re: Bud's list of some gravestone inscriptions Several of the gravestone inscriptions were printed in the Clogher Record. That journal is published by the Clogher Hostorical Society. Some back issues are available. See: http://www.clogherhistoricalsoc.com/ Janet C-S

Thomas and listers: Well we certainly have gotten more milage out of hair color than a Hollywood hair stylist..Now I have to dig out my version of Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic Wars. Of course the question is "can I still read it?" Or have I slipped back into my native language--Broken English? I hope nobody starts quoting Virgil for I'll be a dead duck since I lost my Trot to the Anead. I think what we know is that any form of stereotyping is inaccurate at best; at worst it stultifys learning. Learning and sharing knowledge are what all these e-mail lists are about, even if at times we relate as if we were driving an SUV or Pickup Truck on the inter-state. Celts, Vikings, Normans, Flat Lander Scots and of course the Brits, what a Malange! Lets see what else we can find together, synergy is great stuff. Sincerely, Bill Golden, [email protected] [email protected] wrote: > Some added details on Vercingetorix. > > Vercingetorix was a Celt, leader of the Arverni, who federated the > celtic tribes in Gaul in a rebellion against Rome and defeated Cesar's > legions at Gercovian, before finally surrending himself to Caesar to end > the siege of Alesia (near Dijon) 2 years later. > A movie was made of his life this past year in France, with Christophe > Lambert (Highlander) in the title role. I don't know if is a dubbed or > translated version in English. > His father Celtill as leader of the Arverni, defied Rome and was > betrayed by his own brother. Celtill was burned alive in a public execution > in front of his young son. When he grew up, he venged his father and > realized his father's dream to reunite the celtic tribes against Rome. > > Vercingetorix is the French equivalent of William Wallace > (Braveheart). He sacrificed himself for the unity of Gaul. > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Some added details on Vercingetorix. Vercingetorix was a Celt, leader of the Arverni, who federated the celtic tribes in Gaul in a rebellion against Rome and defeated Cesar's legions at Gercovian, before finally surrending himself to Caesar to end the siege of Alesia (near Dijon) 2 years later. A movie was made of his life this past year in France, with Christophe Lambert (Highlander) in the title role. I don't know if is a dubbed or translated version in English. His father Celtill as leader of the Arverni, defied Rome and was betrayed by his own brother. Celtill was burned alive in a public execution in front of his young son. When he grew up, he venged his father and realized his father's dream to reunite the celtic tribes against Rome. Vercingetorix is the French equivalent of William Wallace (Braveheart). He sacrificed himself for the unity of Gaul.

> County Fermanagh: > Aghalurcher: Clogher Record, Vol II, NO. 2, 1958. > > Aghaven: Clogher Record,Vol IV, Nos. I & 2, 1960. > > Devenish: St.Molaise's and Devenish Abbey; Devenish, its History, > Antiquities and Traditions, by Rev.J.E.MacKenna and F.J.Bigger, 1897. > > Donagh: Clogher Record, Vol 1, No. 3, 1955 > > Drumully: Clogher Record, Vol X, No 2, 1954 > > Enniskillen, Enniskillen Parish & Town, by W.H.Dundas, 1913 > > Galloon: Clogher Record, Vol X, No 2, 1980 > > Holywell: Clogher Record, Vol II, No 4, 1957 > > Kinawley: Clogher Record, Vol I, No 4, 1956 > > Monea: The Parsih of Devenish, Co, Fermanagh, by Rev.William B.Steele, 1937 > > Templenafrin: Clogher Record, Vol II, No 1, 1957 > > Tullymageeran: Clogher Record, Vol II, No 3, > 1959 > > Hope this helps someone. AND, NO, I do not know where to get them. This is > from a list in a book. > > > > > >

Buddy and Group, My husband and I were looking at our books - "A Guide to Irish Roots and The Irish who Came to America by Bill and Mary Durning and he said I am going to make a copy of "A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair" and put it in our books. Just what we needed to complete the information. Thanks, Ollie and Joyce

