Hi Pbuddyf, I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Pbuddyf [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 9:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair Excerpts from :The Stem of The Irish Nation by John O'Hart. Also known as :" Irish Pedigrees" Starting on page 44; 001. Adam 002. Seth 003. Enos 004. Cainan 005. Mahalaleel 006. Jared 007. Enoch 008. Methuselah 009. Lamech 010. Noah 011. Japhet 012. Magog 013. Baoth 014. Phoeniusa Farsaidh (Fenius Farsa) 015. Niul 016. Gaodhal ( or Gathelus) 017. Asruth, in Eqypt 018. Sruth 019. Heber Scut, to Scythia 020. Beouman 021. Ogaman 022. Tait 023. Agnon 024. Lamhfionn, to Gothia (Lybia) 025. Heber Glunnfionn 026. Agnan Fionn 027. Febric Glas 028. Nenuall 029. Muadhad 030. Alladh 031. Arcadh 032. Deag 033. Brath, to Galacia in north of Spain 034. Breoghan (or Brigus). was king of Galacia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile and Portugal. 035. Bile 036. Milesius of Spain ( aka Galamh) See "Song of Inisfail" by THomas Moore. 037. Heremon: 7th son; From him are descended the Kings, Nobility, and Gentry of the Kingdoms of Connaught, Dalriada, Leinster, Meath, Orgiall, Ossory; of Scotland, since the 5th century; of Ulster, since the 4th century; and of England, from the reign of King Henry II., down to present time. 038. Irial Faidh, died 1670 BC 039. Eithrial 040. Foll-Aich 041. Tigernmas 042. Enboath 043. Smiomghall 044. Fiacha Labrainn, died 1488 BC 045. Aongus Olmucach 046. Main 047. Rotheachtach 048. Dein 049. Siorna 050. Olioll Aolcheoin 051. Gialchadh 052. Nuadhas Fionnfail 053. Aedan Glas 054. Simeon Breac 055. Muredach Bolgach 056. Fiacha Tolgrach 057. Duach Ladhrach 058. Eochaidh Buadhach 059. Ugaine Mor 060. Colethach Caol-bhreagh 061. Melg Molbthach 062. Iran Gleofathach 063. Conla Caomh 064. Olioll Cas-fiachlach 065. Eochaidh Aol-Leathan 066. Aongus ( or Aeneas) 067. Enna Aigneach 068. Assaman Eamhna 069. Roighen Ruadh 070. Fionnlogh 071. Fionn 072. Eochaidh Feidlioch 073. Bress-Nar-Lothar, The Fineamhnas(Triplets_ 074. Lughaidh Sriabh-n Dearg 075. Crimthann-Naidh-Nar 076. Feredach Fionn-Feachrnach 077. Fiacha Fionn Ola 078. Tuathal Teachtmar 079. Fedhlimidh Rachtmar, died 119 AD 080. Conn Ceadcathach( Conn of One Hundred Battles) 081. Art Eanfhear >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, Portugal. ect. The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the Irish Genes. ============================== Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com

The Celtic background is dealt with quite neatly in "The Pagan Celts" by A. Ross. ISBN 0-7134552-7-6, published by Batsford in 1970 and updated in 1986. The chapter headings (just abbreviated slightly) are Early Celtic World Orgnaization of Celtic Society Dwellings, Denence and Warfare Stock, Crops and Food Production Social Background of Celtic Life Law, Learning and Literature The World of the Spirit Art and Adornment Well illustrated in the 1986 edition. I enjoyed it very much. Covers about 700 BC to 500 AD. Crawford. On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Michael Cassidy wrote: > At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: > >Hi Pbuddyf, > > > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the > >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that > >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian > >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are > >unbelievably similiar to Irish ones. > > Maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. > "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon

Hi lMark, What do you need to know? have you anything to go on. The present Bishop of Clogher Diocese is Bishop Duffy and it is a well known name in the Catholic Church going back to the 16th Century. However notice the different spelling. I have had a quick glance at my old School, which is in Enniskillen, and the name Duffy appears on a regular basis in the class lists going back to 1909. Edward Duffy was the owner of the Erne Packet in the 1840's the first Fermanagh Newspaper which was later incorporated with the Fermanagh Mail and finally with the Impartial Reporter Maureen

