between blacks and Irish in America affect dark hair colour over in Ireland? The Irish had black hair long before the 1500's. Neither the intermarriage of races nor even the Spanish are of sufficient explanation. The "Black Irish" is probably an urban legend of sorts as the most of Europe have mixed roots (pun not intended) and gives rise to different hair colours and features. My consternation is the fact that people in my area of the world keep saying that natural Irish hair color is red. When I was there the last few times in Ireland, I only saw two red-haired people. The most I saw was the dark colored (brown and black) and then the various blondes. So "Black Irish" has no real meaning by way of race. The only topic I have never really seen is a discussion of how much the Dutch (Friesland and Holland) merchant traders had an effect on the culture in Ireland. They were there in the early 1500's. I have a few in my tree and I believe they reached Fermanagh a couple of times. Regards, Phil

Excerpts from :The Stem of The Irish Nation by John O'Hart. Also known as :" Irish Pedigrees" Starting on page 44; 001. Adam 002. Seth 003. Enos 004. Cainan 005. Mahalaleel 006. Jared 007. Enoch 008. Methuselah 009. Lamech 010. Noah 011. Japhet 012. Magog 013. Baoth 014. Phoeniusa Farsaidh (Fenius Farsa) 015. Niul 016. Gaodhal ( or Gathelus) 017. Asruth, in Eqypt 018. Sruth 019. Heber Scut, to Scythia 020. Beouman 021. Ogaman 022. Tait 023. Agnon 024. Lamhfionn, to Gothia (Lybia) 025. Heber Glunnfionn 026. Agnan Fionn 027. Febric Glas 028. Nenuall 029. Muadhad 030. Alladh 031. Arcadh 032. Deag 033. Brath, to Galacia in north of Spain 034. Breoghan (or Brigus). was king of Galacia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile and Portugal. 035. Bile 036. Milesius of Spain ( aka Galamh) See "Song of Inisfail" by THomas Moore. 037. Heremon: 7th son; From him are descended the Kings, Nobility, and Gentry of the Kingdoms of Connaught, Dalriada, Leinster, Meath, Orgiall, Ossory; of Scotland, since the 5th century; of Ulster, since the 4th century; and of England, from the reign of King Henry II., down to present time. 038. Irial Faidh, died 1670 BC 039. Eithrial 040. Foll-Aich 041. Tigernmas 042. Enboath 043. Smiomghall 044. Fiacha Labrainn, died 1488 BC 045. Aongus Olmucach 046. Main 047. Rotheachtach 048. Dein 049. Siorna 050. Olioll Aolcheoin 051. Gialchadh 052. Nuadhas Fionnfail 053. Aedan Glas 054. Simeon Breac 055. Muredach Bolgach 056. Fiacha Tolgrach 057. Duach Ladhrach 058. Eochaidh Buadhach 059. Ugaine Mor 060. Colethach Caol-bhreagh 061. Melg Molbthach 062. Iran Gleofathach 063. Conla Caomh 064. Olioll Cas-fiachlach 065. Eochaidh Aol-Leathan 066. Aongus ( or Aeneas) 067. Enna Aigneach 068. Assaman Eamhna 069. Roighen Ruadh 070. Fionnlogh 071. Fionn 072. Eochaidh Feidlioch 073. Bress-Nar-Lothar, The Fineamhnas(Triplets_ 074. Lughaidh Sriabh-n Dearg 075. Crimthann-Naidh-Nar 076. Feredach Fionn-Feachrnach 077. Fiacha Fionn Ola 078. Tuathal Teachtmar 079. Fedhlimidh Rachtmar, died 119 AD 080. Conn Ceadcathach( Conn of One Hundred Battles) 081. Art Eanfhear >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, Portugal. ect. The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the Irish Genes.