Excerpts from :The Stem of The Irish Nation by John O'Hart. Also known as > :" Irish Pedigrees" > > Starting on page 44; > 001. Adam > 002. Seth > 003. Enos > 004. Cainan > 005. Mahalaleel > 006. Jared > 007. Enoch > 008. Methuselah > 009. Lamech > 010. Noah > 011. Japhet > 012. Magog > 013. Baoth > 014. Phoeniusa Farsaidh (Fenius Farsa) > 015. Niul > 016. Gaodhal ( or Gathelus) > 017. Asruth, in Eqypt > 018. Sruth > 019. Heber Scut, to Scythia > 020. Beouman > 021. Ogaman > 022. Tait > 023. Agnon > 024. Lamhfionn, to Gothia (Lybia) > 025. Heber Glunnfionn > 026. Agnan Fionn > 027. Febric Glas > 028. Nenuall > 029. Muadhad > 030. Alladh > 031. Arcadh > 032. Deag > 033. Brath, to Galacia in north of Spain > 034. Breoghan (or Brigus). was king of Galacia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile > and Portugal. > 035. Bile > 036. Milesius of Spain ( aka Galamh) See "Song of Inisfail" by THomas Moore. > 037. Heremon: 7th son; From him are descended the Kings, Nobility, and Gentry of the Kingdoms of Connaught, Dalriada, Leinster, Meath, Orgiall, Ossory; of Scotland, since the 5th century; of Ulster, since the 4th century; and of England, from the reign of King Henry II., down to present time. > 038. Irial Faidh, died 1670 BC > 039. Eithrial > 040. Foll-Aich,(Follach) > 041. Tigernmas,(Tighernmas) > 042. Enboath,(Inboith) > 043. Smiomghall,(Semroth) > 044. Fiacha Labrainn(Labhrainne), died 1488 BC > 045. Aongus Olmucach,(Aengus Olmucadh) > 046. Main(Maen) > 047. Rotheachtach(Roitheachtaigh) > 048. Dein(Dian) > 049. Siorna(Sirna) Saoghlach > 050. Olioll Aolcheoin(Olild Ollchain) > 051. Gialchadh(Giallchaidh) > 052. Nuadhas Fionnfail(Nuadhat Finnfail) > 053. Aedan Glas(Aedahn Glas) > 054. Simeon Breac > 055. Muredach Bolgach(Muiredach Bolgrach) > 056. Fiacha Tolgrach(Fiacha Tolgrach) > 057. Duach Ladhrach(Duach Ladhgrach) > 058. Eochaidh Buadhach > 059. Ugaine Mor, married Caesair(Kesair) > 060. Colethach Caol-bhreagh(Cobhtach Cael Braegh) > 061. Melg Molbthach(Melghe Molbhthach) > 062. Iran Gleofathach(Iaran/Irereo Gleofathach) > 063. Conla Caomh(Connla Caemh) > 064. Olioll Cas-fiachlach(Oilioll Caisfhiaclach) > 065. Eochaidh Aol-Leathan(Eochaidh Ailthleathan) > 066. Aongus (Aenas/Aengus Tuirmeach/Teamrach) > 067. Enna Aigneach(Enna Aighneach) > 068. Assaman Eamhna(Esamhain of Emhain) > 069. Roighen Ruadh(Roighnen Ruadh) > 070. Fionnlogh(Finnlogha) > 071. Fionn of Eamhin, married Benia > 072. Eochaidh Feidlioch, married Clothfionn > 073. Bress-Nar-Lothar,(The Fieneamhas) > 074. Lughaidh Sriabh-n Dearg, m/Dearborguill. > 075. Crimthann-Naidh-Nar,m/Nar-Tath-Choach. > 076. Feredach Fionn-Feachrnach(Feachtnach) > 077. Fiacha Fionn Ola, married Eithne. > 078. Tuathal Teachtmar, married Baine > 079. Fedhlimidh Rachtmar, died 119 AD, married Ughna of Denmark. > 080. Conn Ceadcathach( Conn of One Hundred Battles) > 081. Art Eanfhear(Aeinfer) 082. Cormac Ulfhada, married Ethni Ollamda 083. Cairbre-Lifeachar 084. Fiacha Srabhteine, married Aiofe. 085. Muireadach Tireach 086. Eochaidh Muigh-Meadhoin, married Carinna. 087. Niall of the Nine Hostages , married Roighnech 088. Cairbre of Ulster 089. Cormac Caoch, married Comaein. 090. Tuathal Maolgarbh. 091, Cormac, of Fermanagh 092. Donall Dun 093. Flann, of Fermanagh 094. Maolruanaidh, of Fermanagh 095. Maloachi, of Fermanagh 096. Lochlann 097. Ardgha(Ardghal) 098. Longseach 099. Flannagan, of Fermanagh 100. Padraic 101. Brian 102. Donall an-Fhiona 103. Hugh 104. Dermod 105. Cormac an Neach 106. Aodh 107. Dermod Balbh 108. Brian 109. Cormac 110. Murtog(Murtogh) 111. Giollaiosa Ruadh 112. Cormac 113. Giollabrighid 114. Manus 115. Padraic 116. Hugh 117 Murtough 118. Giolla (William) O'Flanagan, of Tuath Ratha. This is why I am into genealogy. The information is out there. You have to keep looking.