At 5:28 PM -0500 3/27/01, [email protected] wrote: >In a message dated 3/27/01 5:17:56 PM, [email protected] writes: > ><< My dad had red hair; mom brown; me blond. I dont know if anyone has done a >study t dtermine if hair color comes from one side or the other or both. >Baldness comes from the female side. > >> > >I think red hair may be a recessive gene, if that is so, you'd need to have >it on "both sides of the house." Now we're getting into gene-eology, I >guess. ;-) >Janet I'd love to have the money to do a genetic comparison of various Cassidy, OBrien, McAree lines. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

In a message dated 3/27/01 5:25:09 PM, [email protected] writes: << can anyone tell me where and what this place is? I have searched proni and several other sites but can't find it. It is listed as the address on a marriage record from Benmore Parish of Innishmacsaint. The bride was from Tully and the groom from Drummeron >> Is the original in handwriting? Perhaps it is the townland of Drumnasreane, a townland of 521 acres in parish of Inishmacsaint. Put in "drum", Inishmacsaint for parish and Fermanagh for county at www.seanruad.com. You'll get a list of possibles. Drumnasreane is one. Drumcrowe another--it is quite near Tully. Janet C-S

In a message dated 3/27/01 5:17:56 PM, [email protected] writes: << My dad had red hair; mom brown; me blond. I dont know if anyone has done a study t dtermine if hair color comes from one side or the other or both. Baldness comes from the female side. >> I think red hair may be a recessive gene, if that is so, you'd need to have it on "both sides of the house." Now we're getting into gene-eology, I guess. ;-) Janet

At 4:00 PM -0500 3/27/01, rodreb wrote: >My Irish ancestors came over from Fermanagh to USA in 1830, James & Jane >(Keys) Robinson. His son, my line, had red hair and beard, so I'm assuming >he (or Jane Keys, her mother was a Johnston) did too. Consequently, all us >Robinsons in this line have red/auburn hair, including me.. don't know where >it came from, and those are English sounding surnames, so don't know about >that either! I always just assumed many irish did have red hair, it's what >you always hear and it's true in my family anyway. My dad had red hair; mom brown; me blond. I dont know if anyone has done a study t dtermine if hair color comes from one side or the other or both. Baldness comes from the female side. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

In a message dated 3/27/01 3:58:57 PM, [email protected] writes: << One wonders though if there was a division between what Catholics were allowed to sell; and what Protestants sold. >> An interesting question. If so, it would probably depend on the timeframe. Bud's quote from Livingstone's Fermanagh story does not include a date for the list of merchants given. Lowe's Directory (1880) lists merchants by trade and surname, but does not note what religion each merchant professed (though some may be guessed at from names "typically" belonging to one group or the other.) There doesn't seem to be any clear cut division. Janet C-S

