> > Hi Dick > > "Same Sex unions cannot produce offspring" > > Sorry but that is UTTER TRIPE At this point, you are coming on a little too strong. > > Using IVF (In Vitro fertilisation or Test Tube babies), both mixed sex and > same sex couples can produce a baby. > > Without going into legal, moral or religious arguments, surely a > genealogical (study of genes?) or Family History program has to hold FACTS? > > Whether a child had 2, 3 or 4 parents is surely somewhat irrelevant? > > I am English and born in Leeds, Yorkshire, England, I can only quote what I > see as the English law situation. I cannot quote any US or other law. > > If I had a lesbian or homosexual sibling (I do not in fact!) I would want > any self respecting Genealogical or FH program to reflect facts and life. > Pun intended <grin> If that sibling (pseudo) had a same sex partner and > produced a child by, say, IVF using the egg of one of the partners or from > both even, and that egg(s) was/were fertilised by a donor, what would you > want your favourite program to reflect those FACTS? > > Questions for you: > > 1) Is Family Origins vers. 10 a Genealogical program or a Family History > program? It is a genealogy program that meets the GEDCOM standards. These standards provide for facts not specifically related to genealogy. They do not provide all the additional facts for family history. > > 2) How would you in a few words distinguish the two types of programs? Family history would have many various types of facts dealing with neighbors, neighborhoods, close friendships, and activities. > > 3) Should Family Origins and its successor program reflect life as it is? It does and future programs will, but as related to blood lines and supplemental facts as defined by the genealogy standards via the GEDCOM specification. > > 4) Life is hard. Discuss! > > I know I jest in places here, but it is a serious subject and FO 10 should > allow me to input same sex partnerships and any offspring. > > My niece has had twin sons by IVF. In this case her husband is almost > certainly the father biological and legal. HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN. How > would you want Family Origins to reflect the possible doubt here? > > Family tree programs MUST not be allowed to moralise. They NEED IMHO to > reflect facts and possibly my perception of the percentage probability that > X is the father of Z. > > In the case of IVF (British inventions rule OK, dyslexia rules KO) only the > consultant and his staff MIGHT know the father's name. In the case of AID > the actual parents and the child might NEVER know the father's name. Same sex unions cannot produce offspring. It takes a male and female to create life regardless of the method. Take the example of a female plus an unidentified male donor. She is the mother and he is the father. No exceptions. That he is unidentified is not diminishing the fact he is the father. The method of impregnation is only a note to the birth fact. Add the female's other partner as a second "mother" or "father" as gender dictates. Use the notes to explain or clarify as necessary. > > Such is life. > > I want my fave program to reflect actuality, not throw up its hands and > crash or fail to obey my wishes. > > Kind regards > > Phil. Warn

I have read enough on the subject of same sex marriages! If anyone persists with it. PRO or CON, I WILL withdraw his posting privileges for a length of time determined by me. No one is going to change anyone else's opinions on the subject by hurling insults anyway. Alfred D. Eller RootsMate-Users mail list administrator. ============================

>> "Same Sex unions cannot produce offspring" >> >> Sorry but that is UTTER TRIPE It is? Please explain how a same sex couple can produce a child. It is (so far) physiologically impossible. >> Using IVF (In Vitro fertilisation or Test Tube babies), both mixed >> sex and same sex couples can produce a baby. False. The only way (so far) to produce a baby is by fertilizing an egg with a sperm. Since a man is still required to produce a sperm and a female is required to produce an egg, only a male/female couple can produce offspring. >> Whether a child had 2, 3 or 4 parents is surely somewhat irrelevant? EVERY child has precisely two parents - one male and one female. Everything else is a footnote. >> I am English and born in Leeds, Yorkshire, England, I can only quote >> what I see as the English law situation. I cannot quote any US or >> other law. Laws are made by man; children are made by God and his tools are a man and a woman. >> If I had a lesbian or homosexual sibling (I do not in fact!) I would >> want any self respecting Genealogical or FH program to reflect facts >> and life. Pun intended <grin> If that sibling (pseudo) had a same >> sex partner and produced a child by, say, IVF using the egg of one >> of the partners or from both even, and that egg(s) was/were >> fertilised by a donor, what would you want your favourite program to >> reflect those FACTS? Only as a side-note. The donor and ONE of the same-sex partners are the parents. Where the donor is unknown, nothing but an empty space in the pedigree is appropriate. >> Questions for you: >> >> 1) Is Family Origins vers. 10 a Genealogical program or a Family >> History program? Yes. >> I know I jest in places here, but it is a serious subject and FO 10 >> should allow me to input same sex partnerships and any offspring. It will (as a note) but that doesn't change the fact that there are NO offspring of a same sex marriage. Only a child care arrangement. >> My niece has had twin sons by IVF. In this case her husband is almost >> certainly the father biological and legal. HE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN. >> How would you want Family Origins to reflect the possible doubt here? What doubt? Was he the sperm donor or was he not? Are you suggesting that the sperm of TWO men were mixed? Then the only way to determine who was the father is via DNA mapping. >> Family tree programs MUST not be allowed to moralise. They NEED IMHO >> to reflect facts and possibly my perception of the percentage >> probability that X is the father of Z. Programs don't moralize - people do. FO provides adequate flexibility for any circumstance. >> In the case of IVF (British inventions rule OK, dyslexia rules KO) >> only the consultant and his staff MIGHT know the father's name. In >> the case of AID the actual parents and the child might NEVER know >> the father's name. Yes? And? Known or unknown, there is still only ONE set of biological parents and if medicine/law prohibits the release of the natural father's name then dad's slot in the pedigree remains empty. >> I want my fave program to reflect actuality, not throw up its hands >> and crash or fail to obey my wishes. Reality (genealogy) is a mother and a father. All else (adoption, foster parents, ward of the court, etc.) is important historically and should be noted. It should not, however, be reflected in the pedigree since none are genealogical events. Fortunately, FOW knows the rules.