One has to be careful in reading Caesar's Gallic Wars. Like most historicl writers, Julius had a tendency to be somewhat self-serving in his writings, using the writings to enhance his prestige as a general and leader of men. In his Germanic campaigns he describes Vercingetorix and his soldiers (Celts mostly) as great, tall men next to his shorter legionnaires. The bigger (in always) the enemy the bigger the victory, and the greater the status of the general. The short and squat Spanish soldiers facing Julius Caesar might not have been Celts but merely native Spanish tribesmen. Sincerely, Bill Golden PS: Julius Caesar never mentions the fact that he brought Vercingetorix to Rome, chained to the back of his chariot, threw him into a dungeon, and let him starve to death. This was not a nice thing, rather petty I'd say Bill Golden > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

Maureen: This nose slitting is quite interesting and probably very effective. Will Little G.W. instruct our beloved US Infernal Revenue Service to institute this practice on us low life middle class taxpayers? They (The IRS) do just about every thing else to get their dough from us. Sincerely, Bill Golden > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

At 6:17 PM -0500 3/27/01, Crawford MacKeand wrote: >The Celtic background is dealt with quite neatly in "The Pagan Celts" by >A. Ross. ISBN 0-7134552-7-6, published by Batsford in 1970 and updated in >1986. The chapter headings (just abbreviated slightly) are > >Early Celtic World >Orgnaization of Celtic Society >Dwellings, Denence and Warfare >Stock, Crops and Food Production >Social Background of Celtic Life >Law, Learning and Literature >The World of the Spirit >Art and Adornment > >Well illustrated in the 1986 edition. I enjoyed it very much. Covers about >700 BC to 500 AD. > >Crawford. > Great Jazz bands back then. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

Hello all Thanks to all who replied re the above - I think I have a greater understanding now! Jan

John Cunningham's email address is based on his grandfather's name. He was Adam Eves, a pub owner in the village of Ederney, County Fermanagh hence [email protected] John is of the opinion that his genealogical roots go back to the very, very beginning. Regards, JC (and what about these initials)

Hello list Can anyone point me to a definitive source explaining the different area measurements seen in Indentures? We have Irish plantation measure etc. I could do with an explanation of all the different measurements in use and then I'll put it on Fermanagh Gold - it sure would help me to understand some of the terminology and would be a useful reference Thanks Jan Fermanagh Gold http://www.fermanagh.org.uk

can anyone tell me where and what this place is? I have searched proni and several other sites but can't find it. It is listed as the address on a marriage record from Benmore Parish of Innishmacsaint. The bride was from Tully and the groom from Drummeron thanks Wendy

In a message dated 3/27/01 9:00:29 PM, [email protected] writes: << Benmore is a place, not a townland, is in the civil parish of Inishmacsaint, but religious parish of Botha. >> Hmmn--I don't think that's quite right, Bud. Which religion? Benmore is the location of the C of I church, in the civil and C of I parish of Inishmacsaint. Botha (now usually spelled Boho) used to be a C of I parish but was combined with the parish of Devenish in 1980-something. What was the parish of Botha is not very near Benmore, being instead on the otherside of the mountains, bordering on parish of Cleenish. Janet C-S