My Irish ancestors came over from Fermanagh to USA in 1830, James & Jane (Keys) Robinson. His son, my line, had red hair and beard, so I'm assuming he (or Jane Keys, her mother was a Johnston) did too. Consequently, all us Robinsons in this line have red/auburn hair, including me.. don't know where it came from, and those are English sounding surnames, so don't know about that either! I always just assumed many irish did have red hair, it's what you always hear and it's true in my family anyway. Debra (Robinson) Short ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casey <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:18 AM Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair > Hi Michael, > > You must have taken me up wrong. > > My position was not "that dark hair and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish > sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast." > > My position was two fold: > 1) That, yes, some sailors survived the armada sinking and had children in > Ireland. > 2) that your assertion that "The myth that the trait of black hair and dark > eyes in some Irish come from the spanish has been debunked." is "not > entirely true." > > There is documentary evidence for point 1. > > As for point 2. There have been spanish (as well as other peoples) here > since pre christian times. It is inconceivable that "some" Irish are not > descended from these and that "some" of them have a dark complexion from > their ancestors, just as some would have inherited their fair complexions > from the galician spanish peoples who sailed to Ireland in pre Patrick times > if not pre christian times. Also I pointed out that very few Irish are red > haired, and that the celts were thought to be dark. I also pointed out > "There was however some contact between Spaniards, Portuguese and North > Africans over many hundreds of years prior to that." > > The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the Irish race is the > result of many peoples mixing together over the millenia and that "some" > Irish had to have inherited their individual" dark complexion" from the > spanish. Just as some had to have inherited their individual "dark > complexion" from the North Africans.I also pointed out that I knew a > particular family (two groups) who are documented to be directly descended > from ONE Spanish Armada Survivor and that they have most definitely retained > the surname, and unmistakable spanish traits. > > I'm sure many Irish have inherited dark complexions from African Americans > but to claim that that is the only source of dark complexions in Irish > people is, it seems to me, extremely unlikely. Our written and oral > histories talk of "fir ghoirm" and people of dark complexion for hundreds of > years if not thousands of years prior to the rediscovery of america. > > Regards > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:40 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair > > > At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: > >Hi Pbuddyf, > > > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the > >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that > >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian > >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are > >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. > > maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. > > > >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > > > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. > >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, > >Portugal. ect. > > > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the > >Irish Genes. > > > did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or > did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark > haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? > > communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and > black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired > groups as they moved through europe. > > however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark > hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold > waters off the irish coast. > > m > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk > http://www.panix.com/~cassidy > > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >

Your spelling is Drummeron. I found a Drummaram, also listed as Drumaran, a townland in the religious parish of Cleenish. LOCATION: south of Gortahurk West. east of Carrickabweehan & Drumconlan West. West of Mullaghdun. North of Correteskin Located in The Book of Ulster Diosces, page 15 Benmore is a place, not a townland, is in the civil parish of Inishmacsaint, but religious parish of Botha. The list of names in now in the Fermangh Gold site as I gave my entire list of Fermanagh place names to her recently. The list included 5, 375 place names in Fermanagh county.

At 8:17 PM -0500 3/27/01, Thomas Dunn wrote: >Hi Folks, > Perhaps an understanding of history would suggest -- each community had >it's own customers. > Regards > Tom Dunn > >>Did the Catholics and Protestants sell different items? >>m One wonders though if there was a division between what Catholics were allowed to sell; and whar Protestants sold. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

At 10:09 AM -0800 3/27/01, Pbuddyf wrote: >FROM: The Fermanagh Story by Peadar Livingstone. > >An except from his book on Fermanagh, page 402, copied as printed, and >submitted to aid families in their research of families. > >Enniskillen maintained its position as a great shopping centre during the >century. The principal business people were: >Protestants; Whitleys, Gordons, Carsons, Verners, Lemons, Bradshaws, >Darraghs, Robinsons, Arthurs, Plunketts, Copelands, McKeagues, Robertts, >Teeles, Blacks, Morrisons, Gunnings and Dundas. >Catholics; Jimmy O'Brien in East Bridge street, Mickey Fox, James Baker, >Matthew McDonnell, Thomas Carroll, Thomas McCourt, Thomas McElroy, John ><aguire, John Martin, Edward Monaghan, The three Bradys, J Moyneaux, T >ingoldsby, D Donnelly, J Harrsion, P McGinn, Widow Maguire, John Kerr, Jamie >Graham and James Creden Did the Catholics and Protestants sell different items? m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: >Hi Pbuddyf, > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, >Portugal. ect. > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the >Irish Genes. did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired groups as they moved through europe. however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

Does anybody know anything about the last name Duffey most likely stemming from the Fermanagh area?

A bit of levity on all the 'Black Irish' etc arguments. To pay through the nose refers to a nose tax supposedly imposed by the Vikings on the Irish. It was called ' Nose Tax' because those who refused to pay had their noses slit with a knife. Maureen

Duffy: ( O'Dufaigh) There were 198 Duffys on teh voters register in 1968. Some are from the clan in co Monaghan. Those living along Lower Lough Erne are descended from teh Ui Bruinin Breffny Duffys. The MOnaghan Duffys had their centre at Teallach Gealacain in the parish of Clontibret. The Fermanagh Duffys came from Breffny to live at Baile Ui Dhubhthaighm near Belleek. This latter clan were represented on the 1796 freeholders lists by Terence, Laurence, Patrick, Bernard, Michael, Owen, Murtagh and Denis, all from the Parish of Inishmacsaint.