At 6:03 PM -0500 3/25/01, Mary McGinnis wrote: >The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article >on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on >the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled >"O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish >were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from the spanish has been debunked. The only true Black Irish are descendants of inter-marriage between African-Americans and Irish. If you go into the 1870 NYC census you'll find many marriages of Blacks and Irish; and this is only a few years after the Draft Riots. regards m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

Magheraveely: a village in teh townland of Uttony on the south central border of civil parish of Clones to Galloon. It is triangular in shape, with the townlands of Gowny on the west, Knocks and Gortinure on the north, Corraclare on the east and Mahgherareagh in Galloon on the south. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 11:02 AM Subject: Help Needed > Hi Listmenbers, > > I have found my GGGGrandparents names (that was a chore in in itself) who > came from Fermanagh. Someone was nice enough to tell me that the Maraville > on the record may be Maghervilly........for Michael O'Donnell and Margaret > Howe. Date of record 1849, both deceased at the time. One of their children > born 1820s. > > I have checked Fermanagh Gold and don't come up with much. Can anyone offer > suggestions on what to do now? > > Thanks, > Chris > > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog > >

There is a MAGHERAVEELEY in Fermanagh. It is close to the Clones Border and the local churches are Aghdrumsee C of I and St Macartans at Drumswords Catholic. Maureen

The magazine ,"Ireland of the Welcomes", has just run its second article on the Spanish in the Republic. I have followed earlier discussions on the "Black Irish". The following are exerpts from the article entitled "O'NEILL and O'DONNELL on the march". This will show that the Spanish were in Ireland amd had contact with the northern cheiftans. "The Battle of Kinsale in 1601, when the gallant Northern earls, O'NEILL and O'DONNELL, fighting side by side with their Spanish allies, lost to the English. It was as a result of that battle that the English Crown decided to take permanent steps to ensure nothing similar happened again, and drew up plans for the wholesale plantation of Ulster with Scots lowlanders." "Duneill Castle, Dromore West, Co. Sligo, of Red Hugh O'DONNELL's last Christmas in his native land. It was here that O'DONNELL sighted five Spanish ships off the coast on their way to Killary Harbour, and signalled them to join him at Killybegs instead, so that plans could be made of Spanish assistance later in the year in a final attempt to rid Ireland of its conquerors. "O'DONNELL was the only one of the chieftans that knew anything about the sea," explains John THUILLER, a local historian who has made the study of this period in Irish history his life's work. "Of course neither he nor O'NEILL ever intended the Spaniards to come into Kinsale. That was absolutely the last place they wanted them to land. The Spanish fleet should have sailed up to the north west, and met up with the Irish chieftains there."" As seen in the historical context, the Spainish were allies with the Irish. To be an ally there had to be contact with them, so in this light it would appear that the Spanish were in Ireland and possibly intermarried with the Irish. (nothing like a man in uniform!) ;-) Mary McG in Tennessee

Hi Buddy, There's another associated boundary issue that's bothered me a little, or at least, will till I hear an explanation. Kinawley parish, for example, seems to show up both in Fermanagh and in Cavan. Are those two parishes, or one that used to (or maybe does despite the modern border line) cross over the county boundary and have lands in both counties? Crawford. On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Pbuddyf wrote: > The bounderies of parishes are always bounderies of townlands; that is > to say, one townland cannot be contained in two parishes; It sometimes > happens that an estate may lie on both sides of the boundery of a parish, > and that the townland in each parish is called by the same name, and is > considered to be one townland, but in such cases I have always divided teh > townland, and added the word (Upper or Lower, East or West) to the original > name, to serve to distinguish them. > As each parish will be seperately assessed, it is necesary that no confusion > should arise as to the bounderies of any denomination or division belonging > to it, consequently in all cases the boundery of a parish must likewise be > the boundery of a townland as far as that parish or the > county asessment is concerned. > > This statement clears up a mis-understanding of of seperate places/townlands > named upper/lower, east/west. IE.,; one townland, one parish, but in > different estates for tax purposes. > > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com > 73 de Crawford WA3ZKZ, VP8CMY, ex G4ARR [email protected] "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon

Hi Listmenbers, I have found my GGGGrandparents names (that was a chore in in itself) who came from Fermanagh. Someone was nice enough to tell me that the Maraville on the record may be Maghervilly........for Michael O'Donnell and Margaret Howe. Date of record 1849, both deceased at the time. One of their children born 1820s. I have checked Fermanagh Gold and don't come up with much. Can anyone offer suggestions on what to do now? Thanks, Chris