Hi Michael, You must have taken me up wrong. My position was not "that dark hair and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast." My position was two fold: 1) That, yes, some sailors survived the armada sinking and had children in Ireland. 2) that your assertion that "The myth that the trait of black hair and dark eyes in some Irish come from the spanish has been debunked." is "not entirely true." There is documentary evidence for point 1. As for point 2. There have been spanish (as well as other peoples) here since pre christian times. It is inconceivable that "some" Irish are not descended from these and that "some" of them have a dark complexion from their ancestors, just as some would have inherited their fair complexions from the galician spanish peoples who sailed to Ireland in pre Patrick times if not pre christian times. Also I pointed out that very few Irish are red haired, and that the celts were thought to be dark. I also pointed out "There was however some contact between Spaniards, Portuguese and North Africans over many hundreds of years prior to that." The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the Irish race is the result of many peoples mixing together over the millenia and that "some" Irish had to have inherited their individual" dark complexion" from the spanish. Just as some had to have inherited their individual "dark complexion" from the North Africans.I also pointed out that I knew a particular family (two groups) who are documented to be directly descended from ONE Spanish Armada Survivor and that they have most definitely retained the surname, and unmistakable spanish traits. I'm sure many Irish have inherited dark complexions from African Americans but to claim that that is the only source of dark complexions in Irish people is, it seems to me, extremely unlikely. Our written and oral histories talk of "fir ghoirm" and people of dark complexion for hundreds of years if not thousands of years prior to the rediscovery of america. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Michael Cassidy [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:40 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: A Bit of Irish History and Black Hair At 6:44 PM -0800 3/27/01, Michael Casey wrote: >Hi Pbuddyf, > >I don't know about the list you have there but if anyone ever visited the >Northwest of Spain, La Coruna in particular, they would see that >communication between the Irish and Spaniards go back to pre christian >times. Ogham stones and other celtic artifacts abound there and are >unbelievacbly similiar to Irish ones. maybe this was the celtic tribe wrking they way up from africa. >From here on it really splits up to different tribes, clans, ect. > >Genealogy deals with pedigrees and relations. >Geography deals with locations. Notice the references to Spain, Castile, >Portugal. ect. > >The list above sure does indicate where the dark hair comes from in the >Irish Genes. did you both do genetic testing on these people or do you have pictures? or did you just assume all people in living in what we call Spain were dark haired and dark eyed and all celtics were blond/red haired with blue eyes? communication? i guess there was no communication between the celtics and black africans as they past through africa or with any european dark haired groups as they moved through europe. however, you both have shifted your positions which was orginally that dark hiar and eyes were caused by the 3 spanish sailors surviving the very cold waters off the irish coast. m ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jazz is freedom. - T. Monk http://www.panix.com/~cassidy

I believe the correct name for the church is the Church of Ireland, Inishmacsaint Parish, Church of St. Ninnidh at Benmore which was erected in 1831 on the site of a house owned by Mr. Dundas. The church is situated in the country. If you would like to view a beautiful picture of this Church at Benmore, visit www.tomdavidson.homestead.com/GoingHomePage.html Click on the Valerie Anderson story and then again on More Anderson Photos which were taken on our recent trip to Fermanagh in November. Valerie (McClelland) Anderson Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Hi Folks, Perhaps an understanding of history would suggest -- each community had it's own customers. Regards Tom Dunn >Did the Catholics and Protestants sell different items? >m

I hope this adds some understanding to this arguement. First of all the Western Tribes of the Celts were dark haired, Eastern and Northern Celts were lighter, mainly because of intermarraige with Germanic tribes. The Celtic tribes that settled Ireland came from the Western Celts, ergo the dark hair. Further colonization of Ireland by Vikings and Germanic Tribes from England added some variation to the theme, hence the lighter shades and the red heads. In Northern Spain today, you'll see the original settlers of Ireland, and they have some light haired people as well, as they mixed with Germanic Tribes. As you mentioned, the Romans had many people fighting in their army, most of their calvary were Eastern Celts and Germans.

Tradition say that the Celts that settled in Ireland came from Northern Spain. If you read Caesar's book on his battles with the Celts, you will see that the Western most Celts were dark and short.

It's interesting, my father, Maguire, married an American whose family was from Spain, La Corunna in fact. I visited them last year, and they have bagpipes and pantaloones that look like kilts. Nice people.