FROM: The Fermanagh Story by Peadar Livingstone. An except from his book on Fermanagh, page 402, copied as printed, and submitted to aid families in their research of families. Enniskillen maintained its position as a great shopping centre during the century. The principal business people were: Protestants; Whitleys, Gordons, Carsons, Verners, Lemons, Bradshaws, Darraghs, Robinsons, Arthurs, Plunketts, Copelands, McKeagues, Robertts, Teeles, Blacks, Morrisons, Gunnings and Dundas. Catholics; Jimmy O'Brien in East Bridge street, Mickey Fox, James Baker, Matthew McDonnell, Thomas Carroll, Thomas McCourt, Thomas McElroy, John <aguire, John Martin, Edward Monaghan, The three Bradys, J Moyneaux, T ingoldsby, D Donnelly, J Harrsion, P McGinn, Widow Maguire, John Kerr, Jamie Graham and James Creden

Hi Group I have been given some information pertaining to Irvine relatives in Ireland which leads me to believe there is a relationship - James Irvine of Toogong,NSW Australia in his will [died 22.12.1924] left shares to his neice [ Ann Isabella Barton who married George Hamilton ] and her children but if she remained childless then to the children of JOHN IRVINE, late of "Letter" in the County of Fermanagh, Ireland. A solicitors letter stated "We understand and we are informed that the children of the late John Irvine who are thus contingently entitled are WILLIAM JAMES IRVINE,MARGARET ANNE IRVINE, JOHN HENRY IRVINE, SARAH ENA IRVINE and FANNY ELIZABETH IRVINE, and we understand they are all resident in Ireland." Obviously John Irvine was dead before 1924. I would love to exchange information with any of the descendants of the the above children. This is the first positive lead I have to connect with rels in Ireland Lynne from Orange NSW. Lynne H Irvine

I have never received so much mail on any item then when I have asked for help recently about John's address. It reminds us all about that one parable;" Cast your bread upon the water and it will return a thousand fold". There were so many replies that I must resort to thanking you as a group, a group of friends that I have found on the Fermanagh site. It restores your faith in human nature that there are those on the web who also give as well as receive. I thank each and every one of you , sincerly.

Hi Michael, You do say "The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes insome Irish come from the spanish has been debunked." Again I say this is not true. Some Irish have Spanish descendents. Some Irish have descendents who were survivors of the Armada. As for water temperature, Ireland has the warmest water temperature of any of the Northern European Countries, because of the Gulf Stream, and for example two ships from the armada were wrecked less than 200 meters from low tide mark off the Sligo Coast in a shallow bay. A number of these sailors survived, had children and some of the locals were tried for treason when it was found they helped the Spaniards. Their death sentences were eventually commuted on humanitarian grounds. All this is well documented in contemporary records and newspapers. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 10:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Ref. : Re: Spaniards in Ireland/Black Irish At 5:25 PM +0200 3/26/01, [email protected] wrote: > Michael, > > I have seen arguments in both directions on this subject but I have >yet to see anyone arrogant enough to say from his high horse in the 21st >century that there has NEVER been ANY intermarriage / intermingling >between the the Irish and the Spanish. Actually if you read the post I never said the there were no intermarriage between Irish the Spanish; though I'd be real surprised considering the temperture of the water that many sailors survived the sinking. Definately, no where near enough to explain black hair and eyes in Ireland, IF in fact the Irish/Celtics were as fair as you all are presuming. At 10:24 AM -0500 3/26/01, [email protected] wrote: >How does intermarriage between blacks and Irish in America affect dark hair >colour over in Ireland? The Irish had black hair long before the 1500's. >Neither the intermarriage of races nor even the Spanish are of sufficient >explanation. Actually, if I presume anything its that black hair and eyes are pretty much spread through all groups of humans; and as a dominate trait will frequently appear. In other words there is no need to explain dark hair and eyes they are normal. My understanding is that there were several migrations of Celtics into Europe and some going through the north of Africa. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB